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Ian Mackenzie
11-25-2005, 11:45 PM
Thought you guys might be interested in this effort ...hope you can make sense of this..

This afternoon I completed one channel of my first charge coupled network.:applaud:

I decide to use the existing 2122H mid section of the 3145 network..charge coupled and the Hf and uhf section of the 4344mk11 network per the schematic charge coupled as I had those chokes in my workshop.

Also picked up two bags of surplus (100 qty) 250volt 2 uf mains rated capacitors (polypropylene?) for 10 bucks at my diy shop and paralleled them up to make up the values and bypassed them with 0.01 uf polystyrenes.

Initially impressions are promising. Plan to build up the other channel in a day or two.

Me thinks its the way to go for a nice low cost network. The most expensive part is the copper foil..left overs from diy Geortz cables!

This is just mock-up network for evaluation.......so don't cringe too much about the construction

cheers

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
11-25-2005, 11:48 PM
Well I completed the other channel and had a good listen this morning.

One interesting point is that the 4344M11 HF and UHF filters are virtually a drop in alternative for the 3145 network HF and UHF if you have 8 ohm DR82425 diaphragms like me.

I did not have to tweak the L Pads at all.

I think it is very nice, smooth without any noise or obvious grit in the background. Almost a damped controlled quality about the sound.

Maybe not quite the timbre ,transparency and attack I have heard previously but very good.

I certainly applaud the charge coupling for a high value for money crossover network.

My thinking is charge coupling helps tame the titanium diaphragms which can otherwise sound a little hot with less so capacitors ( I also read in a capacitor comparison review some capacitors just don't work with titanium/aluminium domes or drivers..)

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
11-25-2005, 11:49 PM
Ah...

I bit more investigation

The capacitors...what I found essential was getting the bypass capacitors correct.

With the main capacitors (2uf 250 volt mains poly) I am using I found bypassing with 10,000 pf polystyrenes works well.

However the HF filter still needed help in the mid transients so I added 0.047 polypropylene bypass caps but I found I had to keep the 10,0000 pf polystyrene caps in there otherwise the horn would not blend properly with the slot (bypassed with 10,000 pf polystyrene).

Therefore its probably best to stick with a known recipe that works in order to get the goods . The charge coupling cleans it all up but it would seem it can't replace what's not there in the first place.

I figure this is what you pay for when you go for the dollars and buy into premium crossover capacitors like Hovlands, Auricaps and Mundorf Supreme's etc.

But of you are prepared to play and have plenty of time on your hands for less than 1/2 the outlay you may come close to the expensive capacitors.

The purist may prefer to opt for the exotic capacitors but that's what makes the mystic and romance of hi end audio.

Ian

spkrman57
11-26-2005, 03:34 AM
That should give some DIY'rs something to build on.

Ron

Ian Mackenzie
11-26-2005, 05:28 AM
Hi Ron,

Well that was the intention.

Its like many things in life.....seeing..or should I say hearing is believing.

There are some things that just defy measurement and you wonder why it sounds so good for what it is.

There is an explanation on the library product profile pages and also on one of the JBL consumer product brochures

Of course those akin valve pre amp power amps will know that in most a/c coupled stages the coupling capacitor is in effect biased (charge coupled) by a high voltage dc potential difference and the capacitors are often exotic film foil types but audio buffs still complain about the capacitors......in the signal path...God bless their souls....

I like trying new ideas and having recently built and shipped a high end external crossover for a member this gave me the perfect opportunity to put something simple together for my JBL 4345's before I start work on my next assignment for another member...commissioning a large scale active crossover. So there seemed little point in building up another expensive network while I will be using my own system to test a quad active crossover.

Prior to this simple project I have built several elaberate passive crossovers. One using budget metalised polypropolyene capacitors which I grew to hate after building another version using Hovland Musicaps and more recently an external network using the highly regarded Audience Auricaps.

The crossover network is the heart of any great loudspeaker so treat it with the care and attention is deserves when considering your next diy speaker project.

Incidentially, the images below would involve twice as many capacitors if charge coupled so allow plenty of real estate and book time during your next vacation.

Ian

norealtalent
11-26-2005, 06:31 AM
Looks nice Ian. I must admit I envy those with a working understanding to build rather than my minimal knowledge of following directions. It is encouraging to see the building and tweaking process of these things. I gain a little better comprehension of "how it works" everytime an explanation is given. Thank you.:bouncy: :applaud: :bouncy:

Alex Lancaster
11-26-2005, 06:55 AM
:) Ian: I wish my Fúps would look as good as Your mockups, cheers, Alex.

Titanium Dome
11-26-2005, 06:58 AM
Yes, thank you. Illuminating.

yggdrasil
11-26-2005, 12:54 PM
Thanks for sharing Ian.


Will try a charge coupled network for my Sovereigns later this winter.

Ian Mackenzie
11-26-2005, 01:04 PM
Remember to double the value of the existing capacitor and connect two of these values in series and feed the node nine volts via a 2 meg ohm resisters.

Ian

frank23
11-27-2005, 02:15 AM
hi ian,

would it be possible to work with low and high resistors to feed the 9V through?

when starting it up, you could use the low resistor value to charge the caps quickly and then switch to the high resistor to maintain the charge, but not drain the battery

I have read elsewhere that charge-coupled-networks need time to charge the caps and this would be a way of getting the system "up" quicker for AB testing

though, in fact, AB-ing with and without battery would be an unfair test, because without charge-coupling, you would use ony half as many caps in your signal

I prefer paper-in-oil capacitor, but they would be a little large for doubling with charge-coupling. The one in the picture is a 4uF 2000V Sangamo.

frank

Ian Mackenzie
11-27-2005, 03:40 AM
I am not sure.

Either way the capacitors would take time to discharge so to do a proper (immediate comparison) you would need to build a non charge coupled network using identical capacitors.

The battery should last its shelf life so there is no concern leaving it on all the time.

Regards paper and oil capacitors they have as a rule such a strong signature that charge coupling is unlikely to have a significant impact. My understanding is the oil acts to damp the capacitor, that and other characteristics give them a particular character preferred by some.

I think it would be worth your while (for only a small outlay) to obtain some good quality caps, bypass them with 0.01 uf Theta Audiocaps in charge coupled format and compare with your paper and oil crossover.

..see this post for ideas
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=6210&postcount=13

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7144&postcount=45

I might try these next, they are reasonable priced, are available locally and appear to be used by some reputable loudspeaker manufacturers.

http://www.claritycap.co.uk/SA.html



Ian

briang
11-27-2005, 05:24 PM
OK, so I read the whole thread and have no idea what's going on...any chance there is a primer someone can recommend that I might read to do some remedial catch up work?

Zilch
11-27-2005, 05:43 PM
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3555

Rusnzha
11-27-2005, 06:22 PM
Originally Written by Ian Mackenzie


There are some things that just defy measurement and you wonder why it sounds so good for what it is.

I rebuilt the crossovers in my L100s as charge coupled. I used Solens for the main caps and bypassed with .01ufd Theta caps. The most surprising benefit was how the low end tightened up. Since the woofers are wired stright from the inputs, I am curious why this should make such a difference.

Ian Mackenzie
11-28-2005, 01:33 AM
Originally Written by Ian Mackenzie



I rebuilt the crossovers in my L100s as charge coupled. I used Solens for the main caps and bypassed with .01ufd Theta caps. The most surprising benefit was how the low end tightened up. Since the woofers are wired stright from the inputs, I am curious why this should make such a difference.

Can you clarify that?

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
11-28-2005, 04:30 AM
While I don't want to turn this thread into a capacitor Yabbafest here is an interesting article on capacitors

http://www.ellisaudio.com/CrossoverComponents.htm

I also not Sonicraft has expanded their range of capacitors ..with many affordable varieties and other useful diy parts


http://www.soniccraft.com/products/capacitors/film.htm

Ian Mackenzie
12-11-2005, 03:20 PM
Well I have re configured the charge coupled crossover back to the original equivalent (previously 4344 Hf & Uhf sections).

The subltes of passive crossover design are such that some things are best left unchanged. The voicing original equivalent is vastly superior....

I have also done some more development work on my active crossover.

I have a/c coupled the outputs and added speaker protection. Ac coupling helps recide ELF noise and avoids having any trickle of dc offset effective moving the voice coil off centre and therefore causing non linearity.

Because the output are balanced opposite phases, the degeneration cause by capacitors tends to be cancelled as it is in effect a common mode distortion. Currently I am trialling some Nichicon Gold fine Muse capacitors (Gold), they work very nicely. I plan to try some BG's soon.

It would appear class A and class A go hand in hand, actually AAA rated if you account for the class A Se power amps.

My own theory is that at a point where an original design JBL speaker is sufficiently dynamically and tonally accurate that what you heard is at least 75 % of the of the delivery signal chain and the source.

My point being there is a law of diminishing returns of more expensive or more recently produced loudspeakers systems. But perhaps there is much as 75% lattitude in attaining total listerner satisfaction by maximising the source and signal chain and the quality crossover is a key part of that as opposed to attemtping to reinvent/improve the original loudspeaker system design.

Perhaps this is where DIY plays a key part on the Lansing forums.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
12-12-2005, 08:42 PM
Some SA series Clarity capacitors arrived in the mail today to I will try them in the Uhf charge coupled filters.

It will be interesting to see how the perform subjectively

Clarity capacitors are used by leading UK brands including B & W and Tannoy.

http://www.icwltd.co.uk/sa.html

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
12-14-2005, 03:59 AM
The Claritcap's certainly pass a lot more information.

There appears to be a lot more ambience and fine details compared to the bypassed polypropolyne metalised caps.

I suppose this is to be expected. I sense that charge coupling cleans - up the hashness of lesser capacitors making them sound smoother, and if bypassed will offer more air and space.

However, a capacitor is what it is and the quality of the film, foil and winding technique will determine the ultimate degree transparency and tonal accuracy.

Jeff said as much in his response to me regards biasing the Sonicaps.

Incidentally Audience advise charge coupling their Auricaps is unnecessary.

I would suggest having previously used both Hovlands and Auricaps that charge coupling of very good to premium capacitors is probably not going to offer any real improvements. On the other charge coupling its a great way to experience smooth clean performance of moderately priced crossover caps.

These are only my observations, but if you are insane enough to spend $2000-3000 charge coupling a complete passive crossover with Holvands you may well be justified with a claim that it makes it sound better on the way to the nut house! (the money would be better spent on a better source or amps)

Ian

4313B
12-14-2005, 04:29 AM
Jeff didn't seem real charged up about biasing SoniCaps several years ago when I talked to him on the phone.

Ian Mackenzie
12-14-2005, 05:10 AM
Apparently so.

I note he has a new Sonicap now and a wide range of brands..

Ian

4313B
12-14-2005, 05:32 AM
Hmm, now he has GEN II's to bypass GEN I's with. I guess we'll get some to use in Project May since all those are GEN I's. :p

Michael Percy raved about the Dynamicaps he sells, which Jeff is now selling too.

Nice to see he has some polystyrenes available! Rumor in the industry was polystyrene was going away. I guess I need to snag some.

Mundorf Silver/Golds @ $191 for 10 uF. :p

Earl K
12-14-2005, 09:15 AM
- Here's E-Speakers' (http://www.e-speakers.com/) pricing for the SA line from ClarityCap .

- These have been the posted prices for a few months now.
- It'll be interesting to see how well this price list holds ( maybe + 15% ) in the new year .
- Is it after 3 positive reviews that prices jump ? :p


:)

Ian Mackenzie
12-14-2005, 11:54 AM
If it does your dealing with the wrong retailer.

Actually I wroe to E Speakers when they dropped Mundorfs, they said they were not prepared to pass on a sigificant price hike from the manufacturers.

Anyway I think the point is there no excuse for not trying these Claritycaps out, they are cheap and very good value for money.

Here's my supplier pricing, David has been an agent for some time.

http://www.ledeaudio.com/capacitors.html#CROSSOVER%20CAPACITORS:

They also have an elite range of weird looking caps
http://www.claritycap.co.uk/DTAC.html
http://www.claritycap.co.uk/pdffiles/ClarityCap_DTAC.pdf

Ian Mackenzie
12-14-2005, 12:26 PM
I will try out some Blackgates in the active crossover outputs tonight:blink:

JuniorJBL
12-14-2005, 01:44 PM
Would you say that biasing or charging a ClarityCap is not necessary?


I am wondering because I am going to build a new network for my L250's when I get my 044Ti's. (already have 104h's). Does anyone have a recommendation as to what would be the best approach with some cost factors in mind. I am thinking I would like to keep parts price in the $500-$600 range or less.

Ian Mackenzie
12-14-2005, 01:58 PM
I will take the battery off and let you know!

Give me a day or two.

:)

DavidF
12-14-2005, 04:02 PM
The Claritcap's certainly pass a lot more information.

There appears to be a lot more ambience and fine details compared to the bypassed polypropolyne metalised caps.

I suppose this is to be expected. I sense that charge coupling cleans - up the hashness of lesser capacitors making them sound smoother, and if bypassed will offer more air and space.

However, a capacitor is what it is and the quality of the film, foil and winding technique will determine the ultimate degree transparency and tonal accuracy.

Jeff said as much in his response to me regards biasing the Sonicaps.

Incidentally Audience advise charge coupling their Auricaps is unnecessary.

I would suggest having previously used both Hovlands and Auricaps that charge coupling of very good to premium capacitors is probably not going to offer any real improvements. On the other charge coupling its a great way to experience smooth clean performance of moderately priced crossover caps.

These are only my observations, but if you are insane enough to spend $2000-3000 charge coupling a complete passive crossover with Holvands you may well be justified with a claim that it makes it sound better on the way to the nut house! (the money would be better spent on a better source or amps)

Ian

Thanks for this thread, Ian. Though I have no experience to contribute I wanted to chime in to say I am reading this with much interest.

DavidF

Ian Mackenzie
12-14-2005, 04:05 PM
Good,

Nothing like a bit of diy fun.

Ian

4313B
12-14-2005, 04:07 PM
Yeah, but all this could have been avoided had I simply kept my mouth shut. :p

JBLnsince1959
12-14-2005, 08:21 PM
Yeah, but all this could have been avoided had I simply kept my mouth shut. :p

I'm soooo glad you didn't. I've enjoyed this thread, becasue as you know I've been thinking about CC'ing my PS speakers. I have some questions ( and comments), but that'll have to wait until tomrrow...Nice thread Ian

Ian Mackenzie
12-14-2005, 09:14 PM
Yeah, but all this could have been avoided had I simply kept my mouth shut. :p

What...your cake hole has significant importance.....please keep it open!:p

Ian Mackenzie
12-15-2005, 02:26 AM
Okay,

My own observation is that while I am only using the Claritycap on the Uhf (slot) when comparing the charge-coupling "On" to "off" position the top end sounded hot compared to "off" where the top end blends better with the upper mids in the "off" position.

The detail is still there in "off" position but it will less pronounced, the tops stand out more in the ""on" position which is interesting. You can sort of look deeper into the sound but some may describe the effect as accentuating the top end, exaggerated perhaps

In the current set-up I have metallised polypropylenes bypassed with polystyrene 0.01 caps and charge coupled everywhere else.(I discharge all the capacitors to perform the comparisons)

If the horns had the claritycaps my observations might be different. I might say the horns and slot are both bright and I might be tempted to crank them back but that remains to be seen.

That's as much as I can say until I decide to buy more Claritycaps.


Ian

Rusnzha
12-15-2005, 06:02 AM
That sounds typical. When I made the charge coupled crossovers for my L100s, I had to back off the mids about a half. It balanced right out and sounded great!

rek50
12-15-2005, 07:02 AM
Wonderful Thread! Just when I "Thought" I had Mystic Recipe #XXXX all worked out, here comes some new "Spices" for the perfect blend, as in cheap/road tested caps. Thanks for the links and "Ideas"!

Ian Mackenzie
12-30-2005, 03:20 PM
While on holidays I propose to make a couple of passive crossovers with the Claritycaps.

They will not be charge coupled so to some extent this may seem off topic but I have my reasons..........

I tried it with this particular variety and while interesting it was a little too bright but that is only my observation.

They seem to perform well enough functioning naturally.These are pure film and foil (not metailised like the Solen's) and are rated at 630 volts.

From what I have read they made in consultation with speaker manufacturers like B+W and Tannoy so maybe they are voiced well enough to work right out of the box. The construction is first rate.

I also wanted to build two crossovers, a new equivalent 3145 and a 3141. I could not see the point on spending $200 on one crossover when I could two for $100.00 .

That does not mean I discourage charge coupling but sometimes some exploratory listening tests and circumstance pays dividends.

The

Watch this spot.

Ian

JuniorJBL
12-30-2005, 04:53 PM
Will the entire crossover be built with the claritycap?

I am very interested in your findings.:bouncy:

4313B
12-30-2005, 05:47 PM
I tried it with this particular variety and while interesting it was a little too bright but that is only my observation.

How long did you run them though before making a decision? Run them good for a week or two and then pull the battery.

I also wanted to build two crossovers, a new equivalent 3145 and a 3141. I could not see the point on spending $200 on one crossover when I could two for $100.00 .

I hear you. I leave biasing as the final step to something I want to keep around for myself.

That does not mean I discourage charge coupling

Glad to hear it because that would put you directly at odds with THE MAN and he has too many home runs under his belt to ignore.

sometimes some exploratory listening tests and circumstance pays dividends.

Could be. I do want to try some of these capacitors too.

JuniorJBL
12-30-2005, 05:59 PM
that would put you directly at odds with THE MAN

:yes: :rotfl:

Ian Mackenzie
12-30-2005, 06:51 PM
Hi,

JBL Junior..Yes .

