250Ti Jubilee happy unhappy

[filigran]

Hello JBL Lovers,

since one month my youth dream comes true: I´m an owner of a pair of 250Ti Jubilee. I love them. No WAF needle at all. At school days in my youth I heard the Original 250Ti in an HIFI exhibition in Düsseldorf (Germany) amplified with the extraorinary Harman Kardon Citation XX monster. They played fine songs and when listening to the climax drum solo from Saga ("a brief case") I got tears in my eyes. I swore myself that one day I will get these huge babies.

Well, I read in this forum quite a lot but still have some questions, perhaps Giskard is the right guru :applaud: to answer but I´m happy for any answers/suggestions/infos etc.

In my 250Ti Jubilee a (expensive! bought by my predecessor) network is used made completely by Mundorf (unbiased)wich gaves too little heights and middle, that I would like to compare once against the biased original (which I also get had of the salesman). There is a -4dB reduction for UHF and -2dB reduction for the HF, which I (hopefully) will change to +- 0 dB this weekend. And another failure was made in taking the wrong value for Resistor R6 (1Ohm instead of 9.1Ohm, how does this result "in the ear", giskard?)

I have read already almost all threads in the forum belonging to this and have some points in the original network schematics that perhaps are false? (e.g. the LE14H-1 with pos. (+) marking in the network schematic stands for "outward cone movement with pos. voltage to red input terminal". My LE14H-1 moves inward in this scenario!

I also read the JBL convention on polarity (for the old chassis), where black in JBL sense is always plus instead of black in the rest of the world. But at some time this was changed to agree with other manufacturers. But when?


The cabling for MidFrequency Chassis (MF) and woofer (Low frequency, LF) are made of "strip and tin" while the others uses male/female connectors to make sure not plugging wrong.
I know simply not certainly which cabling poles to chassis obtains the best results. A/B hearings are not easy but possibly (Phases switch to single chassis like Dr. Electron has told). Sometimes it´s the willing of the designer (G.T.) that single Chassis are plugged in reverse in order to minimize the joint area of frequency through phases rotation.

Who knows which cable connects to which port of any chassis connection originally?

Other hints/success moments? Assembly hint experiences? Questions?
All is wellcome. All listeners are wellcome to hear here...

Hope this text is not too long/too bad english or boring too much:blink:.
Pictures can be send if some wanted.
Thank you very much in advance and sincere greetings out of Ebringen (in Freiburg, D)

Mike. :bouncy:

[Earl K]

Hi filigran

- Welcome to the Forum !

Some Observations :

(a) About Capacitors ;

- It appears that you are blaming the lack of highs & mids on the use of Mundorf capacitors . Was that your intent ? ( or did I read your post wrong ? )
- Mundorf sells a few different models of capacitors . Which type/line do you have in your crossover ? ( A posted picture would be useful that shows these capacitors )

- It also seems that you are saying that because Mundorf caps are now present in your crossover , that you need to change the available choices for UHF padding . Is this interpretation correct ?

(b) About the woofer polarity as found in various 250(xx) models ;

- It appears that you doubt your modified crossovers have the original woofer polarity as intended by the designer(s) .

- Yes, getting the woofer polarity "wrong/backwards" can result in creating a sonic hole in the crossover region.

- It sounds like you have some network schematics for the 250(xx) .

- Do you have all the various 250(xx) schematics ?

- Have you compared the woofer polarities within these different schematics ?

- I suggest that you open up the speaker and make notes on the various colors of the wiring ( as found in your model ). Then post that info on "wire-colors" , here in this thread .

:)

[filigran]

Hello again,


Hi filigran

- Welcome to the Forum !

Some Observations :

(a) About Capacitors ;

- It appears that you are blaming the lack of highs & mids on the use of Mundorf capacitors . Was that your intent ? ( or did I read your post wrong ? )

No, I just said that the values used are so that the reduction is like I wrote, the info came from Mundorf direct, which were very helpful (esp. Mr. Ralf Schreiber) and send me a table which values for the "L-PAD"-Resistors gives which reduction. I said nothing about quality of mundorf caps! I don´t know since now if they were super or a waste of money...

