PDA

View Full Version : LSR32 Preliminary Report



speakerdave
09-20-2003, 06:37 PM
I've been listening to these speakers for about a day now. I have to agree with Drew Daniels--they should be heard.

They are very accurate. Their sound character does not change at high volume levels. I'm limiting my characterizations for the time being because the only thing further I can say definite about them so far is that they've been telling me things about my electronics and my source material. I thought they were unattractively cold and lacking texture--that was my classic tube preamp. I heard a strange noise in the treble that came and went with the music. That was the digital processing "breathing" on one of my favorite CDs that I had thought was sonically excellent: John O'Conor playing John Fielding piano pieces on an early Telarc disc.

One of the fascinating things about this hobby is how a new piece of equipment requires a rehearing of the CD collection, so I'm listening to lots of things to try and get a general sense of the speaker.

I'm still going to work on my larger projects but where there is not enough room for the large format monitors--and maybe in other spaces as well--these speakers are a serious candidate.

I would be interested in hearing from others who have listened to these speakers.

Thanks,

David

Ian Mackenzie
09-20-2003, 09:43 PM
David,

I have not heard them but saw a review in a local PA/Music magazine a while back.

As you suggest, the reviewer concluded he was reviewing his recordings, not the monitor..accurate as it can be.

I love the technology, especially the mid cone driver, the departure from paper to kevlar is a major change for JBL.

Ian:cool:

boputnam
09-20-2003, 09:54 PM
You might try the "Search" button - and the string "LSR32".

There's some references there, and Don taste-tested these some time back and posted some very insightful impressions: Question for Giskard - LSR-32 Search Link (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149&highlight=lsr32) :D

Ron K
09-22-2003, 09:50 AM
Guess I will come off the sidelines. My system in the house is a tri-amped system with 2135/2235 woofers 2290 passives c500g midranges 053ti in wood waveguides. been building speakers for 40+ years and this is one of my best creations. Love this hobby, regards Ron K

speakerdave
09-22-2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Ron K
Guess I will come off the sidelines. My system in the house is a tri-amped system with 2135/2235 woofers 2290 passives c500g midranges 053ti in wood waveguides. been building speakers for 40+ years and this is one of my best creations. Love this hobby, regards Ron K

Wow! So . . . you have that super clean mid/hi and woofers that really go low. That sounds like a really good combination.

Also . . . fascinating that you have had the 2135s reconed as 2235s. I have a pair of blown 2135s on the way that I was considering using the same way. How do they work? Did you have the magnets recharged? What size cabinets are you using? Were you able to use the standard 2235 tunings? I'm not familiar with those passives.

Regards,

David

4313B
09-22-2003, 05:07 PM
I agree speakerdave!
That sounds like a really fine combination there Ron :)
Can you post a picture or two?
What are the filters?

TimG
09-22-2003, 05:54 PM
That sounds like an interesting combination of drivers. Does anyone know if I can get the tweeter mounting plate for the LSR28P as a replacement part? I'd like to try to build a monitor of my own with a 2235H and the mid and tweeter from the LSR32.

Ron K
09-23-2003, 10:04 AM
Here's a picture of the speakers.

Ron

4313B
09-23-2003, 01:07 PM
Nice Ron! :)




Originally posted by TimG
Does anyone know if I can get the tweeter mounting plate for the LSR28P as a replacement part?
385-00020-10 - SUB BAF, LSR 28(DCST) $22.96 USD EA
382-00096-01 - GASKET, HORN, LSR28P $2.90 USD EA

As requested, here is a link to exploded views and schematics:

http://www.jblproservice.com/navigation/LSR%20Series.html

Ron K
09-23-2003, 01:22 PM
hi I didn't know how to put a picture on yesterday. the 2135 magnets were not recharged but seem to be ok. I also have d130s coned 2235 and all seem to work equally. I don't believe alnico loses strength unless severely abused. Also I am one of those that think alnico sounds a suttle amount better. The2290s are pro version of pr15 with accordion surround. The rest of system is Rane AC23, Crown DC300 lows, Carver AV505 mids and high. Carver CT27V preamp, D60 surround amp, 116h1 woofer, 104h2 mid high suround spkrs. This is a great sounding system and is one of few that I haven't had an urge to change anything. And the wife likes them. I have a pair of the oas waveguides that I bought from JBL. I might consider letting them go as I prefer to carve my own out of wood. I will post about the two systems in my sound room in the garage later.



thanks for all the info and friendship on this forum, Ron K

4313B
09-23-2003, 01:58 PM
"I don't believe alnico loses strength unless severely abused."

