4343 x 250ti

[Godofredo]

Hi everyone!
As a proud owner of a JBL 4343 Studio Monitor, I am a little lost and ask for some advice.
I just bought a pair of JBL 250 TI, and it is sounding spectacular wonderful.
I am not saying it is better than the 4343, but it is close.
Any advice anyone, please?
Thanks a lot for your time and your help.
Kind regards,

Godofredo

[JBL Dog]

Godofredo:

Are you in a situation where you can keep both sets? Or, do you have to choose one and sell the other?

:hmm:

I have a set of 4343's in the "Dog-house". Wifey won't let me put them where the general public can see them. 4343 = very low WAF.

:banghead:

The C-45 Metregon is on display in the living room, very high WAF. I truly enjoy both. The Metergon sounds fantastic, but it's no 4343. When I want the music to be intense, I head to the "Dog-house" for the 4343's! Background level? Definitely the Metregon!

:yes:

Dog sez: "Enjoy them both! It's not like we're dealing with Radio Shack's finest holding a candle to the 4343's!"

:D

This message comes from JBL Dog :band:

[4313B]

Hello Godofredo,

First
"I am not saying it is better than the 4343, but it is close."
Listen for a month and then tell us what you think again :)

"Any advice anyone, please?"

Yeah, keep them both. IMO you have very good examples of two of JBL's best design approaches. On the one hand you have the large format four-way Studio Monitor design; transducers with tightly controlled bandwidths and dispersion characteristics that optimize each transducer's performance. On the other hand you have the best of the Home Hi-Fi four-way designs featuring very smooth, wide-band transducers coupled with first order filters.

[Tom Loizeaux]

I have a similar "problem". My 4343s sound great, but when I listen to my 4312s with a JBL sub, I wonder if I could be happy with the smaller speakers. I was going back and forth just last night and again came to the conclusion that, though the 4312s sound great, the 4343s seem to handle the music with a little less smear or compression. Hitting piano keys hard, for example, sounds a little muted on the 4312s when compared to the clarity of the notes (probably from the 2420 compression drivers) on the 4343s. The low end of the 4343s is maybe slightly fuller (almost boomy at times) where the low end of the 4312s is more open. With the addition of the PB12 to the 4312s I do get low end that tells me there's something there at 35 Hz.
If I had to decide which to keep, I'd have a tough decision. I suspect that the 4343s would win...since I already have a place for them in the corners of my basement music room.
Fortunatly, I don't have to make that decision.

Tom

[Ken Andrew]

I have 4315 in the study for me and L250 for the wife in the lounge. So my comments are subjective based on past auditioning of 4343. My comments are based on my experiences, my rooms, my software, and my hardware.

The L250 tweeter is much better. The 4343 has more grunt. The L250 is smoother/cleaner overall and wife's first choice.

The 4343 can be played very much louder. When you go from the studio monitor to L250 there appears to be a loss of dynamic range/vitality/liveliness.

The L250 is much better for reproducing classical music. The L250 L-R imaging is superior. Neither has good Front-Back imaging.

The 4343 is much more sensitive to amplifier and source material quality. The foam surrounds on the 4343 decay quicker and are more expensive to replace.

If anyone in Australia has a pair of 4343 to sell e-mail me.

[4313B]

"When you go from the studio monitor to L250 there appears to be a loss of dynamic range/vitality/liveliness."

This was improved in the 250Ti. Both the 104H and 044Ti have greater dynamic range than their predecessors. The filter was competely redesigned.

Biasing the 250Ti filter results in further improvement. In fact, the designer of the L250 and 250Ti considers the difference between a stock 250Ti and a biased 250Ti "staggering".

*****

"I was going back and forth just last night and again came to the conclusion that, though the 4312s sound great, the 4343s seem to handle the music with a little less smear or compression."

Yeah, there is simply no way the 12 in the 4312 can compete with the 10 in the 4343 in the range that the 10 is operating in.

[steveh]

Giskard,
Very interesting information with regards to the 250Ti's. Couple of questions. When the 250Ti's were available, JBL recommended the use of B460 sub. Was this a single B460 or one B460 for each 250Ti? If the recommendation was one B460, would two B460's offer significant improvement? Second question, what does biasing the crossovers consist of? Finally, with the 250Ti's not having any horn drivers, is there any appreciable difference in the use of tube amps versues solid state? Thanks for any information, it is appreciated.

