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SteveL300
11-26-2005, 01:56 PM
I am the proud new owner of a pair of L300ís. My question is what to power them with. I was thinking about Pioneers Spec 1 and Spec 2.



Any suggestions / Comments on this?

tev
11-26-2005, 02:10 PM
I am using mine with a 15 watts, single ended amp Wavac 801. Much better than a mac7270 or a JBL 6260.

speakerdave
11-26-2005, 02:11 PM
Do you already own those amps, or are you thinking about buying them?

speakerdave
11-26-2005, 02:21 PM
I am using mine with a 15 watts, single ended amp Wavac 801. Much better than a mac7270 or a JBL 6260.
Right, just about any very good quality amp will do within its power limitations. For my similar 4333A's I usually use a 60 wpc tube amp, but I almost always listen at pretty low levels, and I know I'm giving up a lot of the dynamics that the speaker is built for. Every once in a while I get a hair and hook up a 200 wpc solid state amp. I think if you want to get the most out of the speaker you use a high-power, high-current solid state amp if you can find one that also has the refinement you desire. The speaker will tell you about your amps.

David

mbottz
11-26-2005, 02:23 PM
I currently power my set of L-300's with a Spec 1 & Spec 2. They sound very sweet. There may be better amps out there but these sound very good. Lots of watts to handle most anything. I dont think you will be disappointed.


Mike

norealtalent
11-26-2005, 02:25 PM
Golden Tube Audio SE40, Conrad Johnson Premiere Four

All for now, changes will be made:D

Audiobeer
11-26-2005, 08:00 PM
If your looking for sweet highs and mids a tube amp will do fine. If you want that bass that JBL is known for it's best to have more power than not enough. I had a JBL 600, Aragon 4004 MKII and a Mcintosh 2255 hooked up to mine. They sang! I also had a Pioneer SX-1250 and a Sansui AU-919 hooked up top them and they were ok. If you want tubes to drive them It's my opinion that you'll have to go upwards of 100 watts. I like amps with &^$$s!

duaneage
11-26-2005, 09:04 PM
Yamaha made some pretty solid SS amps a few years ago. The pro sound models are used by a few forum members. I have two M-45 Yamahas that produce about 125 into 8 ohms and they work pretty good for me.

Rolf
11-26-2005, 10:04 PM
I am the proud new owner of a pair of L300ís. My question is what to power them with. I was thinking about Pioneers Spec 1 and Spec 2.



Any suggestions / Comments on this?

With my listening experience you need 150 watt pc or more to get the most of your speakers. Any less and you will not have the dynamic headroom needed.

The type of amp to use depends what type of sound you like.

Rolf

SureFire
11-27-2005, 12:07 AM
New member here....Do you want Quality or Quanity of sound? I use a pair of mono bloc DIY SET WE300B Amps ~ heavy power supply, custom output transformers and 50's WE tubes @ 7 watts output with my L300's. A MAGIC lifelike combination, superb imaging, the speakers disappear, just the instruments playing in there own space. Suggest 7 watts with L300's and my audiophile friends were ready to fit me with a straight jacket, UNTIL they came by to listen. The music has the breath of "Life" in it. It's hard to believe that a 7 watt single ended amp could be capable driving L300's, but i'm sure there are other members on this board that use SE amps. I also have Mac 30's & 60's ~ Heathkit W5-M's ~ Radio Craftsmen C-500's ~ Eico HF-14's ~ A pair of Williamson 807 Monoblocs ~ they all sound VERY good on the L300's, but they ALL sound different....and are no match for the SE 300B amps even in the bass! Now I also have a Adcom 5800 and a Dynaco 400 solid state amp....Sure they have more slam on the bottom and you can hear L300's on the next block when you crank it, but the magic is gone from the Music, and to me the Music is what it is all about. My L300's have been rewired with silver-copper Teflon wire, wire terminals replaced and all my crossover caps have been replaced with Rel-Cap Theta's (same values), a major upgrade in resolution.

BTW I also have a pair of Altec 19's ~ L-80t's ~ L-100ti's and a Hartsfield system im still working on.

Brian

Rolf
11-27-2005, 06:15 AM
New member here....Do you want Quality or Quanity of sound?
Hi. Most JBL listeners want quality reproduced at a realistic volume level.

I use a pair of mono bloc DIY SET WE300B Amps ~ heavy power supply, custom output transformers and 50's WE tubes @ 7 watts output with my L300's.
Just one comment: JBL recommends at least twice the power handling of the system. For the L300 this means 300w p/c.

Rolf

pelly3s
11-27-2005, 08:22 AM
I personally would power it with a Crown K2 or an AB 1100... I have set L300's up for a few people and those are the two amps I have found make them come alive.

SureFire
11-27-2005, 10:37 AM
Hi Rolf, I know where your coming from, been there, done that. I went thru the Threshold, Krell, phase with my JBL's, and for most on this forum SS Hi Power Amps will work fine. I too didn't believe in SE tube amps, until I (reluctantly) let my friend come over and demo his SE 300B amps on my L300's over 5 years ago, after that shootout it was goodbye Krell, Hello Single Ended.


Most JBL listeners want quality reproduced at a realistic volume level.


As for a "realistic volume level" trying to fit the Chicago Symphony Orchestra at realistic volume levels into my 24 X 20 listening room.....well it just isn't happening no mater what kind of amp i'm using.

In my point of view, I try and create the exact vibrations in the air that was in the original recording session in my listening room at a comfortable level.