It also loses strength if you cut it's hair.

Ooops, wrong forum :slink:

"Also I am one of those that think alnico sounds a suttle amount better."

Well, they haven't found a cure for that yet but I'll keep you in my prayers :p

"I prefer to carve my own out of wood."

Very cool! It looks like you did a great job with yours. :)

4313B
09-23-2003, 04:02 PM
Just an FYI in case anyone is interested in getting the components from Pro. These are current MSRP as of today.

2235H $366.00
218F p/n 124-58002-01 $181.68
252F p/n 124-22001-01X $263.00
252G $233.46
C500G p/n 331366-001 $150.02
053Ti p/n 123-10003-00X $122.00

Ron K
09-24-2003, 02:09 PM
Thats quite a price increase on 10/22/02 I paid 50.00 for an O53TI.

Ron K
09-24-2003, 02:16 PM
Speakerdave I forgot to include that the bass box is 6 cubic feet and I tuned the passives for best response in my room.

4313B
09-24-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Ron K
Thats quite a price increase on 10/22/02 I paid 50.00 for an O53TI.
No doubt! The 2235H went up from $275.

Tom Loizeaux
09-24-2003, 05:19 PM
I am curious to hear how the LSR32s stack up against some other well known JBL studio monitors. I do think the LSR sub should be used with these as that was the intention of the design.
I heard some time ago that, though JBL talked about how hi-tech these were, others said they just didn't sound hat good.
I am curious to hear some informed opinions.

Tom

speakerdave
09-24-2003, 05:35 PM
Ron K:

Thanks for the data on your project. That's a very handsome bit of craft you've completed there, and, again, it's such a good idea.

I hope JBl/Harman has got this tuned in. Not everyone is going to want to match a pair of LSR12p subwoofers ($1000 ea) with the LSR 32s. That comes to four grand for the whole set, and, well, you can get a pair of Jubals with original boxes for that and enough left over for milk for your cat. People may like these speakers, yet they're still going to want more bass.

JBL could make a serious re-entry into the hobby speaker-building market with a kit of drivers and crossovers and a choice of woofers, the 2235, 1400nd, 1500AL--whatever--with a filter engineered for each and cabinet plans.

There is kit-building and speaker building going on in this price range.

Well, anyway--I think it's a good idea.

That midrange and tweeter--with their crossover--are a dynamite combination. I'd just like to see people be able to have access to it without stepping into a lot of unnecessary difficulty and expense matching it with good bass. The LSR series are near and mid-field monitors. The technology should be adapted to in-home use and made available to the DIYers in pre-engineered packages.

My two cents.

David

Alex Lancaster
09-24-2003, 06:00 PM
I can imagine JBL not wanting to get into the DIY kit market, because of the support problems it would generate; For $1000, You can get -new- S312's and a S120P sub, and just hook it up.

What do You guys think?

Alex.

speakerdave
09-24-2003, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by Alex Lancaster
I can imagine JBL not wanting to get into the DIY kit market, because of the support problems it would generate. . . .


Yeah, I suppose they got out of it for a reason, but I always kind of assumed that by the end of the seventies that kind of activity had died way down because the people who got into it in the '50s and '60s had done it and the people who were fooling around with speakers in the '70s were, like I was, buying the big old stuff at garage sales and flea markets, or they were doing things like stacking Advents and so on. I've heard it said that it was actually JBL who helped relaunch speaker making with their articles in Audio Magazine on how to make the big 2235- and 2245-based subwoofers.


Originally posted by Alex Lancaster

. . . . For $1000, You can get -new- S312's and a S120P sub, and just hook it up.


I'm not familiar with these speakers, but I'm guessing that at that price they are not quite the equivalent of the LSRs. If they were everybody would be buying them.

I think a lot of people are like me in that I am not trying to cheap into the cheap sounds--I'm trying to cheap into the good sounds. And because I'm a workin' guy I think if I've got a table saw and a bottle of glue I can follow a drawing for a box. The stumbler is the crossover.

