Audio analyzing, what to use?

[Flodstroem]

Hi folks! :)

Has anybody tried out this audio-analyzer:
http://cgi.ebay.com/PHONIC-PAA3-AUDIO-ANALYSER-USB-FIREWIRE-RTA-for-MACKIE_W0QQitemZ7382072799QQcategoryZ3278QQssPageN ameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Is it worth the money? :hmm:

If not, what type/equipment to use for simple audio measurements (SPL Freq. respons etc...) for loudspeaker (box) measurements.
:cheers:

[boputnam]

Search here on that - Ken raves about them and has posted good reviews...

[hmolwitz]

http://digilander.libero.it/hsoft/
file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/admhmol/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpgNeeded mics and a duplex soundcard.
A bit buggy but the price is right for me.......
Harry

[Flodstroem]

Search here on that - Ken raves about them and has posted good reviews...

Thanks Bo for the tip. :D

I read the threads regarding the PAA3. Very interesting and informative. It seems that the PAA3 is worth the money and I must consider if I should buy one. Must figure it out how to get it to Norway without paying a fortune in custom fees etc...... :(

Regards

[dancing-dave]

These guys are supposed to be decent if you want a stand alone unit:

http://www.terrasonde.com/

If it's benchtop use, then you can't go wrong with Audio Precision:

http://www.audioprecision.com/

[ralphs99]

If it doesn't need to be hand-held, then a decent soundcard and one of the many MLS based design/measurement packages for the PC is the way to go.
eg LspCAD, Clio, Soundeasy etc.
A bit of a learning curve, but really powerful.

Cheers, Ralph.

[pelly3s]

Smaart is the way I go about analying things at work. everything i have read about the phonic peice is good. I havent been a fan of any of their products but this looks like a good one. someone makes one that goes onto a pocket pc too which is cool but the name of the company escapes me right now

[Flodstroem]

Thank you pelly3s and all the others for the informs.

The problem (for me) is that am working on Mac computers and Smaart are design only for the PC/Windows system.

Now, I have found this when surfing the internet:

http://www.supermegaultragroovy.com/products/FuzzMeasure/index.py :bouncy:

Looks good so far, but is there anybody who have tried it out or works with this software ?

Thanks in advance

[Titanium Dome]

Thank you pelly3s and all the others for the informs.

The problem (for me) is that am working on Mac computers and Smaart are design only for the PC/Windows system.

Now, I have found this when surfing the internet:

http://www.supermegaultragroovy.com/products/FuzzMeasure/index.py :bouncy:

Looks good so far, but is there anybody who have tried it out or works with this software ?

Thanks in advance

I've used FuzzMeasure for some time now. I think I've mentioned it a few times in older threads. It works well; I'd recommend it.

I have a few other weapons in my Mac arsenal, as well.

1.) For a simple software oscilloscope, try WaveWindow:

http://store6.esellerate.net/store/catalog.aspx?s=STR8822548555&pc=

There's some other cool stuff there for Mac musicians.


2.) If you want a cheap sonogram, try FFTea:

http://oomz.net/FFTea/index.html

The developer seems a little pissy with Apple's switch to Intel, though.


3.) A useful companion testing tool is AudioTest:

http://www.katsurashareware.com/pgs/audiotest.html

It'll create nine different types of waves.


4.) I also still use AudioXplorer, a now discontinued piece of RTA software. The good news: it is OS X and the download is now free.

http://www.arizona-software.ch/applications/audioxplorer/en/


In addition, check out Mac the Scope and Waavebox. I've demoed them, but haven't used them a lot. They look useful.

http://www.channld.com/prdinf.html


Finally, take a look at SignalScope Pro:

http://www.faberacoustical.com/SignalScopePro/

Obviously you don't need all this software, but try it all and see what works well for you. :)

[Ken Pachkowsky]

someone makes one that goes onto a pocket pc too which is cool but the name of the company escapes me right now

I think your refering to IVIE. I would love to play with this new model. Has some great features.
http://www.ivie.com/products_inst_ie33.htm

If you have deep pockets it is truly one of the finest portable solutions. My uncle has been using a IE-30A RTA in his audio business for 30 years and they are first class. I have not used the Pocket PC based unit but have used the IE-30A unit. Throughout the sixties till the mid eighties they were the defacto standard for portable use. They are twice the price of a Audio Control 3052/51 but are excellent. Very hard to find used and sell quickly.