It is a never ending quest.

Everyone, please feel free to comment on this post.

Brian :)

majick47
11-27-2005, 10:40 AM
I have a Yamaha PC4002M amp powering my L300 speakers, the 420x2 watts give it plenty of headroom/slam and the low end is impressive with JBL 2235h woofers. JBL recommends 400 watts for the 2235h woofers. Like anything else it is a "compromise". I tried another Yamaha amp, MX2000 (130 watt x 2), the mids and highs seemed to be just slightly better but this may be due to the loss of the deep base that I had with the PC4002M. From the JBL tech sheet 300 wattsx2 is recommended for the 136a woofer model. All depends on what your looking for, I'm very happy with the results I get from the Yamaha PC4002M amp.

SteveL300
11-27-2005, 11:23 AM
The reason I ask is because some twenty five years ago when I first listen to a set of L300ís they were being powered by Pioneers Spec 1 and Spec 2 with a Technics direct drive turntable, listening to Pink Floydís Dark Side of the Moon. This was back in 1979. I thought the sound was fantastic. In fact it blew my mind!



Since audio equipment has changed so much from those good old days. I just want to make sure I get the right equipment for the job. A lot of you recommend tube amps and to tell you the truth I have never dealt with tube amps. From what Iím reading they tend to give a much warmer sound to the midís.



But I must say I want to make this a simple setup. I have read that giving these babiesís a little power will really light them up, Probably what I remember when I heard them years ago. I have also read that replacing the aluminum diaphragm on the LE85 what phenolic diaphragms would get me the warm sound from the midís.



Thoughts / Comments?

speakerdave
11-27-2005, 01:52 PM
The reason I ask is because some twenty five years ago when I first listen to a set of L300ís they were being powered by Pioneers Spec 1 and Spec 2 with a Technics direct drive turntable, listening to Pink Floydís Dark Side of the Moon. This was back in 1979. I thought the sound was fantastic. In fact it blew my mind! Thoughts / Comments?

Methinks you've found your tribe. Congratulations on dusting off that old desire and making it happen.

We kicked around the idea of doing a test with phenolic but never did. I'm not unhappy with aluminum.

David

majick47
11-27-2005, 03:05 PM
One important factor I forgot to mention that had a lot to do with the decision to power my L300 is the size of my listening room, 19'x26' with a 12' ceiling. Big room, big speakers, big amp, big sound. Also tried Adcom 565 mono amps (300x2), they were fine for the low end but not as smooth with the mids and highs as the Yamaha amps. Will probably end up useing the Adcom 565 for my JBL subs unless I run across another PC4002M.

Ducatista47
11-27-2005, 10:36 PM
New member here....Do you want Quality or Quanity of sound? I use a pair of mono bloc DIY SET WE300B Amps ~ heavy power supply, custom output transformers and 50's WE tubes @ 7 watts output with my L300's. A MAGIC lifelike combination, superb imaging, the speakers disappear, just the instruments playing in there own space. Suggest 7 watts with L300's and my audiophile friends were ready to fit me with a straight jacket, UNTIL they came by to listen. The music has the breath of "Life" in it. It's hard to believe that a 7 watt single ended amp could be capable driving L300's, but i'm sure there are other members on this board that use SE amps.

Brian

Welcome to the club, SteveL300!

I have a setup very much like yours. My room in about 24 x 15 x 8 and my speakers are 4333's. These are pretty identical to L300's. I use an 80 watt per channel Denon solid state amp for movies, but for music it is a Grommes 6 watt single ended tube model all the way. It also kicks a decent 60 watt tube amp I have's butt when playing cd's or vinyl. There is no contest.

I have read in the JBL literature that the 2X power recommendation is to keep clipped signals from destroying the transducers, more than for dynamic headroom to accurately reproduce transients in music. And that is only relevent if you turn things WAY UP. If you do this in a 24 x 15 x 8 room with 4333/L300's, your ears will bleed. These speakers are really loud at three watts.

If you listen at any volume that doesn't hurt, your amp won't clip or go DC on you. The 2X advice, IMHO, is to idiot proof the system, like "no user servicable parts inside" or "do not operate power tools while standing in water or chicken soup." Or more to the point, "Don't listen so drunk or high you can't tell the windows are breaking."

You see, Steve, L300's are a home use version of 4333's, a studio monitor for mixing recordings. Be advised that when these speakers were designed, rock groups sometimes monitored in the mixing room at concert volume levels (can you say "The Who?"), and I'm sure JBL knew that. You're supposed to wear earplugs at those levels. Maybe it's me, but I don't wear plugs when I listen to music from my hi fi rig. Ruins the sound for me.

Some audiophiles I have met think ten watts is all the amp any owner of efficient speakers will ever really need, no matter what they listen to. I heard the same thing in the fifties, too.

Clark in Peoria with his old Monitors and loving them

Rolf
11-28-2005, 12:00 AM
As for a "realistic volume level" trying to fit the Chicago Symphony Orchestra at realistic volume levels into my 24 X 20 listening room.....

No....I believe it would be very limited space for the orchestra, unless your room has a very high ceiling...http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


It is a never ending quest.
Brian http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif

I know. I have been "questing" for 40 years. It never ends. But I have never regret spending all that money on music and hi-fi equioment.

Seriously, I understand your point regrding the 7w p/c, I just do not believe this setup is for most people. They want, like me, to play at a higher volume, and for that you need more power. That was my point for climbing into this thread.