- Mundorf sells a few different models of capacitors . Which type/line do you have in your crossover ? ( A posted picture would be useful that shows these capacitors )

There are some Supreme Caps and some MKP Audiophile Caps, picture will follow.


- It also seems that you are saying that because Mundorf caps are now present in your crossover , that you need to change the available choices for UHF padding . Is this interpretation correct ?

Yes, I will change the Resistors, when the shipment from Mundorf arrives, but perhaps I try first the original network.

(b) About the woofer polarity as found in various 250(xx) models ;

- It appears that you doubt your modified crossovers have the original woofer polarity as intended by the designer(s) .

- Yes, getting the woofer polarity "wrong/backwards" can result in creating a sonic hole in the crossover region.

- It sounds like you have some network schematics for the 250(xx) .

I have network schematics for N250TI, N250Ti BQ and 250Ti Jubilee and the modiefied (unbiased) Mundorf Jubilee version. Unfortunatelly there is no systematic [(+)/(-) vs. red/black] how the polarity is to the single chassis :(

- Do you have all the various 250(xx) schematics ?

I think so, someone else more?

- Have you compared the woofer polarities within these different schematics ?

Woofer is signed with (+) "outward movement" in BQ and Jubl. schematics

Exact, And when I connected the red Connector of the Chassis (not the box) to a pos. 1.5V battery the cone moves inward!

- I suggest that you open up the speaker and make notes on the various colors of the wiring ( as found in your model ). Then post that info on "wire-colors" , here in this thread .

The problem is the connection labelled with "Strip and Tin" at Woofer and MF which can be connected in two ways in oppsite to the male/female connectors of the HF and UHF. Btw in N250Ti BQ the UHF Chassis 035TiA-1 is marked (-), in the Jubilee version the gold plated UHF (035TiA-2 ??) is marked (+) in the schematics.

:)

[korgroenewoud]

Change this fantastic system back to the original design and the problem will be solved.

[JBLnsince1959]

There is a -4dB reduction for UHF and -2dB reduction for the HF, which I (hopefully) will change to +- 0 dB this weekend.

where were you measuring from and how?

[Steelyfan]

if I look at your avatar, are left and right not reversed ?

[Robh3606]

"if I look at your avatar, are left and right not reversed ?"

Good Eye

Rob:)

[Titanium Dome]

I haven't checked the 250ti manual, but the L250 manual explicitly states that L and R do not matter. You may place either enclosure on the right or the left, as long as you have a mirrored pair.

Does this principle extend to the 250Ti? I don't know. Owners, look in your manuals and enlighten us. :)

[korgroenewoud]

On the back of the Jubilee it says L and R.

[filigran]

if I look at your avatar, are left and right not reversed ?

I decided to listen in the reverse orientation, because the high frequencies are emitted a bit more in the oblique orientation. This was measured by the german Audio magazine "Stereoplay" 01/1986 for the 250Ti

[korgroenewoud]

Okay, there is no obligation to place the right speaker on the right side and the other on the left side. It just depends on your listening room. and preference. What i meant to say is that there is on the back of each jubilee a sign L and R.

[Earl K]

Filigran,

- Did Mundorf actually build this replacement network for your 250 Jubilee ?

- It would be helpful to others who may want to help you , if you posted a picture of the schematic for this (converted) network . JPGs , .gifs, and pdfs are easily posted here ( among a few other file types ) .

- Since the Mundorf network isn't "biased" and the original Jubilee is ( biased ) , something may have gone wrong with the value conversions for the passives .

There is a file size limitation for attachements , as well as a limitation on any images' width & height. These guidelines are speced out by the Administrator in the Information Forum (http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=11) .



- Also , your first post contained a reference to "R6" , being a value of;

(1Ohm instead of 9.1Ohm, how does this result "in the ear", giskard?)
- Is that what you actually meant ? 1. Ohm vs 9.1 Ohm , or is the above, just a mistake in typing ( ie; missing the "0" in 10 Ohms ) ?


