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mikebake
09-22-2003, 07:19 PM
Opinions? With a -3db at 54, are these things used with subs in studios?

Ron K
09-23-2003, 12:37 PM
I heard the LSR32 and 28 in Performance Audios Studio in SLC. They were using the LSR12 subwoofer with them. Very very good sound. Hearing these caused me to choose the kevlar mid and tweeter of the LSR32 for my system I built thats described on another thread.
Regards Ron K

spkrman57
05-19-2007, 05:11 PM
I found them to be very analytical.

They are very critical concerning source audio gear, room placement and the total room treatment as a whole.

I used Audio Note CD player w/tube buffered output - Blue Circle tubed preamp - Almorro push-pull/parallel 6550 (125 wpc).

Interconnects are Zu silver wire(unshielded).

The LSR 32's were toed in to 60 degrees as per the manual.

I found them to be very revealing and not lacking of bass when pushed with sufficient wattage. Downfall to this is I don't like listening to my audio system at very high spls for very long.

If not for the last item, they would be in my system forever.

By the way, my Soundcraftsman PM860 amp(MOSfet) 300 wpc @ 4 ohms met the minimum standards as did the Almorro tube amp.

These speakers would be best with 400 to 800 wpc amp of high quality.

Just my 2 cents added to the LSR 32 mystique!

Ron

mikebake
05-19-2007, 05:23 PM
Why do they have to be listened to at high SPL?

spkrman57
05-20-2007, 07:24 AM
Mike,

They don't open up and deliver the goods at the lower wattage levels. :(

Once they have some wattage behind them they do a lot of things very well!:D

Also, I have them 14" off the ground to place the mid/tweeter at my ear level when seated in the listening position.

I also have to comment that they take EQ on the bottom end very well and there is plenty of bottom end in those 252G's, even in the 1.8' cabinet.:blink:

What was your observations???;)

Regards, Ron



Why do they have to be listened to at high SPL?

mikebake
05-20-2007, 07:48 AM
Mike,

They don't open up and deliver the goods at the lower wattage levels. :(

What was your observations???;)

Regards, Ron

The same.
Turn them up to make them sound more balanced, and then the forward midrange becomes even more forward.
It is said that the only real fix would be to make them a 4 way.

spkrman57
05-20-2007, 08:07 AM
The same.
Turn them up to make them sound more balanced, and then the forward midrange becomes even more forward.
It is said that the only real fix would be to make them a 4 way.

My amp/preamp/cd player are all vacum tube and have a softer presentation.

I would cringe if I had to listen to these with SS gear as tubed sound is much softer! There still is a slight forward midrange sound to it, but it is tolerable.

You should come down and hear them on my system to compare against what you heard with SS gear!

Ron

spkrman57
05-20-2007, 08:09 AM
It is said that the only real fix would be to make them a 4 way.


Maybe a dedicated processor would work well.

Ron

speakerdave
05-20-2007, 08:30 AM
It is a very accurate speaker--some would call it analytical--but I was never bothered by a "forward midrange" in the LSR32, maybe because I was coming off of Jubals and before that 604-8G's. But when listening to them analytically I did learn to look to my electronics and source material. Some CD's that sounded fine to me before turned out to have obvious problems. I put my classic tubed preamp in the closet to wait for a rebuild. The LSR's and my Philips SACD1000 made wonderful music together, but when that died and I replaced it with a Denon 5900 the LSR's were too analytical again.

There's also the question of what your room is like. The LSR's have only 1dB selectability in the woofer/midrange-tweeter balance, unlike home speakers, which usually have the level controls to compensate for the sound characteristics of the room--the LSR's being intended for use in a recording studio where the room is prepared to be part of the system. My room has deep-pile carpet, cottage cheese ceiling and lots of big soft furniture, not to mention the long-haired cat and large, upholstered audiophile.

David

Mr. Widget
05-20-2007, 09:06 AM
My room has deep-pile carpet... and large, upholstered audiophile.:applaud: :rotfl: :applaud:


Widget

spkrman57
05-20-2007, 12:53 PM
I have foam and other such pieces on the walls(no SAF to contend with) and I sit approx 6' from the speakers in a triangle configuration as the manual suggests.

I run the LSR32's with 0 db att on the HF as the tubed grear does a great job of smoothing things out.

Like I said earlier, if they sounded as good at lower wattage levels(normal listening levels that is), I would not hesitate to keep them.

These speakers would be great for a rock and roll music lover who likes high spls during playback!

Ron

Zilch
05-20-2007, 02:31 PM
Hang on, now, these get subs with RMC doo-dah to complete the system, no?