Rolf

Rolf
11-28-2005, 12:06 AM
A lot of you recommend tube amps and to tell you the truth I have never dealt with tube amps. From what Iím reading they tend to give a much warmer sound to the midís.


I agree with that, and can recommend a high quality mos-fet amp. Then you get a "tube sound" with the advantage of a transistor amp. Well, my opinion.

Rolf

Mr. Widget
11-28-2005, 12:59 AM
These speakers are really loud at three watts.
Three watts per channel will get you into the low to mid 90s in a fairly live room of your size... not crazy loud, but it is a level that does sound loud in a home and is a level that I frequently listen to. Three watts is also loud enough that your 6 watt amp is definitely clipping on peaks... it is just that a small tube amp doesn't sound harsh like a 200watt solid state amp will. It will sound musical and start to compress the sound adding a certain level of "excitement".

I would strongly urge you to consider bi-ampng with a 200watt mosfet on the woofer and the SET on the mid and high. This will give you better than both worlds and bring up the performance to an entirely new level. You will need a crossover that is at the level of your SET amp, so I'd suggest a tubed unit from Marchand. Alternatively you could use passive R/C networks between the preamp and the amps.


Widget

Rolf
11-28-2005, 04:50 AM
I can agree with Widget, but since the bi-amping was not in the question, I did not bring it up. I bi-amp my 4343B's using mos-fet amps in both areas.

Rolf

porschedpm
11-28-2005, 06:06 AM
Three watts per channel will get you into the low to mid 90s in a fairly live room of your size... not crazy loud, but it is a level that does sound loud in a home and is a level that I frequently listen to. Three watts is also loud enough that your 6 watt amp is definitely clipping on peaks... it is just that a small tube amp doesn't sound harsh like a 200watt solid state amp will. It will sound musical and start to compress the sound adding a certain level of "excitement".

I would strongly urge you to consider bi-ampng with a 200watt mosfet on the woofer and the SET on the mid and high. This will give you better than both worlds and bring up the performance to an entirely new level.

I have to agree with Widget on this one. When I first got my 4343B's I was powering them with a Cary 15w/ch 300B SET Tube integrated amp. It sounded delicious in the midrange and upper frequencies but just did not have the bass control that I was expecting. It was sloppy on the low end. My listening levels rarely ever exceeded 85db but I don't think that the Cary's 15w/ch and damping factor were enough to adequately control those 15 inch woofers. When I switched to a Pass Labs 250w/ch Class A MOSFET amp it brought back the tight, punchy bass I was lacking with the Cary. But I did lose some of that warmth in the upper frequencies the tubes provided. For me it was an acceptable trade-off. But as Widget states above, you can get the best of both worlds from bi-amping with a SS amp for the bottom end and a tube amp on the top. I considered this for my system but have been pleased with the Pass Lab's overall performance and, for my listening tastes, I don't feel I'm giving up that much with the Class A MOSFET SS amp.

Ian Mackenzie
11-28-2005, 09:42 AM
There is a very good hyprid model made by Vincent that might do the trick.

I saw a review in Aust Hi Fi for a integrated model that had a valve preamp and solid state power amp, 100 watts per channel min into 8 ohms, 200 watts per channel min into 4 ohms.

The review was glowing, they are made in the far east.

http://www.vincent-tac.de/en/produkt/voll/sv_226mkII.php

SteveL300
11-28-2005, 10:20 AM
WOW I canít believe the response on this thread.

You are all really great and the information you are all writing about sounds solid. May I reel you back in for a moment? On my second post on this subject. I had addressed that I was wanting a simple setup. So bi-amping with tube and SS would probably be out of the question.

A lot of you are writing about listening levels. My consideration for this is also simple. I just want to listen to music the way it was meant to be heard. I donít want to bust any ear drums. But I have to admit that there are times when I like to feel the music as well as hearing it, like you would in a live performance. I think the L300ís can archive this without much problem.

My listening room is approximately 16í X 22Ē with a 9íceiling. This is my home theater room which will now double as my music listening room.

One thing I have neglected to say is back in 1977 through 1979 I was employed at JBL in the Quality Assurance department, testing dividing networks, drivers and speakers. When testing the drivers and speakers we used a 10 watt amp and a spectrum analyzer. We would then send a signal through the intended driver / speaker and check it with the spectrum analyzer. If it stayed within its intended range it would pass. I guess what Iím trying to say is I know JBL speakers are very efficient even at 10 watts they can get very loud.

Thank you all for your input on this subject.

SureFire
11-28-2005, 10:36 AM
I would strongly urge you to consider bi-ampng with a 200watt mosfet on the woofer and the SET on the mid and high. This will give you better than both worlds and bring up the performance to an entirely new level. You will need a crossover that is at the level of your SET amp, so I'd suggest a tubed unit from Marchand. Alternatively you could use passive R/C networks between the preamp and the amps.


Widget

Great idea, Mr. Widget and Rolf. Has anyone used a Marchand tube X-over? How's the sound quality? How would it compare to a R/C network between the preamp and the amp? Is there a downside outside of $$$$.

Are any of the forum members going the CES Hi-End Audio Show at Alexis Park in Las Vega's in January? Maybe hook up and swap out some ideas and stories.:)

Brian

scott fitlin
11-28-2005, 12:51 PM
Great idea, Mr. Widget and Rolf. Has anyone used a Marchand tube X-over? How's the sound quality? How would it compare to a R/C network between the preamp and the amp? Is there a downside outside of $$$$.