Giskard.... I run it for about two weeks. I don't think this should be regarded as conclusive as the whole crossover was not charge coupled!

I would still like to build a crossover per Greg's own recipe!

Ultimately I want to quad amp and this is another reason for using the above as a good but not by any means ultimate crossover.

regards

Ian

4313B
12-30-2005, 07:37 PM
Understood. I'm not 100% convinced that the best grade capacitors do benefit from biasing. I think Jeff has told you and I both that doing so may merely cause them to be different as opposed to better. Jeff even suggested that the battery itself could introduce dirt into an otherwise clean filter circuit. I think we're talking considerable cash outlay to get to that point though.

Ian Mackenzie
12-31-2005, 02:10 AM
Exactly.

So far..

1. Bypassing the parrelleled mylar / polyropolyne metalised capacitors with 0.01 polystyrene does make an improvement.(improves ambience)

2. Further bypassing of the horn filter with small film foil capacitors makes further improvements.(improves transient details)

3. Charge - coupling the above makes another improvement (removes background hash)

4. Pure film capacitors (Claritycaps SA Series) non bypassed but charge coupled produced a different result and the user would need to try and taste test for there application.

5. Pure film capacitors (Claritycaps SA Series) (non bypassed)
(improvement in transparency over all previous 1 - 3)

Research : I could not measure any change in amplitude of the a/c signal through the charge-coupled / non charge-coupled capacitors however the music signal certainly sounded difference and brighter in (4), almost a burnt glared quality.

Giskard interesting that you talk about batteries. A long way back I bought a Crystal Logic DAC evaluation board and tried different power supplies...batteries produced a tarnished quality.

Conclusions so far:

I braved 40+ c temperatures today and installed the Claritycaps late this afternoon..running class A power amps on a hot day is not recommended.

I think I am resonably sure in saying they Charge-coupling does make a noticeable improvement if you want to built a passive network on a low budget using inexpensive mylar or metalised polypropolyne capacitors and that bypassing does add further refinement in transient detail and ambience.

You don't get anything for nothing however and as you progress to better capacitors (either metailise or film*) you will find improved transparency and information retreival that surpases even even what charge-coupling and bypassing does for low cost / quality capacitors. Of course if you have the budget a charge-coupled crossover using premium capacitors would be the ultimate.

*There is a wide variation in performance of either film and foil or metalised types and there are excellent and average examples of both.

I really like the Claritycaps and think they are very good value for money even using is non charge-coupled mode.

When funds and time permits I consider a charge - coupled Claritycap crossover. On their own they certainly are hot on tails of the more exotic types. They do sound very good on the 2307/2308 horn and slot which in my experience is the acid test of how good and bad a capacitor can sound because the sound is mostly directed to the listener and not washed and softened by the reverberant field of the room as with CD horns.

Happy listening.

Ian

4313B
12-31-2005, 02:26 AM
I remember during one conversation with Jeff that he didn't seem too fired up about using Sonicaps with JBL compression drivers. He felt the Relcaps were better in that application. I'll have to give the SA Claritycaps a try and see how they do.

Quite a difference in price between the two U.S. Distributors:

ICW Clarity Cap - SA Series 20.00 uF $34.16

ClarityCap SA range SA Values (uf): 20uf $17.36

According to one distributor the PX Series is priced to compete with the Solens.

Ian Mackenzie
12-31-2005, 03:50 AM
Hmm,

Jeff is pretty sharp. This is the thing with all this stuff......

Well I am watching Eric at the moment and I'm impressed.

My Aust Distributor sells the 20 uf for A$15.90 ea.

Allowing for exchange rate of say 1.35 that is A$11.77 to you plus postage

Might be worth an email to http://www.ledeaudio.com/capacitors.html
to see what David can do for you plus postage...I found him very obliging.

Ian

skeptical1
12-31-2005, 04:54 AM
Anyone know the difference betweeen the black SA series Claritycaps and the Yellow SA series Claritycaps??
I have used the yellow ones as shown in Ian's photo and think they are excellent.

4313B
12-31-2005, 07:10 AM
Allowing for exchange rate of say 1.35 that is A$11.77 to you plus postageInteresting... I'm sure any U.S. Distributors will ask premium prices.

Ian Mackenzie
12-31-2005, 09:16 AM
Anyone know the difference betweeen the black SA series Claritycaps and the Yellow SA series Claritycaps??
I have used the yellow ones as shown in Ian's photo and think they are excellent.

According to the manufacturer Data the SA series is available black as standard and other colour tapes to order.

The Claritycaps I have are the SA series.

Ian

MJC
12-31-2005, 09:40 AM
Having read thru this thread, there is one point I'm not sure of. Is the CC networks being used with by-passing caps as well, or is it one or the other?

4313B
12-31-2005, 09:54 AM
The biased networks I've built with Dayton (Bennic) metallized polypropylene caps also required AudioCap polypropylene and foil bypass caps. The biased Solen metallized polypropylene networks I've built didn't seem to need bypass caps. I'm working with SoniCaps right now and might spring for some GEN II bypass caps for them. They are unbiased. I'll be comparing them against ClarityCaps if I get the ClarityCap samples I asked for.

I need to send you those pair of conventional 3113 networks I finally pulled John. PM me with your address again if you want to try them out in your L212's.

JuniorJBL
12-31-2005, 10:16 AM
I am not sure but I would be willing to go in with some people and order Claritycaps from Ian's dist. It might be worth while for a bigger order.

Ian
Thanks for all of your research and knowledge.:)

Giskard
Thank you for your knowledge and research that you share with us.

This thread has been very good reading. Thanks again all:applaud:
Shane

4313B
12-31-2005, 11:12 AM
I am not sure but I would be willing to go in with some people and order Claritycaps from Ian's dist. It might be worth while for a bigger order.Not a bad idea! :yes: Buying in quantity works for Walmart! :rotfl:

Ian Mackenzie
01-06-2006, 07:30 AM
I will post some pics of these Claritycaps assembled in the crossover shortly..they are quite substancial even for 630 volt varieties.

Incidentially, while all the talk of the wow factor over crossover capacitors is fun and we have all the newbies wowing over the 2308 don't forget those L Pads.

I reset and calibrated everthing tonight and it really does pay dividends and in my mind is "the" difference b/n sounding great and being "there".

Fine tuning the levels with some degree of precision is a must.

My method is posted elsewhere.

Ian

4343mod
01-13-2006, 05:05 PM
Hi Ian, very good looking work you have done, nice job!
I'd like to see some new RTA data once it's all set & finished. ;)

Ian Mackenzie
01-13-2006, 06:32 PM
What are you specifically looking for..I may already have it saved in The Tardis archives.

Ian Mackenzie
01-14-2006, 02:57 AM
Your a time waster of my resources and your barred from this thread.

There are too many genuine members and posters who are in the que regards purpose of this thread.

Ian

4343mod
01-15-2006, 10:57 AM
OK, I'll leave but not before pointing out that your resources would best be saved by IGNORING me, rather than spraying me with rude insults. Such angry outbursts only consume your resources, and your health.
Pure logic.
Maybe you should relax and try to have some fun. I'm gone.

Ian Mackenzie
01-15-2006, 11:30 AM
Thanks,

But I think you missed the point.

You made out you requesting "new" information. Fine. It can take several days to prepare and organise measurements then a few more days to edit and post them...I am glad I didn't for your sake. Then in the same breathe admit there was not substance behind your earlier post. Try doing that in every other thread on the forums and see what happens to you!

When your've got something worthwhile to contribute and relevant to the topic by all means post.

Earl K
01-17-2006, 08:42 AM
- Here's E-Speakers 2006 prices for the SA series from ClarityCap .
- ( BTW ; I've no affiliation with E-Speakers or ICW )
:)

mvaldes
02-12-2006, 10:38 AM
I found very interesting this thread and I would like to share some doubt I have.
I want to upgrade the stock and aged crossover that I have on my 4430 monitors.
I don't want to start with charge coupling, because this means to start from a scratch, so I decided to change the capacitors with new and better ones.

Reading this thread gave me some suggestions and I'm ready to do it.
I've taken into consideration different brands and the first thing that obviously come out is the price differences between them.

If using AUDIOCAP Theta, the cost for the components (C3/C5/C9/C11) is about $340, while using AURICAP it will cost about $200.
In this thread I've "discovered" Clarity cap. Using these capacitors will cost about $ 45 (all costs here are for two crossover).
These numbers do not include the bypassing capacitors (and C7-20uF because this is only necessary when in Biamp mode)

The "sound" difference is really related to the cost ?
I mean, if I use the AUDIOCAP, the difference will be really "there", or I'll be "biased" by the cost, and could obtain the same result with Clarity cap (or similar products)?
If I use these high-grade capacitors (Audiocap or Auricap) should I still use the bypass capacitors ? And with Clarity cap ?

IAN, sorry if I jumped in this thread with these questions that can sound stupid, but this is my first approach to crossover rebuilding and I'll appreciate any suggestion from you and all other members that for sure are more experienced than me.

Michele

Ian Mackenzie
02-12-2006, 11:18 AM
Michele,

Good question..

The "sound" difference is really related to the cost ? Yes but not a linear scale and it will depend on other things. What active crossover and amps are you using for example.
If you have expensive amps etc spend accordingly on your crossover to maximise retrieval and transparency of sonic details.

I mean, if I use the AUDIOCAP, the difference will be really "there", or I'll be "biased" by the cost, and could obtain the same result with Clarity cap (or similar products)? I have not used the Audiocaps and I would be careful about what capacitors I used in the 4430. You do not want anything overly bright on the compression drivers. Each brand will have a slightly different sonic signature. Have a look at the Sonicap web page and zip Jeff an email, he is very experienced with capacitor selections

If I use these high-grade capacitors (Audiocap or Auricap) should I still use the bypass capacitors ? No no necessarily , I never bypassed or charge coupled my Hovland 4430 network or Auricaps. And with Clarity cap ? Its a value for money option, I am not saying its the best or the worst. They are a good entry point but they are not a Hovland for example.



My suggestion would be set a budget. and perhaps look at the Auricaps, or the Hovlands as they are not bright like some West Coast film foil capacitors. The Hovlands worked supremely well with that network and the drivers from my own experience. I recall thinking wow, that was expensive but it transformed the 2344 horn into a hi end device.

If on a buget consider or build a Solen/bypassed charge - coupled network.

Pm me details of your system , active crossover etc.

Don't waste time or effort on budget line capacitors, whats in there is probably better.

Hope this helps:)

mvaldes
02-12-2006, 12:21 PM
Thank you very much IAN
This help me a lot



Michele

Earl K
04-19-2006, 07:52 AM
Tony Gee(s)' Spring 2006, Capacitor Evaluations . (http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html)

- Worth Noting; Tony almost exclusively builds "Series Style" networks . This puts the caps ( & coils ) in parallel to the drivers.
- The significance ? One shouldn't ignore the "sound of caps" that are being used as conjugates across the load / ie ; shunted to a common ground. ( This has been stated before , but is worth reinforcing ) .

:)

4313B
04-19-2006, 08:12 AM
Have him test biased Solens.

Parallel or series, it doesn't matter, they are equally important. And you're right, it has been stated several times before.

MJC
04-19-2006, 08:37 AM
Have him test biased Solens.

I just finished building two CC networks for my main L/R L212s(I used all Solen caps). Thanks Giskard for the posted L212 CC network.
I've been listening to them for the last two days. They are not as dynamic as the bypass cap xovers the CC replaced, but the sound is cleaner and more open. I don't think the difference between the CC and bypass xover is as great as the difference between the bypass cap xover and the original xovers.
In fact at first I only installed the CC in the right L212 and then listened to stereo music, I could tell that the two speakers weren't the 'same'. And that is where I could tell the difference in the dynamics. Then I put the other CC in and then the music was totally clean.

spkrman57
04-19-2006, 08:41 AM
You should find a slight change in the sound signature when the caps get some burn-in time.

I usually find the sound gets smoother and less biting after some time.

Ron

MJC
04-19-2006, 08:51 AM
Ya, I would expect some change, but not sure in what direction the sound will go.

Earl K
04-19-2006, 09:26 AM
Have him test biased Solens.

- I don't know Tony or have any contact with him /
- I would like to read updated reviews of his complete cap collection after being put into a DC biased mode ( I'm sure that would take a few years to accomplish ).

:)

Earl K
04-19-2006, 09:50 AM
You should find a slight change in the sound signature when the caps get some burn-in time.

I usually find the sound gets smoother and less biting after some time.

- Biased or non biased , I find caps do tend to get smoother sounding after burn-in .

- I hear the DC charge, as largely adding a bit of damping to the AC signal ( after passing through the caps holding onto the DC potential ) .

- For the last year I've been searching for a DC voltage that balances the positive effects ( of dampening in the midrange & presence areas ) with the negative effect that the same dampening has on UHF frequencies. Generally, I feel that too much DC charge gives an over-dampened effect to the HF and VHF areas,( which is a real bitch to contend with, when running a system without a tweeter.) The UHF "tinklies" will almost actually disappear when the AC signal is overdampened. As a result, all three of my DC voltages are now below 6 volts ( one, as low as 4.5 volts ) . I no longer DC bias my bypass caps for this reason .
- Every few months ( over the last year ) I would bleed off some DC charge ( & perhaps disconnect the battery ) to arrive at a new working voltage. With or without a battery attached , it seems to take a few weeks for the new DC voltage to completely redistribute its' dc potentials across all the ions within the cap. A complete distribution of this DC potential vs a "lumpy" or "disturbed" distribution ( for the same cap ) sounds different to my ears .
- These impressions have been gathered from listening to Altec 288-8K(s) which to my ears ( as I've said before ) , start out with a more dampened HF signature when compared to any JBL compression driver that I've owned or heard .



:)

Ian Mackenzie
04-22-2006, 08:55 PM
Earl,

Thanks for the updated impressions.

On my agenda is a biased Solen network in the next few months.

I also want to try an adjustable regulated DC power supply (3-30 volts LM 317) and get some impressions.

Have you tried different batteries..alkaline?

Its funny that most if not all valve amps have a dc blocking capacitor in the signal path with often 100's of volts Dc potential on them. But I have never heard anyone say they lack dynamics.....:blah:

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
05-10-2006, 01:05 AM
I am not sure quite why but recent comparions of the Clarity cap in hi level signal coupling capacitor application was less than desirable when compared to premium grade Auricaps.

More on this soon

Ian

MJC
05-10-2006, 08:10 AM
Its been over three weeks since I finished the Solen CC networks for the main pair of L212s. The sound is as smooth as can be, but the highs are still present.
When listening for extended period of time(3~4 hrs, or more) I get no ear fatique at all. I would only get occassional fatique before, it seemed to depend on the recordings.
With the mains being mirror imaged and CC the L212s have reached their zenith, I'd call that damn good for 29 year old system. Now I'm in even less of a hurry than before to buy new speakers.

Ian Mackenzie
08-09-2006, 11:04 PM
My Solen Fast capacitors arrived direct from the factory today so I will start on this over the weekend.

For those interested I managed to order the exact values so there will be no need to parrellel values .All rated 400 volts.

27 uf + 30uf = 14 uf
24uf + 24 uf = 12 uf
16uf + 16 uf = 8 uf
6.2uf +6.2 uf = 3.1uf
3uf + 3 uf = 1.5 uf
2uf + 2 uf = 1 uf

The plan is to have a baseline crossover so I can referecne my measurements and subjective impressions against those of other members and factory recommendations.

I also plan to mod the 5535 JBL active crossover to be current spec with recommendations, bypass all capacitors. I may also try class a bias of the 5332 opamps.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
08-12-2006, 10:26 PM
Initial impressions are favourable.

I'm re wiring the entire system and will post more details shortly

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
08-13-2006, 06:58 AM
Well I played a few tunes tonight and I think it is good.

I have decided to start off driving the system full passive using a big HT Kenwood amp rated at 140 watts a side. I figure this it represents a typical mid range mass market amp and it would allow people to relate more broadly to the subjective impressions.

Is connecting the battery audible? Definately. Everything becomes more transparent with a nice clean finish. None of the Solen 400 volt Fast caps are bypassed at this point as i wanted to sart off with a baseline.

My suggestion is that any JBL system of original stock factory design would beneft from a charge coupled Solen crossover network.

Is it better than other capacitors? I don't know yet and I don't propose to comment on any critcal sort of appraisal or do any mods like bypassing until I re organise the system running biamped with my Passlabs amps.

The thing is it works and its not expensive in the real scheme of things.

My bill of parts cost US$108 for the mid, HF and UHF filters.

Ian Mackenzie
08-13-2006, 07:01 AM
Well I played a few tunes tonight and I think it is good.

I have decided to start off driving the system full passive using a big HT Kenwood amp rated at 140 watts a side. I figure this it represents a typical mid range mass market amp and it would allow people to relate more broadly to the subjective impressions.

Is connecting the battery audible? Definately. Everything becomes more transparent with a nice clean finish. None of the Solen 400 volt Fast caps are bypassed at this point as I wanted to start off with a baseline.

My suggestion is that any JBL system of original stock factory design would beneft from a charge coupled Solen crossover network.

Is it better than other capacitors? I don't know yet and I don't propose to comment on any critcal sort of appraisal or do any mods like bypassing until I re organise the system running biamped with my Passlabs amps.

The thing is it works and its not expensive in the real scheme of things.

My bill of parts cost US$108 only for the mid, HF and UHF filters.

Chas
08-13-2006, 07:43 AM
Well I played a few tunes tonight and I think it is good.