Steve

[4313B]

Hi Steve,

"When the 250Ti's were available, JBL recommended the use of B460 sub. Was this a single B460 or one B460 for each 250Ti? If the recommendation was one B460, would two B460's offer significant improvement?"

I don't recall ever hearing that two be used as opposed to one from Marketing. It has been my experience that a properly set up pair of 250Ti's do not require any VLF reinforcement from subwoofers for music reproduction.

As for subs in general, at first it was considered sufficient to add a single, properly set up subwoofer to produce or augment VLF response. The JBL B212 came with detailed instructions and a test record to facilitate proper set up. Then it was found that stereo subs offered improved response. Now it appears that two subs, each operating in summed mono, should be considered as the minimum solution. Harman has several white papers dealing with subwoofers in general. I think I ran across a similar white paper from JBL Pro as well.

"Second question, what does biasing the crossovers consist of?"

Several threads have been started dealing with this issue. You can search for "charge", "couple", or "bias" and I believe Robh3606 was one of the thread starters :)

[Ken Andrew]

I had a single B460. The JBL brochure only shows one per system. There is no benefit from two because the stereo source is 'summed' in the cross-over and also a single B460 is extremely loud so more than one is unecessary.

See my other post on the value of the B460. It is not required for hi-fi. It is essential for home theatre.

Check that your listening room is of adequate construction strength and has the dimensions necessary to reproduce the wavelengths the B460 reproduces.

I found vast improvement in sound quality of the studio monitors by using a tube pre-amp with SS power amp. The class A ML2 (I used for 10 years) doesn't come close to the same quality.

I haven't tried tube gear with the L250 but I doubt it would make any difference at all. The L250 is not that hardware sensitive.

[leif]

I am these days considering the Ti250 vs a pair of 4435
I have never heard the 4435, and wonder if any of you can help me with the choice. I love the look and the sound of the Ti`s, but love also the look of the 4435. What to do when the price is the same for both couple of speakers. I listen to pop/rock only. No classical music.

[4313B]

"There is no benefit from two because the stereo source is 'summed' in the cross-over and also a single B460 is extremely loud so more than one is unecessary."

There are definite benefits from running more than one sub. One reason for using multiple subs is to reduce standing wave modes within a listening room. Back when I didn't know any better I ran single summed mono subs and fought every damn room I put one in. It has long been accepted practice to use at least two. Just recently I tried yet another single 2245H sub in yet another rather small listening room and regardless of where I placed it there were simply too many peaks and dips. I added a second 2245H sub and, true to form, it all came together just fine. It wouldn't surprise me to find that those who dislike subs have never run more than one.

Hell, G.T. is busy building four 1500AL-based custom subs for his personal use. Not one, not two, but four. And I can assure you he has no interest in blowing out his hearing.

*****

I've added a couple of links that might be interesting.

Tech Note available for downloading:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v3n03.pdf

White Papers available for downloading:

http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default

[4313B]

Originally posted by leif
I am these days considering the Ti250 vs a pair of 4435
I have never heard the 4435, and wonder if any of you can help me with the choice. I love the look and the sound of the Ti`s, but love also the look of the 4435. What to do when the price is the same for both couple of speakers. I listen to pop/rock only. No classical music.
Oooo, bad choice to be faced with :(
You're going to have to do some serious A/B listening to make the right decision for your tastes.

[Earl K]

Hi
Just to add to Giskards comments. I've found some very similar benefits from my MTM experiments. My two le14a woofers display ( on a RTA ) an expected cancellation (derived from the distance of the speaker to the floor ). When even a single le10 is added in ( sitting on top of the horn ), this quite significant null ( at around 225hz ) is nicely filled in. Though the le10a is in a .5 cu' sealed enclosure there's even a tangible increase in LF information below 70 hz. This addition to LF information is measurable on a RTA.

regards <> Earl K :)

[4313B]

Hi Earl,
Just out of curiosity, how high off the floor do you have those LE14's? Similar to the LE14 height in a 240Ti or 250Ti?

[Earl K]

Hi Giskard

- They are still in the original S99 cabinets that came with the purchase.
- Cabinets are flipped - with port down & woofer at the top of box .
- Floor to center of le14 cone is 15.5". ( math-wise I don't think that supports my just mentioned null - I guess I should drag the RTA back to that room and remeasure ).


<> Earl K :)

Well. I just remeasured

- Null seems to be centered in the 315hz - 400 hz area.