I just look at that fabulous set of speakers Ron has made there and realize that a lot of people could try it and not come out with as good a result because they do not have the sophistication he and others have about frequency dividing networks and tuning enclosures--even if they had skills like his in woodworking.

That link mikebake put an another thread about bass reproduction is big, I think, because it says convincingly that below about 200 cycles the room is a part of the system unavoidably. That means that unless a person is going to do a room treatment and apply EQ to compensate for things the room does to frequency response that $2000 spent on subwoofers could easily be wasted.

Why not make it easier, and cheaper, for people to take a speaker with LSR technology in the mids and highs down to 35Hz or so? Or lower if they want. At that point the speaker is playing into room rise in almost all situations, and that takes the game out of the hands of the speaker designer. This compromised result is what most people end up with and live relatively happily with anyway.

If a person spends any time reading this forum it is easy to conclude that the most intractible problems people can have making speakers are in getting two drivers to work together, and Giskard often refers people back to the engineering that JBL has already done.

Why not smooth over this difficulty for the customer, make it possible to mate the LSR mid and treble to a choice of woofers and market the concept with specific instructions on a cabinet for that speaker. The manufacturer could sell some components and would have many happy customers.

It's a marvelous technology.

End of rant.

David

4313B
09-25-2003, 07:12 AM
"I think a lot of people are like me in that I am not trying to cheap into the cheap sounds--I'm trying to cheap into the good sounds. And because I'm a workin' guy I think if I've got a table saw and a bottle of glue I can follow a drawing for a box. The stumbler is the crossover."

The fun part is the crossover. One has so many options available. If they have the time and tenacity to stick with it the results can be quite fantastic. As for cheap, I don't see anything cheap in doing your own R & D to come up with a viable system. It costs money and it costs time.

Ron says he is tri-amping the system, I assume with the Rane AC23. No passive filters to fret about there. When you mention bi-amping many people start sweating and fretting at the cost of a second amp. Ron is tri-amping which would send most Walmart shoppers into cardiac arrest.

"If a person spends any time reading this forum it is easy to conclude that the most intractible problems people can have making speakers are in getting two drivers to work together, and Giskard often refers people back to the engineering that JBL has already done."

I didn't realize that was a problem. Thanks for the heads up.

"Why not smooth over this difficulty for the customer, make it possible to mate the LSR mid and treble to a choice of woofers and market the concept with specific instructions on a cabinet for that speaker. The manufacturer could sell some components and would have many happy customers."

Who is going to pay for the R & D to make this happen? People already bitch and moan about the cost of raw transducers. I won't even get into their constant crying about the cost of recone kits and diaphragms. Now we want to add in the cost of the R & D necessary to make this viable? It'll never happen. The LSR32 is no L100 where you take three (well designed for the time) transducers, toss them into a bookshelf-sized enclosure and throw a couple of capacitors in series with the mid and high frequency transducers.

4313B
09-25-2003, 08:11 AM
252G $234 versus 124H (1980) $180
C500G $150 versus LE5H (1980) $60
053Ti $122 versus 077 (1980) $145

Page 1

4313B
09-25-2003, 08:12 AM
Page 2

4313B
09-25-2003, 08:13 AM
Page 3

Robh3606
09-25-2003, 08:20 AM
Hello David


"I think a lot of people are like me in that I am not trying to cheap into the cheap sounds--I'm trying to cheap into the good sounds. And because I'm a workin' guy I think if I've got a table saw and a bottle of glue I can follow a drawing for a box. The stumbler is the crossover."

I could not agree more!! Just a reminder the site has the schematics for most of the JBL consumer speakers. I am a DIY and without the original crossovers I would be lost. I can't see anyone trying to replicate one of the clasic systems without the original crossover. You may not get the DCR on the coils right but it at least gives you a sound starting point.

"I just look at that fabulous set of speakers Ron has made there and realize that a lot of people could try it and not come out with as good a result because they do not have the sophistication he and others have about frequency dividing networks and tuning enclosures--even if they had skills like his in woodworking."

Yes they are!!! I have been into this hobby for over 30 years. Did a couple of DynaKits the SE-10 and ST-400 power amp. What a great time that was! Never did speakes till about 2 years ago. The box tunning was not to hard to deal with because of the numereous freeware such as Win Isd. The crossover was a real challenge. I run all actives now but my first cut was with passives. Took me numerous tries to get it right. Also got lots of help here.