Not a bad deal here.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Ivie-IE-33-Handheld-Audio-Analyzer_W0QQitemZ7583224666QQcategoryZ25423QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The PAA3 will do a damned fine job for the price. Steve Schell is using them as well. For a PC solution I have heard great things about Smart.

Ken

[Flodstroem]

Now Im not worried any more. It was a a h... of a list (=superb) you posted here.

This will be a very good help, and hope I can come back and ask for more information (regarding microphones etc...) when things has been installed/downloaded etc.... :D

Regards

[pelly3s]

Thanks Ken I couldnt remember for the life of me

[Titanium Dome]

I've been watching the development on this Mac OS X RTA software, Spectre, and I remembered your interest. It requires OS 10.4, but it utilizes Quartz, OpenGL, and CoreAudio. There are 11 different available meters, each with multiple permutations.

http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/spectre.php

It costs $88, but the demo runs for 15 days with no restrictions.

[moldyoldy]

...snip...more information (regarding microphones etc...) when things has been installed/downloaded etc.... :D

Unless you're buying a package with both software and hardware, your soundcard must be full duplex at a (recommended) minimum of 16 bits/48kHz. Some cards with advertised rates of 24bit/96kHz still only duplex at the lower rate, so check the duplex rate. Here's where a little green goes a long way, as hipo souncards are fairly cheap (compared to a lot of the software). Consider future needs or expansion, especially on connectivity, or (like me) you'll buy more than one. My personal experience with USB cards is bad, the added latency screws up time domains. Don't know, but USB 2.0 or firewire might work OK.

Most measurement-rated mics are balanced, lo-Z, and need phantom power. They won't plug-and-play with an 1/8" mini. Some cards have external I/O bays, and there are a few with balanced, powered I/O, or you can improvise. Actually, most any mic of sufficient bandwidth will do for casual use, as long as the response is known and predictable so you can correct for nonlinearities.

All hardware links to the test item must meet your minimum requirements, and also calibrated or otherwise corrected to present linear, accurate data to the software.

Be warned! Once you're into it, the measurement process itself can be as intrigueing and challenging as the project you're using it for. As you learn, you'll recognize where improvements are needed in the test system. A tweak here, some solder there, pretty soon you'll forget you were building a speaker system. Many with WAF concerns will have new ones, as repeated chirps, sweeps 20K sines, and blasts of pink noise can induce PMS, and cause children to have permanent nervous tics and sleep disorders. Don't get me started on the local dogs when I go outdoors with it.

[Flodstroem]

This was really interesting news.

I havnt bought any software yet, so this came in to the "right time". I have been looking at the link and plan to buy a program from audiofile-engineering.

Titanium Dome, have you checked/tested this software yet?


Be warned! Once you're into it, the measurement process itself can be as intrigueing and challenging as the project you're using it for. As you learn, you'll recognize where improvements are needed in the test system. A tweak here, some solder there, pretty soon you'll forget you were building a speaker system.

Yes moldyoldy, you are probably right regarding this, I know, I´v done it before and have some experience:D

BTW, what is needed regarding hardwares (microphone or microphones, amps, etc) for to use a software like this? Is there any good site on the internet describing this issue ?

Because Im a novice in this matter and have zero experience testing speakers in this way -initially this hardwares should be cheap and simple to use. I can upgrade later to professional level if need be.

Thanks in advance
Regards :cool:

[Titanium Dome]

This was really interesting news.

I havnt bought any software yet, so this came in to the "right time". I have been looking at the link and plan to buy a program from audiofile-engineering.

Titanium Dome, have you checked/tested this software yet?

(snip)

I downloaded it and played with it a little so far. As you can see on the Web site, you can assemble the measuring instruments into sets to use in different situations.

