two 2213H for subwoofer?

[MatthiasA]

Hello!

my question - are two 2213H drivers from A 4312 Studio Monitors
suitable for a vented subwoofer?
how much liters would you prefer?
has anybody Thiel Small Parameters for calculation?

Greetings Matthias

[remusr]

Dual 2213H's should be great - sens is lower than a 15" by 3-5dB but they take alot of power, >200w on my system, and may be a bit faster than a 15. Impedance is a bit low, in the 6 ohm range so watch that if parallel them. Here are the Thiele-Small, you should be able to find the whole list in Tech Lib or search for it:

fs=25 cps
Qts=0.49
Qms=8.5
Qes=0.52
VAS=8.3 cf or 235 L
Eff=0.68 %
PE=75 watts
Xm=0.31" or 0.62" P-P
Dia=9.8 in
Sd=75.4 in2
Vd=23.3 in3
Re=4.4 ohm
Le=0.6 mH
BI=8.9 T-m
Mms=85 g
FluxDens=1.0 T

[GordonW]

2213H has same parameters as the 123A, to all significant degrees. Check out this thread for a design I came up for isobaric loaded 123As... you could always just cut the volume in half and the port area in half (keeping the same port length), and use only two drivers in a single clam-shell pair:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3922&highlight=123A+bandpass

If you wanted to run a standard vented enclosure for a subwoofer, I'd recommend at least 4 cubic feet PER 123A/2213H. Tune the box to somewhere in the low-20Hz range (ie, around 23-25 Hz or so)...

Regards,
Gordon.

[MatthiasA]

hello - thanks a lot for this information

i calculated with bass box pro
do you thinks its ok ?

greetings matthias

http://www.asselborn-matthias.de/22.JPG

here with crossover ...
but why is the curve over 2khz?
what part values would you take?

http://www.asselborn-matthias.de/23.JPG

[MatthiasA]

how much liters has the orginal 4312 monitor?
do anybody know the dimension of porttube?

greetings matthias

[Robh3606]

Hello Matthias

You have quite a peak there at 60hz. Don't know what your room dimensions are but many rooms have modes in the 50-70Hz region and dropping a sub in with a peak there????? Don't you have the ME120?? drivers???. What do you need bass fill below 50Hz or so?? Problem with that driver is for you to get extended bass out of it with a smooth peak free curve you need very large cabinets. There are better choices if you need smaller boxes. Watch the Xmax on the larger more extended tunings.

Rob:)

[MatthiasA]

Rob - thanks a lot
i didn't know that the peak at 50 hz
isnt so good for many rooms
(my little room has about 20meters²)
in which range should be the curve?
smaller cabinets are better for me!

how much cu feet has the orginal 4312?

[Fangio]

Hi Matthias,

the 4312 L,R enclosures have 597x362x298mm. Hope that helps for a circa-calculation in litres.

Porttube diameter is 70mm.
F.

[MatthiasA]

Hello Fangio
ive read your 4312 Thread!!!:applaud:
how long is the Porttube?

greetings Matthias

[Fangio]

Arrrgh..

the 2 porttubes that were left from this project were sold with the crossovers on ebay and shipped to a french buyer yesterday. :(

I will screw out one 2213 and get back to you then.

[Zilch]

Hello Matthias.

Try single-tuned compound isobaric bandpass, as Gordon suggested above.

105 dB enough for your room?

Here, then, two 123A clambshell (face-to-face) in a total 3.75 cu.ft.:

[Everybody's runnin' BB6P for Matthias this morning.... :) ]

[Robh3606]

If you can get them into large boxes they look great. The basic point is why start with a peaked responce.You can sometimes work around problems in the room with placement however some times you can't. Even if you get thing set-up where your placement is perfect you still have that peak that will be very audible. It will be one note bass without some for of EQ to balance things out to get the smooth extended bass you are looking for. Attached are links to two room mode calculators. The JBL one is basic. The one from Stereophille you can place your speakers and see what the results would be at your prime spot. They are both lots of fun to mess around with.

http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=131.0


http://www.ultimateavmag.com/news/10388/index.html

You have Bass Box run them as extended bass. You get a great looking curve but pull up the X Max plot and Max Input Power and bellow 40hz you have some real issues with power handling in this alignment. Even sealed Hi Fi you have a problem. Try 4 Cubic Ft. Thats the blue plot on the screen shot.

Have fun!

Rob:)

[Robh3606]

Hey Zilch

We doing this at the same time??

Rob:nanana:

[Zilch]

Hey Zilch

We doing this at the same time??

Rob:nanana:Hee, hee. Box design is FUN!