"If a person spends any time reading this forum it is easy to conclude that the most intractible problems people can have making speakers are in getting two drivers to work together, and Giskard often refers people back to the engineering that JBL has already done."

Why would anyone ignore the engineering the manufacturer already has put in. Makes no sense to re-invent the wheel.

Rob:)

speakerdave
09-25-2003, 08:25 AM
Giskard--"The LSR32 is no L100 where you take three (well designed for the time) transducers, toss them into a bookshelf-sized enclosure and throw a couple of capacitors in series with the mid and high frequency transducers."

I think that's my point. The crossover is in many ways the sine qua non and it's very difficult to do well. Most people do not have the necessary understanding of passive networks and going into the projects they don't understand the necessity of it.

In JBL's component catalogue of 1976 there is a chart of woofers, midranges, compression drivers and tweeters and the crossovers that bring them together in different combinations. They could do it again.

David

speakerdave
09-25-2003, 08:43 AM
Giskard: "I didn't realize that was a problem. Thanks for the heads up."

It's not a problem. I should have added that you remind us not to try and outsmart JBL engineers if they've already worked on a particular combination and the solution is available.

I think you've also said if refurbishing or copying a speaker use the original crossover with bypasses, if building from scratch the way Ron did, go bi- or tri- amp. I was agreeing with all of these ideas (I thought). But even in multi-amplifier setups some supplementary tailoring of the filter must be done.

Thanks for the comparison price chart on the drivers. It is an eye-opener.

Regards,

David

4313B
09-25-2003, 09:11 AM
"It's not a problem. I should have added that you remind us not to try and outsmart JBL engineers if they've already worked on a particular combination and the solution is available."

Only because doing so will require some degree of effort. Anyone can plug and chug through a few formulas and come up with a "solution". Whether that "solution" will sound decent or not is another story. I have no doubt there are plenty of people out there today that can come up with a better solution than an old LX80 or N7000.

"In JBL's component catalogue of 1976 there is a chart of woofers, midranges, compression drivers and tweeters and the crossovers that bring them together in different combinations. They could do it again."

Yep, in 1980 you could buy the S300-1 component system (136H, LE85/HL92, 077, LX300) for $915 and the EN5C enclosure for $250 for a total of $1,165 or you could simply go out and buy an L300 for $1,395 and get an arguably better looking system. (The 4333BWX was $1,275 and I'd spend the extra to get the blue baffle :p)

speakerdave
09-25-2003, 12:43 PM
So custom speaker building will always be the domain of the resourceful, ingenious, intelligent, agile maverick--


Works for me!

4313B
09-25-2003, 01:10 PM
Hmm, I hope that my propensity for playing the devil's advocate isn't discouraging.


Originally posted by speakerdave
So customn speaker building will always be the domain of the resourceful, ingenious, intelligent, agile maverick--
Or for those who just want to have fun. It can be taken to any level one wants to take it to. I certainly don't allow my lack of resourcefulness, agility, ingenuity, and intelligence get in the way of my fiddling with legacy JBL componentry. :)

I'd like to check out Ron's system to see how it sounds using the active filter instead of the passives.

I'd like to hear the LSR32 components in a vertical array with a good 1st or 2nd order Butterworth passive filter.

Ian Mackenzie
09-25-2003, 02:11 PM
I see some interesting view points here.

For me and perhaps many others I think the whole thing here on the Lansing Heritage Forum is more about building/restoring the vintage legend systems we recall from our youth/ hi fi hey days, and its a great hobby.

The vintage 4315/4343/4345 are classic designs and would appear to be a vintage builders dream and certainly offer the results and satisfaction.

Some of us are approaching the cross roads of restoring/ building vintage JBL systems (using original schematics & parts) while also contemplating the proposition of building state of art diy systems using the latest hi end JBL parts......

Thats a whole new ball game, more expensive, hi risk and requires different resouces, skills and experience. Playing around with exotic crossover capacitors is the tip of the iceberg.

Rolling you own passive crossovers can be fun, but does requires some basic technical knowledge and test equipment and lots of trial & error and evaluation.

I use an inductance meter for the adjustng coils, a diy calibrated mic, & sound card solftware called Winairr which is available from places like Audio Express.