I have decided to start off driving the system full passive using a big HT Kenwood amp rated at 140 watts a side. I figure this it represents a typical mid range mass market amp and it would allow people to relate more broadly to the subjective impressions.

Is connecting the battery audible? Definately. Everything becomes more transparent with a nice clean finish. None of the Solen 400 volt Fast caps are bypassed at this point as i wanted to sart off with a baseline.

My suggestion is that any JBL system of original stock factory design would beneft from a charge coupled Solen crossover network.

Is it better than other capacitors? I don't know yet and I don't propose to comment on any critcal sort of appraisal or do any mods like bypassing until I re organise the system running biamped with my Passlabs amps.

The thing is it works and its not expensive in the real scheme of things.

My bill of parts cost US$108 for the mid, HF and UHF filters.

Very interesting and thanks Ian. How long does it take after you add the polarising voltage to hear a difference? Is immediate?

MJC
08-13-2006, 09:11 AM
None of the Solen 400 volt Fast caps are bypassed at this point as i wanted to sart off with a baseline.

If those Solens are Polypropylene caps, like the ones I used, there is no reason to bypass. Using Polypropylene caps for bypassing in a xover is to make the sound more dynamic. Where as using Polystyrene bypass caps on the tweeter circuit will make them more airy.
The main reason for CC networks is to make the xover more linear and if the caps are polypropylene then they are already more dynamic.

Ian Mackenzie
08-13-2006, 02:11 PM
Very interesting and thanks Ian. How long does it take after you add the polarising voltage to hear a difference? Is immediate?

Yes.

Ian Mackenzie
09-10-2006, 06:52 AM
Follow some disruption due renovations I tried the Charge Coupling network tonight.

The network uses Solen 400 volt Fast Caps un bypassed.

I played several things I know quite well.

My impressions are one of blandness, its clean but something is missing (quite a lot is missing actually) and the sound has a dry quality almost sandy quality about it. Its a good result but not what I would call an equivalent to premium grade film and foil caps by any means.

I think the charge coupling makes a big difference to caps of this quality but it does not make a silk purse out of a sour's ear if you get my drift.

I will try bypassing and see what happens. If that does not do it for me I willgo back to the Clarity caps and leave it at that until I can arrange something from Sonicraft.

Ian

MJC
09-10-2006, 07:15 AM
Follow some disruption due renovations I tried the Charge Coupling network tonight.

The network uses Solen 400 volt Fast Caps un bypassed.

I played several things I know quite well.

My impressions are one of blandness, its clean but something is missing (quite a lot is missing actually
Ian
I used the Solen 400VDC caps on my cc network for the L212. From my experience, it takes a few days to break-in the network. The fact the the Solens are Polyproplene will(should) produce a somewhat dynamic sound. It is, in fact, Polyproplene caps I used for bypassing on my original xovers for those same speakers. And as Giskard has mentioned using the Solens in a CC network should negate the need for by-passing.

JBLnsince1959
09-10-2006, 08:35 AM
I think the charge coupling makes a big difference to caps of this quality but it does not make a silk purse out of a sour's ear if you get my drift.

I will try bypassing and see what happens. If that does not do it for me I willgo back to the Clarity caps and leave it at that until I can arrange something from Sonicraft.

Ian

Thanks Ian..I've been waiting for this.:applaud: I remeber Giskard saying it takes a day or so for the full charge to work ( I think)

However, I have some questions if you don't mind
1. are the Clarity caps CC'ed and are they what you usually listen too and comparing the Solens to?

2 Have you listened to the Sonicraft in your system and were they CC'ed

forgive me asking but I can't remember your setups( I'm going to reread your posts).

thanks for the posts..I've been wanting to CC the PS and I'm very interested in the caps ( as you know)

thanks for a great thread:bouncy:

Ian Mackenzie
09-10-2006, 09:03 PM
I am going to check everything and have another listen, give me a couple of days...

JuniorJBL
09-10-2006, 10:16 PM
Thanks Ian
For your report. This is very important for me as well because I will build networks for the 250ti's this winter. Keep us posted.!!
Shane

Ian Mackenzie
09-12-2006, 10:18 AM
Okay.

I have had some renovations recently and as a result everything got relocated and moved back so it took a bit of re organising to recover the system.

Now the meaty bit.

Firstly I like the charge-coupled idea, its a great entry point to a reasonable presentation and its not expensive. Adding the nine volt battery makes a difference, it smooths but it also softens the Solens and I felt at least in my system the horns and the slots needed a touch more boost and this added some ambience I felt was lost when the battery was turned on. I am not sure what the upside of bypassing is as I have not tried that yet.

The idea of the battery and the voltage potential has been well covered elsewhere so I will not go over that again. The effect may well work better on some systems than others. My power amp (Passlabs X250.5 http://www.passlabs.com/amplifiers/x250_5.htm) is a balanced design meaning it does not have an earthed negative, both sides are hot and of oppossing phases and in this respect the amp was doing the Solens a service as they sounded better even with the battery off.. I felt the effect of charge coupling was more obvious with a singled ended amp.

Do I think Charge Coupling is the last word in crossover network capacitors..not really. It works but it in my mind also shows the inherent weakness of a particular capacitor when you have been using other premium grade capacitors and you know your system well. For example, as I said adding the battery smooths and clears the sound, but it does not recover lost information nor does it recover tonality or lost transients. Although I felt the Solens give a neutral tonality they also not completely transparent. So be prepared to bypass and experiement.

My suggestion is to try it and see how it goes, is not expensive but be prepared to fiddle a bit and try bypassing with some film foil small values of polypropolyne and polystyrene film foil in very small values to tailor the system to your liking.

I am not sure if any 4345 owner/ members have tried charge coupling with Solens .

If I get time I will add some bypass capacitors tomorrow (today) and advise what happens.

I may also offer this 3145 equivalent crossover for sale at a very reasonable price. Pm me to register your interest.

Ian

MJC
09-12-2006, 05:47 PM
Firstly I like the charge-coupled idea, its a great entry point to a reasonable presentation and its not expensive. Adding the nine volt battery makes a difference, it smooths but it also softens the Solens and I felt at least in my system the horns and the slots needed a touch more boost and this added some ambience I felt was lost when the battery was turned on. I am not sure what the upside of bypassing is as I have not tried that yet.

I haven't bypassed my CC networks, not yet, anyway. My system is all radiator tweeters, where as your system is horns, difference #1.
What happens when you use bypassing caps depends of what type of cap you use, at least in a non CC crossover.
If you use polyproplene bypass caps, the sound will be more dynamic.
Using polystyrene bypass caps will give you a more airy sound.
Of coarse you can use both together, across a HF circuit, even MF, I guess, with the polystyrene bypass cap being 1/2 the value of the polyproplene bypass cap.
I was going by what Giskard told me, that if you use Solen caps in a CC that bypassing isn't needed. But, that was for my L212 CC network. With your horn loaded system, that may very well be completely different.



It works but it in my mind also shows the inherent weakness of a particular capacitor when you have been using other premium grade capacitors and you know your system well. For example, as I said adding the battery smooths and clears the sound, but it does not recover lost information nor does it recover tonality or lost transients.

I can't find it now, but GT said in an article about the K2 5500, I think it was, using a CC network tighten up "loose" caps and loosened "tight" caps, if I remember right.

Ian Mackenzie
09-12-2006, 08:30 PM
Thanks Ian..I've been waiting for this.:applaud: I remeber Giskard saying it takes a day or so for the full charge to work ( I think)

However, I have some questions if you don't mind
1. are the Clarity caps CC'ed and are they what you usually listen too and comparing the Solens to?

I tried CC on the Clarity Caps with the slots only temporarily, I was not prepared to spend the extra funds on a fully CC Clarity cap crossover at the time as it was just a work in progress and the difference was only marginal using CC. I was a previously using non CC Clarity Caps not bypassed in the crossover and I think think they impressive and are excellent value.

2 Have you listened to the Sonicraft in your system and were they CC'ed.

No, not yet. I sent him email to Sonicraft on suggestions and his response was look at the Cardas or Mundorf if I wanted better than Clarity caps or the Auricaps. He does not think CC is necessary with premium quality caps. All things considered that is most likely the case and why would you considering the cost!

forgive me asking but I can't remember your setups( I'm going to reread your posts).

I have used Hovlands, still a favourite but not easy to get here.

Also Auricaps (the best metalised capacitors available and not out of everyones reach) which I think are by and large are one of the greatest cap on the market without going completely silly.

More recently the film and foil Clarity SA Caps. Best quality caps if you are not willing to spend serious money.

Most recently the CC Solen fast caps. See my comments above and reviews on the www. Still working on this version, will bypass next.

thanks for the posts..I've been wanting to CC the PS and I'm very interested in the caps ( as you know)

thanks for a great thread:bouncy:

More later

Ian Mackenzie
09-12-2006, 08:43 PM
I had another audition of the CC Soles this evening.

I think bypassing will be necessary.

Regards bypassing, the 9800 used bypassed / charge-coupling.

Ian

JBLnsince1959
09-13-2006, 04:27 AM
Thanks BIG TIME Ian:applaud: :bouncy: ....wonderful.....:D

I'll wait for your complete writing, then I may have some more questions..

Thanks

Ian Mackenzie
09-13-2006, 06:23 AM
I ran out of solder or can't find, it might have fallen down inside the 4345's:dont-know si this may have to wait until the weekend.;) An example of bypass CC.

Ian Mackenzie
09-13-2006, 11:16 PM
I will pull out the network out on the weekend and everyone can tell me (incl the JBL Nazi's) what I am doing wrong!

Ian

Hoerninger
09-16-2006, 02:30 AM
Close up: an amazing piece of hardware.

Du Schelm!

May be: "Honi (http://pda.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=/hCiE.&search=Honi) soit (http://pda.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=/hCiE.&search=soit) qui (http://pda.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=/hCiE.&search=qui) mal (http://pda.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=/hCiE.&search=mal) y (http://pda.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=/hCiE.&search=y) pense" (http://pda.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=/hCiE.&search=pense). (I can't translate it from german.)
More infos are here:
http://www.passlabs.com/downloads/x.5-lit.pdf#search=%22pass%20x%22
____________
Peter

Ian Mackenzie
09-16-2006, 04:35 AM
Du Schelm!

May be: "Honi (http://pda.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=/hCiE.&search=Honi) soit (http://pda.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=/hCiE.&search=soit) qui (http://pda.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=/hCiE.&search=qui) mal (http://pda.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=/hCiE.&search=mal) y (http://pda.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=/hCiE.&search=y) pense" (http://pda.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=/hCiE.&search=pense). (I can't translate it from german.)
More infos are here:
http://www.passlabs.com/downloads/x.5-lit.pdf#search=%22pass%20x%22
____________
Peter

motto of the Order of the Garter

Apparently,

Yes its all very interesting, raise the bar and watch out for the bar.

I have arranged a work around but I will have to invest in a superior multifunction player.

Well the charge-coupled network is working. I think it has taken some time for the capacitors to alter their stasis. All my comments earlier still apply: You will have to fiddle with the system and adjust levels and the like and this frankly is an absolute PITA. If I sound dubious I never had this issue with the Hovlands or the Auricaps or the Clarity SA caps, you just build the f$%^&*# thing, set the L Pads per my instructions and it goes like a beauty. If you have to fiddle with something because it sounds wrong it generally means there is something not right. Got it! Its a bit like using a crappy Eq (because you did not want to spend the bucks) that degrades the sound. You keep adjusting the F%^&*$% EQ in the hope it will improve things. I really don't have time for this cap.

If of course you have been wedded to Mylar capacitors for many years (i.e many JBL systems use mylar capacitors or mylar bypassed with something else) this will be a step up for you and perhaps this is how Charge-Coupling came about, its the next logical step. Note charge-coupling is only available in JBL systems you can't afford. But don't worry as its unlikey you will be abe to audition a charge-coupled JBL in the United States.

So the Mr JBL downsell to the Clarity SA caps and every other premium capacitor on the market will be an interesting journey. You have been warned, choose your route carefully to avoid being peeled of that 8 lane freeway to audio oblivion. What do they say? Always keep in the middle lane and you'll make it! If you don't think a capacitor should or will not sound different do us all a favour and throw out your Tads and JBL's and buy a Bose. You''ll be glad because I hate skeptics, they are time wasters!

Here's the low down. I have discussed capacitor biasing with both Auricaps technical director and Jeff at Sonicraft, both regarded as industry experts in this field and they shake their heads. Its just not necessary with a quality crossover capacitor. What other benefits do quality capacitors offer? Buy them and find out or look at what other people say. You might be pleasantly surprised. My suggestion is consider your budget and spend as much as you can afford. If you can't afford what you want now, save up rather than compromise. Build it properly, take care with terminations and avoid crappy switches. Its a one off thing so why screw around. Just do it ,like the Nike advert says.

Are quality capacitors expensive? No, apparently not. A 1uf Clarity SA Capacitor cost you just US $2.34 each from the link below :I have not done any extensive evaluations of these CC'd so please don't ask. Try it if you like but I think you will have a smile on your face with them used normally. Linear improvement is what matters and I think the Clarity caps are postioned to match contemporary A/V equipment that most folks have in their homes. They were designed for just that reason (a catch phrase around JBL..apparently) .... from industry feedback.
http://www.ledeaudio.com/capacitors.html#CROSSOVER%20CAPACITORS:

Other peoples impressions/ tests/reviews:I have no affiliation with any of these people.

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.htmlSo (http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.htmlSo)
und: The Solen Châteauroux Fast cap is a good step–up from MKT capacitors often found in http://www.audience-av.com/auricap_reviews_and_testimonials.htm'

http://www.10audio.com/sonicap_oimp_multicap.htm

http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/auricap_e.html

Sound: The Solen Châteauroux Fast cap is a good step–up from MKT capacitors often found in standard quality factory built speakers. Like the standard Intertechnik Audyn Cap nothing wrong with them but also nothing exciting, but if I had to choose between the two I would still go for the Solen, they seem to have a fraction more “musicality” to them. Compared with electrolytics they have much more detail, smoothness and a wider stereo image. Compared to a Mundorf Supreme Cap they sound closed-in. Midrange is slightly forward compared to more neutral caps, they can be a little “nasal” sounding in some configurations. Due to this “character” they would make a good match with Focal tweeters for example. If you have a tight budget then this is a good choise!

Verdict: 6,5


At this point I propose to switch to the other crossover; the new equivalent 3145 using the Clarity SA caps and see how that goes. They are ranked a Verdict 9.5 in the first link just to prove I am not leading you up the garden path.

I plan to send either of these crossovers over to Clark to evaluate so at least someone else can cast their impressions.

Ian

MJC
09-16-2006, 07:04 AM
If of course you have been wedded to Mylar capacitors for many yers (i.e many JBL systems use mylar capacitors or mylar bypassed with something else) this will be a step up for you and perhaps this is how charge-coupling came about, its the next logical step.

Yes, compared to the JBL stock crossovers, the CC is a much better crossover.
In comparing the prices of the size caps I used, I saw that the Sonicraft are about 4x the price of the Solens. And the Auricaps about 4x that of Sonicraft. But the Clarity SA caps are only about 2x the Solens.

In the review of the Sonicraft caps the reviewer had this to say of bypass crossovers. " But there is one small problem: the bypasses all sound bad!"

Interesting, I found that when I had bypass crossovers in my main L/R they produced a more dynamic sound, and I don't remember any fatigue setting in. But I still think that the current CC sound better than the bypass, in my L212 system.
But as time and money permit, I might build a pair of crossovers using either the Sonicraft or Clarity SA caps.
I'm also thinking of building upgraded crossovers for the Studio L 890s.

Ian Mackenzie
09-16-2006, 07:34 AM
John,

Thanks for your interest.

My I ask where abouts in Nevada are you?

I drove into Nevada when I was over there around Lake Tahoe and also flew down to the the GC and then to Denver and Boulder City. Must see more of this great place.

http://www.tahoe.com/section/MAPS

Ian

MJC
09-16-2006, 07:46 AM
John,

Thanks for your interest.

My I ask where abouts in Nevada are you?

I drove into Nevada when I was over there around Lake Tahoe and also flew down to the the GC and then to Denver and Boulder City. Must see more of this great place.
.

http://www.tahoe.com/section/MAPS

Ian
I'm just over the hill from Tahoe, in Carson Valley, between Kingbury Grade(stateline, south shore) and Spooner(US hiwy 50), which goes to Carson City.
Yes, Tahoe has got to be one of the most beautiful places on earth.
I just looked at that map, it doesn't show Kingbury Grade, which goes from Stateline(where the casinos are) to Minden(Carson Valley).
Over the last 20 years, I've worked on a few multi-million dollar homes along Tahoe's shoreline. Beats working in NYC or LA, or some such place.

Ian Mackenzie
09-16-2006, 07:59 AM
That road around the lake is really something.

I must have a look at my road Atlas and check out Carson Valley.

I know people in Auburn, Foresthill and Reno.

Perhaps next time

regards


Ian

Major Petty
09-16-2006, 08:10 AM
You will have to fiddle with the system and adjust levels and the like and this frankly is an absolute PITA. If I sound dubious I never had this issue with the Hovlands or the Auricaps or the Clarity SA caps, you just build the f$%^&*# thing, set the L Pads per my instructions and it goes like a beauty. If you have to fiddle with something because it sounds wrong it generally means there is something not right.Given that these issues seem unique to you I would suggest that you stick with the Clarity SA capacitors. They sound nice. I'm not real sure why you are having so many problems with your cloned 4345's.

