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Regis
11-28-2005, 12:34 PM
I'm selling all my vintage gear and updating the systems. The reason was, I found the 80's GAS Thalia pre-amp and ancient ESS Eclipse amp, sounded better than my vintage Sansui stuff.

I'm leaning towards tri-amping the L-300's, using a JBL M553 xover. Got a few questions. Should I go 'boutique' audio (BK, GAS, Sumo) or pro (Crown, QSC, Behringer)? Is one 'cleaner' than the other, or is it just 'packaging'?

The xover uses XLR inputs and outputs, and I'm wondering if it's better to stick to XLR all the way to the amps? Secondly, would a regular mixer work with a CD player, etc? Benefits, disadvantages?

boputnam
11-28-2005, 03:51 PM
Behringer is not in a class with Crown nor QSC.

Otherwise...


1) The xover uses XLR inputs and outputs, and I'm wondering if it's better to stick to XLR all the way to the amps? 2) Secondly, would a regular mixer work with a CD player, etc? Benefits, disadvantages?1) Yea, stay balanced if you can.

2) "mixer"...? 'splain what you mean / are thinking... Using a "mixer" is not a good idea, nor necessary IMO.

Charlie4350
11-28-2005, 04:17 PM
I wouldn't go the triamp route, you'll be forever looking for good sound. The 300's will absolutely LOVE this :D

http://www.rogueaudio.com/images/enlarged/ZEUSFRON.JPG

Regis
11-28-2005, 04:40 PM
1) Yea, stay balanced if you can.

2) "mixer"...? 'splain what you mean / are thinking... Using a "mixer" is not a good idea, nor necessary IMO.[/QUOTE]

A sincere thanks Bo, as I'm likely going to need a preamp, but all the preamps in the pro section seemed to be focused on mic's (naturally). So what kind of preamp would have an XLR output and be compatible on the RCA input with CD players or DAC's? I see that there are RCA-XLR adapters, but it makes me wonder.
:dont-know

Regis
11-28-2005, 04:43 PM
I wouldn't go the triamp route, you'll be forever looking for good sound. The 300's will absolutely LOVE this :D

http://www.rogueaudio.com/images/enlarged/ZEUSFRON.JPG

Umm, yeah. That is another consideration. A) Going Steve Gonzales route with a tube midrange amp, pro bottom and top amps. Or just going for a big-balls tube amp within my price range (the big un's are some serious $$$). The other option, I'm exploring here and I did read the other L-300 thread with interest, tho' I doubt I'll ever go 9w SET unless I heard it (the low power tube amps don't have the power for the bottom end punch if that's what you're seeking).

boputnam
11-28-2005, 05:16 PM
So what kind of preamp would have an XLR output and be compatible on the RCA input with CD players or DAC's? I see that there are RCA-XLR adapters, but it makes me wonder.Dood, you're sandbagging! That's a lay-up for me!

The Adcom GFP-750 - plenty liquid on eBay, and many/most in excellent condition. I REALLY love mine, and it solved all the GL issues I had from mixing consumer (single-ended) gear with pro. There's quite a discussion of this model and others, here, too - try a Search.

Thanks to the Widget for this advice - I've since got three... :applaud:

Mr. Widget
11-28-2005, 05:42 PM
I'm selling all my vintage gear and updating the systems. The reason was, I found the 80's GAS Thalia pre-amp and ancient ESS Eclipse amp, sounded better than my vintage Sansui stuff.I must have said this a thousand times... the better 80's stereo gear is vastly superior to the receivers and integrateds that so many here listen to. To get better than the GAS and ESS you will need to audition carefully... there is no need to buy new PA amps, the GAS Grandson is sonically superior to most if not all of them. Why get rid of the Thalia and Eclipse? Balanced is nice, but not necessary in most domestic situations. For the most part, the balanced gear that is sonically superior is quite costly. The Adcom is an exception, but I wouldn't endorse their or anyone's entire line. You need to pick each piece carefully. PS Audio, GAS, Threshold, Sumo, Bedini, and Forte are some of the brands I'd look at.

Going with an active crossover and muti-amping does complicate things and unless you are very hands on and willing to work at getting it right, you may not get a multi-amp set-up that is as good as a single amp set-up. If you do go that extra mile, the quality of the crossover is as critical as the preamp... think of it this way, if you take that Thalia preamp and run it's output through your Sansui before it goes to your amp you have just stepped backwards. Most of the affordable pro crossovers are not even as good as the front end of your basic Sansui or Pioneer receiver. I like crossovers from Symmetry, Bryston, and the LP-1 from Dahlquist. I have never used one, but I have heard good things from many people about the Marchand crossovers.

Widget

Regis
11-29-2005, 07:15 AM
Thank you Bo and Mr Widget! I actually have two systems to put together. The mod'd L-150's in the family room and the L-300's in the living room. There's only one 'separates' system at the moment. The L-150's are/were running off've a Sansui G-9000 and the L-300's off've the G-22000, but as I pointed out earlier, I noticed a difference on the L-150's running the 'separates'.