BrianI have a solid state marchand xover and its quite good! Clean, musical sound!

I have been looking at the XM-126 Tube xover, and I am going to buy one for myself! I spoke to Phil the other day, and according to him, the tube unit is really clear sounding, but has the characteristic warmth of the tubes! The great thing about Phils crossovers is he will build it any way you want it! Whatever gain, xover points, slopes and filter shapes, etc!

What I can tell you at this time of the Marchand XM-126 is the tube he uses is the 12AX7, and Ive heard this tube in other units, preamps, and a freind of mine who has a piece coming out intended for the nightclub market, which utilize 12AX7,s! THAT tube always blows me away! Makes the music so real sounding, rounds off the glare in many of todays recordings, gives the music a top end twinkle, and the bass is believable! Most of all, that tube fleshes out the lower mid, making vocals sound so natural and realistic!

When you speak to Phil Marchand about this crossover I can hear a certain enthusiasm in his voice as he tells you about this particular unit.

I decided to go ahead and get one, Im ordering it this week!

I really dig that 12AX7 tube, alot! :)

SteveL300
11-28-2005, 12:51 PM
Ian,

The Vincent hybrid integrated Amp model # SV- 226MK looks to be a very good and simple compromise of both worlds. I sent Vincent an email asking them about a distributor in the U.S.

Thank you,

Steve

scorpio
11-28-2005, 12:59 PM
I am using a 2A3 based amp to power my system which is basically a L200b but using LE15A for bass (which gives a little more efficiency than the original 136A). The amp is not even 4W but kicks a**. In my 14 by 14' room, I would not need any more power - windows would not handle it.

It buries my previous 200W HK Citation, the bass might be a little less tight but the musicality is a lot better. As I repeated before, you don't need 200W if the 1st one sucks.

I also tried the system with active filters and the SS on the low end, I did not think that it was worth it, but I still plan to try it again some time.

Feedback is, I really do not believe you will need more power than you have at hand

Cheers

Mr. Widget
11-28-2005, 01:14 PM
Feedback is, I really do not believe you will need more power than you have at handI know I would need more power, but you may be right... his room is bigger though and that does make a very big difference in power requirements. I certainly agree that more power is no panacea when the 1st watt sucks.

In my multi amped system, I never even use 1 watt on my drivers above 600Hz.


Widget

majick47
11-28-2005, 02:27 PM
I'll keep this going and throw in one more factor for powering the L300, is the listening room live/dead/neutral? With wall to wall carpeting on a cement slab and heavy drapes over the windows my listening room falls on the dead side. My listening levels are kept at a moderate level, with my large ss amp the sound is very full and accurate. On the other hand my brothers listening room is almost as large but very live and he requires a lot less volume from his ss amp to power his JBLs. I auditioned a pair of L300 in a live listening room powered by a tube amp, the mids/highs were very good but it lacked the solid bass/punch the L300 is capable of. My listening preference is mainly classic rock from the 70s and 80s and for my tastes the L300 is excellent.

Steve Gonzales
11-28-2005, 04:15 PM
I love the L300. Great all around speaker to work with. Cosmic bass, very good midrange and sweet 077 on the top. If I was going to start somewhere and needed a great amplifier to power them, I would try a Yamaha M80 or 85, MX800,1000or 1000u. These underrated amps are clean, musical, offer Class A mode, have a lot of headroom and are quite the "band for the buck". Someone has suggested bi-amping the L300's and I agree with that and will go one further, TRI-amp them!. I use the 300's H92/LE85's in my L220/222's and what that gives me is this, LE14H vs 136A, same midrange except the L94 serpentine vs L91 slantplate, and the 076 vs 077, so they are quite simular in driver complement, not exact, but close. I have found that the effect is dramatic, best I've ever had. I use an M80 on the bottom, 45wpc VTL EL34 on the mids and a M35 (baby Yammy) on the top. WONDERFUL!!!. I use a JBL M553 electronic, again, clean, flexible and reasonable pricing. You can explore the bigger, better, badder stuff as you become familiar with the workings of a multi-amp system. This basic set-up is no slouch, but there is better, I'm suggesting a great combination to try without breaking the bank. I look forward to your impressions whatever you choose. Happy hunting, Steve G

Rolf
11-28-2005, 10:29 PM
Ian,

The Vincent hybrid integrated Amp model # SV- 226MK looks to be a very good and simple compromise of both worlds. I sent Vincent an email asking them about a distributor in the U.S.

Thank you,

Steve

I would NOT go for a Vincent. They sound ok within their price range, but your speakers should use much better amp(s).

Rolf

Rolf
11-28-2005, 10:50 PM
I'll keep this going and throw in one more factor for powering the L300, is the listening room live/dead/neutral? With wall to wall carpeting on a cement slab and heavy drapes over the windows my listening room falls on the dead side. My listening levels are kept at a moderate level, with my large ss amp the sound is very full and accurate. On the other hand my brothers listening room is almost as large but very live and he requires a lot less volume from his ss amp to power his JBLs. I auditioned a pair of L300 in a live listening room powered by a tube amp, the mids/highs were very good but it lacked the solid bass/punch the L300 is capable of. My listening preference is mainly classic rock from the 70s and 80s and for my tastes the L300 is excellent.