Unfortunatelly there is no systematic [(+)/(-) vs. red/black] how the polarity is to the single chassis
- Does this mean that your replacement Mundorf network is internally wired utilizing 4 pairs of red & black wires ?

- Or, does the internal wiring in your replacement network follow the same color code conventions as the original Jubilee network ?

- Are you experienced at tracing ( or tracking-down or identifying ) which wires are the ground wires in a multiway passive crossover ?


Who knows which cable connects to which port of any chassis connection originally?

- The designer determines which polarities for the various drivers gives the best acoustical summation through the 3 distinct crossover areas .

- All the various 250 networks do indicate whether or not a driver will "suck-air"/ or rarify/ move backwards ( when connected according to the diagram ) or if the driver will "blow-air" or compress/move forwards ( when connected according to the diagram ) . What's most important to observe ( IMO ) is the various polarity relationships that exist between the 4 drivers .


The cabling for MidFrequency Chassis (MF) and woofer (Low frequency, LF) are made of "strip and tin" while the others uses male/female connectors to make sure not plugging wrong.

- Your focus is too narrow & likely too simplistic/naîve . You need to broaden it to hopefully find the full magnitude of any possible polarity problems built into your custom network .

(1) For instance ; Just because someone installed "sexed" connectors on the colored wires in your replacement network doesn't mean those "sexed" connectors are on the right wires .

(2) I'd suggest you; Go back & do the 1.5V battery test of the 3 coned drivers. Note which color of terminal or shape of tab gives an outward movement when you apply a positive DC voltage.
- Remove one tweeter and then see if it has identifying "+" & "-" markings .
- I'm not sure if the battery test is wise to apply to a tweeter like this ( maybe someone can enlighten us ) . I'm also not sure if you would see any diaphagm movement if you did apply 1.5 volts DC.

(3) Once "you" know which terminal gives outward cone movement on each of your 4 drivers "&" once "you" know which wires on your crossver represent the common/negative/ or drain wire of the replacement crossover,,,,, then ,,, you'll can get some meaningfull advice on how to wire it up properly according to the intended polarities of that network .

Some House-Keeping Tips

- If you are going to add your replies inside of my entire "quoted" post , then will you please make it easier to differentiate your text from mine. There are a bunch of ways to do that.

ie; Colorizing your text is an easy way to do this .

- colorizing is accomplished by surrounding the chosen text with ["color=blue] & [/color]. Leave out the " in the first bracket .
- to italicize ( outside of a quoted post ) one would add ["i] & [/] around the text to be italized ( again, leave out the " sign within the first bracket ).

- so to colorize and italize "this Example !" , you would write :
["color=blue]["i]this Example ![/i][/color] - Now leaving out the two " characters it becomes : this Example !

Which is much easier to spot and focus on in a sea of black ink !

:) - Thanks !

[Earl K]

Hi Mike

- Here's a .gif of the network schematic showing just the portion for the 108H low-mid speaker .

- It shows the ( R6 ) resistor that you've referenced .

- R6 is part of a LCR notch filter .

- If your present network has a 1 ohm resistor inserted instead of the 9.1 ohm value / then there will be a deep hole created in the upper end of the 108H(s)' response curve / centered in the 1100 hz area . How deep a hole will also depend on the "Q" of this filter ( which I don't know ) .

- If you have a 1 ohm in this position in the R6 then you should exchange it for something in the 9 to 10 ohm range. This will restore some midrange in that region.

- Now, if you have a 10 ohm resistor in the R6 position, you'll have just a wee bit more midrange than what the designer had intended .

:)

[Earl K]

Hi filigran

As far as I see it , if you are missing output strength in the HF & UHF areas, the reason(s) must be from one ( or a combinations of ) the following three possibilities .

(1) The custom crossover you are using was made with the incorrect value resistors.

- You can easily determine if this is the case by comparing the value of the present resistors to the values speced for the N250Ti Jubilee.

(2) Your custom crossover may have inductors that have higher than speced DCR values .

- Again, You can easily determine if this is the case by checking the DCR values of the present inductors to the values speced for the Jubilee network.