- As first mentioned - the addition of the extra 10" driver above it really helps fill in this null.

- This was my intention of adding to the post. The point is more transducers can be used to "average-down" room induced, acoustic, anamolies .

[4313B]

Thanks Earl,

I was just curious. Depending on how I flip my LE14 enclosures I have about 16" from floor to centerline. I know G.T. designed the 250Ti to get that LE14 off the floor a specific distance in order to compliment the range it was operating in.

"The point is more transducers can be used to "average-down" room induced, acoustic, anamolies ."

Yes definitely. One can run a single sub but one should also build or buy an EQ to go with it.

This looks pretty fun:
http://sound.westhost.com/project84.htm :)

[Robh3606]

Morning Earl, Giskard

What's the deal with floor bounce?? Is it simply the the height off the floor?? Mine is 29.5 inches to the center of the 145. That works out to a 1/2 wavelength frequency of 230HZ. If that is true then you wouldn't you also expect to see a 3dB peak at 460hz from the in phase summation of the reflection. Directivity changes with frequency so wouldn't this influence the strength of the reinforcing reflection. I also thought that it was the frequency where the path lengths of the direct sound and the first reflection worked out to 1/2 wavelength difference. If that is the case would listener distance and height come into play because of the geometry? Is it all of the above??

Thanks Rob:)

[Earl K]

Hi Robh

- Perhaps, you should start a new thread for this topic. It's actually a very broad topic.

- The predicted analomies are easily measurable ( with your 8024 ) to determine whether or not they showup in your specific situation. The White Papers (http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default) by Dr. Floyd Toole on the Harman site illuminate this subject really quite well.

- I use a 1/2 wavelength formula, just as a guideline/reference because the speaker isn't acting as single point source ( from just the center of the cone ). The effective cancellation occurs over a broader range dependant on the diameter of the cone & actual acoustic center factors. You are right that there is probably an expected spike but a lot of systems are crossed over before that happens - but not mine. Once again , in my situation, the addition of a second driver in my MTM setup mitigates just about all the "bad effects" from floor reflections. I even hear an palpable increase in the "speed" from the whole combination. And now of course we are way off topic.

regards <. Earl K

[4313B]

"And now of course we are way off topic."

What topic? :p

[Earl K]

Well, I thought the topic was having to choose a 4 way; 4343 vis a vis the 250ti . But like most here, once a topic gets into it's second page , I'm willing to wander into/comment on other areas.

regards <. EarlK :duck:

[4313B]

Oh yeah! That was the topic :p
I'd personally hate to have to choose between them. Ultimately I would obviously select the 250Ti, but the 4343 is so damn fun and I could definitely see a few of my friends choosing the 4343 instead :)

[Earl K]

Well , I don't have the available footprint that a 15" speaker enclosure requires - so I'd opt for the 14" based system. I barely have the height required by most of the larger MTM systems - so I'm really restricted.

regards <> EarlK :coolness:

[boputnam]

Originally posted by Giskard
I added a second 2245H sub and, true to form, it all came together just fine. Sounds like you're gettin' mighty close to a 4345 to me... ;)

and...


It wouldn't surprise me to find that those who dislike subs have never run more than one.
Great point. I dislike subs, but love the 4345 and 4350-55. I should find someone to try this.

I did notice at a recent Joe Cocker show (grab it, if he's anywhere near your town :thmbsup: ) they were running what seemed to be paired 2234's in subcabinets, stage right/left. :coolness:

[4313B]

"Sounds like you're gettin' mighty close to a 4345 to me... "
I've been building 2245H subs for over twenty years, this is just one more pair in a long string of them. :)

"I dislike subs, but love the 4345 and 4350-55."
Hmmm... I'll bow out of this discussion right about now ;)

[Ian Mackenzie]

Bo there Boy,

Please explain yourself:

"Great point. I dislike subs, but love the 4345 and 4350-55. I should find someone to try this. "

I'd love to heard your perception on this topic....by morning

My take on this like all sub stuff has been beaten to death many times before...but 2245s in the 4345s are tuned differently and also do not incur same the group delay associated with crossing over a typical sub @80 hertz, this appears to be the culprit with integration of subs / mains in many cases, apart from running the subs too loud.

Ian lights out


:o

[Godofredo]

Hi everyone,

I'd like to say a big thank you to you all for the answers and advices.
I'll keep both models. Your answers and advices were invaluable.
Once again and again, thank you very very much.