Right! The room is a very imprtant factor to concider. To get the most out of a given speaker system it is A MUST to have a quite "dead" room. A very live room will be full of reflections witch will mess up the sound. You will never be able to get the position of each instument in a band or an orcestra.

When I (we) fixed up our living room last year everything from floor, walls, furniture, drapes etc. was carfully selected. This was the first time I was able to do this from the start to finish. What a difference. Later, with the help and desciptions from Ian, about how to set up the speakers, the sound stage is now amazing. If you wonder how I was able to choose the "right stuff", it is only from 40 years of listening experiance. No electroinc readings or other hi-teck stuff.

With this in mind, you need more power that the 7-15W p/c to get the speakers to do their job. As I have said before, in my opinion, 150-300W p/c.

majick47
11-29-2005, 02:24 AM
I have a lot of respect for any forum member that has gone to the effort and expense to aquire a pair of L300 and then carefully select the associated electronics. The different formulas for crafting the sound to please each individual will be a personal choice that's best suited for them. I have very much enjoyed the lively give and take of opinions and will no doubt experiment after reading all the excellent suggestions. It might be a small step but I'v been considering purchasing a tube preamp that has a good mc phono section.

SureFire
11-29-2005, 09:07 AM
Right! The room is a very important factor to concider. To get the most out of a given speaker system it is A MUST to have a quite "dead" room. A very live room will be full of reflections witch will mess up the sound. You will never be able to get the position of each instument in a band or an orcestra.


I concur with Rolf. Room setup is critical for great sound with proper soundstaging and pinpoint imaging. In my case, being a tube purest, I have no tone controls, eq's, filters, ect. Less is best, IMO. My room is "Tuned" with minimal furniture, damped with rugs, drapes, and other devices. Speaker placement in conjunction with listener position has taken weeks of tweaking with different music material to "get it right". Once it's locked in, I draw a road map of the setup. Then you can evaluate other changes, like different brands of tubes, capacitors, wire, amps, ect.

When I bought my house 15 years ago, I took into consideration my main listening room, which had a lot to do with my choice of houses.
Before I moved in I had a 200 amp service pulled just for that room and a 100 amp service pulled for a adjacent 10 X 6 walk-in coat closet where I keep my turntable, tuner, ect. I chose heaviest gauge Romex wire, heavy conduit shielding, and hospital grade Hubbell wall receptacles. The whole service is isolated from the rest of my home, and is grounded with six 5 foot long solid copper 1/2 inch rods driven into the ground in my backyard. No noises in the system from the washer, A/C, or anything esle in my home.

THANK GOD I HAVE A WONDERFUL WIFE THAT GOES ALONG WITH MY MADNESS.

BTW.....At one time I built a pair of sand boxes (with Santa Monica Beach Sand) and put my L300's in them....It didn't sound right....my wife was glad of that.

The never-ending quest continues.....

I hope I haven't bored the forum ~ Brian

Rolf
11-29-2005, 09:12 AM
Hi all. Today I read the following article that I think will give some answers regarding this thread, and this is the physicals laws. Sorry for any spelling errors. And I Quote:

There's is no point in using a pint sized amp and bookshelf speakers in a hall and expecting a great sound.
There's a correct loudspeaker and amplifier for every room.
Large amplifiers and loudspeakers combinations have the potential of delivering a higher quality of sound than their smaller counterparts. So what is the advantages of powerful amplifiers?

Imagine the dynamics of a loudspeaker driver. The moving portion of the driver (the cone) has mass and in order to create sound pressure must displace the air around it (do work) at a frequency dependent upon the source. Supplying and controlling the kinetic energy of the driver cone represents a significant challenge for an amplifier. An idal cone be infinitely light, stiff and have no friction. In reality the cone has both mass and friction.

The amplifier effectively pushes and pulls the driver cone in and out of the speaker cabinet (like an automobile piston) at musical reproduction frequencies. In an ideal system, the driver cone will exactly match these frequencies, but in reality most amplifires struggle to do this effectively as they haven't got the current drive to exert sufficint grip over the cone. To decelerate and stop the cone, then accelerate it to velocity in the oposite direction at musical frequencies is a task that only powerful high current dessign amplifires can perform efficiently.

An inferion amplifier can't exert sufficient contol over the driver cone and as a result the sound can appear smeared.

You'll require a larger amplifirer if you want to fully appreciate the dynamics of music at lower listening levels, alternately if you require your system to produce higher volume levels.

Musical transients can be many times louder than normal and past a certain point a smaller amplifier is unable of reproducing these and will simply "clip" the transients off.

The same scenario applies after a point when increased volume is called for.

The main reason why speaker drivers become damaged, in turn damaging the amplifier is that the amplifier is undersized. The user turns up the volume and past a point the amplifier will begin to clip. Under these circumstances the speaker driver is fed DC, overheats and is permanetly damaged. The amplifier is presented with lower impedance and delivers greater current usually blowing its internal fuse in the process.

The solution to both is to use a powerful amplifier in your audio system.

Rolf

Ian Mackenzie
12-02-2005, 05:54 AM
WOW I canít believe the response on this thread.

You are all really great and the information you are all writing about sounds solid. May I reel you back in for a moment? On my second post on this subject. I had addressed that I was wanting a simple setup. So bi-amping with tube and SS would probably be out of the question.

A lot of you are writing about listening levels. My consideration for this is also simple. I just want to listen to music the way it was meant to be heard. I donít want to bust any ear drums. But I have to admit that there are times when I like to feel the music as well as hearing it, like you would in a live performance. I think the L300ís can archive this without much problem.