I've talked to Jeff on several occasions over the years and he knows his capacitors. On one occasion years ago he suggested that the physical characteristics of the 9V battery itself were detrimental to the performance of the filter. Perhaps someone needs to look at building a better battery for audio applications.

It appears that it might be prudent to build networks so that you guys can switch various capacitors - biased, unbiased or bypassed - out as required/desired based on various environmental factors unique to your individual applications. It sounds like you have your work cut out for you.


I plan to send either of these crossovers over to Clark to evaluate so at least someone else can cast their impressions.Probably a good idea. It sounds like you guys need to have your own Lansing Heritage "capacitor shootout". It's a shame that you've alienated both Mr. Widget and Bo after your visit with them, they could probably have assisted you in your evaluations. In addition to Clark, perhaps Chas, Rick and a few others who have built 4345 clones can assist. This could be interesting provided you guys have the time and funding required to stay the course.

MJC
09-16-2006, 08:51 AM
That road around the lake is really something.
Ian
If you want a real view, you walk at least part of the Tahoe Rim Tail, @ 7100~8000 ft, the lake level is about 6228.

Ian Mackenzie
09-16-2006, 04:05 PM
More personal(ly) attacks.

Other members have reported odd results previously with CC, this is not a unique situation. Its all relative and its a case of fine tuning your system. We are all entitled to like or disslike as we please, that is common sense even Greg Timbers has made that clear. The better your system the more critical the tuning becomes. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

I have as a matter of practical experience and public record I have used Hovlands, Mylar, Mylar bypassed, Mylar bypassed and Charge-Coupled, Auricaps, Clarity SA Capacitors and Solen 400V metalised fastcaps. I know what works in my system and what I prefer. If I had my time again I would look at the Hovlands or go straight to the Mundorf Silver/Gold. Solens charge-coupled is just "one option". I don't see it as a compulsory upgrade or the only avenue.

Putting everyting in perspective, as I mentioned above what is important is that you keep your system balanced and that you make linear improvements across you system. No one component should outclass another by a significant margin otherwise you'll end up hearing more warts and system defects than what is on te disk you are playing. The result is you will be dissatisfied and then make more changes you will become confused.

For example I have recenlty installed a new amp, its more transparent ands I need a better CD/muitfunction player. 180 gram Vinyl however is bliss. Regardless using the new or the old amp I am not getting what I previously had in terms of Fidelity with the other networks and I've messed around and wasted a lot of time but that is life.

This is a forum and a discussion board, not a place to be TOLD you have to do it this way. If that is alienating JBL or anybody too bad.

Will the moderators please deal with this individual permmantly.

Don McRitchie
09-16-2006, 07:40 PM
Cool your jets. If your reaction to speech you don't like is to threaten legal action then I would suggest you leave. You're going to hear lots of speech you don't like since that is the nature of public discourse. Sock puppets are against the rules of this forum and will be dealt with accordingly. However, there is no law that people have to post under their actual name. If so, then we would have to ban almost everyone on this forum.

Quite frankly, I have no use for bullies that look to dominate using abuse of the law as a club to beat others into submission. That goes doubly so in this case where the threats have no basis in actual law. See this:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060110-5947.html

It contains the following quote:

But this bill does not make anonymity illegal, nor does it make everyday annoyance illegal.

If you choose to continue on this course, then I can guarantee action will be taken, but it will be action that you will not appreciate.

BTW, there never was a vote for moderators. This is not a democracy. I asked for volunteers and gave everyone who volunteered the opportunity to act as moderator. By your own personal circumstance, you should realize that I now consider that approach to have been a mistake and I will not be making it again.

Ian Mackenzie
09-16-2006, 09:21 PM
Quote "Sock puppets are against the rules of this forum and will be dealt with accordingly". I hope that is the case.

Don,

I will send you a pm and I am happy to call you at my expense, but will you answer it?

No reply, not even about 10 hours later, that is very disappointing Don and particulary rude.

Your response reminded me of the Bush speech to questions about the US goverment response to the New Orleans disaster.

The issue incidentally was the socket puppetry, the personal attack and the harassment. As for bullies, the pots calling the kettle black all round.

Ian

Thom
09-16-2006, 09:56 PM
I’m seriously curious about this charge coupled thing, but if I’m stepping into someone’s civil war I’ll be glade to tiptoe out. Assuming that we aren’t talking about covers for our telephones, so the transducers don’t vibrate sympathetically with the speakers and ruin the acoustics in the room, or $100.00 a foot power cord (what do you do about the wiring between the pole transformer and the outlet) how does this work? I don’t see how a really really good cap can sound any different than a good cap. A bad cap, a cap with different characteristics one polarity than the other, that’s different but as long as the design is right the specs are right and tight (enough) I don’t see how better is better. The idea behind bypass caps generally has to do with filtering RF because larger caps, usually electrolytics, have inherent induction, but at the frequencies you are dealing with I doubt that .01 is going to make much difference. I’m not an engineer or a know it all. I have many more questions than answers, and nobody’s obligated to answer them, but if someone would try I’d appreciate it. Oh, at the risk of offending someone, without skeptics, nobody would have ever gotten close enough to the edge, for fear of falling off the back of the turtle, and those of us who now know the earth is round might not.

Ian Mackenzie
09-16-2006, 10:19 PM
We Australians don't have civil wars and we are men of our word (but we are not yes men) , even Bush stands by it.


Thom,

Yes its an odd thing. But the practical reality is a perfect capacitor does not exist. If it did we would not be here talking about it.

Its like buying a water tank with pump and valve. The will all hold water, but how quickly can you fill it and how quickly can you empty it This is a poor analogy but a capacitor is a storage device.


Not wanting to discuss snake oil, depending on on how and when a capacitor is used certain applications where a/c signals exist certain techniques can help.

About bypassing, in my practical experience if you are using Mylar capacitors, bypassing with polypropolyne small values will improve transient reponse and even small values of polystyrene capacitors will improve ambience.

However, the above is the proviso that the main capacitors is less than ideal. It is generally accepted that polypropolyne capacitors have better qualities for audio than mylar and they cost more. Also note there are various levels of quality for any type of capacitor.

A "very good designed" polypropolyne capacitor my not require bypassing and in fact if the main capacitor already has these properties it may smear the signal.

Capacitors have all sorts of electrical propeerties..the list is endless. What you hear is more to do with the materials, the winding tension and winding techniques and this is where its a bit of a black art.

Zilch
09-16-2006, 10:28 PM
On one occasion years ago he suggested that the physical characteristics of the 9V battery itself were detrimental to the performance of the filter. Perhaps someone needs to look at building a better battery for audio applications.That seems improbable, doesn't it? The RC time constant through 2.2 meg is WAY long relative to the frequencies of interest....

Ian Mackenzie
09-16-2006, 10:58 PM
The current drain is miniscule.

I am using a new std alkaline 9 volt, I measured it at 9.4 volts in circuit. ( volt batteries are used for low noise current sources in some analgue electronics.)

I have heard batteries used for a DAC PS and I did not like it. Sounded tired and dirty, but a DAC draws a lot of current.

I could hook up another PS but its a practical PITA.

It is what it is.

Ian

Thom
09-16-2006, 11:21 PM
While I can't see that it should make a difference, or that you shoulden't be able to fillter the "noise" out. They do make lithium replacements for 9volt batterys and since mercury batterys are no longer available, this maybe your most stable voltage source. 2 questions. does the 9 volt battery go between the two terminals marked 9v? Does polarity make a difference, oops heres 3 has anybody scoped this setup to see if anything remains biased during operation. Could this all have come up from someone having seen some drawing somewere that someone way back well you get the idea maybe all they had was cheap electrolytics and they were trying to keep them alive while they weren't being used because not having a charge was something they really didn't like. I'm not trying to say that's what this is. I'm not nearly that arrogant but things like that do happen. How much does a house have to cost for their dryer lint to be acceptable to damp a high end speaker system?

Zilch
09-16-2006, 11:41 PM
I use the lithiums so I can bury them inside the cabinets and not worry about them for 10+ years.... :p

Ian Mackenzie
09-17-2006, 04:57 AM
Given the freelance sock puppetry we have on the forums and the fact that certain influences from JBL are particular keen on seeing me disappear I will be taking the precaution of opening a thread over on diyaudio.com speakers about the biasing of the Solens.
I plan to try alternative bias voltages and power sources, it should be fun! This is for the benefit of those who want to know the true facts.

best

Ian

Thom
09-17-2006, 12:18 PM
Im not sure what that was, I hope I wasn't part of it.

Ian Mackenzie
09-18-2006, 01:21 AM
Does anyone know if Solen fast caps are directional?

rek50
09-18-2006, 07:20 AM
I've bounced that concept on a couple of "Cap Alchemists". :blink: It wasn't
aimed at Solen, but caps in general.
What I got from all the "Talk" was to wire all the caps the same, using
+ input as the reference point. It might have been "Jeff" that hinted
"If I split a frog hair enough, it won't matter, 'cause I won't be able to see it..." :coolness:

At any rate Ian, thanks for your "Insight" on the delicate "CC" matter. :D

Ian Mackenzie
09-18-2006, 07:26 AM
I've bounced that concept on a couple of "Cap Alchemists". :blink: It wasn't
aimed at Solen, but caps in general.
What I got from all the "Talk" was to wire all the caps the same, using
+ input as the reference point. It might have been "Jeff" that hinted
"If I split a frog hair enough, it won't matter, 'cause I won't be able to see it..." :coolness:

At any rate Ian, thanks for your "Insight" on the delicate "CC" matter. :D

Thankyou rek50.

I will have a look.

Ian

Robh3606
09-18-2006, 07:50 AM
If the parts are not marked as polarity sensitive during the manufacturing process how do you know if they were all "marked" in the same direction????? Unless they are specifically marked or you know for a fact that when they are marked it is done with all the parts in the same orientation it's a 50/50 you will get it right. Part marking is one of the last operations done after they are tested and graded for tolerance.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
09-18-2006, 08:01 AM
The easy way is the ask Solen.

If you understand how these capacitors are wound there is an in and an out.

Robh3606
09-18-2006, 08:09 AM
The easy way is the ask Solen.

If you understand how these capacitors are wound there is an in and an out.

Yes but most polarized parts have asymetrical cases so when they go through all the automatic machine handling they can be set-up in the proper orientation for test and marking. Parts with symetrical cases can't be handed the same way through the test and sorting process. If you look at the construction it should be the same/similar for both sides of the cap. On both sides you have foil/film layers attached to each lead seperated by the dielectric. Typically they are the same construction on both sides so they are mirror images so there is no "in or out". Any of the Militorized capacitors such as ceramic, mica, glass, paper of film capacitors are manufactured this way.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
09-18-2006, 05:16 PM
Yes exactly, But I have seen application notes for these more exotic parts that specify the red dot goes this way around.

If I can find a diagram I will post it.

Ian

http://reviews.ebay.com/ABCs-of-FILM-Capacitors-for-Tube-Radios-TVs-Amplifiers_W0QQugidZ10000000000043209?ssPageName=B UYGD:CAT:-1:LISTINGS:6
Modern film capacitors are non-polar, so you don't have to worry about polarity when replacing old paper caps with new film capacitors. Although non-polar, old paper capacitors had black bands at one end. The black band indicated which end of the paper capacitor had some metal foil (which acted as a shield). The end with the metal foil was connected to the ground (or lowest voltage). The purpose of the foil shield was to make the paper capacitor last longer.


I write to Solen repards polarity and biasing:


Dear Sir,

1. They are non-polarized, however the triple "S" logo is the in side.

2. They are fast caps and do not benefit from pre-loading, this is only done when using poor quality electrolytic caps.

Regards,
Chris

Solen Inc.
4470 Av. Thibault
St-Hubert, QC J3Y 7T9

Ian Mackenzie
09-20-2006, 12:38 AM
Broken Lead Result of issues

As a practical matter of routine maintenance I discovered a damaged interconnect lead in the system from the pre to the power amp. There was some intermittent hum from the right channel and I traced it to the RCA plug after discovering a buzz when the lead was moved.

The inner conductor of the right channel had fractured due to flexing and broken off the inner pin with wear and tear over time. I figure it finally broke when everything was moved during some renovations recently. The signal was probably induced into the amp via capacitance of the shield. I am surprised it worked at all.

Therefore, I plan to start over on the evaluations shortly.

My inital impressions following repairs to the lead are very good and I feel a bit happier that there is at least some rational explanation behind the earlier issues.

I also have a brand new professional digital co axial cable to ensure the best possible results with the charge-coupled network.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
09-20-2006, 04:02 AM
Capacitor PolarityAll film capacitors are directional in as much as one lead of the capacitor is attached to the innermost foil and the other lead to the outer foil layer. There is a small audible difference to be heard, depending on which direction any film capacitor is oriented in a particular circuit. There is also some disagreement as to the preferred orientation from user to user, and manufacturer to manufacturer. The most logical suggestion is to attach the outer foil lead closest to ground, thereby taking advantage of the inherent shielding of the outermost foil, but this may not necessarily sound best to you. The manufacturer of the Hovland capacitors suggest that the outer foil be at the source side in coupling applications or at the highest potential in power supplies, opposite to what one might expect. The manufacturer of the Wonder Cap/InfiniCaps/DynamiCaps has recommended both orientations depending on the particular vintage. Experiment and see which orientation you prefer. In order to determine which lead is outer, and which is inner foil, we use the following procedure for capacitors that are not marked to identify which is which. First, establish a good signal source. We use a signal generator supplying a 1K sine wave at about 15 volts, but you could use almost any combination of equipment that will output some kind of relatively steady low frequency signal. A CD player with a test CD playing a steady tone into a preamp turned to full output probably would work very well. You will also need a voltmeter with reasonably sensitive AC measuring capability. Attach test leads from the plus and minus output of your signal source to the two leads of your capacitor. Next wrap a wide piece of copper braid, any type of conductive material, even multiple turns of wire, around the body of the capacitor, assuring intimate contact over most of the capacitor surface. Take just the hot lead of your voltmeter and attach it to the braid or wire wrapped several turns around the capacitor (voltmeter ground lead is not attached to anything). Note the reading you get on your voltmeter. Now reverse the connection to the capacitor leads from your signal source and note the new reading. Whichever reading was highest indicates that the plus lead from your signal source was attached to the outer foil lead of your capacitor. You are just inductively measuring the strength of the signal on the outer foil of your capacitor. That's it!

Bias voltaging does have some advantages I'm advised, but I've not personally tried it.

C/- Michael Percy

Robh3606
09-20-2006, 07:58 AM
Thanks Ian

Inside/outside makes sense due to the orientation of the foil layers. In/Out or Input/output is a toss up of personal preference or circuit topology. Seems like there is no absolute right way to install these unless you want to take the time and build a jig to listen for a diffrence based on which foil layer you attach your input signal too. Providing of course they are marked like the Solens.

Rob:)

Rudy Kleimann
09-20-2006, 09:46 AM
I hate to point out the obvious, but:

Audio signals are alternating current.:p

In other words, it flows alternately one way through the circuit (and the voice coils), then the other. This is what vibrates the driver diaphragm/cone back and forth from it's normal resting place in the center of it's travel.:yes:

Regarding capacitors: while it is true that the outermost layer of foil (or metallization on a plastic dielectric substrate) will be a little longer due to it's being rolled around another foil and then the dielectric, the important thing to recognize is tha it is the capacitive interatction between the two plates that makes it work as a capacitor. You force X number of electrons onto or off of one plate by doing the opposite to the other plate. Works the same in either direction. If there were any irregularities to this performance based on one plate being slightly larger than the other, then the sine waves passed through the cap would be distorted on one half of the sine wave cycle compared to the other half. I promise you the difference is so miniscule as to be insignificant.:no: And, you have to remember that any one place along the foil is surrounded on bot side by the other foil- one inside that is slightly small, and one outside that is slightly larger. This condition exists all the way out to the last layer of the roll.

The only reason some electrolytic capacitors are polarized is because the plates are made so that one is designed to only have electrons forced into it, while the other plate is designed to be pulled out of it. If used in reverse polarity, a polarized cap will probably fail very quickly.

You can take two polarized electrolytic capacitors of a value twice what the desired value is, connect their positive leads togather, and use the negative leads in an AC circuit and you will have a perfectly reliable non-polarized electrolytic cap. This is exactly how non-polarized electrolytic are made internally, or at least used to be. Kinda sounds like the charge-coupled idea... Reckon that's where the idea first came from?:hmm: Understand that I'm not denying the validity of charge coupling, but that it is probably where the idea to try it came from. Without tying up a bunch of $$$ to test this all out myself, I would tend to think that better caps would be more linear across the voltage scale and particularly at low levels than cheaper caps, and therefore would benefit less and less from charge-coupling to the point where better sound from twice as many twice the size caps would be virtually indistinguishable from the "good" ones sized for the circuit.

Zilch
09-20-2006, 01:21 PM
I hate to point out the obvious, but:

Audio signals are alternating current.:pOh, Rudy, RUDY!