Good results can be obtained by adjusting your test book schematic values until you get a fairly smooth response, then use your ears.

If you want to can take the plung, buy expensive optimiser software like Speakereasy, Linear X, Calsod which is a fancy way of figuring out the crossover values. But if you can afford to do that you may as well just go and buy a great off the shelf system thts been de bugged.

Alternatively to avoid massive frustration :banghead: and disappointment you may you want look at the latest proven hi end diy designs published on the www (see speaker builders home page) prepared by skills engineers and enthusiasts.

Ian:smthsail:

mikebake
09-25-2003, 04:47 PM
Some of us are approaching the cross roads of restoring/ building vintage JBL systems (using original schematics & parts) while also contemplating the proposition of building state of art diy systems using the latest hi end JBL parts......

Or a combination of both!!

The new (better) stuff is the future vintage stuff anyway; might as well get in on it at the beginning of the game, eh??

MBB

Tom Loizeaux
09-27-2003, 07:57 PM
I found a dealer this week who had a pair of new (demo) LSR32s. He said he'd let the pair go for $1300. He said he couldn't play them for me because no one wanted to hear them so it was to much trouble!
He also said the LRS subwoofer has been very problematic. He said that over half of them had major amp problems and that JBL was not making them any longer!
That kind of puts a damper on my fantasy of a 32 stacked on top of a LRSsub on each side!
They were pushed by JBL as something superior and very special, but they've found very little acceptance in the pro audio world.
I'm curious about these hi tech studio monitors.
Any info?

Tom

speakerdave
09-27-2003, 08:43 PM
I've always thought it really fascinating how readers of audio reviews can convince themselves (I include myself) they've been informed how a piece of audio gear is going to sound. I believe that in the future this will be studied by students of rhetoric and credulity.

Right now I have a pair of these speakers in the living room and I find it difficult giving a flea fart about what some lazy dealer somewhere has to say about them. For me it's enough to know how cool it is that Miles Davis has been showing up at my house lately.

I would never let somebody like that deter me from listening to a speaker if it were at all possible to find some to sample. Maybe this guy would let you take them home with an understanding you could bring them back if you wanted.

As for the scuttlebutt about the LSR series--I don't know what the explanation would be for the LSR series not being a success with the studio jockeys--I don't even know if it's true they are not. I do know there can be all kinds of reasons for success or failure in a market that have nothing to do with the quality of the product. You can go out of business in this town offering good basic value. Besides, do you think all the discs that get printed are all that great?

I would try to find a pair to listen to and make up my own mind. Just so you know, I bought mine before I heard them. For me a trio of very definite affirmative comments from Drew Daniels, Greg Timbers and Stereophile Magazine made it worth a shot, especially the first two, who were saying that the LSRs had superceded some of their own best work. Why worry about some pissant in a salesroom?

More later.

David

Tom Roper
09-27-2003, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Tom Loizeaux
They were pushed by JBL as something superior and very special, but they've found very little acceptance in the pro audio world.
Tom

Translation: It's a vintage classic before its time.

I don't know the reasons. But JBL monitors have been in studios for so long, it just seems the natural order of things that when they come out, you hang your hat on putting something back in that trumps it, even if in reality, it doesn't.

People can be so fickle about sound. One fellow was commenting about the visionaries at TAD he met at Cedia. He's overwhelmed by the sound, the mystique, the aura, and wholly smitten. Later, someone told him TAD was owned by Pioneer. Suddenly it was a mental General Protection Fault, cancel and reboot. JBL may suffer from that malady, a victim of success.

speakerdave
09-27-2003, 11:38 PM
I think this is right. Most of the prices are quoted from Giskard's posts. I pulled the network off the miscellaneous parts list.

385-00020-10 - SUB BAF, LSR 28(DCST) $22.96 USD EA
382-00096-01 - GASKET, HORN, LSR28P $2.90 USD EA
252G $233.46
C500G p/n 331366-001 $150.02
053Ti p/n 123-10003-00X $122.00
129-30003-00 Network assembly SAR 32 $114.75 USD

The total is just under $650. You have to buy lumber, vents, finish, input connectors, and make the cabinets. That pair of demos for $1300 sounds like a pretty good deal. I've seen used pairs go begging on eBay for $1250-$1350. They move at about $1000, less than Jubals with original boxes. I think it's a bargain.