At lower listening levels, Fletcher-Munson, Robinson-Datson, et. al. work against the bass response:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_loudness_curve

Ian Mackenzie
05-20-2007, 02:40 PM
Zilch,

I have heard them and he's right.

Most monitoring is done and very high levels in case you were'nt aware.

Zilch
05-20-2007, 03:07 PM
I have heard them and he's right.Right about what? That they need EQ or the recommended sub for low-level listening?

Tell me a reason ANY speakers would have to be cranked to sound good, other than loudness contouring.

Note: There's action at the high end, as well....

spkrman57
05-20-2007, 03:58 PM
Zilch,

I have found them to do exactly just that!

They would be right at home in the right recording studio!

And I have found out they are not as bass shy as the specs indicate! The 252G reminds me in part of the venerable LE14 series driver in that they are very much pitch perfect in the bass note reproductions. Just not as much output and as low as the LE14 drivers.

Just not made for home Hi-Fi use is all!

Ron

Zilch
05-20-2007, 04:28 PM
I have found them to do exactly just that!Well, we need to figure that out, then. :hmm:

[Maybe the Cat knows.... :p ]

slxrti
05-20-2007, 05:50 PM
Right about what? That they need EQ or the recommended sub for low-level listening?

Tell me a reason ANY speakers would have to be cranked to sound good, other than loudness contouring.

Note: There's action at the high end, as well....

Hi, I was under the impression that the LSR's are very linear (input vs output). maybe it's the human hearing effecting low level listening.

My pair sit on top of the 4430's, In comparison between the two the 4430 have extended bass with a bright top end. I dd not notice a peak in midrange LSR mid range.

My amp is a citation 7.1, which replaced a citation 16. The 7.1 can make the 4430's sing (neutral presentation).

slxrti

speakerdave
05-20-2007, 06:12 PM
. . . . I'd print you some of the off-record comments on them, but why ruin someones heaven? . . . .

Oh, please.

I'd be interested in seeing a run-down of the associated equipment--

And I'd be interested to know if all the people who are dissatisfied with them are listening to new ones, and how much of a break-in they've given them.

David

Edit: Quality control: When I got mine, used, the sealing gasket for one of the midrange cans was missing. Have no idea how that happened, but that speaker did not sound right until I installed a gasket.

Zilch
05-20-2007, 06:14 PM
Hi, I was under the impression that the LSR's are very linear (input vs output). Maybe it's the human hearing effecting low level listening.That's what I'm contending here.

The assertion is common, with many speakers: "These don't come into their own until you really CRANK them...." Why? Because the perceived balance shifts at different SPLs, is what.

Other than greater distortion, what's the difference in the behavior of the speakers themselves?

I can appreciate there might be some non-linearities in the loading of a closed-box system as the air "spring" is more greatly compressed with increased excursion, but are such effects significant in comparison to the known influence of uniform loudness contours?


Oh, please.Exactly.

If LSRs are great for the studio but suck for home use, I certainly would like to know what precisely is the defining performance distinction.... :yes:

Ian Mackenzie
05-20-2007, 07:03 PM
Right about what? That they need EQ or the recommended sub for low-level listening?

Tell me a reason ANY speakers would have to be cranked to sound good, other than loudness contouring.

Note: There's action at the high end, as well....

It comes down to practical experience and using the product for the intended application.

slxrti
05-20-2007, 07:14 PM
That's what I'm contending here.

If LSRs are great for the studio but suck for home use, I sure would like to know what is the defining performance distinction.... :yes:

I was under the impression that response in the Hor/Ver axis's can play a major role in voicing of a speaker. My thought's are, the response is measured on a single hor. plane and does not account for room issues and discontinuities in the response.

The single review I read stated that the LSR were very impressive and exceeded JBL's past efforts (including the 4430's).

slxrti

spkrman57
05-20-2007, 08:54 PM
From what I have heard listening to these monitors they would truly be at home in a recording studio.

By spending many hours listening to them in my home, they make you love them or hate them depending on the music source!

Ron

speakerdave
05-20-2007, 09:33 PM
When the LSR32's showed up on the tent sale (for a little more than half of what I paid for mine used) a couple of people asked me about them. Whether they bought them on my say so or not I don't know, but they did go ahead and buy them, so I'm sorry to see this disappointment and am curious to find out the source of the problem.

I noted from the beginning of my posting about them see--"preliminary report"--that they were very revealing of electronics and source materials. I also noted, perhaps on another thread, that my tube power amps did not do well with them, and that may suggest the impedance goes lower than 4 ohms. They performed best for me with my Philips SACD1000 playing straight into my McIntosh MC2200. Putting a preamp in line was always clearly audible.