(3) The usage of Mundorf capacitors has drastically changed the "voicing" of a system that was voiced for "bypassed" , "DC-biased", "electrolytic capacitors".

- This is a possible explanation and not as far fetched as it may appear , though it relies on accepting a phenomenon that's not talked about much ( at least not around here ) . Since I've never heard Mundorf caps / I can't speak with any first hand experience on how they might effect the overall voicing of your 250ti system.

- I have found in my own studies on caps , that as caps get smoother & deeper sounding / there can be a perceived level-drop to the UHF area . I haven't found it to be measurable / but subjectively the effect is very real . I've even taken to bypassing smooth sounding networks with sharper sounding caps - just to restore a sense of "loudness" to the UHF area . Also, I find that smooth/deep sounding network legs ( a compression driver circuit in my case ) must be turned up a bit to restore subjective balance ( when balanced against woofers ) . This increase is usually confined to the neighbourhood of a fraction of a db ( maybe .5 db ).

- The Mundorfs just might be subjecting you to this effect .

- You will need to reduce the resistive padding on these 2 network legs to test out this idea .

- A problem in attempting to change the amount of tweeter padding ? One needs to know the AC impedance curves for the 2 top-end drivers to reasonably alter the values of the padding resistors.
- I don't have those curves to give you / maybe someone else does and can post them.
- Without them, you will most likely change the circuits' working impedance in that area. The preceeding LC components are set to work to a specific impedance. A change in working circuit impedance will result in a shift to the crossover points. Not a good thing .

:)

[filigran]

where were you measuring from and how?

No measuring, the values are from Mundorf who developed them.

[filigran]

Hi filigran

As far as I see it , if you are missing output strength in the HF & UHF areas, the reason(s) must be from one ( or a combinations of ) the following three possibilities .

(1) The custom crossover you are using was made with the incorrect value resistors.

- You can easily determine if this is the case by comparing the value of the present resistors to the values speced for the N250Ti Jubilee.

(2) Your custom crossover may have inductors that have higher than speced DCR values .

- Again, You can easily determine if this is the case by checking the DCR values of the present inductors to the values speced for the Jubilee network.

(3) The usage of Mundorf capacitors has drastically changed the "voicing" of a system that was voiced for "bypassed" , "DC-biased", "electrolytic capacitors".

- This is a possible explanation and not as far fetched as it may appear , though it relies on accepting a phenomenon that's not talked about much ( at least not around here ) . Since I've never heard Mundorf caps / I can't speak with any first hand experience on how they might effect the overall voicing of your 250ti system.

- I have found in my own studies on caps , that as caps get smoother & deeper sounding / there can be a perceived level-drop to the UHF area . I haven't found it to be measurable / but subjectively the effect is very real . I've even taken to bypassing smooth sounding networks with sharper sounding caps - just to restore a sense of "loudness" to the UHF area . Also, I find that smooth/deep sounding network legs ( a compression driver circuit in my case ) must be turned up a bit to restore subjective balance ( when balanced against woofers ) . This increase is usually confined to the neighbourhood of a fraction of a db ( maybe .5 db ).

- The Mundorfs just might be subjecting you to this effect .

- You will need to reduce the resistive padding on these 2 network legs to test out this idea .

- The problem in attempting a change to the padding ? One needs to know the AC impedance curves for the 2 top-end drivers to reasonably alter the values of the padding resistors.
- I don't have those curves to give you / maybe someone else does and can post them.
- Without them, you will most likely change the circuits' working impedance in that area. The preceeding LC components are set to work to a specific impedance. A change in working circuit impedance will result in a shift to the crossover points. Not a good thing .

Ehhh, I know the basics of R, L, Cs in the network for speakers, thank you.
The de-biasing was made in taking one capacitor of the half value and no 9V between them.

