Looking in for advice

[WildWest]

Hello folks at the Lansing Heritage Forum. I haven't posted a lot here and I usually hang out over at Audio Karma. Don has popped in from time to time over there and he is always a wealth of information. I asked a question over there and someone advised me to post it here so if you all don't mind, here goes...

This Christmas I have the chance to do some serious upgrading. At first I was thinking about a fine new turn table and tonearm but the more I thought about it the more I realized what would affect my sound much more than that would be new speakers.

I really like my MTM Raven tweeter based speakers. But sadly they would shine much better in a smaller room. Plus I yearn for the larger woofer dynamics that I currently do not get now.

After hearing other speakers and attending the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest last year I know what I really want but sadly can't afford the Edgar Horn Titans or similar speakers like Exemplars etc. I sure do like the full, real sound of such things though. Damn Bruce's speakers sound wonderful ya know?

So I want to get to something that might product a similar sound since there is no way I will ever be able to cough up the coin for his stuff. I'm able to build about anything. I have a wood shop at my disposal and best of all I have about a 4K budget. Sadly I'm having trouble weeding through the mounds of information out there to get to my end. Whew, all those driver numbers, salad bowls, crossover etc. Heeeeeelpppp! :banghead: LOL Those that know what sound I am driving for would be hero's if they could chime in with a BIG ole weed whacker and help me to arrive at some answers and directions. Again, I can DIY if I had a good handle on drivers and such. I'm sure my 845 mono blocks will push what I build and then some and I will bi-amp with dual sub woofers too. I just need a road map and sources etc. I got the bank, I got the abillity, now all I need is the smarts. Any input that you may have for me is so appreciated. Site links, whatever you can do. I really appreciate y'all letting me ramble on here and may you have the best of holidays! :)

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi,


My 2 bobs worth.

I think its a case of trying a tried and proven design rather than throwing money at it.

1st take..a 4430 clone..plenty of 2344s and drivers on Ebay at the moment
2nd take a 250ti clone

[WildWest]

Great, I agree. Doing something that has been done before and works to similar sound is just what the doctor ordered. Getting some cabinet advice, dirver advice and such will get me to where I need to be. :) Hope it's not to generic to ask. Just digging for ideas and such...

[Robh3606]

Hello Wildwest

Is that 4K for speakers only??

Have you spoke to Bruce about his kits?? You don't have too purchase finished systems. His DIY horn shells and Tractrix horns are reasonable. Then you would need drivers but if you priced it out it may not be too far off. I heard his stuff at Midwest Audio Fest and I agree his horns really are something special. His Slimlines are not too shabby either.

You can do quite a bit with that kind of coin. There is a multitude of systems you could build. As a matter of fact you could build several with the right driver sets. I think Ian's suggestion or a clone of a proven system makes a bit of sense.

Just an example or which drivers would give you the most options:

Pair of 2235's The most versitle of the 15" drivers. You can use this driver as a basic building block for 4330/4333/4343/4344/4430 as examples.

Pair of 2425/2426's to cover any 1 inch driver. The 2426 give you the best possible mix of horns with it's detachable screw on adapter.

Pair of Horns?? 2307/2312 for the classic 4300 series 2344 CD for 4430

Pair or 2405's for any of the 3 way 4300 series.

If you went 4 way like the 4343 or 4344 a 10" lower midrange like 2121/2122


For an idea of cost using cores with recones to end up with essentially new drivers that meet the original factory specs:

You can get 2225 cores and have fresh 2235 cone kits installed for about $500 figure $100 for the cores and $170 each for the kits

You can get 2426/2425 for figure $250-300 for a working pair or get cores and add new diaphrams for $100 cores and $250-300 new diaphrams

2405 are easy to get. Same thing, get cores and buy new diaphrams if you go this way figure $300 for the pair

Worst case no breaks about $1100-1250 for all new drivers if you get cores and recone/rediaphram the lot on a 3 way system like a 4333 or L300 clone.

Figure another $100-200 for horns depending on what you pick and system you decide to clone and $200-500 on the crossovers.