You will probably want to add a subwoofer. The point of my earlier rant about making kits available with other woofers is that you could save by buying the tweeter and midrange, replicate parts of the crossover, select your own woofer to go lower if you want, and make appropriate modifications of the crossover, but that wouldn't be easy and I think the manufacturer would do well to do some of the engineering for such projects.

However, lacking that I think the finished speaker and the creation of your own subwoofer from about 50 Hz down would be worth the extra expense in the long run. Here's why-- really flat frequency response:

60 to 22K Hz +1, -1.5 dB

I think that specification is really a big deal. This spec and additional information about the speaker can be found here:

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/recording/lsr32.htm

David

4313B
09-28-2003, 01:29 AM
Yeah, looks like a damn good deal. The S21-1 component system (124H, LE5H, 077, LX30) cost $565 in 1980. The EN3P enclosure could be bought for an additional $200 making the total $765.

23 years later one can buy all the components to make a system that sounds substantially superior to an S21-1 for roughly the same amount of money. Not bad at all.

BTW, notice how the 252G in the larger enclosure allows for a 6 dB down point at roughly 30 Hz with usable response extending into the mid twenties? Interesting.....

speakerdave
09-28-2003, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by Giskard

BTW, notice how the 252G in the larger enclosure allows for a 6 dB down point at roughly 30 Hz with usable response extending into the mid twenties? Interesting.....

OK, I gotcha . . . thanks. I had been overlooking the details of those graphs, thinking they were just a comparison of the two woofers. The upper bass and lower midrange may change a little in the larger enclosure, but it's not that much larger, and it would most likely be quite close. That's still a nice compact enclosure, too.

In the LSR32 enclosure there is no bloom or boom in the bass.

These speakers can be driven pretty hard. I got home from work early the other day and turned my Mac 2200 loose on them with the SACD of Stevie Ray's Texas Flood, and they really deliver. Tommy Shannon's bass was very well articulated--distinct notes all the way down. Mingus on Mingus Ah Um the same. And on Copeland Conducts Copeland on Billy the Kid the kettle drums were all very clear and distinct and well-located. As for the rest of the frequency range, I'll have more to say about that.

200 watts is at the lower end of the JBL-recommended range.

David

4313B
09-28-2003, 07:16 AM
"OK, I gotcha . . . thanks. I had been overlooking the details of those graphs, thinking they were just a comparison of the two woofers. The upper bass and lower midrange may change a little in the larger enclosure, but it's not that much larger, and it would most likely be quite close. That's still a nice compact enclosure, too.

In the LSR32 enclosure there is no bloom or boom in the bass."

Well 2.0 to 3.0 cubic feet was a "typical" volume range for custom 124A/124H systems so I thought it would be interesting to see how the 252G behaved as a replacement. There's no "bloom" or "boom" in a properly configured 124A/124H system either ;) Unfortunately, the 124A/124H is quite old and the 252G has it beat in other areas that the BassBox 6 Pro software package can't even begin to show graphically. Anyway, it's nice to see JBL has basically retained the response characteristic that made the 124A/124H such a "punchy" transducer and then added in all the other goodies as mentioned in the literature. And they did it all without doubling the cost of the transducer :)

herve M
10-12-2003, 07:39 AM
Hello Giskard.
Monitor Poll : LSR 32 vs 4425 . Your choice ?
Sound difference between 4425 and lsr 32 ?

GordonW
10-12-2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Giskard


Unfortunately, the 124A/124H is quite old and the 252G has it beat in other areas that the BassBox 6 Pro software package can't even begin to show graphically. Anyway, it's nice to see JBL has basically retained the response characteristic that made the 124A/124H such a "punchy" transducer and then added in all the other goodies as mentioned in the literature. And they did it all without doubling the cost of the transducer :)

Question: Do all 252Gs have 2" voice coils? I was just looking at one in my friends' local PA repair shop, and was a bit surprised that the coil was only a 2". I was wondering how that affected the sound WRT the 4" coils in the 124A? Yeah, I know, more modern technology, better performance out of smaller hardware... but there's still something about that BIG MOTOR thing...

It's also fun to note, that there's a 252F floating around out there... as in 2 ohms. Makes for interesting propositions for stuff such as Urei or Crown amps that can basically drive short-circuits... :D

Regards,
Gordon.