[Titanium Dome]

Here's a different set, showing a variation on the number of tools, their appearance, and what they measure.

[Hoerninger]

Look here, may be it's useful:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11463&highlight=carma
You will need mic preamp, because those of soundcards normally are not good.
The programm uses MLS-signals, which are short and ear-friendly. These signals are produced by the programm itself.
Unfortunately the englich handbook is still in progress.
____________
Peter

[Titanium Dome]

Initially, the quickest way to assemble sets and modify tools is through the "Assistant..." in the "Create" menu.

You can use a product like M-Audio's Firewire Solo to handle input/output and to connect the calibrated mic of your choice. Of course, if you want to experiment with the software before spending a lot of money, you can use OS X's built in CoreAudio and a cheap USB or 1/8" line in mic for starters, though I would not publish any results. (Well, maybe I would, just to see the reaction. :p )

[Steve Schell]

I continue to be impressed with the usefulness and convenience of the Phonic PAA3 handheld RTA. I've barely used my LMS system since the Phonic arrived. It doesn't offer the fine resolution of course, but gives the user the big picture quickly and easily.

Yesterday I used it to help a friend straighten out his quad amped horn system; he was unhappy with his system's focus and imaging. First we did a polarity check on the drivers, and found that one tweeter on each side was connected backwards. He uses three tweeters on each side (!), one JBL slot flanked by 075s on either side. He had trusted the polarity of the terminals, but the slots were wired opposite to the 075s. Straightening this out made a major improvement as you can imagine.

Next we aligned his speakers for symmetry using a stretched string from the listening chair, and the imaging tightened up some more. Then we ran the 1/3 octave RTA while feeding pink noise from the PAA3 test CD to the system and set driver levels for a very slightly downsloping response across the audio band, as measured at the listening chair. There wasn't too much to do here aside from turning his subwoofer level down quite a bit. One last change was to angle the 075s outward at 45 degrees relative to the slots to reduce the overlapping of their patterns. This caused a nice improvement in perceived smoothness and spaciousness, enough so that we didn't bother to remeasure the frequency response.

All of these tweaks took only a few minutes. We listened to some music and enjoyed the large overall improvement. The Sheffield Drum record sounded quite believable. PAA3 to the rescue!

[Ken Pachkowsky]

I continue to be impressed with the usefulness and convenience of the Phonic PAA3 handheld RTA.

Thats good news Steve. Glad I turned you on to it.

It's probably the only thing Phonic makes thats decent quality.

Ken

[Titanium Dome]

Thats good news Steve. Glad I turned you on to it.

It's probably the only thing Phonic makes thats decent quality.

Ken

I was impressed with it when I saw it at your place.

[Ken Pachkowsky]

I was impressed with it when I saw it at your place.

Yep, its a great little tool. I have the Paa2 not the 3.

Ken

[moldyoldy]

BTW, what is needed regarding hardwares (microphone or microphones, amps, etc) for to use a software like this?

I'm not Mac-savvy at all, but hardware requirements should be similar. Your test data will only be as accurate as your gear allows. To get it right the first time, ensure that your choice of hardware/software is well matched by studying the specs for all items. For basic, entry-level, occasional use with programs such as Ti's link;

1. Soundcard that will full duplex a minimum of 16 bit/48kHz. Most SoundBlaster cards fill the bill, as do others. Time domain and frequency measurements are limited to 1/2 of the clock speed (i.e., a 48kHz card can do up to 24kHz measurements).

2. A full-range test mic and whatever's needed to interface it. An affordable, yet accurate choice might be the Behringer ECM-8000 mic, with a mini preamp such as the Behriger UB802, MX602, DSP110, Rolls MP13, or Art MicroMix can get you going here for a little over $100. An even cheaper alternative would be RatShack's digital SPL meter, which has a mic out you can connect directly to most soundcards, requires no correction, and doubles as standalone SPL. Somewhat limited advanced usage.