Well within your budget

Please note that on Ebay you can get some real bargains like 2426's with horns for $200 for the pair. I got a pair of 2405's in really good shape for $69 BIN so start watching Ebay for cores, drivers and horns.

Rob:)

[WildWest]

Hi Rob... Whew, ya got my head spinning there LOL

Well, the 4K is for parts...drivers, horns, cabinet materials.

No, I havent talked to Bruce. Hmmmm maybe I should eh?

I'm hanging on just barely knowing what to do. Sure I've seen and heard his product but I'm not nearly as sharp on this topic like you and others. LOL kinda feel stupid but we all have to learn. I just know the sound I like and sure want to copy it somehow.

Thanks sooooooo much for your response and if you have any more input of course, I'm all ears!!

[mikebake]

Rob, I sent him over here because he has plenty enough speaker/component budget to put some ass-kickin' speakers together. Maybe you could break it down for him some more? I don't believe he knows the basic systems/horns/components by model # that you reference. Maybe we can do some basic questioning and help him get off the blocks. I just thought that witih his expressed interest and budget, we could help him achieve more than he might be imagining!

[scott fitlin]

Im with Rob on this one! Since you already know you like the sound of the Edgar Horns, talk to Bruce, and see what kind of DIY kit you can get with your budget!

You might be surprised what you can get, if your willing to do the assembly!

Definitely many good people on this forum to give you guidance on just about any type of help you need!

[WildWest]

Thanks Mike! Yeah I'm having just a bit of trouble with mere numbers being thrown at me. But, but, but...I wanna learn I do!! LOL

I am going to contact Bruce but maybe with your guys help I can not have to lean on the good Dr. so much ya know? (he does get pretty busy so I hear) I really REALLY appreciate this guys and this is the beginning of a dream come true for me and likely the last speakers that I will ever own.

[mikebake]

Bruce is a nice guy. Give us a report on what he comes up with and, again, you'll get some good input here on how to get things rolling.

[mikebake]

this is the beginning of a dream come true for me and likely the last speakers that I will ever own.:spin: HA HA; COME ON! You're as bad as the rest of us!:D

[WildWest]

:spin: HA HA; COME ON! You're as bad as the rest of us!:D

Well if you ask my wife it sure as hell would be LOL

I tried to contact Bruce via his web site but it wouldn't send when I hit send. Also his "parts and service" link is in a friggin foreign language soooooo I sure as hell was lost on that one. Anyway, I contacted him via his e mail at AA and I'm sure in time he will get to me. Had heard he screwed up his hand so I bet he reallly is behind these days. Also with the holidays I'm going to likely have to be patient. That's ok, I've waited since the RMAF in 2004. I can certainly wait a bit longer.

Sure appreciate you guys kind nature and willingness to help. Looking forward to it all that's for sure!!

[Robh3606]

"I don't believe he knows the basic systems/horns/components by model # that you reference."

Hello Mike

Sure!! Sorry I forget how confusing all these darn part numbers can be.

OK

The 4333 system and it's consumer version the L300 Summit

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1974-4332-4333.htm

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1975-l300.htm

Components are

2235 15" Bass Driver (2231 is no longer available)

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2235.htm

2425/2426 1" Compression Driver (2420 can be found on Ebay)

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2426h.htm

2405 Slot Loaded Ring Radiator

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2405.htm

Crossover

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Studio%20Monitor%20Series/4333B.pdf

Ian's Suggestion 4430 Monitor

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1984-4430-35.htm

Components

2235 15" Bass Drive

2425/26 1" Compresion Driver

Horn 2344

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/pro-comp/2344.htm

Crossover

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Studio%20Monitor%20Series/4430LR.pdf


This is an example of what information is available. Most of the designs are very well documented and additional driver substitutions are possible however I don't want to really drop to much information because it will simply confuse things. If you have any questions just ask.

Rob:)

[WildWest]

:happyh:

Thanks Rob, that was AWESOME of you. Sure made things perfectly clear...
Appreciate the effort!