Regards,

Godofredo

[boputnam]

Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
I'd love to heard your perception on this topic....by morning
My only feeble point is, the subs I've heard in home systems are mud (Widget's upperfloor system being uniquely different). The 4345's you featured are not muddy at all.

It was posited that subs might be better in pairs, rather than single. I'm keen to taste-test that, since the 4345's are paired, and I really like their ULF sound, eh?

But hey - we're way long onto Page Two, and you know what Earl sez...

[Ian Mackenzie]

Well just disconnect one woofer and you'll know the answer :D

But be careful, it may upset the fluid balance in your inner ear.

Ian

[4313B]

"It was posited that subs might be better in pairs, rather than single."

Might??? :(

At least read the Harman white papers. They "might" shed some light. :)

"the subs I've heard in home systems are mud"

Hmmm, never heard 121/124/2203 subs eh?
136/2231 subs?
LE14 subs?
2235 subs?
2245 subs?
2242 subs?

I suppose any of these can be made to sound like mud if one doesn't have a clue as to what they are dealing with :D

[boputnam]

ok, OK, OK!!

Dammit, I meant the crummy little typically black meager little cube consumer subs that people attach to an already lame system. Whew! Does that help! Man it's TOUGH out here :duck:

No, oh esteemed SubOne, I have not heard all them, and you knew that! Meanie! :p

And you, you DownUnder DIYer, I'm gonna disconnect BOTH 2245's, that will show YOU!! Uh, wait a minute... :hmm:

Come on, gimme some L100's to bash - I need a lift!

[4313B]

"I meant the crummy little typically black meager little cube consumer subs that people attach to an already lame system."

Oh! That stuff!

I wouldn't know anything about that stuff!
There are some things a pig just won't do...

[Mr. Widget]

Hey I thought a subwoofer was that box that you get with those little Bose cubes.

Gosh.:D

To be fair to Bo, most subs aren't very good, and even most good ones are set too high (SPL) for a natural sound in many demos.

Additionally, for a properly set up HT you want the sub 6 to 10dB hotter than you would for a neutral music playback system. Unfortunately most systems that are used for both music and HT are not that easy to make this adjustment every time you go from HT to music.

[4313B]

"Hey I thought a subwoofer was that box that you get with those little Bose cubes."

I thought a subwoofer was a doberman on a u-boat.

"Unfortunately most systems that are used for both music and HT are not that easy to make this adjustment every time you go from HT to music."

That is a fact.

[Robh3606]

Hello Mr. Widget

"Unfortunately most systems that are used for both music and HT are not that easy to make this adjustment every time you go from HT to music."

If you have fullrange mains just keep the sub off when the tunes are on. Works fine set and forget. Also I hear what you saying about HT sub level but I don't set it that high. May be a couple of DB higher. May be good for the crash and boom but in unbalances ALL the backround sounds/music and is more natural not up that high IMHO.

[boputnam]

Hmmm... I'll bow out of this discussion right about now ;)

[4313B]

Originally posted by boputnam
Hmmm... I'll bow out of this discussion right about now ;)
Yeah well you should with two 4345's sitting in your listening room! Off the top of my head I think that nothing short of a pair of 2242H subs would add anything to what you already have and that would be mostly for DVD playback.

I suppose you could do this for fun....
Plug one of the 4345 ports and apply a 6 dB boost at 25 Hz.
Plug two of the 4345 ports and apply a 6 dB boost at 20 Hz.
You have a 5234A right?

[Ian Mackenzie]

No no, don't go....you enjoy this more than L100 bashing...

Actually, whne i was musing with the software simulator for the 4345 I called upton scientist Witold Waldron, the developer of Caldsod to ask why so many software models don't agree with the T/Tables.

Anyway we week spent a week or two looking at empirical tuning values and talked a fair bit about the percpetion of human earing to variations in low frequency amplitude in view of the obvious audible changes with different tunings.

There are a number of AES papers on sub woofee development, even using many subs all over the room etc. I recall the ear/human brain is very sensitive to low frequency variations in absolute flatness and delay up to certain threshold.

Ian

[boputnam]

Originally posted by Giskard
You have a 5234A right? No early alzheimer's, there, yer correct - I soitenly do have one.

And, yea, I know and am not personally seeking anything more. But with the 4345's getting taste-tested by so many friends and neighbors (some when they wish they were sleeping... :moon: ) they're all getting VLF envy, and wanna move-up the food chain.