The reason I'm looking at all the options is the ESS amp is somewhat tired and will have to be gone through. There is noise on the 'A' channel that doesn't exist on the 'B' channel. The ESS is 70's for sure. I'm looking for an amp(s) for the L-300 system that is more 80's technology (toroidial transformer, mil-spec electronics, improved controls, etc).

I will need a second pre-amp as well. My bud with the L-250's noticed a significant difference between the GAS Thalia that I loaned him and his GAS Thoebe (which I had a peek under the hood, when I cleaned and checked it out, definitely a step up from the Thalia, more electronics, etc). So even a better pre-amp is in the works. I may also lean towards a big tube amp or possibly a high powered MOSFET amp, like the Soundcraftsmen. The ESS is Bipolar trannies.

Thanks for the great advice and recommendations! :D

Mr. Widget
11-29-2005, 10:11 AM
I have a pile of the Soundcraftsmen amps as does TiDome... they are competent, but nothing to write home about. I use mine in my HT outfit but wouldn't use them for a main system. For budget mosfets you can look at Haflers... I like them much better than the Soundcraftsmen amps.

Widget

Titanium Dome
11-29-2005, 10:24 AM
The Soundcraftsmen amps are not valued very highly, sometimes for good reason, but I'm glad they're not. It means the good ones are cheaper for me. Since they're getting old, some are candidates for a bit of reconditioning, which is fairly easy to do.

For my purposes they're a dream in many configurations, and they're certainly single-handedly responsible for addicting me to MOSFET outputs.

I've got one of those little S860 b@st@rds bridged for my B380 and an A400 driving the 4430s in my office (plus six or seven more at home). NOT for sale anytime soon. :no:

grumpy
11-29-2005, 10:38 AM
If you can find a clean Perreaux 2150B or 3150, buy 'em and
don't look back. :D

Sold both... wish I hadn't.

I wouldn't recommend balanced for home use unless you have a piece of must-have
equipment that requires it... or a big pile 'o money (echoing most of what's posted in
this thread already)

-grumpy

Regis
11-29-2005, 11:09 AM
Mr. Widget, thanks for the thoughts. Certainly something to ponder as I am looking for that elusive sweet sound, that I feel I should be getting. I'll remove the Soundcraftsmen from the list. So far, B&K looks like nice build. And as mentioned before, GAS, but the Grandson, might not be enough watts, but if it's around 150, I may live with it, for better sound all-around.

Thanks Grumpy for the recommendation as well. I'll add that to the list too. Looking to spend about $1,500 to $2K, but if I can get away with less, I will!

Mr. Widget
11-29-2005, 11:50 AM
The Grandson is a wonderful amp... but it is only 40wpc at 8 ohms. I used them as mid/tweeter amps. Though they have balls down low too if you don't need crazy SPLs.

I own a B&K and am not all that impressed... back in the day they were quite popular though.


Widget

Zilch
11-29-2005, 12:10 PM
Ask Mr. Widget what he used to drive Project May.... ;)

Mr. Widget
11-29-2005, 12:32 PM
Ask Mr. Widget what he used to drive Project May.... ;)A single Hafler 9505 and triamped with a pair of 9505s and a JBL MPA 600 on the woofers... a less than ideal combo, but it worked...

I think Zilch was plugging for his loaner Urei/JBL 62XX amp that has been here awhile... I used it awhile back as a sub amp in a quad amped setup... it was fine. ;)


Widget

Zilch
11-29-2005, 04:45 PM
Actually, I thought the MPA600 was quite impressive. You said the fan never even came on, if I recall....

Mr. Widget
11-29-2005, 04:58 PM
I have two of them in domestic sub duty... neither one has ever warmed up enough to have the fan come on... not even when the sound of a mid air collision knocked Bo right off the couch... the stain was the worst part.:applaud:


Widget

grumpy
11-30-2005, 09:45 AM
Don't know why I didn't think of this earlier...

I have a Proceed PRE line-stage that has both SE and Bal in/outs as well as a remote.
That model (high end H/K product line somewhat related to Levinson) was ~$2000
new and now shows up for $600-700 now & then. Very clean, very transparent (sounding).
As this is a line-stage, there is -no- phono input (to be painfully clear).
Check Audiogon or Ebay or google for more info/reviews if interested.

-grumpy

JuniorJBL
11-30-2005, 11:10 AM
I own a B&K and am not all that impressed...


Widget

:no:

Regis
11-30-2005, 12:29 PM
If you can find a clean Perreaux 2150B or 3150, buy 'em and
don't look back. :D

Sold both... wish I hadn't.