Y' just take ALL the fun outta make-believe here.... :banghead:

[Let's put a 'scope on the biased connection of a charge-coupled crossover and see if it swings through zero.... :thmbsup:]

Thom
09-20-2006, 02:02 PM
When the polorized cap makes a loud bang, the two ends are farther apart then they used to be, and there is confetti all over the inside of the cabinet, is that what you ment by probably fail? Most of that is correct, you may know more about caps than I do, (somebody better) but you can' just put two polarized electrolytics in series back to back and have a non polarized cap of half the value. They would both have to work right both ways for that to work. When I was in school, when if there was a 1 farad cap it would have taken an 18 wheeler to transport it, we made crossovers that way and everybody seemed happy but, I'd be shocked if the values were really right. On nonpolarized caps the only difference between ac an dc caps(whether or not anybody cares) is rating, and its a bunch. For 1 vac you need close to a 2.9v dc cap basically its rms to peak times two plus there's duty cycle because with ac there is heat. I don't know if I'll get to it but I've got a gorgeose scope I bought a few years ago because it was the scope of my dreams and it has never been hooked up to anything since i got it and this "charge coupled " thing really could bring it out of the closet. Unless you're playing with cmos (you're not) 2 meg is a bunch. It could keep a residual charge, presuming no shunt resistance, and I haven't looked today and can't remember yesterday on the caps when you don't use the set up for a few yeays and some people might believe that would make a difference in cap life span but that would mostly be with electrolytics and most of you mostly don't believe in electrolytics. Any way if I find out I'm wrong that would be interesting but if it showes what I think it will then to get on here and expound on it would just be mean spirited. Now that everybodr is safely back to sleep I'll go.

Ian Mackenzie
09-20-2006, 02:19 PM
Polarity The manufacturer normally tells you in their application notes and the capacitor is marked accordingly, often a red dot or in the color of the leads.

The effect of polarity is in reference to the applicaton, generally the shield is best the source being the lower impediance or ground in a DC application . The intent is to minimise noise within the capacitor. One ot these capacitors are two capacitors in one, end to end, others have unorthodox winding techniques which means the polarity may have some significance.

It is best to follow the manufacturers recommendations. Where they publish no such data you have to work it out for yourself.

Ian Mackenzie
09-20-2006, 02:33 PM
I hate to point out the obvious, but:

Understand that I'm not denying the validity of charge coupling, but that it is probably where the idea to try it came from. Without tying up a bunch of $$$ to test this all out myself, I would tend to think that better caps would be more linear across the voltage scale and particularly at low levels than cheaper caps, and therefore would benefit less and less from charge-coupling to the point where better sound from twice as many twice the size caps would be virtually indistinguishable from the "good" ones sized for the circuit.

From a technical perspective that is a reasonable statement.

This is one of the reasons why I am interested to closely evaluating the results. Why do it or why do JBL do it and why do they choose Solen capacitors and charge - coupling them when there are scores of other capacitors available? Will it satisfy everyones expectations, does it perform better than all other capacitors?

It it raise some questions. I am not jumping to any conclusions nor am I accepting any assumptions.

If an actual JBL employee is reading this post and able to offer a factual explanation I think it would prove valuable coming "straight from the horses mouth".

Thom
09-20-2006, 02:43 PM
If you apply the full rated voltage to one and things go off with a bang there is a good chance that you had the polarity wrong, or the cap was defective so it doesn't matter. Or, how about this, if it isn't marked and you hook it up one way and it sounds better than the other way that's the right way, or even better you can have a mod named after you that involves hooking a particular cap up backwards and it sounds better and hell why stop with a mod lets start a religion. anyway get it, if you can't hear it it doesn't matter. I wonder, if some people made some crossovers with ab switches for certain components, what people would really spend on caps? If you cant figure out how to add a few switches, how can you build a crossover? I wonder, are there schools of thought regarding silver vs gold flashed vs mercury whetted. Does anyone still use germainium? Didn't harmon hang on to that for a long time? About the long sentences if it was good enough for Faulkner. I can think of more boaring things I've done than taking a selection of caps and seeing how much over their rated voltage they would take and if they were good for more volts one direction than the other and, towards the end of the afternoon you could take the paper that you had written all of the data on, and by balling it up and placing it under some briquetts make some use of it. You'll find that there are great differences in caps. Some are quite boaring, but some can be quite exitting.

Ian Mackenzie
09-21-2006, 01:01 PM
My proposal at this stage is to make the Solen Charge-Coupled (Biased) 3145 equivalent network and configure it for insertion the 4344-4345 as either an external or internal network with universal terminations so it can be evaluated by other members using these systems.

The intent is the network will first go to Ed (Porchedpm) in Northern California and can then be passed around to other interested members using the above systems. Accompanying the Solen Biased network will be another network using high quality capacitors for comparions.

Packaged with the crossovers will be a Class A discrete active crossover set up exclusively for the 4344/ 4345.

I will complete my own evaluations over the weekend. The review will unbiased (as opposed to biased views of those marketing and selling such networks) and involve a 3rd party who is familiar with my system who's comments will also be posted.

Jarrods, a local who built 4344 clones will also be contacted but I have not seen him on the forums for sometime.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
09-21-2006, 02:27 PM
I have already had some interest in the crossover forum relay.

If possible I might try and make the capacitors interchangable within the one network using eyelet terminals. That way we could have the biased capacitors and other capacitors on the one board. Perhaps there could be 3 options, biased/unbiased Solens, Clarity caps and perhaps Auricaps or Hovlands.

The Lpads could be on a seperate plug in module for those wishing bypass the existing network or use the comparison board externally.


Ian

JBLnsince1959
09-21-2006, 02:29 PM
Thanks for the update Ian, we'll be waiting.

Personally some of the questions I have are this:
1. How does the CC solens compare in sound to a regular setup with solens OR another way of saying this..what difference does the CC make in sound on the highs, mids and bass or what difference in general?

2. What are the high quality capacitors you will compare with?

also, and this may a little off topic..of the high end caps you have listened to so far which ones do you like best OR another way of saying this how would you compare the sound of each to the others. sounds like the Hovlands are your favorite, followed by the Auricaps, but I'll like to make sure. BTW are the Hovlands you use the same as Humble Homemade tested in his reviews. Finally what is your impression of the sound of the Clarity SA Caps. are they as good as he reported...

of course the BIG question ( and I don't think anyone would foot the bill to find out), does CC only improve only low-grade caps or can it provide a big improvement to high grade caps. What Rudy wrote makes a lot of sense, but is it correct?

JBLnsince1959
09-21-2006, 02:35 PM
we must have been writing at the same time...just read your last post...interesting....:applaud:

Ian Mackenzie
09-21-2006, 02:41 PM
Thanks for the update Ian, we'll be waiting.

Personally some of the questions I have are this:
1. How does the CC solens compare in sound to a regular setup with solens OR another way of saying this..what difference does the CC make in sound on the highs, mids and bass or what difference in general?

2. What are the high quality capacitors you will compare with?

also, and this may a little off topic..of the high end caps you have listened to so far which ones do you like best OR another way of saying this how would you compare the sound of each to the others. sounds like the Hovlands are your favorite, followed by the Auricaps, but I'll like to make sure. BTW are the Hovlands you use the same as Humble Homemade tested in his reviews. Finally what is your impression of the sound of the Clarity SA Caps. are they as good as he reported...

of course the BIG question ( and I don't think anyone would foot the bill to find out), does CC only improve only low-grade caps or can it provide a big improvement to high grade caps. What Rudy wrote makes a lot of sense, but is it correct?


You are asking all the right questions.

It would have been nice if JBL had come forward (officially) and said something but they haven't. I am sure they could if they wanted to.

Regardless however, people are entitled to their own preferences and opinions. I prefer to be fairly open about these things. They are only loudspeakers after all.

I am out of time right now and will followup over the weekend.

best

Ian

JBLnsince1959
09-21-2006, 02:56 PM
They are only loudspeakers after all.



:jawdrop: WHAT !!!!

BLASPHEME!!! :rotfl:

yeah, I know what you mean. We'll be waiting for when you have time. Great job by the way......Thanks for the answer earlier..:rockon2:

Robh3606
09-21-2006, 08:28 PM
Hello Ian


It would have been nice if JBL had come forward (officially) and said something but they haven't. I am sure they could if they wanted to.


What would you expect them to say??? It's obvious with the Everest 2 that they are using the Solens CC with no bypass caps from Don's pictures. As to why?? Well I would assume the obvious that they like the way they sound. Plain and simple. Is it really that important?? That's what they are using. If you want to experiment with more expensive caps I would choose a less costly network or just do the compression driver and slot. Doubling up the values and part counts on the midrange and woofers is going to get real expensive with the Hovlands as an example. You could just do the highpass cap for the bandpass on the midrange and keep the shunt as is. If you look at the CC schematics for the L250Ti Jubilee, 4344MK2, and 4348 they don't CC the woofer caps. The effect must not be audible in the woofers range at least down around 3-400Hz where those woofers crossover so I would follow the example and not go through the expense for the 4345. If you look at the 9800/9800SE schematic they do CC the woofer caps but the crossover is at 800Hz. I am using CC Solens on my 2435's and it sounds just fine.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
09-21-2006, 08:29 PM
I will say this, that you will just know when you've got it right as there will be no desire to look for further change.

You will be focussed on the music, nothing else.

Ian

Rudy Kleimann
09-21-2006, 09:35 PM
I will say this, that you will just know when you've got it right as there will be no desire to look for further change.

You will be focussed on the music, nothing else.

Ian

You got that right, Ian!

BTW- I hope it is clear that I too am equally open-minded to the philosophy of upgrading and experimenting with crossover components and wiring techniques. At the same time, I am suggesting that we keep an open mind when it comes to increasing costs, complexity, and component count. More is not automatically better. As you pointed out, our ears will tell us all we need to know, as long as we keep our ego out of the equation. Be prepared to accept that the "new" super-duper parts or circuit topology (charge coupled, bypasses, etc) may be better -or may not be. Could be even worse. Just because a person spent a lot of money or time on it doesn't mean it was worth it. However, once the money is spent and the solder is melted, there is no recouping your costs.

Kudos to you and your efforts. Offering to send your crossovers to trustworthy LHS forumites with the same systems to allow their own evaluation is both generous and ingenious- couldn't do it any better, and we all benefit. Sharing our knowledge, experience, efforts, and expenses incurred in our individual efforts and experimental designs by allowing others to actually try them in their own systems and comparing designs will yield a vast database of knowledge. What a fantastic idea!

Call it the Lansing Heritage Society Research and Development Consortium? Whadaya think?

Thom
09-21-2006, 10:40 PM
2 things:
1 I'm definetly going to waist my sarcasim someware else
2 I'm not arguing with you over the validity of your cap theory, but whether your right or wrong there is something wrong with citing a manufacturer as an authority backing you up
when they do something acorrding to your denomation and saying they must have had some reason when they use eletrolytics. Understand I'm not arguing caps with you, I don't think anybody is going to say electrolytics are the best way to go if cost and space are not a factor. I just don't think you get to pick and choose when something is right on the strength of "they did it." They are an authoraty or they aren't

Ian Mackenzie
09-21-2006, 11:45 PM
Sorry I really dont quite understand what you mean.

Ian Mackenzie
09-22-2006, 03:52 AM
You got that right, Ian!

BTW- I hope it is clear that I too am equally open-minded to the philosophy of upgrading and experimenting with crossover components and wiring techniques. At the same time, I am suggesting that we keep an open mind when it comes to increasing costs, complexity, and component count. More is not automatically better. As you pointed out, our ears will tell us all we need to know, as long as we keep our ego out of the equation. Be prepared to accept that the "new" super-duper parts or circuit topology (charge coupled, bypasses, etc) may be better -or may not be. Could be even worse. Just because a person spent a lot of money or time on it doesn't mean it was worth it. However, once the money is spent and the solder is melted, there is no recouping your costs.

Kudos to you and your efforts. Offering to send your crossovers to trustworthy LHS forumites with the same systems to allow their own evaluation is both generous and ingenious- couldn't do it any better, and we all benefit. Sharing our knowledge, experience, efforts, and expenses incurred in our individual efforts and experimental designs by allowing others to actually try them in their own systems and comparing designs will yield a vast database of knowledge. What a fantastic idea!

Call it the Lansing Heritage Society Research and Development Consortium? Whadaya think?

Well that's right and I think that is why the real people are here.

Its for the enthusiasts!

Just remember the "you got it right factor" will more often than not be about about an informed decision & implemation based on evidence rather than just best practice.

The comments we often interpret about a change being just different as opposed to better really means you made the wrong choice or there are other issues that need to be addressed.

Ian Mackenzie
09-22-2006, 10:27 AM
Okay,

First a few details and about the environment.

My listening room is a about 4 x 5 metres (1 metre is near enough to 39 inches, that's 3 feet plus 3 inches for you dang yankees), furnished with carpet, a large rug, bookcases, a bar ,several reclinear leather arm chairs (just like the blown away poster being framed) and the usual things like windows, a coffee table and various works of contemporary art and a framed poster of of Elle.

A pair of (bloody) large speakers are either side of a solid wood (beech) entertainent unit 1.5 metre W x 45cm H x 60 cm D.

The system is quite simple. There is a T/T (Kenwood concrete job) , a phono MC preamp (Passlabs), a DVD player (Pioneer), a 32 inch LCD TV (a CD belt drive transport (CDC), a DAC/preamplifier (Kenwood Shark processor), a large (really heavy) power amp (Passlabs X250.5). Interconnects are Harmony Gold, digital cable Hosapro with silver centre conductor, speaker cables bi-wired Supra pythons. No equalisers or other gimmicks.

Now the sensible part. I have decided to use the speakers (4345 clones) in full passive mode. Please no tears.:crying: .

There are a couple of reasons for this.:eek: I wanted to have a minimalist system with the least adjustments and the shortest signal path so that there is the least possibility of anything that may impact on the results for the evaluations.

This has been quite a challenge as we normally like to biamp these types of systems. Recent renovations caused much disruption and a few head aches however after a lot of persistence I have managed arrange the system to the point where there is not a lot in it compared to biamping when using the Passlabs X250.5 power amplifier. A simple modification (a 100 ohm resister across the woofers) appears to counter to a reasonable degree the effects of motional impediance that normally effects the 4345 system balance in full passive mode.(Special thanks to Passlabs; to Kent English for this mod and to Nelson Pass for assistance setting up the X250.5)

The new digital cable, a CDC transport and the Passlabs X250.5 combine to produce stellar performance that really is as good as it gets.;)

I will start the trials tomorrow afternoon, its 3.30 am here.:snore:

Ian

JBLnsince1959
09-22-2006, 01:14 PM
(1 metre is near enough to 39 inches, that's 3 feet plus 3 inches for you dang yankees),



Thank God we got that cleared up....I was wondering what you were doing with all those meters in your room..But then I guess you can't have too much equipment...:D ;)

OK, it's count-down to party time!!!

(PS - so how big is your room in feet?:p)

Ian Mackenzie
09-22-2006, 04:27 PM
OK, it's count-down to party time!!! Yes it is!!

(PS - so how big is your room in feet?:p) Well lets see 39 x 5 = 195 / 12 = 16 feet 3 inches, the other dimension more like 13 feet.

"All opinions expressed by JBLnsince1959 are his own and are not influenced by outside forces."

JBLsince1959, The was a good year. I really like your signature.

Well its coffee time down here. At the end of the pier is the best coffee on the planet. Talk to you guys later on.

Ian

Rudy Kleimann
09-22-2006, 04:32 PM
2 things:
1 I'm definetly going to waist my sarcasim someware else
2 I'm not arguing with you over the validity of your cap theory, but whether your right or wrong there is something wrong with citing a manufacturer as an authority backing you up
when they do something acorrding to your denomation and saying they must have had some reason when they use eletrolytics. Understand I'm not arguing caps with you, I don't think anybody is going to say electrolytics are the best way to go if cost and space are not a factor. I just don't think you get to pick and choose when something is right on the
strength of "they did it." They are an authoraty or they aren't

A person can only speak of what they already know, but to listen is to learn. There are many here who know far more than you (that is, unless you're that certain person from a certain place in Ohio:D ). Some LHS forum members are former JBL employees; others have been lifelong friends or colleagues of the top brass at JBL Engineering, as well as other loudspeaker manufacturers. They know a great deal, and have access to decades of research and development information. They have helped countless others build their own systems from scratch or improve factory designs.

Greg Timbers, Senior Engineer and head of Loudspeaker Engineering at JBL for the last 20+ years is one of the LHS Forum members. He is a vast wealth of knowledge, a true audiophile, and he loves his work. For the record, Greg Timbers qualifies as an authority. He doesn't post here often, but when he does, we listen -and learn. You should do a search for posts by him and READ IT. LEARN IT. TAKE IT TO THE BANK. He's not posting here to feed his ego or to crush anybody else's. He comes to share a little now and then. And we are all very grateful for him sharing with us.

JBL makes $100 speaker systems, and $50,000 "Statement" systems that define the state of the art at JBL. Some may still use electrolytics, if for no other reason than to keep the costs down for the target market the particular speaker is competing with in the marketplace. Others use various other types for various reasons. Perhaps performance in that particular driver/crossover circuit topology/capacitor characteristics. Maybe "Value Engineering" dictated a less expensive cap that performed nearly as well. Could be only for marketing hype. Who knows?

Most of us don't work at JBL, so we don't have access to all the components, tools, test equipment, anechoic chambers, R&D data etc. But we are all audio enthusiasts. We all have a set of ears to judge performance by, and some pretty good electronics to feed the signal to our ears. We try things, research and share information, and relay our personal experiences. We do what we can to satisfy ourselves. The musical experience is what it's about, or we wouldn't be doing any of this anyway.

Most of us do know that electrolytic caps are not the thing to use in a high-quality system crossover. But then again, we may own speakers (including JBL's) that have electrolytics in them. Hence the desire to upgrade to improve the sound quality. OTOH, does $500 in caps improve the sound enough to justify their cost over $100 worth of caps? Does the high-performance cap that replaced the old one throw the rest of the crossover/driver outputs out of sonic balance (which, BTW, it sometimes does) and require re-tuning the crossover circuit? You be the judge... Lay your money down and give it the old college try. Let us know how it works out for you. But don't come at us with guns blazin' just because you don't see our point-of-view.

