Heresy.......

[mikebake]

Don McR. sometimes weighs in on other forums about the Pioneer HPM series; most of you I presume know the lineage/history
vis a' vis JBL L100 etc.
Anyone have any direct experience comparing the two lines? Sound? Driver quality? Other comparisons, etc?

MBB

[GordonW]

Being someone who owns a pair of HPM900s, and has worked on and listened to MANY L100s (both Century and the later models)...

... at the risk of starting a riot :D , I have to say that the HPM900 sounds better than an L100, in every way.

Both are very dynamic, relative to others in thier size ranges, but the HPM900 actually has a REAL CROSSOVER... as in high and low pass sections for all the drivers.

Also, the cabinet of the HPM900 is the RIGHT size for the woofer... unlike the L100, which could have USED a cabinet the size of the L100... the bass would have been much less boomy.

The tradeoff is, though, that the woofer and midrange driver cones on the HPM900 are REALLY FRAGILE. They're made out of some carbon-based ceramic/plastic, that is EXTREMELY brittle. Many of these systems have ended life with a shattered woofer cone, in fact...

I've owned this pair of HPM900s for about a year now... and I was surprised at first listen, at how just plain competant the system was, once the pads for the mids and highs were adjusted to get rid of some of the excess midrange presence. Editorial changes, really... even in baseline settings, they weren't bad at all...

Regards,
Gordon.

[Mr. Widget]

Is the HPM 900 the model that looked a little like an L-100 with the additional cylindrical super tweeter?

[GordonW]

Yes, that's pretty much it... but the HPM900 was the later model. There was an HPM100, that was closer to the size of the L100, and had an even more similar woofer... but the '900 is what I've got more experience with. AFAIK, the 900 has better bass and is a little smoother overall...

Regards,
Gordon.

[Mr. Widget]

That's right, they had the HPM 100, and the large sloped front HPM 200... kinda like the L-100 and L-200.

I was thinking of the HPM 100. I never saw an HPM 900.

[GordonW]

Now, since you mentioned the HPM200... :bouncy: :yes:

That speaker was a work unto itself... unlike the L200, it's a FIVE-way speaker, with dual 10" woofers, one with a mass ring acting as a "subwoofer", one without a mass ring as a midbass, a 2" dome low-mid, a 5" diameter HPM upper-mid ribbon cylinder, and a 1.75" diameter HPM ribbon cylinder tweeter. Quite a complex speaker...

I can say, without equivocation, having rebuilt a pair for a customer (refoamed woofers, repaired HPM module connections), that they were simply, IMHO, one of the top 20 finest speaker systems, of ANY price, of the 1970s. Sounded a LOT like a "poor man's McIntosh ML2"... which makes sense given the similarities in general layout. VERY punchy, surprisingly smooth, GOOD low bass. :thmbsup: :thmbsup:

If I ever find a pair laying around for cheap, they're definitely MINE... :scoot:

Regards,
Gordon.

[GordonW]

Now that I think about it, they DID have a model sort of "analogous" to the L300... the HPM1500/HPM150 (Japanese/US model). 15" paper cone woofer, 4.5" paper cone mid, 1.75" cone tweeter and an HPM ribbon cylinder, mounted in a concentric-ring waveguide on top of the midrange subenclosure (the proverbial "robot head" kind of thing).

Quite an impressive speaker... especially if you, like the one I repaired recently here (couldn't get the original tweeters anywhere) with a pair of the venerable old Philips AD11600T8 tweeters, in place of the 1.75" cones (bolt in fit!). MONDO punch, good balance once the levels are adjusted right. Overall, VERY listenable. No L300, but people who like the sound of L300s, would probably agree to its general sonic character...

BTW: the woofers in the HPM200 were also paper cone... they didn't go to the ceramic-esque graphite cones until later (HPM500, HPM900, etc.)


Regards,
Gordon.

[GordonW]

BTW- here's a picture of my HPM900s, just so we can see what I'm talking about. They're about 2" taller than an L100, about 3 inches wider, and about 5 inches deeper... just about 2.75 cubic feet internal volume.

Regards,
Gordon.

[boputnam]

Originally posted by GordonW
... at the risk of starting a riot :D

I have to say that the {insert any 43xx series cabinet here} sounds better than an L100, in every way. :rotfl:

Aw, come-on... I let it ride for quite a while!

Anyway - Gordon, can you post a better pic of those HPM900's? :yes: Maybe get the setting away from that mirror - flashback :shock: (literally...) closed-down the aperture.

[4313B]

"can you post a better pic of those HPM900's?"

Good grief! Why!?
Isn't there a policy against littering on this fine site? :D

[thoots]

Folks,

I can provide some perspective with kind of a "next generation" Pioneer speaker -- the Phase Linear P-530's. These were Pioneer speakers, sold under the Phase Linear brand after Pioneer purchased Phase Linear in the late 1970's. The P-530's are considerably larger than the L100's, as you can see in this picture:

http://home.comcast.net/~thoots4/p-530_l100_03.jpg

The HPM-100 cabinets are even slightly larger than these P-530 cabinets. And, yes, that's one of my L150A speakers in the background, sporting a 104H-3 midrange driver....

As you can see, the P-530 dispensed with the earlier HPM series cone tweeter and HPM super-tweeter, and replaced them with a "boronized titamium" dome tweeter, all wrapped up in a mirror-imaged driver layout.