I wouldn't recommend balanced for home use unless you have a piece of must-have
equipment that requires it... or a big pile 'o money (echoing most of what's posted in
this thread already)

-grumpy

I researched the Perreaux audio site in New Zealand, their build philosophy is very minimalist, rugged and with a great deal of care to even the small details. I am leaning more and more towards this line. The build quality on their pre-amps and amps is very nice. It comes down to either BJT (Bipolar Tranny's) or MOSFET's and while others may disagree (it's a big wide audio world out there), I'm liking the MOSFET amps.

Thanks Bo, Mr. Widget, Zilch and Grumpy for your advice!

jbl4ever
12-17-2005, 06:00 PM
Hello Regis, hope Im not to late. In the late 70's and early 80's used with great

success the Harman Kardon 16A's and the Gas Ampzilla with the JBL 5234
crossover. Just remove the barrier strip on the back and put in some RCA
jacks. The Ampzilla worked great for the bass and the sweet 16A's for
the rest. If you still have the GAS preamp.:applaud:

jim3860
01-24-2006, 10:21 PM
Dood, you're sandbagging! That's a lay-up for me!

The Adcom GFP-750 - plenty liquid on eBay, and many/most in excellent condition. I REALLY love mine, and it solved all the GL issues I had from mixing consumer (single-ended) gear with pro. There's quite a discussion of this model and others, here, too - try a Search.

Thanks to the Widget for this advice - I've since got three... :applaud: So mr widget is this the preamp I should be looking for? I wanted something with balanced xlr outputs, this seems to fit the bill in that respect. If its better than the newer preamps with all the digital doodah. Than i owe YOU bigtime.:applaud:

Mr. Widget
01-24-2006, 10:30 PM
It is quite competent... it does have a remote, of sorts, and is pretty darn neutral. There are plenty of other pre-amps out there, each with it's own following. I believe the current used price for these Adcoms on eBay is around $600 and at that price it is a good deal. For $200 you can usually find a PS Audio 4.5, 4.6, 5 and I think they are every bit as good, but aren't balanced and have no remote.


Widget

Mr. Widget
01-24-2006, 10:32 PM
I just popped over to eBay and noticed that the last few have gone for several hundred over $600... I guess Bo's raves have been heard.:(


Widget

jim3860
01-24-2006, 10:55 PM
I just popped over to eBay and noticed that the last few have gone for several hundred over $600... I guess Bo's raves have been heard.:(


Widget oh geez. oh well i have a hard head if i have to wait a month or two, until i can free up $1500.00 so be it I think its still worth it. THANKS AGAIN JIM:) P.S Oh not so bad it looks like $800- to $1100.00 just checked. btw THANKS to you too BO. :)

Regis
02-09-2006, 07:38 AM
Here's an update on the amplifier search. I finally settled on Perreaux and I found an excellent deal through an audio dealer on a two year old 200P. The 200 P is still being manufactured and is part of Perreaux's "Reference" Series. The "P" stands for "Professional" vs. the Home unit. Both have the same guts, but the home unit has a very bizarre "artistic" front casting vs. the clean styling of the P. It also has XLR inputs as well as the RCA's, though I'm not sure about the XLR route just yet.

200 wpc of MOSFET and it's in excellent condition, with original box and accessories. It retails for $3,600 and I'm getting it for just a little under $900. So I'm stoked. A ten year old 3150 just went for $786 on Ebay. I'm looking forward to consumating the deal. We'll see how it sounds with my GAS (Great American Sound) Thalia preamp. Should have it here within a couple of weeks and I'll post the results after carefull listening. I'm keeping the rare Sansui G-22000, just because it's 'purty' and that can drive the 4310's.

hapy._.face
02-09-2006, 09:10 AM
Here's an update on the amplifier search. I finally settled on Perreaux and I found an excellent deal through an audio dealer on a two year old 200P. The 200 P is still being manufactured and is part of Perreaux's "Reference" Series. The "P" stands for "Professional" vs. the Home unit. Both have the same guts, but the home unit has a very bizarre "artistic" front casting vs. the clean styling of the P. It also has XLR inputs as well as the RCA's, though I'm not sure about the XLR route just yet.

200 wpc of MOSFET and it's in excellent condition, with original box and accessories. It retails for $3,600 and I'm getting it for just a little under $900. So I'm stoked. A ten year old 3150 just went for $786 on Ebay. I'm looking forward to consumating the deal. We'll see how it sounds with my GAS (Great American Sound) Thalia preamp. Should have it here within a couple of weeks and I'll post the results after carefull listening. I'm keeping the rare Sansui G-22000, just because it's 'purty' and that can drive the 4310's.


My buddy Dave loves his Perreaux. I haven't listened to it extensively enough to say if it tops my Thresholds or not- but what I heard (or didn't hear for that matter) was quite flat and strong. It has a very open, uncluttered quality to it. Judging from your other components- I think you have a great match! Congrats! Ahhh- New toys. :p