:)

Hi Earl K,

first thank you for your infos,

to (1):
Indeed I changed today some resistors. One was definetelly the wrong value (R6 1Ohm instead of 9.1Ohm, as I told before) and the resistors R12, R13 was changed from 2.2 and 6.8Ohms to the original 1.2 and 15Ohms, which gave more power to the UHF Chassis: from -4dB to -0DB. And I changed R7, R8 from 9Ohms to 7.5Ohms to achieve -0DB instead of -2dB in the HF.
All other values are +-0.1Ohm correct.

to(2):
DCR values of the present inductors were taken into account.
After short listening the situation improves a bit: more heights as expected. But my small Nubert speakers (NuBox 380, very linear 2way system) sounds still a bit more fresh and higher.

Pos. signal from the network is connected now to LF-black, MF-red, HF-male, UHF-(+)sign.

to(3):
Well, this is a complex field...hmmm

I think next I will change the Mundorf network to the Original Jub. network to hear what it should sound.

grmpff...:(

[Guido]

Welcome Filigran!

I watched your Jubilees on Ebay and was sure this would be the case: messed up networks.

See, Mundorf really pisses me off! This company is one of the most arrogant companies ever. They sell stupid nonsense like silver/gold capacitors that cost fortune. I tried them and they do not sound any better than a good PP cap bypassed with PP film foils.
They never answer mails that are in any way critical! Must be a company advice :barf:

The fact that they are completely unable to "modify" a JBL network is absolutely logical for me.

Your original networks are also not THAT fine as they are made from electrolytic caps only.

PM me with you email. I'll try to help you.

[filigran]

Welcome Filigran!

I watched your Jubilees on Ebay and was sure this would be the case: messed up networks.

I´m not sure that the network is messed up.

See, Mundorf really pisses me off! This company is one of the most arrogant companies ever. They sell stupid nonsense like silver/gold capacitors that cost fortune. I tried them and they do not sound any better than a good PP cap bypassed with PP film foils.
They never answer mails that are in any way critical! Must be a company advice :barf:

The fact that they are completely unable to "modify" a JBL network is absolutely logical for me.

Why so angry? They did the same thing like Giskard when he biased the original N250Ti. All the other values remain the same.

Your original networks are also not THAT fine as they are made from electrolytic caps only.

I will hear it when I have time to change networks (thank god I have the Orig. Jubl network too).

PM me with you email. I'll try to help you.
My mail adress should be in my profil. What would you like to know?

.

[4313B]

They did the same thing like Giskard when he biased the original N250Ti.

Oh pew! They WISH they were as good as me.

[filigran]

They did the same thing like Giskard when he biased the original N250Ti.

Oh pew! They WISH they were as good as me.

Hi Giskard, of course you are the guru...

Have you any guru-ideas what else can be wrong or what I have to check?
Is my polarity right?

Thanks in advance, Mike.

PS: Below is a pic of the complete network in the bottom of the box.

[Guido]

They did the same thing like Giskard when he biased the original N250Ti.

:biting: OMG
NO they didn't! :crying:

You don't need to PM me. It was just an offer for help :p

[Earl K]

Hi Mike,

- Now that Giskard has showed up , I'll leave you guys to work through the problems with your network .


:)

PS; - If after getting the padding maximized ( among other things ), you believe the problem may still be cap related ( like for instance, the stock voicing depends on a touch of "splash" from the stock recipe , then take a gander at Humble HomeMade HiFi. (http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html)

- Over the years, Tony G has been developing some useful opinions on different capacitor models. There might be something within his reviews that suggests a direction for you to take to maximize what you presently have .

[filigran]

They did the same thing like Giskard when he biased the original N250Ti.

:biting: OMG
NO they didn't! :crying:

You don't need to PM me. It was just an offer for help :p

Hi Guido, what´s your problem?

What has Giskard done to the N250Ti otherwise than doubling the caps and their values (normal serial equivalent) and connrcting 9V between them?

I hear very loud music but I´ve still fine ears, no need to shout.

[Steelyfan]

Hello Filligran,
I remember from reading the auction description that the cones were treated with some kind of liquid product. "to make them sound even better".
If that is correct, that is another source of tonal change.

The networks for/with Mundorf are designed by a separate company, (I once had it but did not keep their address) maybe it is wise to ask for their address to Mundorf, in order to have first hand explanation why changes were made compared to original design.