Do your homework before you go on the offensive... become enlightened. And use a little tact- think before you speak. Don't make assumptions. Understand the subject before dismissing the discussion out-of-hand as BS. You'll make more friends, have more fun, and learn a lot along the way.:thmbsup:

Robh3606
09-22-2006, 06:07 PM
Easy guys

Let's keep this civil. I don't want to see this thread turn into a flame war. We all have the right to disagree and under the best of circumstances we should agree to disagree and leave it at that. That last post is walking the line and franky a response back may be over the line depending on how the reader views it. Please remember there is another person on the other side of the conversation.

Thanks Rob:)

Rudy Kleimann
09-22-2006, 07:11 PM
Easy guys

Let's keep this civil. I don't want to see this thread turn into a flame war. We all have the right to disagree and under the best of circumstances we should agree to disagree and leave it at that. That last post is walking the line and franky a response back may be over the line depending on how the reader views it. Please remember there is another person on the other side of the conversation.

Thanks Rob:)

And I apologize for overreacting. The flame wars that already took place here the last few days have put me on edge. Not to mention the many previous "flare-ups" of months past that have spoiled my ability to simply read many other threads here at the forum. By the time I read an email notification of a new post and came here to read it, I would find myself in the middle of a pathetic battle of egos. Some of which were way out-of line, rude, and maliciously offensive. And for what? The offensive posts were deleted, but the remaining posts clearly indicated that something ugly had occurred and only served to clutter and confuse the thread itself. Forum members were offended, others were banned, and a chill would descend upon a once enjoyable, interesting and educational thread. This was way off the mark -not at all why I come to this Forum. It's like "Oh, hell, here we go again".The way grown men can behave is sometimes appalling.

My intent was to stop another flame war before it started with a tactful, direct, and factual approach with food for thought. It was not an attack. I don't intend to lower myself to the same level...:o:

I'd like to think that none of this aggression or ingratiating behavior would exist if we were all together in person. The internet should be no different, right? We are all friends!

Again, I apologize to anyone who may have been offended or whose intent I misread.

Now, back to the good stuff...:bouncy:

Thom
09-22-2006, 10:31 PM
I thought I started that post by saying for this post lets not care about the caps. I'll do you one better for this post lets assume that every thing you think about caps is true. You still don't get to pick someone out as an authority and if he agrees with you it automaticly proves your right, and then when he does something that goes against your religeous belief shrug it off and say well there was some other reason. I'm no expert. I'm just one of those crazys from the sixtys that didn't care if I had a couch or a TV as long as I had sound.I probably never had a good looking system in my life but an amazing amount of people have been blown away. I was in Sacto when ESS went from being a bunch of geeks trying to sell a high end speaker with the KEF race track woofer that they found in a book into who knows what. I bought the building Quintesence was built in. My favorite comic material for years has been british hi fi magazines, Do you have all speakers you're not using out of your listening room. Do you have the transducers of your phone,if it's in your listening room,covered so they don't effect the sound. I wonder if there,s a market for a service gently breaking in capacitors. I haven't taken any personal shots. When I ask a legitamate question like how does the battery hook up,in the crossover, nobody answers. I didn't take it personal when whats his name in berkely basicly called me stupid. Just asked him what made him an authority. Loosen up. People get hostile when their beliefs are challenged when they're on shaky ground. I'm not Einstein or the man I more look up to, Tesla. I'm not a capacitor expert but I basicly know what thay do my electrical theory is pretty good. I believe with electrical signals, as long as they are electrical, we can see differences, if they exist. I think we do things today that are much more critical than audio. I'm absolutly amazed that we can take the sound apart assign it numbers and then put it back together again. It's not magic. I don't Know if you understand how capacitors and inductors seperate high and low frequencys (I'm not assuming that you don't) I've never really checked it out (mainly because I hate working the capacitive formula) to see if we ever run into the situation where capacitive reactance and inductive reactive are the same, that would be interesting. Oh about using electolytics when they have to make a certain cost, do you figure that was whas what it was on the new JBL "statement" speaker that I saw several people post that that would have to go, and you haven't even heard it yet. Religeon is fine, it doesn't always mix with science well. Am I saying that absolutly you can not hear a difference? I havn't tried legitamate ab testing so that would be a foolish statement, but if were talking from one "good" cap to another "good" cap I'd sure be surprized. I have not heard any one talk about putting together test crossovers with switches that someone else will operate. Also it's highly likely that someone has taken the crossover out of a 20 or 30 year old speaker, replaced the caps with new better ones and they sounded better. I'm not attacking anyone. If putting a crystal on top of your microwave oven makes you more comfortable do it. I's ok if I sniker a little isn't it.
Don't get mean and don't get personal. I'm sure we all know words that would get us kicked off of here. If you're seriously offended, talk to me about the part that really pissed you off. I'm not mad ,I really don't want anybody else mad. I ment to poke people a little but I diddnt mean to draw any blood.

Ian Mackenzie
09-22-2006, 10:46 PM
Hi Thom,

I don't thing anyone has a problem with you posting.

But please structure your discussion and statements into sentences and paragraphs so we can more easily grasp what you are saying okay mate.

macka

Thom
09-22-2006, 11:18 PM
I still don't know where the battery goes on your cc xover. On the print you show 9v in 2 places. Are they the battery? What's neg and what's pos? Can't experiment if I don't know how it goes.

Thank you

Ian Mackenzie
09-22-2006, 11:30 PM
Alright,

What do they say, never make a speech in an empty stomach.

Firstly I want to talk about the program and how I am going to go about it.

This is not going to be a two minute or even an afternoon appraisal. It will probably take a week (and maybe more for logisical reasons).

One of the peculiarities of doing this sort of thing is its very easy to pass off an assumption unless you cover the subject fully. This applies as much to a recording as anything else..and of course the design characteristics of the loudspeaker in question.The same applies to listening. Quick A/b comparisons show up significant change, longer term listening shows up more subtle qualities and then there is refinement of the impressions. But initial impressions are important all the same particularly if you have a learned ear to a system and are familiar with the equipment. A trained ear is as always a useful skill. Not so much a narrow focus on spot frequencies and balance but having some degree of capacity to determine if something sounds like it should.

I have spent some time gaining impressions this afternoon and I will again later on. The plan is to trial the Clarity caps for a while tomorrow. Before I do this I will modify the filter boards with terminal blocks to enable more or less a plug and play of the capacitors. So there is some work to be done.

I then plan to go back and forth a few times during the week to get a more specific understanding of the qualities of the Solen Charge-Coupled capacitors and the SA Clarity caps. Pending the state of play during the week I will make a call on whether to order a selection of well known capacitors like the Hovlands but we can cross that bridge when we get to it.

During the week we can talk out what is happening, debate some observations and chew the fat. The offer to send over the boards is real and I see that as "Given" because I you need to try if for yourself and make your own mind up as often as not what is right for you can be a matter of taste an blending to you that "right sound."

So that to I reackon. Crickey that's a bit of an ask mate!

Eeny meeny miny, moe!

Solen Charge-Coupled network

My initial impressions are of a very clean presentation, high frequency transients are well defined and tonality across the board is even but overall perhaps tad cool and clinical.

Linear would be a good way to describe it.

Does it sound for real, is all the information there and can I live with it?

Well that is yet to be worked out.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
09-22-2006, 11:40 PM
I still don't know where the battery goes on your cc xover. On the print you show 9v in 2 places. Are they the battery? What's neg and what's pos? Can't experiment if I don't know how it goes.

Thank you
http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=32732&postcount=6

Ian Mackenzie
09-23-2006, 12:01 AM
I thought I started that post by saying for this post lets not care about the caps. I'll do you one better for this post lets assume that every thing you think about caps is true.

You still don't get to pick someone out as an authority and if he agrees with you it automaticly proves your right, and then when he does something that goes against your religeous belief shrug it off and say well there was some other reason. That's not what this is about.

I'm no expert. Apparently, but we are all here to share information.

I was in Sacto when ESS went from being a bunch of geeks trying to sell a high end speaker with the KEF race track woofer that they found in a book into who knows what. Really, well I have met a guy who worked at EES once too, his name is Nelson Pass so we have something in common. I spoke to Nelson this morning actually.

I bought the building Quintesence was built in. My favorite comic material for years has been british hi fi magazines. They seldom discuss American loudspeakers, specifically JBL's

Do you have all speakers you're not using out of your listening room. YES.

I wonder if there,s a market for a service gently breaking in capacitors. No but there are techiques, do a web search. Try an FM radio off station for about a week.

When I ask a legitamate question like how does the battery hook up,in the crossover, nobody answers. See above, I am not good at filtering noise.

People get hostile when their beliefs are challenged. Some more than others, the worst of them are banned or we'd like to think so. This is just a meeting place, not a temple of religion although some would believe it to be.

I'm not a capacitor expert but I basically know what thay do my electrical theory is pretty good. I believe with electrical signals, as long as they are electrical, we can see differences, if they exist. I think we do things today that are much more critical than audio. Yawn

I'm absolutely amazed that we can take the sound apart assign it numbers and then put it back together again. It's not magic. I don't Know if you understand how capacitors and inductors seperate high and low frequencys (I'm not assuming that you don't) I've never really checked it out (mainly because I hate working the capacitive formula) to see if we ever run into the situation where capacitive reactance and inductive reactive are the same, that would be interesting. If you use the right formulae it can't happen.

Oh about using electolytics when they have to make a certain cost, do you figure that was whas what it was on the new JBL "statement" speaker that I saw several people post that that would have to go, and you haven't even heard it yet. Unknown

Religeon is fine, it doesn't always mix with science well. Am I saying that absolutly you can not hear a difference? I havn't tried legitamate ab testing so that would be a foolish statement, but if were talking from one "good" cap to another "good" cap I'd sure be surprized. Yawn

I have not heard any one talk about putting together test crossovers with switches that someone else will operate. You can buy them off the shelf. Look in Audio Express.

Also it's highly likely that someone has taken the crossover out of a 20 or 30 year old speaker, replaced the caps with new better ones and they sounded better. Possibly.

I'm not attacking anyone. If putting a crystal on top of your microwave oven makes you more comfortable do it. I's ok if I sniker a little isn't it. That is not why we are here.

.

Zilch
09-23-2006, 12:38 AM
I didn't take it personal when whats his name in berkely basicly called me stupid. Just asked him what made him an authority.I said L200s were "stupid loud."

You took it VERY personal, apparently:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=125274#post125274

Ian Mackenzie
09-23-2006, 07:56 AM
I've quoted my last audition post to keep continuity:


Alright,

What do they say, never make a speech in an empty stomach.

Firstly I want to talk about the program and how I am going to go about it.

This is not going to be a two minute or even an afternoon appraisal. It will probably take a week (and maybe more for logisical reasons).

One of the peculiarities of doing this sort of thing is its very easy to pass off an assumption unless you cover the subject fully. This applies as much to a recording as anything else..and of course the design characteristics of the loudspeaker in question.The same applies to listening. Quick A/b comparisons show up significant change, longer term listening shows up more subtle qualities and then there is refinement of the impressions. But initial impressions are important all the same particularly if you have a learned ear to a system and are familiar with the equipment. A trained ear is as always a useful skill. Not so much a narrow focus on spot frequencies and balance but having some degree of capacity to determine if something sounds like it should.

I have spent some time gaining impressions this afternoon and I will again later on. The plan is to trial the Clarity caps for a while tomorrow. Before I do this I will modify the filter boards with terminal blocks to enable more or less a plug and play of the capacitors. So there is some work to be done.

I then plan to go back and forth a few times during the week to get a more specific understanding of the qualities of the Solen Charge-Coupled capacitors and the SA Clarity caps. Pending the state of play during the week I will make a call on whether to order a selection of well known capacitors like the Hovlands but we can cross that bridge when we get to it.

During the week we can talk out what is happening, debate some observations and chew the fat. The offer to send over the boards is real and I see that as "Given" because I you need to try if for yourself and make your own mind up as often as not what is right for you can be a matter of taste an blending to you that "right sound."

So that to I reackon. Crickey that's a bit of an ask mate!

Eeny meeny miny, moe!

Solen Charge-Coupled network

Squeeky Clean

1. My initial impressions are of a very clean presentation, high frequency transients are well defined and tonality across the board is even but overall perhaps tad cool and clinical.

Linear would be a good way to describe it.

Does it sound for real, is all the information there and can I live with it?

Well that is yet to be worked out.

2. Second round of evaluations.

Cuts the grass but can it mowe the lawn

This is quite interesting. I have played a variety of CD's Jazz, Pop and so on. My impression is the Solens Charge-Coupled responded well to percussive/string instruments and electronics effects instruments like some of the Larry Carlton stuff I played earlier tonight. The detail and depth of the strings is well revealed with a seemingly polished presence.

Brass is perhaps less well presented and I felt continous notes in complex sections like James Morrison Live in Paris (I asked for the Blues) were less real sounding and at times flat sounding than when played with the Hovlands.Another favourite, Miles Davis Blue in Green sounded flat.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
09-23-2006, 08:24 AM
3. Third Round evaluations Clarity SA Capacitors (no-biased)

I have just changed one channel.

Initial impressions, a massive contrast in tonality and balance.

I will check everything before further comments:

ain

JBLnsince1959
09-23-2006, 09:27 AM
Ian:

did you listen to the solens unCC'ed?

Where the CC solens By-passed or just "as is". If not by-passed would that be possible? ( GT has by-passed them beforeI believe)

also, the Hovlands you've used, are they the same ones reviewed by Humble?

also, how about rating the caps like Humble does and comparing ( when it's over if you can)

thanks for the reviews so far.

Thom
09-23-2006, 12:05 PM
Zilch,

I don't think I took it personal. I responded to it as though it was personal but with no anger. I just asked your credentials and expressed my dismay at not having known I was stupid when I was young enough for the information to have done me some good. You weren't taking any bait that day and and it was pretty obvious that it wasn't a personal attack. When I wasn't sure I didn't respond in anger. I'm, almost for sure, beating an issue to death. I'm told, by everyone, that I do that.

Thom
09-23-2006, 12:47 PM
Of course I know of nellson I don't know him. I thought he was generally associated with Threshold and with playing with gas ionization speakers. In about 73 I new some people real well at a place called music machine and thet seemed to know what was going on at ESS before ESS did. Then some people left there made a perfectly horrible speaker, called themselvs "Sound Technology Research" I was already repping some other audio products so I agreed to take it on the road. Took me into an awful lot of audio stores. David Wayne Dwelly. Showed me through his assy line at DWD, have no idea if they were heavy enough to sink to the bottom of the world where you would see them or not, just a store brand anyway. All of this means nothing. I find this sight interesting. It's good to know who people are so you know what to make of what thay say when you cant verify it . Ian, you kept bitching about my composition,it took you till now to realize I can't spell? At one time all of the magic voodoo and witchcraft belonged to the "I hate JBL" side. Back then that was the only way they could compete. I've got a pair of KLH 1's here. Man what a big sound for such small speakers but dont try to play them loud in any thing larger than a closet. I wrote some letters to some mfgs' for a friend who was opening a high end store back in 73 and I couldn't believe the stuff that I had never heard of but every one that would buy it would be afraid to even whisper JBL it would have been sacrolage. Well today a lot of people build drivers that look as good as JBL I don't know if they are or not and........ ....... I really don't think this interests you but next time you are going to complain about how many members you have and how few post DON'T! YOU ARE RIGHT IAN, I AM WRONG. THERE ARE NO ELECTRONS. PLEASE ACCEPT MY APPOLOGIE !

JBLnsince1959
09-23-2006, 01:22 PM
This is quite interesting. I have played a variety of CD's Jazz, Pop and so on. My impression is the Solens Charge-Coupled responded well to percussive/string instruments and electronics effects instruments like some of the Larry Carlton stuff I played earlier tonight. The detail and depth of the strings is well revealed with a seemingly polished presence.

Brass is perhaps less well presented and I felt continous notes in complex sections like James Morrison Live in Paris (I asked for the Blues) were less real sounding and at times flat sounding than when played with the Hovlands.Another favourite, Miles Davis Blue in Green sounded flat.



What I think we need to know at this point is are you hearing the intrinsic nature of the Solens or is it the intrinsic nature of the CC ( or both)

for example it maybe the basic nature of the Solens that sounds flat and less real sounding and not the CC itself. the CC might just be smoothing out and cleaning up what is already there ( or not there)

yggdrasil
09-23-2006, 02:10 PM
A simple modification (a 100 ohm resister across the woofers) appears to counter to a reasonable degree the effects of motional impediance that normally effects the 4345 system balance in full passive mode.(Special thanks to Passlabs; to Kent English for this mod and to Nelson Pass for assistance setting up the X250.5)
I tried this tonight, and the first impression is that especially the lower mids was improved.

Ian Mackenzie
09-23-2006, 02:55 PM
Ian:

did you listen to the solens unCC'ed?

Where the CC solens By-passed or just "as is". If not by-passed would that be possible? ( GT has by-passed them beforeI believe)

also, the Hovlands you've used, are they the same ones reviewed by Humble?

also, how about rating the caps like Humble does and comparing ( when it's over if you can)

thanks for the reviews so far.

Crikey,

I've only just woken up Mate. No. LoL....Muhahahaha.

Seriously, I want to do that last as it takes soem time for them to fully charge. yes I lan to Bypass them later on another round of evaluations (end of week) I cant be sure BUT, I think JBL may have used Mylar and bypassed in the charge coupled configuration at one point. This is one of the reasons I requested some sort of background from JBL.