3. A fullrange linear amp with quality current drive (this rules out tubes). Your existing system amp can likely fill the bill for occasional use, later you'll likely want a dedicated unit. Most soundcards can drive power amps directly, or you can route through pre- or integrated inputs as well. The old KISS routine applies here.

You'll need to do a loopback calibration, by placing a 5W (appropriate ohm value, 8, 16, etc) power resistor across the amp out, and connecting it to the soundcard line-in. A DMM will facilitate calibration of the soft meter displays and I/O levels to actual values (peak-to-peak features are a plus, but RMS will suffice). All system settings, both hard and soft, need to be easily and accurately repeatable so you won't have to cal for each use. Since the mic (and preamp) can't be included in the cal loop, you need a setup there of known performance. A very handy freeware program to verify your loopback performance is RightMark Audio Analyzer (RMAA).

Standalone devices like Steve uses, and other similar units have several advantages, the main ones being ease of use and portability.

The "catch" to any test system is the non-linearity of testing in a reverberant environment, as the test results will be colored by the signifigant in-room response errors, which entry-level software can't correct. You can "get by" on the LF end by very near mic placement, but otherwise you'll get comb filtering and other artifacts. Kind of frustrating after spending money and setup time, only to learn your test results are tainted and inaccurate. More advanced programs allow windowed impulse response that can provide quasi-anechoic functions, thereby giving results that approach those taken in anechoic chambers. They also require much more from the user (you) in their ability to be correctly implemented.

The usefullness of any test setup is limited also by your ability to interpret the test results. Not much can be gained from plots of amplitude, phase, and frequency, if you don't understand what they tell you.

The advances in the realm of measurement systems is really amazing. $200 and a computer can get you beyond what could be done with several bays of very expensive test gear only a few years ago. It's conceivable that we may soon be able to measure and explore all the characteristics of sound that the ear/brain can perceive, leaving little or no need for subjectivity, a major plus for most of us half-brainers.

In the back of my mind, I wonder if putting advanced system test abilities in the hands of anyone with enough pocket change will eventually have the same (debateably negative) effect on the audio industry as P'oTools and the like has had on the music industry? In the meantime, I'm having a blast with both.

A decent starting point for reference from Wikipedia;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_system_measurements

An excellent paper on the ultimate single driver test system;

http://jipihorn.free.fr/Projets%20en%20cours/Mesures/dlcpaper.pdf#search=%22measuring%20loudspeaker%20p roperties%22

http://members.cox.net/bfishjohnson/Jensen%20free%20space%20testing-1944.jpg

[Titanium Dome]

That picture—which I've seen before—is hilarious! I know it's a demonstration of the lengths (literally) to which serious inquiry will take one, but the sheer nuttiness of it is, well, impressive. Thanks for posting it again. :D :rotfl:

Also, you give good advice about what it takes to get there, as I'm blissfully and deliberately ignorant here. My maxim is "Less is more," though I highly respect those who follow the "More is more" way, too. I probably know more about the Mac software scene than most, though I believe Earl K is a Mac guy and may use some of this stuff better than I use it. In any event, my contribution is more on the software side, to be sure.

You're right that there's little or no differentiation in useful equipment for Mac or PC as long as one can get the correct signal in.

Just as an aside, have you every thought about a portable or custom sound booth to make your measuring easier? I've been looking at what these guys do as special requests. They also make booths of almost every size. Maybe the next best thing to an anechoic chamber in your house?

http://www.soundsuckers.com/current.htm#current

[moldyoldy]

Just as an aside, have you every thought about a portable or custom sound booth to make your measuring easier? I've been looking at what these guys do as special requests. They also make booths of almost every size. Maybe the next best thing to an anechoic chamber in your house?

http://www.soundsuckers.com/current.htm#current

Not really. Close reflections are the most problematic, and it don't get much closer than in a box. I know, advanced materials and all, but I'm not convinced. For my non-commercial purposes, my driveway or deck give satisfactory results.

Just happy I don't have to do it this way;

[Titanium Dome]

Not really. Close reflections are the most problematic, and it don't get much closer than in a box. I know, advanced materials and all, but I'm not convinced. For my non-commercial purposes, my driveway or deck give satisfactory results.