So, how do they sound?? Very simply, the P-530's pretty much laid waste to the L100's. Actually, they were kind of like "super-L100's" -- just as "dynamic," if not more so, with a similar feeling of "punch" to the bass and clarity in the high end, but, again, "even more so." The dome tweeter certainly provided a better, more modern high end, and the P-530's "imaged" better, with much more of a sense of "space" to the presentation. To a very great extent, I took my L100's down, and replaced them with the P-530's.

Here's even more perspective for you:

http://home.comcast.net/~thoots4/jbl_lineup_800c.jpg

From the inside out, that's a pair of L166's, 4312A's, and L100's. I really didn't care for the L166's much at all -- I played with the controls 'till the cows came home trying to get a balance I liked out of them. I preferred the L100's over the L166's by miles and miles and miles. But, I really liked the 4312A's more than the L100's, also by a mile. With very much the same L100 bass, the 4312A's added a very competent high end, plus a VERY nice midrange that had a very "spacious" nature to it.

In the end, I prefer the L150A's to all of the above, though that would be with the inclusion of the 104H-3 midranges, which I stole out of the 4312A's. While the bass may not be quite as "dynamic" as the L100 bass, the depth and power of the L150A bass is simply visceral, and the rest of the frequency range has a quality that shows all of the "bookself" boxes mentioned above to have a certain amount of a "boxy" sound to them.

I hope that helps the discussion -- the Phase Linear / Pioneer driver quality was certainly the closest I've seen to JBL quality in my experience. And, those are some much bigger boxes they come in! :p

[Ian Mackenzie]

Where's our resident L100 trasher...muhahahahaha

Ian:o

[4313B]

Hello thoots!
I was wondering who this picture belonged to!
Can you please repost the original?
Thanks! :)

[mikebake]

Ever see the Phase Linears for sale? What do they bring? They look really nice! Nice stuff you have there!!!! Thanks for sharing the photos!!

MBB

[boputnam]

Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
Where's our resident L100 trasher...muhahahahaha 'nuff said! thoots covered my part, brilliantly! :yes:

I felt warm-and-fuzzy with the rating of the 4312's - I concur, and think I got closer to the described L150 bottom-end from my 4312's by using the L150 LF, the 128H (swapping-out the 2213H). And ALL of us know who recommended THAT swap! ;)

But thoots, you've topped us on post construction - how'd you get images imbedded into your post, rather than appended. :confused: Now THAT I admire...

You are here-by dubbed the "Bookshelf Cabinet King" (notwithstanding the L150's ;) ).

So, now, what's on all that VHS media - some ADAT's, or what? :yes: :yes:

*****

Afterthought: that is your Wall of Sound, and those are miles of Dead shows? Huh?

For a first post, that was a zinger...

[4313B]

"So, now, what's on all that VHS media"

Yeah! And how do you keep from erasing them with all those loudspeakers parked so near them?

[thoots]

Folks.

Hehehe. Thanks for the kind comments. :p

Let's see if I can answer a few questions!!

1. -- Original photos? I've got many, many more here:

http://www.pbase.com/thoots

Not just speakers, but bunches of other stuff for your amusement, too. But, yeah, lots of speakers!! Soon to be added will be some ADS L-810's, which I'll be picking up tomorrow.... :p

2. Phase Linears for sale? Indeed, you don't see them very often. I've seen about a grand total of three pairs (at least, of the Pioneer-based ones) on eBay, but I haven't been looking really regularly until recently. These set me back $400 for the pair, and quite unbelievably, the seller was like about three blocks away from my house! :p

3. Posting pictures? Gotta get 'em uploaded into some kind of "web space," which often comes with your ISP account. Then, you just figure out the URL to them, and then hit that "IMG" button in the message posting box here....

4. VHS media? Tons of stuff -- 20 years of recording all kinds of whatnot. I kept track in a notebook 20 years ago, but that got away from me soon after. So, "beats me." I'm now going through those tapes and recording kind of "highlight reel" snippets onto DVD with a Panasonic DMR-E50 DVD recorder. Oh, and I usually don't have a roomful of speakers in front of them, so they haven't suffered any premature erasing, as far as I can tell!

5. First post? Well, on this iteration of the board, I guess. I've been here for years, though. Got the L150A's via a note posted on the first version of the forum, from a local seller about an hour up the road. The L150A's were PERFECT -- not even a scratch. Plus, they had the oak finish, which fits with my furniture much better than walnut. Incredible score!!

Finally, one thing to add to my first post. I forgot to say something that I think sums up the Phase Linears: "These are what the L166's should have been." Sorry, but the L166's are just too "dead" for an old L100 fan like me. (Had a pair of 4311's back in 1978, for a bit of reference there...) The P-530's have the dome tweeter and the imaging and smoother response and all that good stuff, but they're still on the "more dynamic" side of things like the L100's are.

Dang, this is FUN, ain't it?? :p

thoots

[boputnam]

Man, you must live in some isobarically sealed environment - sorta a JBL 12-in Museum. Ha!

So very cool. That is one hella fine collection - cheers to your pedantic ways! I really appreciate the visual of that line of cabinets side-by-side. Wow...

Now, I gotta go explore this "IMG" thingy - you have smoked me on that... :yes:

Stickaround, hey?