On the ratings I that has already been doen if you know what I mean. I want to arrive at the strenghts and weaknesses of each option relative to this type of system. I think that is more meaningful.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
09-23-2006, 03:01 PM
What I think we need to know at this point is are you hearing the intrinsic nature of the Solens or is it the intrinsic nature of the CC ( or both)

for example it maybe the basic nature of the Solens that sounds flat and less real sounding and not the CC itself. the CC might just be smoothing out and cleaning up what is already there ( or not there)

What you say is exactly right .

I dont have enough evidence yet , its just a finding and I don't want to jump to conclusions. I think we should be able to determine this with some clarity within the next two rounds of evaluations. I mean if the Clarity caps do something obviously different we can then focus on non biased and bypassing of the Solens.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
09-23-2006, 03:03 PM
Thom,

Sorry it I am very busy today and I don't have time to respond to you block post.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
09-24-2006, 06:16 AM
Evaluation Round 3 Clarity SA Capacitors.


This evaluation was also quite interesting and full of surprises.

I played the same CD's Jazz, Pop and so on. My impression is the Clarity SA capacitors responded well to natural brass and string instruments like the Miles Davis and James Morrison tunes mentioned previously. There is a natural presentation of timbre and tone with fine details rendered with a smooth elegant quality.

Instrumental definition and clarity was never confused even in the most complex passages. The Eva Cassidy vocals on Live at Blues Alley were almost perfect.

The presentation was likened to the Hovlands in tone rendering while rock was more laid back but the details where always well integrated.

Ian

JBLnsince1959
09-24-2006, 06:29 AM
Thanks for the update and info. I'll just sit back and read what you say....sounds like a good plan..

Ian Mackenzie
09-25-2006, 04:50 AM
EVALUATION OF SOLEN CHARGE-COUPLED CAPACITORS AND CLARITY SA CAPACITORS


Summary of Evaluations:

Well as you can see from my notes both capacitors and the manner of topology offer different styles of presentation and tonality. I don't think there is any need to beat around the bush. The differences are not subtle. There is little need for further elaboration but I am happy to do more auditions on request, time permitting. I am also happy to try other capacitors if you send me samples. They will be returned run in.

You may ask which is right or best?

Its a matter of taste and your environment and obviously your loudspeakers.

Neither is perfect but offer choices.

My humble impressions in summary are:

I likened the Solen capacitors Charge-Coupled to the Auricaps in terms of the live character but they lack the finesse, sheer accuracy, tonality and balance of the Auricaps.

The Clarity capacitors (non biased) were likened to the Hovlands in terms of purity and tonality but again they lacked the finesse and ultimate resolving power of the Hovlands.

Conclusion:

The choice will depend on your speakers and amps and even your room. If you have a bright amp and use untreated titanium drivers in a live room look in the direction of the Clarity Caps. If you have a mellow amp and an all cone system or treated titanium drivers in a dead room the Solens Charge-Coupled may appeal more.

Incidentally my compression drivers have titanium diaphragms with an aqualpas coating and my amp is if anything a tiny bit warm but very smooth and transparent.

What is my choice? Well I am going to have another good listen to both but I sincerely doubt either will deliver the embedded desires of the Hovlands and Auricaps both of which I have used for an extended period with the current loudspeakers (JBL 4345).

Should I upgrade? Only you can make that choice.

You next question might be should I spend the extra money on the Auricaps or Hovlands?

Well if you can afford them then your system would be deserving because you could afford (have) a top notch system with top notch amps and everything that goes with it.

Ian

The fine print:

I am not affiliated with any of the suppliers of the capacitors or were they offered as free samples. I paid for everything out of my own pocket. I have not been paid to conduct these evaluations or influenced in any way by any individuals or organisations.

The evaluations were conducted without preference or prejudice and an open mind.

The above evaluations in no way imply or infer any opinion or reference to any JBL product currently in manufacture.

The contents of this report will not be copied, published or plagiarised (or misquoted) without the expressed permission of the author.

Copyright. Original work of Ian Mackenzie 2006

JBLnsince1959
09-25-2006, 07:02 AM
The Eva Cassidy vocals on Live at Blues Alley were almost perfect.

Ian

Excellent choice for female vocals...one of my top favorite CD's:applaud:

It's a shame we lost her so young.

Ian Mackenzie
09-25-2006, 02:49 PM
The James Morrison CD Live in Paris 4509-99260-2 is also very nice if you really want to hear what your system is capable of. Track 8, "I asked for a Blues" is stunning. The trumpet is one of the most, if not the most difficult instrument to record and reproduce. You can hear it on this disk at its best.

I grew up in my youth with music at home, my brother played the trumpet during High School and he would practise every morning at home. Mark was taught under Ken Smith, world regarded at the time as the best classical trumpet player in the world. Mr Smith did a command performance for the Queen (UK) as I undertand it. Mark's fellow student and close friend Robert McWilliams played the Cornet. Mark's career has been in broadcast television (engineering), I wonder what might have been if he stayed with the trumpet. I met Robert by chance at Bennetts Lane last year..a jazz venue and he mentioned he was currently guest conductor for the Singapore Symphony Orchestra. He stole the show that night with a beautiful solo on the Cornet.

Ian

mtrump
09-26-2006, 06:37 AM
What a fascinating thread!!!!

I read this as part of a search for info to upgrade my 250TI limited editions to a Jubilee “Charge-Coupled Linear Definition Dividing Network”.

I learned a lot (from this thread and others) THANK YOU, Ian, Giskard, JBLnut, and others!

Some things I take as facts

Despite my desire to think otherwise my JBLs, CD play, preamp and amps are a musical instrument, not a scientific device. Each part of the system plays a role in this “Art” to make recordings sound good to my ear.

Marketing compromises, component aging, marketing hype and the personal tastes of the artists/technicians/skilled craftsmen/engineers that created them have all played a role in the sound of my various JBL manufactured instruments.

Some of you have gone to great lengths to change these factors in your instruments to make them sound good to your ear.

My ear, given a few days, will “burn in” and I will perceive the change in sound to good (this ability/phenomenon of our mind is easily demonstrated).

I lean more to the skeptic side….. so to summarize my capacitor/Charge-Coupled Linear Definition Dividing Network learnings.

Playing with my antique JBLs is like playing with my 1968 Firebird; it is a great hobby with many passionate enthusiasts! I would like to come hear all your setups and talk about JBLs and all things musical.

Replacing old capacitors with new well engineered capacitors will change and likely improve the perceived sound to everyone’s ears.

Charge-Coupled Linear Definition Dividing Networks will sound different and those of you who have done it are pleased with the resulting sound. I perceive that this difference is probably the same order of magnitude as rearranging the position of the speakers in my less than ideal listening area. It may be dramatic, or only an enhancement depending on the condition of my original network. The use of Charge-Coupled Linear Definition Dividing Networks in new high end JBLs may be as much marketing hype as anything (like IMHO “bi-wiring” and “internal monster cable”).

My actions as a result of these learnings are to reorder my priorities for better sound.


improve the positioning/listening room
replace my amps (Adcom GFA 555mkII) with more musical tube amps (my brother has built high power class AB tube amps and is willing to build me a pair that are 300 watts/channel on paper)
recap or charge couple my networks.
But probably most importantly start or find a thread on these forums of recordings which you fine gentleman think sound good on your JBLs. I have found that my JBLs sound really good on some recordings and lousy on others. My new goal Seek out the good recordings.

Anyone want to start sharing a list or point towards an existing one?

Thanks for letting me participate in this great discussion!:applaud:

Ian Mackenzie
09-26-2006, 05:36 PM
Recordings are important but your loudspeaker should never sound disatisfying.

In reference to my earlier notes I think this is wha is important about knowing recording well that you have heard on several systems and you have a fairly good idea of what the real thing actually sounds like.

I actually took the James Morrison CD with me when I visited John Nebel in 2004 for his 4343 - 4435 shoot out. It was impressive on both systems and they were both tonally very similar when subtle adjsutments were made.

John as I recall prefers the 4435.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
09-26-2006, 10:53 PM
SOLENS UNPLUGGED

I propose to listen to each version of the crossover discussed earlier and then provide some final remarks.

Tonight will be the Solen capacitors without the battery connected. The capacitors will be fully discharge prior to audition.

Solen capacitors without battery

I will open by saying I spent the best part of my evening preparing this evaluation and I was thoroughly disappointed.

It did not sound like real music, let alone HiFi. The highs were overpowering and fuzzy, the horns sounded like the diaphragms were damaged, a cracked brittle tone, the mids sterile and cold. The tonality was cold and difficult to determine as it was masked by what could be described as noise or hash.

I could however hear the outline of the Charge-Coupled presentation and concluded many things . To be continued.

The Solens are what the are they. That is about all I can say.

I played the Clarity SA capacitors earlier in the evening and they totally outclassed the Solens in every respect. They are just a superior product and highly recommended.

If you wish to be on the list for the evaluations please send me a pm

Ian

JBLnsince1959
09-27-2006, 08:13 AM
Ian:

:applaud: :applaud:

can't wait....:bouncy:

JBLnsince1959
09-27-2006, 02:37 PM
-
- I hear the DC charge, as largely adding a bit of damping to the AC signal ( after passing through the caps holding onto the DC potential ) .

Generally, I feel that too much DC charge gives an over-dampened effect to the HF and VHF areas,( The UHF "tinklies" will almost actually disappear when the AC signal is overdampened.

:)

Ian...did you notice anything like this with the Solens or the Clarity when CC'ed..( or any other CC'ed caps)

Ian Mackenzie
09-27-2006, 05:06 PM
Ian...did you notice anything like this with the Solens or the Clarity when CC'ed..( or any other CC'ed caps)

I will elaborate shortly.

The thing to remember is that if a capacitor has been designed and voiced correctly, attempting to modify its performance is unlikely to improve but only change its characteristics.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
09-28-2006, 04:33 AM
Charge-Coupling: What does it do?

There appears no conclusive study on the subject supported by reseach and science.

However, it would seem that turning on the voltage potential does something. As to exactly what that will take some figuring and a more intensive analysis than I really have time for at the moment.

But what I can say is adding a voltage potental has the effect of reducing the total "noise" output across the full bandwith of the transducer in question.

Firstly this "noise" as distinct from the signal entering the capacitor is the result of plate/dieletric vibrations.The effect of the charge on the plates is to squeeze the internal construction and reduce the vibrations and hence the reduce the noise. That effect is clearly audible as less masking of the actual signal.

Secondly, the charge makes a more linear electron transfer and this can be heard as a more refined sheen on the highs.

Lastly, over time (a week or so) the compression has the effect of further squeezing and tightening the plates. This longer term physical change alters the transient behaviour of the capacitor and has the effect of modifying the impulse transients in that they appear to bloom above the rest of the overall presentation.

This explanation is supported by my practical evaluations and a technical perspective of the effects of applying a voltage potential on the physical properties of a capacitor.

Ian Mackenzie
09-28-2006, 04:53 AM
CHARGE-COUPLING: It does make a difference?

You might ask given the above is Charge-Coupling a good thing or a bad thing?

I think the answer to that question has more to do with the total context in which it is applied. On a micro level the capacitors you select, the drivers you are using, on a macro level the final calibration of driver sensitivites and voicing of the loudspeaker and on a global level your associated components in your sound system.

By way of example if your stock crossover network uses Mylar capacitors, or Bypassed Mylar changing to Charge-Coupled (Solens) will make a significant difference and most users would recognise this difference as better.

As another example if your stock crossover already uses Polypropolyne capacitors bypassed with Polystyrene capacitors changing to Charge-Coupled (Solen) will be different and users would need to consider carefully of this change was just different, better or worse in each case. (A control reference would be useful in this evaluation as it is easy to be swayed by a difference as being better in comparisons).

The best thing I can say about it is yes, it does make a difference.

There are lots of things you can you do to make your sound system sound different. Some will interpret a change as better, other's worse and for some it will be just different. There are less choices when it comes to improvements and this usually comes at a price.

Its really an individual thing and you have to decide for yourself.

In reviewing this thread my own honest appraisal is that I went from the wow factor, an intial reaction to then disppointment with the expectation that Charge-Coupling was/is superior. The latter part of this thread is a more an investigation and a logical matter of fact assessment.


Ian

Zilch
09-28-2006, 02:24 PM
I believe it's zero-crossing.

So long as the peak-to-peak voltage of the signal is less than 18V, the charge on the "plates" never reverses.

Think of it as Class A operation of capacitors....

Ian Mackenzie
09-28-2006, 03:04 PM
Think of it as Class A operation of capacitors....

There are lots of references to class A in the audio industry, sadly most of them don't stack up under scrutiny.

The fact is I can show you two different class A amps and they will sound entirely different and a non class A amp that will sound better.


That is beside the point as this discussion has been more about making informed decisons than glib references to glossy brochures.

Zilch
09-28-2006, 03:21 PM
That is beside the point as this discussion has been more about making informed decisons than glib references to glossy brochures.I'm talking about the PRINCIPLE of Class A operation, of course, not the hype....

Ian Mackenzie
09-28-2006, 06:38 PM
The Cost Benefit Analysis

As a matter of accuracy of the results I have reconfirmed the longer term effect (3) noted above in comparison to an uncharged Solen capacitors.

If you wish I could run a comparison by between Solen Charge- Coupled Solen capacitors and Charge-Coupled the Clarity SA Capacitors.

However, the cost of using Charge-Coupled topology with the Clarity SA capacitors is double in Aust adjusted dollars, ie AUS$47.00 versus AUS$100.00 for just the UHF and HF filter for example. (for one channel only).

The cost benefit becomes another important aspect in the process of deciding what choices to make.

The cost benefit analysis definately provides a strong case for using using at their price point the Solens (ie ex factory price) in Charge-Coupled topology compared to Solens non Charge-Coupled.

However, if you have the choice of another capacitor like the Clarity SA capacitor that offers the equivalent or better performance in the same instance for AUS$32.00 (for one channel only) without Charge-Coupling then the question is why spend the extra funds?

Clearly if you can satisfy yourself the Clarity SA capacitor is the preferred choice then the cost benefit analysis of using the Clarity capacitors makes them them outright choice (AUS$32.00 verus AUS$47.00).

Is there a case for spending 3 x as much for Charge-Coupling Clarity SA capacitors (AUS$32 versus AUS$100)? Probably not, particularly as in this example we are only referring to the HF and UF section of one channel. Scaling the cost to a whole system may blow out your budget.

And if you are going to open up you wallet on big bucks you are probably going to be a lot more critical about your final choice as there are a number of very good competing alternatives.

Ian

Ducatista47
09-28-2006, 08:41 PM
From our own weblinks - thanks, Techbot! -
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1993-k2-s5500/page10.jpg
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1993-k2-s5500/page11.jpg
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1993-k2-s5500/page12.jpg

I'm not sure if they are saying that Greg Timbers is the inventor of charge coupling; he certainly is the point man at JBL for the technology, as surely as he is Mr. 250Ti.

Clark in Peoria

Ian Mackenzie
09-29-2006, 04:18 PM
Quote: "of course the BIG question ( and I don't think anyone would foot the bill to find out), does CC only improve only low-grade caps or can it provide a big improvement to high grade caps. What Rudy wrote makes a lot of sense, but is it correct?"

Rick,

That is one of the reasons I thought it was worthy of some comment from JBL. Robert's edited post (133) I missed and only just read so I am addressing your question with what information I have.

As a matter of interest 9800 Statement is/was according to the schematic fully charge- coupled and bypassed, and double bypassed and charge-coupled on the woofer as a matter of fact. The 4344Mkt11 only had the mid, HF and UHF charge-coupled and not bypassed. There is no definite indication of what capacitors varieties where used or why in the above systems. We do know the latest Everest statement appears to use Solens in some areas from visual indications. Often the schematics are simplified so we dont know for certain what's in them. There is absolutely no continuity in any the systems, nor specific details as to what was done and why regards the networks. Obviously certain things were done a certain way for a reason. That's all we know. Is it that important? Well obviously the designer thinks so.

If you don't questions and make enquiries or do some of you own research your in the dark. There are too many unknowns to make any assumptions on limited evidence.

If you go out into your back yard the lawn will look nice and smooth and tidy. Stick a your shovel right in a fair way and turn over some of the top soil. Yes you will find some worms, the more you look the more you'll find.! LOL..Muhhahaha.

To answer the first part of your question there is no doubt Charge-Coupling really makes a significant "difference" in the case of the Solens and it reasonable to say they are a low cost product. I use the term difference because its important to make the distinction between being a difference, an improvement which is the case here and perfect which frankly is not the case. Does it work best with a Solen? I don't know and that is another good question.

I don't know if Charge-Coupling make a significant "improvement" to high grade capacitors and I think it would to dumb to make an assumption either way. It probably reasonable to assume that it would make a "difference".

I can tell you that in evaluations the Solen Charge-Coupled capacitors have a different presentation to other high grade capacitors. Premium grade (expensive) capacitor offer particular qualities not found in the lower grades. As to which is best it depends on environmental considerations and people have certain preferences and tastes. There is no doubt certain markets like particular preferences that others don't.

I have no doubt low cost capacitors benefit from Charge-Coupling but the degree of improvement may vary from one variety or brand to another.

Solen Fast capacitors have been around for a long time now. Why speaker manufacturers switch and change varieties from one model to another? There ae probably a number of considerations. Most manufacturers, even Solen have several ranges. They make for example Film Foil types that are better than the metalised 400 volt Fast caps. The Film Foils types are more expensive. Refer to the above post regards cost benefit.

Ian

Rudy Kleimann
09-29-2006, 04:37 PM
I believe it's zero-crossing.