Many options to try.

Everything I've built according to BB6P has worked better than anticipated. :thmbsup:

Bandpass designs are quite amazing how they perform in comparatively small boxes. I was using 123A above. With 2213H, it's only 3.23 cu.ft. total for the same performance, essentially. Heavy damping in the closed chamber flattens it, too....

['Course, they pretty good in REALLY BIG boxes, too! :p ]

[MatthiasA]

both curves are great!

i want to see the both 2213H .. in a isobaric sub i cannot see the drivers...
are the 4 cu feet for one 2213 or fo both ?
rob could you send me the bass box file?
what for a port tube did you take?

greetings matthias

[Zilch]

i want to see the both 2213H .. in a isobaric sub i cannot see the drivers....Easy. Clear polycarbonate or acrylic front.

Neon lights inside. Different colors for different music genres, or SPL.

Subwoofing color organ.... :thmbsup:

[MatthiasA]

no no no !!!!!!!
:D

[Robh3606]

I sent you the file check your email. That's a single driver in a standard bass reflex.

Rob:)

[MatthiasA]

which email adress
i didnt recieved a mail from you rob
please send it to
info @ asselborn-matthias.de

thanks a lot !!!!

by the way these are the two 2213H
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5847979599&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&rd=1

[Robh3606]

Oh Boy

Matthias you realize these drivers do not have JBL cone kits installed??? You are going to have to measure them to see what the T/S are with the kits installed. I hope I am wrong but reading the auction and looking at the cones they are not the same.

Rob:(

[MatthiasA]

Yes - of course i asked the seller about any changes in T/S
he answerd that these speakers have the same TSP

what do you think about that?
http://www.asselborn-matthias.de/223.JPG

[MatthiasA]

Rob can you tell me the messure of the tube in the 4cu feet cabinet
i cant open the bb6 file!
i will try it with 4cu feet and 47 liters
now i have to wait for the drivers!

greetings matthias

[Zilch]

no no no !!!!!!! :DAlas, another generation oblivious to the joys of elemental psychedelia. :(

Where'd we go WRONG, folks? Was the "Summer of Love" all for nought? ;)

Tim Leary LIVES!

[remusr]

One thing - JBL's published VAS on their Thiele-Small chart that I quoted at the start is 235L not the 161L you all show. Is that material in this design and why are the numbers different?

I have caught a fair number of errors in JBL's chart so far - is this another?
- Roy

[Robh3606]

Hello Matthias


That's really strange about the file. It open right up for me???? I am opening the one attached to the email I sent you??? Weird:biting:

DV is 3.872 Lv is 9.503

I tried running it in the smaller box and it had a good size peak in the response.
Attached is a screen shot

Rob:)

[MatthiasA]

Hello!

is this messure in inch or millimeters?
DV is 3.872 Lv is 9.503

yes its very strange ... when i open your file i get this - heres a screenshot!

http://www.asselborn-matthias.de/bb6.JPG

[Robh3606]

We are on the English system so my measurements are set in Cubic Ft and Inches and Feet.


Rob:)

[duaneage]

Be sure to account for the magnet structures when making the boxes, it could affect the final design.

However I would consider a three chamber bandpass with both drivers using either one common sealed chamber ( that is 2X sized for one speaker) or a common vented chamber (that is also 2X sized) and foregoing the isobaric design. Isobarics are very ineffecient due to the reduced cone area and dual motors. You basically have a 12 inch driver with an oversized motor on it.The stress on the cones can be quite different and not all drivers respond well to being front pushed by another driver.

The constuction technique is more complicated and access to the drivers can be tough. face to face leaves one driver in the breeze and it might get damaged. Front to back is not recommended becaue of the rear vent, damage would occur.

On a postive note distortion is usually halved and power handling is doubled, but the reduced efficiency makes it a moot point.

Having built systems both ways with the same drivers ( not 2213s, other speakers) I prefered triple chamber sealed designs with common sealed chamber and dual vented chambers. I slightly staggered the tuning between the two vented chambers to increase the range a bit and it worked very well. The dual ports radiated lots of power and being some distance apart made the distribution very good.

just my .02 don't hate me.

[MatthiasA]

my 2213H didnt arrive yet

but could i build a bass scoop with these drivers ?
how can i calculate it ?

greetings matthias

[MatthiasA]

Hello

now the two 2213H are arrived
ok there are one Problem!
The diaphragm and membrane is orginal the sicks too
But there is an amusing lacquer on the sicks
that make a terrible crack noise ???
i take some water and did it on the lacquer
but the noise disappeard not fully

heres a Pic of the Prototyp