[mikebake]

Thanks Rob;

We had family over last night and I was deep into the "holiday cheer" and wasn't up to the task.....................;)

[Mr. Widget]

Howdy there WildWest,

I'll agree with Rob and Scott. Dr. Edgar's stuff is very good and is an extreme bargain when in kit form. He is also very helpful and can lead you through the process.

You could mess around with 43XX this and 44XX that with 24XX this and that for months and months, but since you know you like what the good doctor has put together, you should give him a call or send him an e-mail. I would do the same myself, except I am still messing around with piles of other speakers... for some of us the journey seems to be the goal. ;)
I hope, I eventually get on to the next level, but it takes more for some than others...

Widget

[WildWest]

Thanks Widget... It's nice to hear from folks here that I'm on the right track. I wish I had more time for the "journey" to be honest with you. It would be fun. But I just have so much going on in life that I would enjoy merely getting the sound I want so I can relax to good music and let the stress out on a regular basis.

[johnaec]

Thanks Rob;

We had family over last night and I was deep into the "holiday cheer" and wasn't up to the task.....................;)Not to hijack the thread Mike, but seeing as you're speaking of "cheer" - isn't that "Bob", the Enzyte guy, in your avatar? 'Sponsor? :p

John

[Steve Schell]

WildWest, you are closer to a fine speaker system than you know. With a $4k budget and access to a wood shop, you are ahead of most guys. The hard part of course, as always, is narrowing down the choices and deciding what to buy or build.

My preference is for fully front horn loaded systems. Most choose to compromise on the low end and use some sort of direct radiator system for bass and / or sub bass. Then begins the task of trying to blend in a low end which possesses higher distortion and poorer dynamics with the horns. Try to stay with horns throughout- the low distortion top to bottom and uniform dynamics of this approach is probably why Bruce's Titan system grabbed you.

Bruce is recovering steadily from his hand injury; he was at work the next day! He can be reached at (310)630-1621 or at [email protected] . As has been pointed out, he sells raw horn shells at attractive prices to DIYers. He employs a highly skilled assistant these days, and is not far behind on production as far as I know.

Perhaps you can make it to T.H.E. Show in Las Vegas January 5-8. Bruce will be showing in room 1301. My partner and I will be showing our new Cogent horn system in room 1401 as well. I would be happy to discuss all this horn stuff with you in greater detail; feel free to write to me at [email protected]. You might also want to check out the Audio Asylum High Efficiency Speakers forum, where this type of thing is discussed constantly.

[WildWest]

Thanks Steve! I really appreciate your input. With help like you and others here I am "in like Flynn".

Yeah, I know the choices are going to be a bit hard but as long as I keep my focus on emulating the sound of Bruce's Titans I will be happy. I really liked it! I don't have unlimited space and may have to make that "compromise" you speak of. I have two 12 inch Titanic drivers that I was going to put in dual acoustic suspension cabinets to bi-amp. I like acoustic suspension bass.

I sent Bruce an e mail. If I don't hear back from him in another few days I will call him. Weren't you at the 2004 RMAF? I saw the Cogent horn system there if I'm not mistaken. I am an avid reader over at AA also. The High Efficiency Speakers forum yields tons of information. I also have a real good friend (Billfort) over at AudioKarma that is into this sorta stuff and he can't wait to help me spend my money LOL (He's great at CAD drawings too so that's handy)

Thanks again and of course I'll continue this thread as more happens. :)

[WildWest]

A bit of an update...

Dr. Bruce Edgar got back to me in a timely manner. I was suprised seeing what had happened to his fingers recently but it looks like he is doing well and can plunk away at the keyboard.

He can get me into his parts for under my budget number and all I have to do is build the cabinets. I think this is the direction I want to go. I've heard all kinds of speakers on the market. Been to the boutique stores, been to the RMAF and carefully listened in various rooms. I just really liked the end result of Bruce's stuff best, what can I say. While his Titans were in a smaller room when I heard them it only tells me they will sound even better in my bigger room.

Now...All I will have to do is dig up plans on the cabinets. Seems a number of folks have build these out there so I should be ok. Anyone here ever built them??