My listening room is approximately 16í X 22Ē with a 9íceiling. This is my home theater room which will now double as my music listening room.

One thing I have neglected to say is back in 1977 through 1979 I was employed at JBL in the Quality Assurance department, testing dividing networks, drivers and speakers. When testing the drivers and speakers we used a 10 watt amp and a spectrum analyzer. We would then send a signal through the intended driver / speaker and check it with the spectrum analyzer. If it stayed within its intended range it would pass. I guess what Iím trying to say is I know JBL speakers are very efficient even at 10 watts they can get very loud.

Thank you all for your input on this subject.

If you are still open to suggestions and want something simple but the best call Mark Sammut at Reno HiFi. Mark handles factory reconditions Pass X Series amps. An X 250 or 350 would be the bee's knees given your background, room size and system requirements.

http://www.marksammut.com/List.html

$2499 for an X 250, game over Man.

porschedpm
12-02-2005, 10:06 AM
If you are still open to suggestions and want something simple but the best call Mark Sammut at Reno HiFi. Mark handles factory reconditions Pass X Series amps. An X 250 or 350 would be the bee's knees given your background, room size and system requirements.

http://www.marksammut.com/List.html

$2499 for an X 250, game over Man.

I'll second that emotion. The X Series Pass Labs amps are some sweet-ass-sweet sounding amps. And Mark Sammut is honest and a pleasure to deal with. Mark's Dad is a business associate of Nelson Pass, so Mark has an inside track on the Pass products. Even though most the amps are refurbished, they've all been gone through at Pass and carry a 1 or 2 year warranty. Pass Labs is still a relatively small Company and the pride they take in their work, even the refurbished stuff is apparent.

Nelson Pass has been around since the 70's. His first designs were sold as Threshold Amps. I remember going to the Las Vegas CES show in 1977 when the Thresholds were just hitting the market. They were creating quite a stir because their sound was a huge jump in clarity and purity from most of the rest of the other high end stuff out there at the time. They were Class A amps. Class A amps weren't new but Pass was able to get some decent power figures out of the amps at a time when most other Class A amps produced not much more than a 15w/ch. Nelson Pass also did some design work for some Nakamichi amps (before they went mainstream). You can still find some of these early Thresholds and Nakamichis on audiogon.com. I'm not sure what happened to Threshold. I think the Company fell on hard times in the 80's due to competitive pressure from the consumer electronics market, but Nelson Pass left Threshold, opened Pass Labs in the early 90's and continued to make improvements to his amp designs.

As far as my own experience, I had always used McIntosh equipment for my SS stuff. I then started playing around with a small 15w/ch tubed SET integrated amp. Which sounded great on my L-65's but when I purchased my pair of 4343's I needed more power to control the 15 inchers. So I pulled out my old 150w/ch Mac amp. I then decided to bi-amp the system and needed to get a another amp. I did a little research and liked what I read about Pass and their Class A. So I decided to try out a Pass X250 amp (250w/ch). I purchased it from Mark Sammut. I used the Pass X250 for the bottom end and the Mac MC-150 for the top. The top end was about the same. But I immediately noticed a huge improvement in the detail and authority on the bottom end. The more I listened the more I liked it. I attributed it mostly to the additional 100w/ch because I thought how much difference could an amp make anyway. Then, about 6 months ago, Ian Mackenzie challenged me to try the 4343's without bi-amping and driven by just Pass X250. OMG there was a huge improvement in the upper end clarity and detail, at just a small expense to the bass authority on the bottom end. Admittedly some of the improvement came from removing the Ashly active crossover out of the system but I feel that the at least half of the improvement came from running the top end with the Pass amp now instead of the Mac. Not that the Mac amp was any slouch, but to my ears, anyway I heard more than a slight improvement. This is when I became a avid believer in the Pass Labs amps. Anyway,sorry to ramble on but I wholeheartedly agree with Ian. The Pass X250 delivers Class A performance and can keep up with amps costing three or four times the price that you can get these for from Mark Sammut or on Audiogon. And, I feel with this amp you won't be giving very much at all by not bi-amping. And if you ever do bi-amp, add the matching 150w/ch Pass amp and you'll have a killer system that can't be beat. You'll never need to upgrade again.

Mr. Widget
12-02-2005, 10:40 AM
So bi-amping with tube and SS would probably be out of the question.That's fine.


I just want to listen to music the way it was meant to be heard. I donít want to bust any ear drums. But I have to admit that there are times when I like to feel the music as well as hearing it, like you would in a live performance.

My listening room is approximately 16í X 22Ē with a 9íceiling.Even for chamber music, if you want it to sound real... I can't imagine less than 150 watts... the L300 is more sensitive than many of today's typical speakers... by quite a bit. 93dB vs. 86-87dB... but it's no Klipschorn either. (only talking sensitivity here boys)

If you are into AC/DC, you'll need the Klipschorns.... I wonder if all Klipsch fans like that stuff? :applaud:


Widget

BTW: I agree with the recommendations for the Pass Labs stuff... pricey but darn good.

grumpy
12-02-2005, 11:47 AM
If you are into AC/DC, you'll need the Klipschorns....

paraphrased? - "If you're into evil, you're a friend of mine..." :rotfl:

will have to go to the archives and see if that explains why the Khorns are still
in the living room :rockon1::rockon2: hulking in the corners.

oops. did I type that or just think it ? :blink:

Ian Mackenzie
12-02-2005, 04:25 PM
They will certainly play better with some horse power.....But...you want clean watts to make that horn and slot sound sweet.