Just happy I don't have to do it this way;

Living near LA Harbor and a block from a major street, outdoor testing is futile.

If it's not a booming basso profundo from an arriving or departing freighter, it's the chronic "beep, beep, beep" of backing trucks or loaders. If it's not diesel trucks rumbling in the distance, it's some knucklehead on a minibike in the alley. If it's not a low rider ghetto blasting the block it's ten kids on skateboards laughing and exclaiming one of a hundred variations of "F#ck!" as loud as they can while enjoying a noisy, clacking ride down the hill. Or it's an LAPD helicopter overheard, LAPD and LASD cruisers chasing gangbangers up and down the alleys and sidewalk, bullhorns and sirens blazing... Or it's the guy with an old cooler on his back yelling, "Tamale, tamale, tamale!" or Joplin's "The Entertainer" coming from the darn ice cream truck that chronically circles the block, or the neighbor's six barking chihauhuas...

Maybe I need a sound booth just for my sanity! :nutz:

[MJC]

Living near LA Harbor and a block from a major street, outdoor testing is futile.

If it's not a booming basso profundo from an arriving or departing freighter, it's the chronic "beep, beep, beep" of backing trucks or loaders. If it's not diesel trucks rumbling in the distance, it's some knucklehead on a minibike in the alley. If it's not a low rider ghetto blasting the block it's ten kids on skateboards laughing and exclaiming one of a hundred variations of "F#ck!" as loud as they can while enjoying a noisy, clacking ride down the hill. Or it's an LAPD helicopter overheard, LAPD and LASD cruisers chasing gangbangers up and down the alleys and sidewalk, bullhorns and sirens blazing... Or it's the guy with an old cooler on his back yelling, "Tamale, tamale, tamale!" or Joplin's "The Entertainer" coming from the darn ice cream truck that chronically circles the block, or the neighbor's six barking chihauhuas...

Maybe I need a sound booth just for my sanity! :nutz:
Ah,
the luxury of living in rural Nevada with peace and quiet. Until I crank up the JBLs, that is.

[Titanium Dome]

Ah,
the luxury of living in rural Nevada with peace and quiet. Until I crank up the JBLs, that is.

I forget the best part: if I were stupid enough to put my speakers outside, I guarantee someone would try to steal them. :rotfl:

Rural Nevada is very nice up your way. :yes:

[moldyoldy]

I forget the best part: if I were stupid enough to put my speakers outside, I guarantee someone would try to steal them....

Kinda makes you wonder about a few of the posts in "Your Best Find" doesn't it? No mentions if those found on the curb had wires attached.....

Geez, Ti, your ambient's GOTTA suck! How in the world do you maintain such a pleasant demeanor under those conditions? (And how much of that noise is really just West Coast sound?):p

About all I have to worry about is my A/C condensing unit, the occasional bird chirping, and this time of year a few choppers burning up the county's reefer-eradication budget. Oh yeah, I forgot locusts. Pretty easy to squeeze in a few chirps of my own during the lulls. My outdoor ambient levels usually hover in the -60dB range.

My biggest difficulty with OD testing is converting/relating the data to more realistic indoor boundary loading, as I told my HS algebra teacher I'd never need what she had to offer. If I can get the impulse windowing thing mastered, I'll gladly move indoors. Till then, I'm not sharp enough to determine how much is real and how much is room from an indoor RTA plot, and if I wanted to assume, I wouldn't be testing. Even by averaging plots of several mic setups, there's still stuff there I find hard to believe.
One thing I've found very interesting is the comparison of my 1/24/octave FR plots to published factory 1/3/octave plots. Often, there's a whole lot of stuff going on that the factory plots don't show. (Caution note; when considering the purchase of testing products, also consider that you'll learn more about your audio system's deficiencies than you may want to know. Ignorance CAN be bliss....)

Since I've about exhausted my usefullness on the topic, I'll just add an observation that has become obvious throughout my experimentation. The hands- on interaction with an audio measurement system will allow insight and understanding of the complex relationships involved far better than any book (or forum) could ever do. As a learning aid, I think it's the best bang for the buck for anyone wanting a better understanding of all things audio.