They were obviously more accurate than the 4333A's, which I tried in the same system. The 4333A's sounded euphonic to me in comparison.

The SACD1000 was a very expensive (initially) player designed to prove the validity of the SACD recording technology. I believe you would still need to pay multiple thousands of dollars for comparable sound today.

Anyway, if you all decide to pass the LSR32's along I trust you will be able to recover your outlay.

David

Zilch
05-20-2007, 11:13 PM
I was under the impression that response in the Hor/Ver axis's can play a major role in voicing of a speaker. My thought's are, the response is measured on a single hor. plane and does not account for room issues and discontinuities in the response.From the specs, LSR is about the opposite, i.e., uniform power response, which may be part of the problem:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/recording/lsr32.pdf

They're not showing the off-axis response there, but the spatially averaged and first reflection response curves indicate accomplishment of the LSR design objective:




Instead of focusing on a simple measure such as on-axis frequency response, LSR designs require much better control over dispersion via transducer selection and crossover frequency design. Critical decisions of image placement, EQ, balance and timbre are typically made within +/- 15 vertically and +/- 30 horizontally. This workspace is where the engineer, producer and artist make critical mixing decisions and this is the area that LSR is optimized for superb in room response. By incorporating LSR into the system design requirements, placement rules are relaxed, a more stable image is maintained and off-axis coloration is minimized.


Power compression depresses the midrange 1.5 dB at 100 watts, but that's playing damn loud on a 90 dB system, I'd say.... :dont-know

More info here:

http://www.jblpro.com/LSR/PDF/JBL.tn_v3_2A.pdf

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v3n03.pdf

Ian Mackenzie
05-21-2007, 02:42 AM
Regardless of what the graphs on the literature present they are setup to operate in a studio environment in near or mid field operation.

Fluctuations of +-0.5 db at the listening position are critical for accurate balance and even more so when the system has an overall linear flatness.

The heavily treated studio environment is very different to any home setting most would envisage here hence of comments we are seeing.

Robh3606
05-21-2007, 06:34 AM
I'm sorry to see this disappointment

Don't be they won't be everyones cup of tea and used outside of the enviornment they were designed for it will be hit or miss depending on the room and the persons subjective likes and dislikes.

Rob:)

4313B
05-21-2007, 08:05 AM
I'm sorry to see this disappointmentWhat Rob said.

Think how Greg felt when some people were tearing up his Everest II's; People reading text and looking at graphs and then proclaiming them lacking. But the people that matter went out and bought a pair and the armchair speaker designers are left with having to find another model to whine about.

What we discuss in private about alot of this stuff just flat out doesn't belong on a public forum. This thread is a great example of that. For those of you that like this particular loudspeaker here is a positive post:
Speaking of monitors, have you heard the current LSR-32? This is the monitor used by John Eargle and Drew Daniels. Drew states it is the lowest distortion monitor (particularly the new 5" mid) that he has heard, and in his opinion, the best that JBL has ever made. I had a chance to listen to them for an extended period and was very impressed. However, he was running them through a Sigtech room correction device so I'm not sure how much of the impressive sound was due to the monitor or the Sigtech.

timc
05-21-2007, 08:17 AM
Hi.

Im actually considering buying a pair for LSR6332's....You think they would match my Crown K2 amplifier?

Might be using room correction also......dunno yet.

Best regards Tim.

Don C
05-21-2007, 10:11 AM
I only have one of them, so I can't comment about how they would sound in a stereo pair. I'm using it as a center channel speaker, used for 5.1 music with my XPLs, it's excellent. They have set the crossover point from the woofer to the midrange unusually low. It means that vocals tend to come from the midrange instead of the woofer, more of a point source than an array, and with no crossover affecting the vocals. I think that this is particularly important for a center channel. Most dedicated center channel speakers have two midrange speakers, which causes the dispersion to be narrowed. Not so with the single midrange of the LSR.
I'm very happy with mine. I was listening to the Beatles Love the other day, and John's voice was fantastic, it sounded like he was right there in the room.

mikebake
05-21-2007, 10:45 AM
I deleted one post; the other wouldn't allow me. Feel free to.

Zilch
05-21-2007, 11:09 AM
Regardless of what the graphs on the literature present they are setup to operate in a studio environment in near or mid field operation.Indeed, and the manual defines nearfield as 1 - 1.5m, midfield as 2 - 3m. Ron's listening at 6'.

The manuial also states that they should be configured horizontal for midfield (Ron's application, in my view,) and that boundaries may be employed to enhance LF response (Ron's primary dissatisfaction, at low listening levels.)