Incidentally, Joseph Sammut was previously VP Kell International Sales, he is now President Passlabs

X250 reviews:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_3/pass-labs-x250-amp-8-2002.html

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0202/passx250.htm

http://www.proaudioreview.com/august04/passlabs.shtml

Mr. Widget
12-02-2005, 06:52 PM
Incidentally, Joseph Sammut was previously VP Kell Intl Sales, he now President PasslabsI assume that was meant to read Krell Intl. Sales?

That kind of scares me... I really think that Krell is the poster child of why people think high end audio is a joke. Beautiful stuff, that in my opinion doesn't sound as good as much more affordable gear. It has been brilliantly marketed though.


Widget

Ian Mackenzie
12-02-2005, 08:45 PM
I have a problem with my keyboard...

Would would not attempt to read anything into what I said..but I do know Krell sold well here for a time so there is definately a hi end market.

Its a case of maintaining the critical mass.

pangea
12-03-2005, 01:34 PM
I would like to share my experiences regarding power.

Quite a few years back I had a pair of L300's, which then were powered by a Luxman 5M 21 rated at about 2x120W FTC 8 Ohm and 2x400W at 2 Ohm.
I was in heaven for many years in the eighties.

Now I have a pair of 2235's for the bottom end (see avatar) everything actively driven and the somewhat strange thing is that at first I had one Yamaha PC2602M to power both 2235's, that's about 260W/8 Ohm for each woofer. Then I was offered to buy another of these Yamaha's, which I did of course, so then I could bridge them and have each 2235 be fed by almost 800W/8 Ohm :D

What struck me was that the bottom end control/punch was so much improved, even at moderate levels, that I'm still running the 2235's on one bridged Yamaha PC2602M each!

Call me crazy, but who cares, I love it.

BR
Roland

majick47
12-03-2005, 04:37 PM
Roland I fully agree with your observation that the 2235h can handle a lot of power and produce significant clean bass. I have a Yamaha Pro PC4002m amp (420x2). My L300 Summit came with 136a woofers (300 watt version) which sounded exellent but I couldn't resist installing 2235h woofers making them L300a Summit (400 watt version). The 2235h handle more power and the bass is so good that I feel I would have to add a B460 to make a significant difference. For very reasonable $$$ the older top of line Yamaha home and pro amps are hard to beat.

pangea
12-04-2005, 12:44 AM
Roland I fully agree with your observation that the 2235h can handle a lot of power and produce significant clean bass. I have a Yamaha Pro PC4002m amp (420x2). My L300 Summit came with 136a woofers (300 watt version) which sounded exellent but I couldn't resist installing 2235h woofers making them L300a Summit (400 watt version). The 2235h handle more power and the bass is so good that I feel I would have to add a B460 to make a significant difference. For very reasonable $$$ the older top of line Yamaha home and pro amps are hard to beat.

Yes absolutely these babies really make the woofers sing, but what I don't quite understand, is that the difference was so obvious between the 260W p/c and the 800W when bridged. I mean 260W should really be moore than enough to fully control the cone of the 2235 at moderate levels, i.e. a few watts.
However the bass is now noticeably more detailed and firm, and perhaps also stronger, or at least, it feels like that.

BR
Roland
PS: Do I regret ever selling my L300's? YES! Many times. :banghead: DS.

JBLdave
12-07-2005, 09:16 PM
I have heard most of the above driving my L300's. as well as a few other 'visiting' amps in my living room. I have a SAE 2200 (which is the perfect 4311 amp), and I use an SAE A501 on my L300s and want for nothing. I also like the Luxman M4000 with the L300's

JonathanKeehn
12-11-2005, 05:15 PM
I am extremely pleased with my Bryston 4B 500w solid state amp driving my quasi-L-300's. It has extremely good bass slam and very clear mids and highs. Bryston amps are bullet-proof and have a continuously transferrable 20-year warranty. They are quite affordable and are readily available on Audiogon. They work well on Jazz and Rock but might be judged too harsh for some Classical fans ,who might prefer tubes or a solid state/tube bi-amp set-up.

jbl4ever
12-11-2005, 08:06 PM
Hi all. Today I read the following article that I think will give some answers regarding this thread, and this is the physicals laws. Sorry for any spelling errors. And I Quote:

There's is no point in using a pint sized amp and bookshelf speakers in a hall and expecting a great sound.
There's a correct loudspeaker and amplifier for every room.
Large amplifiers and loudspeakers combinations have the potential of delivering a higher quality of sound than their smaller counterparts. So what is the advantages of powerful amplifiers?

Imagine the dynamics of a loudspeaker driver. The moving portion of the driver (the cone) has mass and in order to create sound pressure must displace the air around it (do work) at a frequency dependent upon the source. Supplying and controlling the kinetic energy of the driver cone represents a significant challenge for an amplifier. An idal cone be infinitely light, stiff and have no friction. In reality the cone has both mass and friction.

The amplifier effectively pushes and pulls the driver cone in and out of the speaker cabinet (like an automobile piston) at musical reproduction frequencies. In an ideal system, the driver cone will exactly match these frequencies, but in reality most amplifires struggle to do this effectively as they haven't got the current drive to exert sufficint grip over the cone. To decelerate and stop the cone, then accelerate it to velocity in the oposite direction at musical frequencies is a task that only powerful high current dessign amplifires can perform efficiently.