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Ignorance CAN be bliss....)



There's the truth...

Ken

[Zilch]

(Caution note; when considering the purchase of testing products, also consider that you'll learn more about your audio system's deficiencies than you may want to know. Ignorance CAN be bliss....)Ain't THAT the truth....


I'll just add an observation that has become obvious throughout my experimentation. The hands- on interaction with an audio measurement system will allow insight and understanding of the complex relationships involved far better than any book (or forum) could ever do. As a learning aid, I think it's the best bang for the buck for anyone wanting a better understanding of all things audio.That, too!

[Flodstroem]

Now, if I had understand this right, if I should buy the "Spectre" software (for $88) I will also need a M-Audio Firewire Solo US35030 Firewire Audio Interface (priced at $ 166 by Amazon for example) including a microphone of the Behringer brand: ECM-8000 (for $ 49 from zZounds.com).

Do I need any further hardwares for to start to make measurements? :hmm:
If not, this will yield a totals of $ 303 (not including custom fees and freight costs to my country) The price level is a minimum for this type of gears I guess. If you count on what this gear will do for you in loudspeaker development, well if I say it this this way the gear does not cost more than one new 15" JBL woofer ("over here" in Norway), and suddenly You get the possibility to check and correct every speaker building projects in the future.....Wohw............:applaud:
Is that true ?

Regards

[Hoerninger]

If you count on what this gear will do for you in loudspeaker development, well if I say it this this way the gear does not cost more than one new 15" JBL woofer ("over here" in Norway), and suddenly You get the possibility to check and correct every speaker building projects in the future.....Wohw............:applaud:
Is that true ?
Yes

The advances in the realm of measurement systems is really amazing. $200 and a computer can get you beyond what could be done with several bays of very expensive test gear only a few years ago.
Have fun!
___________
Peter

[GordonW]

Living near LA Harbor and a block from a major street, outdoor testing is futile.



I was about to say that myself... I can't think of many areas now, where that would be possible...

My favorite outdoor testing photo, is of a setup a bit more "pragmatic" in it's approach- the McIntosh Laboratory setup, courtesy of Roger Russell:

http://www.roger-russell.com/outdoor.jpg

The cool thing, is that for most intents and purpose, it's easy to mathematically "convert" the freespace measurements (ala the Jensen photo above) to half-space measurements... you can get the same info from either...

Regards,
Gordon.

[Mr. Widget]

I have that same boom that I use for my testing... looks like all I need to do is go out to the site of Burning Man, now that everyone has left, and dig a big hole in the ground for my speakers. :applaud:


Widget

[MJC]

I have that same boom that I use for my testing... looks like all I need to do is go out to the site of Burning Man, now that everyone has left, and dig a big hole in the ground for my speakers. :applaud:


Widget
Burning Man, now there is a place I stay away from. The Black Rock Desert, in the hot summer sun, among 50,000 people you don't know.

[JBL 4645]

http://www.trueaudio.com/images/rta_logo1.gif



[/URL]





[URL="http://www.trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm"]http://www.trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm (http://www.trueaudio.com/rta_abt1.htm)

[Don Mascali]

Analyzing help please.

I recently gave up my cheesy Behringer ULTRA-DRIVE PRO DCX2496 for a Yamaha 2040.
The thing I miss is the pulse generator that the Behringer uses for automagically setting the phase/time delay. What can I use short of buying an O'scope?

TIA,
Don M

[Zilch]

Dibs on the DCX for "research".... ;)

[Don Mascali]

Dibs on the DCX for "research".... ;)

PM sent.

[louped garouv]

Burning Man, now there is a place I stay away from. The Black Rock Desert, in the hot summer sun, among 50,000 people you don't know.

nobody I have talked to seems to notice the adverse conditions.... it's all about spiritual enlightenment..... :D

and after a few years, you get to know some of the folks that are "regulars".... (I use the term loosely) ;)