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/manuals/lsrman.pdf

I'm not disputing anyone's experience with LSR32, rather the contentions here that there is something defective about the design, or that they cannot be successfully employed outside a rigorously controlled studio environment. According to the design objectives, which would appear from the specs to have been realized, LSR32 should be LESS sensitive to listening environment variables than conventional-design monitors, and thus more more flexible, and adaptable for use in different spaces, as described for example, in the multi-channel tech note.

If somebody doesn't like them, that's more a matter of preference, in my view; let's not be laying that on the design or some alleged inherent inapplicability outside the studio....

mikebake
05-21-2007, 11:50 AM
Generally I agree wsith that line of reasoning; in this case you might be missing the boat a bit. In any event, what did you think of them upon hearing?

Zilch
05-21-2007, 12:17 PM
I'm gonna have to go listen again, now.

My thoughts at the time were "Well outside the budget...." ;)

mikebake
05-21-2007, 12:19 PM
Kinda makes you wonder why they were blowing them out for $800 on the tent sale.

4313B
05-21-2007, 12:27 PM
In any event, what did you think of them upon hearing?That I would love to have a pair of Century Gold's sitting around for an A/B.

The twelve is really nice, the crossover frequency between the LF and MF is too low for me (I'd rather try what G.T. suggested and use the LSR28's with subs), the top end is nice but I would have to cut it an additional dB or two in my room.

They don't really fit into my scheme. It's a personal thing. Thanks for letting me borrow a pair of yours for a few months Mike. I appreciate it.

Valentin
05-21-2007, 12:35 PM
I currently own a pair of lsr6332 and a lsr6312 sub

i have them in a large room 4.5m x 9.80m x 2.70 high
they are mounted on omnimount wall mounts and are less than 20 cm of the wall and are tilted to the listening position

For amplification i use a Mark Levinson 23 amp 400watt@ 4 ohm and a deqx as a pre and processor sony cdp 20es as source

The front end of the room is treated to some extent but the room is fairly live

I fine the LSR a very detail speaker you can see what the engineer was dealing with tonality is great and pitch is great .
they do not change with character with volume

about the loudness factor i will put you an example .

a piano will sound good when you hear it at what a real piano volume sounds
mid are great and highs are nice low are dry

they take EQ very well
i find them a exceptional speaker at the price point (new) and a great bargain at tent sale prices

when a speaker are too reviling you start hearing thing you where just not aware of

pair with sub with the DEQX crossover the sound is just fabulos without the sub bass is dry but presice

4313B
05-21-2007, 12:39 PM
pair with sub with the DEQX crossover the sound is just fabulosNo doubt :)

Bassmankr
07-18-2007, 12:04 AM
I picked up a pair of LSR32's when they were on sale and use them in a recording enviroment. The studio is under renovation so all the gear is in a very small room with bad acoustics for now (it's nearly square shaped, yikes). I've treated the room with rockwool pannels (absorbtion) but due to the shape and size of the room I still have a nasty high bass/low mid bump (350 to 400 Hz), and a small null right at the crossover frequency of these guys (2.5k). This is true for all the speakers I've tried in there so I know it's the room (treating a room won't fix everything). Since this is a temp room for the gear I'm going to live with the problems, but I done enough experimenting to have the speakers in their best placement for now. The acoustics are going to change in there due to reflections once I put the large mixing desk back together that sits in front of the wall mounted LSR32's (the mixer is 8 feet wide lol, that's alot of metal to reflect off of) so I might have to add another small acoustic panel but it's a fine line with that stuff and it's an easy mistake to make with adding too much absorbtion and get a dead room. The comments I've read so far are on the money, this speaker will tell you how good or bad a CD is, it will tell you about the quality of the gear hooked up to it, and it will tell you quite alot about your room's acoustics. This is just what a Studio Moniter should do (no hype). Top end is dry (no smiley curve with these guys), imaging is great. Like I said I've got them in a small room right now so it's not a fair test about needing a sub but I really don't see needing one when they go in the control room as mid fields. If you are going to use these outside of a studio I would see a need to EQ them for your room/gear/to get a nice smilely curve. Then they would still point out how bad some CD's are recorded and we know thats alot of them. Speaking of acoustics, here is a link to a free app call modecalc, put in your room's dimensions and it will tell you what the room is going to do to the low frequencies, something you guys have probably figured out with your space, but it may be of value to you. http://www.realtraps.com/modecalc.htm

moparfan
06-28-2010, 04:42 PM
Paired with the LSR12P(6312)?

The used prices are really dropping on these - LSR28's can be easily had for $300 each. LSR12P subs are relatively cheap also. Looking at LSR28 graphs, if the sub comes in at 80hz, it'll take out a big chunk of distortion that come sin at higher levels (102db on the jbl tech sheet graphs).