So long as the peak-to-peak voltage of the signal is less than 18V, the charge on the "plates" never reverses.

Think of it as Class A operation of capacitors....

I agree, Zilch. Only thing is, where are you getting 18Volts?

Zilch
09-29-2006, 04:45 PM
Battery biases at 9V.

Signal is AC.

It'd take an 18V P-P signal to drive the cap tiepoint to 0V.

That's plenty loud for compression drivers.... ;)

40.5 peak W across 8 ohms, 20.24 W RMS, no?

Robh3606
09-29-2006, 05:38 PM
Hello Ian

I am a bit confused by what you have written in the above post. To quote myself from 133


If you look at the CC schematics for the L250Ti Jubilee, 4344MK2, and 4348 they don't CC the woofer caps. The effect must not be audible in the woofers range at least down around 3-400Hz where those woofers crossover so I would follow the example and not go through the expense for the 4345. If you look at the 9800/9800SE schematic they do CC the woofer caps but the crossover is at 800Hz. I am using CC Solens on my 2435's and it sounds just fine.

This is a far cry from:


The 4344Mkt11 only had the mid, HF and UHF charge-coupled and not bypassed. There is no definite indication of what capacitors varieties where used or why in the above systems. We do know the latest Everest statement appears to use Solens in some areas from visual indications. Often the schematics are simplified so we dont know for certain what's in them. There is absolutely no continuity in any the systems, nor specific details as to what was done and why regards the networks. Obviously certain things were done a certain way for a reason. That's all we know.


There most definately is a pattern here. If you look closely at Don photos you can see that the lowest crossover around 150Hz or so in the Everest 2 is not charge coupled. All of the other crossover points are CC. So below 300Hz as a cutoff JBL does not use it. All on the crossovers that feed the compression drivers/midranges and up have fully CC networks across the board. Check them out in the Consumer Links.


There is no definite indication of what capacitors varieties where used or why in the above systems.

That's not entirely true. In the 4344Mk2, L250Ti Jubilee, 4348 use NPE electrolytics. In the original 9800 schematic we used for May JBL was using CC Mylar bypassed with PP. They then switched to CC Solens in the SE. We don't know what was used in the 9500 but we have a good idea elsewhere.


Often the schematics are simplified so we dont know for certain what's in them.

That's from a PM I sent not the post. It was in reference to the Everest 2 schematic that was posted by Sgt. Shultz:p . It was a simplified schematic not an actual and it did not show either the CC or Bypass caps that were clearly in the photo's. Most of the posted schematics are complete once you check the capacitor legends. They don't always draw in the bypass caps but they do show up in the legends.


Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
09-29-2006, 06:48 PM
I have never pulled apart a JBL system ie 4344mk11 or other design in "production" and made my own assessment of what sounds different,improved or otherwise in the crossovers so I would prefer not to speculate.

Do you know the brand and specifics of the Mylars and bypass capacitors and NPE's? Any data sheets on what they used?

Perhaps if someone would like to arrange an evaluation of Mylar capacitors bypassed with PP capacitors used by JBL in a L250Ti and compare them with Solens both with and without Charge-Coupling that would be useful input.

The term simplified schematic I have sighted on numerous JBL crossover files including the 4345 3145 network. Anyone who works or has worked in manufacturing or production knows what actually goes into the product can vary from time to time. Notes are sometimes made on the schematics about changes and updates.

Cost is most likely an issue and one would conclude from your remarks that JBL has adopted the cost leadership approach.

But we can't be certain of that is the only consideration and I would never cast a back and white line on that JBL have done as they are known to be gifted and maticulous with the tuning and voicing of the systems.

Everything is done for a reason and the whole is often more than the sum of the parts.

Back to the point though, if you have no cost limitations and can afford seamingly better at least by your own assessment(as in a diy upgrade) then you have some choices.

Ian

Robh3606
09-29-2006, 07:52 PM
I have never pulled apart a JBL system ie 4344mk11 or other design in "production" and made my own assessment of what sounds different,improved or otherwise in the crossovers so I would prefer not to speculate.

Who's speculating?? I never made any remarks about which was better.


Do you know the brand and specifics of the Mylars and bypass capacitors and NPE's? Any data sheets on what they used?

The Mylars used are somewhere buried in the Forum. NPE's???


Perhaps if someone would like to arrange an evaluation of Mylar capacitors bypassed with PP capacitors used by JBL in a L250Ti and compare them with Solens both with and without Charge-Coupling that would be useful input.

The last version of the L250Ti produced used CC NPE with PP bypass so you may want to include that as well. The schematic is readily available on the site.


The term simplified schematic I have sighted on numerous JBL crossover files including the 4345 3145 network. Anyone who works or has worked in manufacturing or production knows what actually goes into the product can vary from time to time.

That's true and we may never know the specific parts used. However you can use parts from 5 different manufacturers and easily meet the schematic. The schematic is not a detailed parts list, just a representation of the parts used and the values/tolerances. When I was talking about a simplified schematic. I was talking about a single cap value shown that was actually 4 caps used to make the required value with the resistors and battery sources not shown for the CC. That's a bit different.


Cost is most likely an issue and one would conclude from your remarks that JBL has adapted the cost leadership approach but we can't be certain of that is the only consideration.

I was trying to give you a actual account of the parts used that I had hard information on. That's all.


But we can't be certain of that is the only consideration and I would never cast a back and white line on that JBL have done as they are known to be gifted and meticulous with the tuning and voicing of the systems.

Everything is done for a reason and the whole is often more than the sum of the parts.


Based on past experience, building clones of several systems and using stock networks I have no doubt the original parts selected by JBL are voiced for use in those systems. I have no reason to believe that has changed with the current systems. Can they be improved upon when cost is not a constraint?? Yes, but I would take Greg's lead from his post and the application of CC networks used by JBL as guidelines as well as the types of caps used where this is available. It's obvious that part selection can effect voicing of the whole system so for those building a clone I would use the exact same capacitor types to hear what the original voicing was and go from there. Any changes may very well be just different and not an actual improvement from the original design. From my own experience I think the CC networks sound better. What are the best CC networks?? Sounds like a driver/system/personal preference call to me. I may like the caps in question you may not. The only way to know is to do it yourself and make your own decisions.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
09-29-2006, 08:50 PM
Practically Speaking

Perhaps manufacturing of NPE has improved over the years.

Quote "I was talking about a single cap value shown that was actually 4 caps used to make the required value with the resistors and battery sources not shown for the CC. That's a bit different. "


I agree it is hard to determine what they use from the schematic. For example the 3145 has 4 x 20uf and 10 uf on the woofer and a 20 uf in the conjurgate. All bypassed with 0.01. The attached image does not really tell much , they say non polarised in the brochure, I can't see the woofer network. Maybe Bo has more pics??

This is what makes it important for the would be upgrader to know what it is they are upgrading and this is what I was trying to say.

For example if the 4345 uses Mylars (?) Bypassed the Solens Charge-Coupled would definately be an improvement. If they used PP bypassed you would have to think a bit harder in terms of different, improved or perfect quality parts (the ultimate).

Draw up a parts list and cost it out per the cost benefit post above. As you say perhaps use NPE on the woofer or it leave it as is (decide if you are biamping?) and focus on the mid, horn and slot filters.

Even buy parts for one channel only for the horn and slot and do your own evaluations and make a call from there.

(*) But as I was saying in the earlier posts, if you have already been up the hill with parts upgrades and other equipment like amps its a whole different ball game to say its time for a upgrade and gee its as simple as A+B+C! You are really saying to yourself here is cool idea but will it do it for me? That is a bit of a ball breaker and I would not be here discussing it if it was that straight forward. I could of course say stuff it and just go out and buy a better loudspeaker system which in reality is another option.

Capacitors are only part of the story.

With something as intricate as this network some members are wondering if they should change out the existing capacitors for better ones or build a whole new network? Putting parts in that will fit will be an issue to be aware of. Do the cost benefit analysis and see if building a whole new network with Solens charge-coupled is more or less expensive than upgrading the current network with good quality parts like Auricaps or Sonicraft Gen11 (just an example).

Quote"Based on past experience, building clones of several systems and using stock networks I have no doubt the original parts selected by JBL are voiced for use in those systems. I have no reason to believe that has changed with the current systems. Can they be improved upon when cost is not a constraint?? Yes, but I would take Greg's lead from his post and the application of CC networks used by JBL as guidelines as well as the types of caps used where this is available. It's obvious that part selection can effect voicing of the whole system so for those building a clone I would use the exact same capacitor types to hear what the original voicing was and go from there. Any changes may very well be just different and not an actual improvement from the original design. From my own experience I think the CC networks sound better. What are the best CC networks?? Sounds like a driver/system/personal preference call to me. I may like the caps in question you may not. The only way to know is to do it yourself and make your own decisions."


You have raised a good point in terms of distinction between cloning or upgrading.

I think we are talking about much the same thing here but as I was saying above (*) this is yet another set of circumstances and its a case of trying it out and seeing of its for you.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
09-29-2006, 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie

This is quite interesting. I have played a variety of CD's Jazz, Pop and so on. My impression is the Solens Charge-Coupled responded well to percussive/string instruments and electronics effects instruments like some of the Larry Carlton stuff I played earlier tonight. The detail and depth of the strings is well revealed with a seemingly polished presence.

Brass is perhaps less well presented and I felt continous notes in complex sections like James Morrison Live in Paris (I asked for the Blues) were less real sounding and at times flat sounding than when played with the Hovlands.Another favourite, Miles Davis Blue in Green sounded flat.




What I think we need to know at this point is are you hearing the intrinsic nature of the Solens or is it the intrinsic nature of the CC ( or both)

for example it maybe the basic nature of the Solens that sounds flat and less real sounding and not the CC itself. the CC might just be smoothing out and cleaning up what is already there ( or not there)

I have run the Solens this afternoon to re confirm the earlier evaluation and after being connected to the battery for few days and I am getting the same result, dry,lacking tonal color, flat and uninteresting.:( .:banghead: Dettol or Iodine anyone.

In comparion to the Clarity capacitors that I have just switched over to, there simply is no comparison.

Yes I am shaking my head too, it does make you wonder and I would like to point to a technical explanation. I will refer the charge-coupled topology to Passlabs in the rather unlikely event it is doing something to the amp.However I am more inclined to say its a combination of actually using a hi end amp and some improvements like the acquaplas diaphragms which are vastly more revealing of timbre and tonality. They simply are more natural than the titanium.

We later wound up the system (Clarity capacitors) to about 105-110 db with meter just starting to move.

Playing the recording below my friend Nick Hopkins, a Pom and muso said he had never heard anythng quite like it off a CD, you could hear exacty how they were playing the drums and other stuff. Full marks to the recording engineer. We both thought the amp had a lot to do with it.

I might order some Auricaps or Hovlands during the week and be done with it.:bouncy:,I can then ship the comparison network to who ever wishes to try it..
Ian
http://www.audience-av.com/passive.htm
http://www.hovlandcompany.com/products/musicap/features.html

Klaus,

I got the CD today Dark Clouds ..a beautiful recording I am playing at the moment.

Thankyou

Ian

JBLnsince1959
10-01-2006, 07:45 AM
Ian:

since the Carity caps seem to be soft a little on the top and not as dynamic as the Hovlands...have you considered combining both the carity and hovalnds together to see if you can get the best of both worlds since they seem to voice the same?

Ian Mackenzie
10-01-2006, 11:40 AM
No is the short answer.

I think soft is an over statement.

I will audition them during the week and provide more details but I am done here. When I get time I will mail the boards over and you can all draw your own conclusions.

Hearing is believing as they say.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
10-01-2006, 05:13 PM
You can buy Clarity SA capacitors from here:

http://www.diycable.com/main/default.php?cPath=35_41&Cid=12e7059ac4d770255684c1e535634bad

Quote from the above link:

"This is the performance king. The SA series of capacitors will compete with any polypropylene capacitor made. If your thinking of dropping a lot of cash on some expensive boutique capacitors you better sample these first!

These are really great for high voltage tube amp applications in coupling, or bypass positions. These are also ideal for speaker crossovers even though their voltage rating is far in excess of what is needed. The SA Series were developed in consultation with B&W’s engineers for use in their Nautilus Series of speaker crossovers. These are no compromise capacitor design where performance is the number one priority. "

The Solens can be purchased direct from Solen or from one of several suppliers incl Parts Express .

Ian Mackenzie
10-04-2006, 08:19 AM
No is the short answer.

I think soft is an over statement.

I will audition them during the week and provide more details but I am done here. When I get time I will mail the boards over and you can all draw your own conclusions.

Hearing is believing as they say.

Ian

I re evaluated the Clarity SA capacitors tonight with a guest (an audiophile)

The comment was they do nothing obviously wrong. Balance from top to bottom and tonality is flawless. Resolving power was impressive and rendering of complexity was natural without any hint of hash (noise) or harshness.

The Clarity SA Capacitors have a slight hint of a warmth and this can be a welcome thing with aluminium and titanium pistonic drivers.

Highly recommended and excellent value for money. There simply is no competition at this price point.

Ian Mackenzie
10-07-2006, 08:42 PM
I have posted edited highlights of this thread over on diyaudio.com to gleen responses from speaker builders on the diyaudio forums.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1024545#post1024545

Ian Mackenzie
10-14-2006, 05:56 PM
The Claritcap's certainly pass a lot more information.

There appears to be a lot more ambience and fine details compared to the bypassed polypropolyne metalised caps.

I suppose this is to be expected. I sense that charge coupling cleans - up the hashness of lesser capacitors making them sound smoother, and if bypassed will offer more air and space.

However, a capacitor is what it is and the quality of the film, foil and winding technique will determine the ultimate degree transparency and tonal accuracy.

Jeff said as much in his response to me regards biasing the Sonicaps.

Incidentally Audience advise charge coupling their Auricaps is unnecessary.

I would suggest having previously used both Hovlands and Auricaps that charge coupling of very good to premium capacitors is probably not going to offer any real improvements. On the other charge coupling its a great way to experience smooth clean performance of moderately priced crossover caps.

These are only my observations, but if you are insane enough to spend $2000-3000 charge coupling a complete passive crossover with Holvands you may well be justified with a claim that it makes it sound better on the way to the nut house! (the money would be better spent on a better source or amps)

Ian

Perhaps this post should be a sticky. Common sense prevails in the end. However if you are curious and not a diy atheist its worth a try.

I would like to reconfirm those 4345/4344 people who would like actively participate in evaluations of the Solen Charge Coupled and Clarity Equivalent crossovers. Note these 3145 equivalent crossovers are only suitable for biamping. Please Pm me you name and location.

The product will be shipped from Australia so it will be necessary to work out some logistics. There will also be a shipping cost and this is estimated to be in the order of US$75.00 to the mainland U.S.A. There may also be members in Europe. The crossovers are valued at approximately US$300.00. If you are able to collectively contribute to overseas shipping cost please let me know.

I don't want them returned and ultimately someone can buy them or they can go up on the market place.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
10-15-2006, 05:31 AM
As a result of several requests the crossovers boards will initally make their way over to Europe. Our friends in Europe continue to impress me with their diy endeavours and I am sure they will have a lot of fun with these networks. :bouncy: If anyone is interested in the U.K I am sure they can be slotted in.:cheers:

The boards will then come back to the States via N.Y. then the Mid West and then over to the West Coast. :beach:

The itinerary will probably change a bit here and there as people pop up and express interest.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
10-20-2006, 04:47 PM
Charge-Coupled Interconnects!!

Last night I was trying to figure out a more universal way of verifying and expressing the audio properties of capacitors and I struck on the idea of using an interconnect.

Why an interconnect you ask? Why not! My inclination is this is more critical than crossover applications because we are dealing with low level signals and the full audio band.

So what I have arranged is a set of identical stereo RCA- RCA leads.
At one end I have opened the connector and inserted the capacitor under test into the inner conductor and have a plain lead also for comparsions.

So I simply audition the lead and then try the other lead from the output of the Dac/peamp to the X250.5 power amp which are direct coupled

The leads can be changed out fairly quickly.

I have auditioned the Auricap so far and I think they are very very transparent.


The plan is to make up some other leads including a Solen charge-coupled lead and see how they go and the Clarity SA Capacitor.

I'll let you know what happens.

Ian :)

Zilch
10-21-2006, 12:12 AM
Charge-Coupling: What does it do?

There appears no conclusive study on the subject supported by reseach and science.

However, it would seem that turning on the voltage potential does something. As to exactly what that will take some figuring and a more intensive analysis than I really have time for at the moment.

I believe it's zero-crossing.

So long as the peak-to-peak voltage of the signal is less than 18V, the charge on the "plates" never reverses.

Think of it as Class A operation of capacitors....

I agree, Zilch. Only thing is, where are you getting 18Volts?

Battery biases at 9V.

Signal is AC.

It'd take an 18V P-P signal to drive the cap tiepoint to 0V.

That's plenty loud for compression drivers.... ;)

40.5 peak W across 8 ohms, 20.24 W RMS, no?


Been wanting to do this for months:

'Scope on bias connection of biased NL200t3 crossover, main HF cap(s).

Playing pink noise 85 dB @ 2 M.

2 V/div vertical, 2 ms/div horizontal.

Bottom of screen is -1V.

Zero crossing'd be middle of bottom major division.

Swings @ 9V +/- 2V, according to design. :)

That'd be 2 Watts peak into 8 Ohms at this point. 6 dB of attenuation after that, tho.

[SEE, we DID have LEDs back in the olden days, and they're still runnin' today.... :p ]

JBLnsince1959
10-21-2006, 09:31 AM
I'll let you know what happens



please do:D