An inferion amplifier can't exert sufficient contol over the driver cone and as a result the sound can appear smeared.

You'll require a larger amplifirer if you want to fully appreciate the dynamics of music at lower listening levels, alternately if you require your system to produce higher volume levels.

Musical transients can be many times louder than normal and past a certain point a smaller amplifier is unable of reproducing these and will simply "clip" the transients off.

The same scenario applies after a point when increased volume is called for.

The main reason why speaker drivers become damaged, in turn damaging the amplifier is that the amplifier is undersized. The user turns up the volume and past a point the amplifier will begin to clip. Under these circumstances the speaker driver is fed DC, overheats and is permanetly damaged. The amplifier is presented with lower impedance and delivers greater current usually blowing its internal fuse in the process.

The solution to both is to use a powerful amplifier in your audio system.

Rolf

I think Rolf is right. For the L300's the larger the amp the better the dynamics
In my home theater which uses L300's on the bottom and 4333A's on top
I power them with a Krell MDA 500. It's power output into 4 ohms over a
1000 watts. I am new to this forum and will try to post pictures. The L300's
seem to lose the Lpads or the load resistors or a cap if to much dirty power
is allowed. I have never blown one up in 25 years with clean power. With the
Krell's in class A output I have heard thinks I did not with Thresholds, H.K.'s
Audio Research and others. Maybe try a Pass 350 or 600 or Krell KSA 250 or
larger. These amps really lock in control and imaging.
http://dmbshare.org/pictures/amp003-small.jpg

Zilch
12-11-2005, 08:14 PM
In my home theater which uses L300's on the bottom and 4333A's on top....What does that mean, stacked?

Playing what?

jbl4ever
12-11-2005, 08:37 PM
The L300's are on the bottom and the 4333A's set on top of them. Their is a photo on the post. Center channel speaker on top of RPTV is a 4333. We have
over 500 concerts 2000 albums and lots of cds. The rear channel is mounted in the ceiling and powered by Krell KMA400's these speakers are 240 Ti.

sdman
11-21-2008, 04:34 PM
Anybody have an MX2000 and a CX2000 for sale?

thanks, sam

invstbiker
11-21-2008, 05:40 PM
Anybody have an MX2000 and a CX2000 for sale?

thanks, sam

Perfect example of how a $25.00 per year subscription to this site could be a very positive initiative...

robertbartsch
11-24-2008, 12:26 PM
I've owned dozens of amps including tubes and many high powered SS. I would avoid tubes like the plaugue but many say they are good!

For the money, <$500, go with a new XLS 800D Crown and kill the internal fanz. At 500 WPC, the unit is adequate for your L300s.

elshout
01-07-2011, 07:52 PM
I recently bought a Nakamichi PA-7 (200 watts per channel) that sounds great with my L300a's. I run it at about 85% volume level and IT SOUNDS GREAt!:applaud: I have the mid and treble set at about 3 because I have my 300s about 3 foot from the rear wall and I like the bass a tad heavy. This compares very closely with my Carver Amazing Plantinum's running 750 watts per channel.

Scott

elshout
05-20-2011, 06:34 PM
I have a guaranteed winner setup:

Jbl L300's with 2235 woofers
ADA Cinema Rhapsody (original, Mach 1, Mach 2, Mach3 or Mach 4) a must.
Nakamichi PA 7 or 7 A or Hafler 9500 or 9505.

If you like loud, hard hitting rock music, YOU WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED!

You must have the ADA.(Audio Design Associates) BEST BASS.

This set up stands above all I have tried. The Anthem AV-20 preamp does not even come close to the ADA.

This compares very close to a maximum clean output into Carver Platinum Mark IV's.

Scott:applaud:

midlife
05-22-2011, 09:45 PM
When I had my Summits I used a Crown DC300 power amp and a Metron M1 pre-amp. I know thats not ultra high end electronics but the L300s handled it very well! :D

Doc Mark
05-23-2011, 07:52 AM
Good Morning, All,

We have used an old Harman Kardon 870 amp, at 100 wpc, with our wonderful L300's ever since we got them a few years ago. It has done a fine job of powering them to the levels we enjoy, which is moderate, and somethings a bit more. That amp has only failed to deliver the goods one time, and that was my own fault. Soon after we were blessed to find our L300's, which I had sought for more than 30 years(!), I tried to play a special high end DVD of the 1812 Overture! All was fine the first few times through it, and the L300 + HK 870 combination sounded just fine and quite powerful. BUT, I foolishly decided to crank it up "just a tad more", to better enjoy the glass being blown out of our house when the cannon went off!!! At the first cannon blast, the system IMMEDIATELY went totally silent!!! I thought, "Oh my Lord, I've KILLED our new L300's and blown up the amp"!!!!!

Turns out, I only forced the amp into it's protection mode, which activated instantaneously, saving the JBL's, and other components, from any harm at all. WHEW!! Soon, the amp and speakers singing along, merrily, as usual, and all was well.... the much-embarrassed owner of said system having learned a very valuable lesson on the merits of having more power than you think you might "need"!

But, aside from that one case of owner stupidity, our beloved L300's (with their 2235's) and powered by that 100 watt H/K amp, has sounded, and continues to sound, sweet, wonderful, delicate, powerful, rich, and completely satisfactory to us! For what it's worth..... Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc