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CLASS A
11-12-2005, 09:40 AM
Dear all
Anyone can advice me of how good the K2 9800 is compared to the 250TI Jubilee and what sort of gains I will see?. I have a chance to buy a pair of these at a very good price.

Thanks in advance.:barf:

Mr. Widget
11-12-2005, 11:06 AM
For that type of investment you really must audition them for yourself. Those two speakers are so different you may find audio nirvana, or see it as a giant step backward.


Widget

CLASS A
11-12-2005, 11:56 AM
Thanks for the comment Mr W. I will bear that in mind and audition it. With the investment in mind, I expect to see a gain to my 250 jubilees. Anyone out there owns a pair of the K2???????

Cheers

Titanium Dome
11-12-2005, 12:06 PM
Thanks for the comment Mr W. I will bear that in mind and audition it. With the investment in mind, I expect to see a gain to my 250 jubilees. Anyone out there owns a pair of the K2???????

Cheers

Your location might help determine if anyone near you has some and would allow an audition.

CLASS A
11-12-2005, 12:39 PM
Thanks T.D., I live in the Uk. JBL's out here are not popular, so it is abit hard to find someone with a pair in their living room.....

Cheers

Mr. Widget
11-12-2005, 12:56 PM
Well then before you spend >$10K on a pair of speakers it sounds like you'll need to spend a little on airfare first...


Widget

frank23
11-12-2005, 02:12 PM
oh, how bad can it be? just buy them!

the big change will probably going from direct radiators to horn driven mid and high

and according to the specs the 9800 are 4dB more sensitive, but probably have a slightly less prominent low end

well I haven't ever heard any of the 250 or 9800, but I'd bet my money on the 9800

frank

DRG
11-12-2005, 02:33 PM
Dear all
Anyone can advice me of how good the K2 9800 is compared to the 250TI Jubilee and what sort of gains I will see?. I have a chance to buy a pair of these at a very good price.

Thanks in advance.:barf:If you can afford a pair of K2-S9800 then buy a pair of 1400 Array.

CLASS A
11-12-2005, 03:13 PM
Why would the K2 9800 might have a slightly less prominent low end even though the K2 have a 15" compared to a 14" bass driver unit on the 250???

Cheers


oh, how bad can it be? just buy them!

the big change will probably going from direct radiators to horn driven mid and high

and according to the specs the 9800 are 4dB more sensitive, but probably have a slightly less prominent low end

well I haven't ever heard any of the 250 or 9800, but I'd bet my money on the 9800

frank

Zilch
11-12-2005, 03:39 PM
Scroll down to Fig. 5 here:

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/921/index4.html

CLASS A
11-12-2005, 04:32 PM
Scroll down to Fig. 5 here:

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/921/index4.html

Thanks for the info, I dont understand alot about graphs but the K2's one shows a much more flatter response through out the range with with higher DB. Please correct me if Im wrong, but I think it is telling me that the bass is more than enough and not shy compared to the other speakers in the test.
Cheers

Zilch
11-12-2005, 04:42 PM
You are correct. That's supposedly actual in-room response, as well.

There's also a link to a review of them somewhere on the forum.

Like Lancer, I'd like someone here on the forum to own the new Project Array flagship speakers, tho.

[So's they can tell us ALL about them.... :p ]

Lancer
11-12-2005, 04:45 PM
I couldn't care less who owns them or what they have to say about them.

I do want a pair though. I would get a pair of the 800 Array.

CLASS A
11-12-2005, 04:48 PM
You are correct. That's supposedly actual in-room response, as well.

There's also a link to a review of them somewhere on the forum.

Like Lancer, I'd like someone here on the forum to own the new Project Array flagship speakers, tho.

[So's they can tell us ALL about them.... :p ]

Cheers Z, ever since I purchased my pair of 250 ti Jubilee, I have not come across another pair of speakers which gives me a all round performance and that includes the B & W N800. The bass with the 250's is just fab and the last thing I want is to loose that. Since the K2 is the flagship model, things should only get better.....

Regards

Mr. Widget
11-12-2005, 06:04 PM
The bass with the 250's is just fab and the last thing I want is to loose that. Since the K2 is the flagship model, things should only get better.....I think it is safe to say that the bass will be quite different with the K2. I have used the 1500AL (the woofer used in the K2-S9800) I have used the 1500AL in several sized boxes with different tunings and the bass is extremely articulate. This woofer is probably the best sounding 15" woofer I have ever heard but the bass is decidedly thin. This might be an asset in some rooms, but not in mine. The 14" woofer in the 250s has considerably greater low frequency extension than the 15" in the K2. Since the 250 has a low crossover point to the 8" midbass driver it doesn't need to be quite as articulate as that required in the JBL Flagship with it's 800Hz crossover point.

Again, you may prefer the sound of the K2-S9800. I am sure many do, but I am also sure that there are many who would prefer the 250Ti. It will depend on your associated equipment, the room, and your listening preferences.


Widget

frank23
11-13-2005, 02:26 AM
Why would the K2 9800 might have a slightly less prominent low end even though the K2 have a 15" compared to a 14" bass driver unit on the 250???

Cheers

well, I have read that flagship JBL models like the K2 were designed for the japanese market and that the japanese like a "lighter"bass. Some say this is because they have smaller rooms than americans.

The specs from the K2 9800 also show that the 9800 is specced to be at -6dB at 45Hz. That is not really low. Of course specs never tell the whole story, but I think these specs match the remarks of mr.widget who has used the 15" drivers himself.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/home-speakers.htm

yggdrasil
11-13-2005, 04:12 AM
I went by the local JBL dealer the other day. Norwegian price is NOK 249000 / $ 35000....

Maron Horonzakz
11-13-2005, 06:49 AM
Well if the 1500al sounds too thin in the S98000 That can be corrected by substituting a better woofer. That design is not carved in stone. Try a 2235 or even a 14" 1400 with adapter reducing ring. to match size. The bass sound can be americanized for a fuller bass. Even a TAD 15" 1601. The K2 is not the holy grail your allowed to do what ever you want with it to.;)

Velociraptor84
11-13-2005, 09:48 AM
Well you guys I can say that the K2 S9800 is my dream fantasy speakers that I always wanted but they are way toooooooo EXPENSIVE. I mean they are like buying a Benz or something. I can say though the only K2 speakers I ever heard was the K2 S3800. I went to Osaka Japan this summer and went to a huge electronic store and they had these speakers in the JBL section. I can say I was soo supprised on how clear they sounded and the highs were soo sharp too. But even those they are still toooo expensive. But I wounder is if the K2 S3800 sounded soo good I wounder how good will the K2 S9800 will sound. I will probley fall to the ground on how clear and life like they sound.:D

Mr. Widget
11-13-2005, 10:34 AM
Well if the 1500al sounds too thin in the S98000 That can be corrected by substituting a better woofer. That design is not carved in stone.I would have to disagree with you entirely. That woofer is remarkable. I have directly compared the 2235 (which I hold in high regard) and the 1500AL is significantly superior in every way except for low bass extension. Using a 2235 or any 15" woofer offerings from TAD or anyone else I can think of would be a step backward.

I brought this up initially since Class A mentioned the bass of his 250s were spot on... in his application, I'd suggest that he might be disappointed with the low bass. In a typical listening room where you get some degree of room gain, in rooms where many find the classic JBL sound a bit too bass heavy, you might find the K2-S9800 is perfectly balanced. In my room I felt I needed to add a sub below 50Hz.


Widget

pangea
11-13-2005, 02:01 PM
I would have to disagree with you entirely. That woofer is remarkable. I have directly compared the 2235 (which I hold in high regard) and the 1500AL is significantly superior in every way except for low bass extension. Using a 2235 or any 15" woofer offerings from TAD or anyone else I can think of would be a step backward.

I brought this up initially since Class A mentioned the bass of his 250s were spot on... in his application, I'd suggest that he might be disappointed with the low bass. In a typical listening room where you get some degree of room gain, in rooms where many find the classic JBL sound a bit too bass heavy, you might find the K2-S9800 is perfectly balanced. In my room I felt I needed to add a sub below 50Hz.


Widget

I wonder why it always have to be, that speakers are either Bass heavy or bass shy?

Wouldn't it be more correct to say, that they are bass capable, or bass shy?

Being bass heavy, has such a negative ring to it IMHO. It somehow implies to me, that they might be both slow and fat at all times, regardless of the music played.
Anyone else agree?

BR
Roland

Rolf
11-13-2005, 08:41 PM
I wonder why it always have to be, that speakers are either Bass heavy or bass shy?

Wouldn't it be more correct to say, that they are bass capable, or bass shy?

Being bass heavy, has such a negative ring to it IMHO. It somehow implies to me, that they might be both slow and fat at all times, regardless of the music played.
Anyone else agree?

BR
Roland

Hi. I must disagree. In respect with those who are more tecknical than me, I believe the physicks? come into this. A "bass heavy" does not mean "slow and fat". A "bass heavy" speaker can be very fast indeed. It is just a matter of how much air it can move (bass heavy). If it is a well designed woofer with a big enough magnet it will also move fast. With my (little) tekcnical know-how it must be why with JBL woofers you can hear f.ex. what kind of bass guitar is beeing used.

Those more tecknical here on the forum may explain this better. I just judge with my ears and listening experiance.

Rolf

pangea
11-14-2005, 02:44 AM
Hi. I must disagree. In respect with those who are more tecknical than me, I believe the physicks? come into this. A "bass heavy" does not mean "slow and fat". A "bass heavy" speaker can be very fast indeed. It is just a matter of how much air it can move (bass heavy). If it is a well designed woofer with a big enough magnet it will also move fast. With my (little) tekcnical know-how it must be why with JBL woofers you can hear f.ex. what kind of bass guitar is beeing used.

Those more tecknical here on the forum may explain this better. I just judge with my ears and listening experiance.

Rolf

OK, slow and fat wasn't the best description, but "heavy" still implies "boomy" sounding, or overly emphasised at all times IMO, regardless the music played.

Bass capable implies, that they can perform, whenever it's needed.


BR
Roland

jpb_dk
11-14-2005, 06:10 AM
Hi Guys,

I like to add some oppinions to the discussion.
Some might think i'm a fool (thanks) others might say ,....Hmmm maby.
There are a few factores that are for some reason newer mentioned in the dissucions. (wonder why) :banghead:
Eithere its a matter of superp marketing or lack of knowledge. (the dominant capital that roules business/marketing/probaganda to either avoide facts or publish it.

Well the more i understand every day the more i accept NOT to understand.
So for you who only reply this posts to "wank" please dont *lol*

Well. There are several problems in designing speakers ! If you take a scientifically point of view a loudspeaker would never be able to reproduce music because of the tolerance included in the "link". Fact is, that it can reproduce music. Some better than others.

Dominant factors is to specify eithere
A, what we are measuring
B, liste to
C, or the conditons under what we are doing it
a, could be the question what is the "dut" (device under test)
b, could be the question am i listning to the speaker, or reflections in the room, standing waves (what phase), commercial digital CD's/Master tapes, or music from speakers in a theater.
c, psychoacoustic factors. Colors in the room, the boss is an idiot today, i read a silly post from jpb_dk, humidity, environmental temperature ect...

Aihh who mentioned distortion and outphased standing waves, and reflections???? Never seen it.!

In my professional life i have had the possibilities to play around with diffrent audio-equipement. Mostly the expencive.. Theshold, Krell and ML amps and two Gryphon amps. Speakers, JBL, B&W, Inifinity Beta with 2x 4x "12 (8pcs) woofers with servo, Looks and sounds outstanding. Infinitesimal 4, cheap sat/sub system,... Also with servo on the woofer. Well servo is not the only direction to heaven, but its heading the right direction. Radical control and reduction of distortion.. (a reduction from 25-40 % to only 5% is normal)
Just imagine if it was combined with outphasing standing waves it the environment where you listhen.. Well i listhen in a liveing room and can not (for the moment) force my whife to place flowers in a audiophile correct way around the living room.

Imagine a JBL woofer, that only had to do 30% of its normal job because it was told what to do ???? Servo, environmental included factors act..

Many "big and new" speakers sounds more "weak" than old ones. Simply because the controll has become better....

My humble theory is that the new woofers maby sound "thin" because they are better controlled then units based on woofer-technology from 1980. Thiel and Small did a great job in understanding whats going on in a woofer/cabinet !! But guys many things has been understood since that day.

What about a kick-ass JBLproject with servo and environmental "control"..ya ya i know reflections can not be manipulated/controlled, but standing waves and distortion can.

I love this forum for the many questions (deep or dayli) and the possibility to gather competence around the world...

What do you think guys.. ?
I think that both 250 and K2 sounds great, but diffrent.

Thanks
Jens

Maron Horonzakz
11-14-2005, 06:17 AM
Widget... I agree the 1500al is a remarkable woofer but the last octive is a bummer. Its too bad a sub is needed. For the price JBL should have included one. They do in the REVEL line.;)

Maron Horonzakz
11-14-2005, 06:43 AM
As my audioaligest stated Japanese ears are exactly the same as ours. Its all a matter of taste.;)

jpb_dk
11-14-2005, 07:07 AM
DRG, i think at least You, I and a few others are on the same track discussing, what we are discussing and what has happend the last 20 years. :blah:

Maron Horonzakz
11-14-2005, 07:20 AM
Ive been around for 71. Ive known exactly what has gone on. How many on this site own a JBL S98000.;)

jpb_dk
11-14-2005, 07:40 AM
Maron,..

Count -1 one for me. I dont.

Maron Horonzakz
11-14-2005, 07:50 AM
Count me #2. Its hard to buy one on a pension check. So whats every body els,s excuse? how doe,s Japans clout get so mutch attention? They buy the product. While I dumpster dive to find the old stuff I love. If you want power...Its done with your wallet. Then JBL will listen to your input as to what you want in a speaker to sound like. :D

Alex Lancaster
11-14-2005, 07:57 AM
:o: Even worse: How many on these Forums has heard a 9800?, I have not had the chance.

pangea
11-14-2005, 08:39 AM
:o: :o: :o: I've neither owned, nor listened to those babies, but I sure as hell, would love to. :p :p :p

But for now, I'm quite happy with my 2235's, fed with 800W each. :applaud:
Does that give enough controll and headroom? ;)

BR
Roland

BooBoo Magoo
11-14-2005, 08:53 AM
I'm quite happy with my LE8T's fed with 30W each. Is that enough control and headroom? I can't imagine 2235H's or 1500AL's sounding any better. They are just big old slow fifteens with muddy bass. :barf:

pangea
11-14-2005, 09:12 AM
I'm quite happy with my LE8T's fed with 30W each. Is that enough control and headroom? I can't imagine 2235H's or 1500AL's sounding any better. They are just big old slow fifteens with muddy bass. :barf:


Ha, the 2235 will have your wimpy LE8T's for breakfast any day! :die:
Know that the bass is as rock steady as the cliff of Gibraltar with my 2235's!;)

BR
Roland

BooBoo Magoo
11-14-2005, 09:18 AM
Ha! They would have to catch them to have them for breakfast, but they are too big and lazy to catch my nimble little LE8T's. ;)

Mr. Widget
11-14-2005, 09:25 AM
Widget... I agree the 1500al is a remarkable woofer but the last octive is a bummer. Its too bad a sub is needed. For the price JBL should have included one. They do in the REVEL line.;)One example of just how wonderful the 1500AL is, is how well it does handle a bit of EQ at the bottom. I also discovered while working with the Project May, that using a pair of them with a bit of EQ resulted in VLF that was quite good. Using one pair or two, I was never able to hear any compression or strain from these woofers at any power level I could take.

Japanese ears, American taste...:blah: I have seen it in print several times that one reason for the British sound, or the East Coast Sound, West Coast Sound etc. is more to do with building materials and room size than anything else. While my room is far from an anechoic chamber it seems to give almost no bass boost. It is 24' by 27' by 10' with very large openings on the short walls making it appear some what greater than 27'... in HT application I use a remarkable amount of VLF and it seems quite tame until a mortar shell explodes. :applaud: This is why I said at the outset that the bass from the 1500AL may be just right for may rooms... CLASS A loves his 250s, he'll probably want a bit more bass. I know a hell of a lot of people who are not JBL fans because the bass is too heavy (think L65 here;)) for these people the low end of the K2-S9800 may be just right.


Widget

Mr. Widget
11-14-2005, 09:51 AM
Well servo is not the only direction to heaven, but its heading the right direction. Radical control and reduction of distortion.. (a reduction from 25-40 % to only 5% is normal)
Maybe... I have heard some of the Infinity servo woofers and found them OK but not really quite the route to my idea of audio heaven. I own a Velodyne servo sub and find the "control" to be too controlling. The damn thing sounds more like a bass pump than a speaker producing music. I find it too mechanical sounding... it is true the distortion is very low, but with very good woofers the distortion isn't a real problem at reasonable power levels.



Many "big and new" speakers sounds more "weak" than old ones. Simply because the controll has become better....

My humble theory is that the new woofers maby sound "thin" because they are better controlled then units based on woofer-technology from 1980.I think there is some validity to this idea. However, a woofer like the Sub1500 is quite controlled and is nowhere near thin. This is an extreme example but I used it to force the point. There are many woofers out there that are tight and controlled sounding (when used in a properly designed box) that have ample low frequency extension.


Widget

Zilch
11-14-2005, 11:33 AM
What about a kick-ass JBLproject with servo and environmental "control"..ya ya i know reflections can not be manipulated/controlled, but standing waves and distortion can.JBL and H/K are making ever bigger commitments to room correction technology. See current LSR, for example....

Rolf
11-14-2005, 12:47 PM
Ha! They would have to catch them to have them for breakfast, but they are too big and lazy to catch my nimble little LE8T's. ;)

WOW!

Rolf

BooBoo Magoo
11-14-2005, 01:10 PM
WOW!

Rolf
:p JK!

Maron Horonzakz
11-15-2005, 06:01 AM
BOO BOO.....Scram you little brat (LE8T) You cant play with us big boys. I have those little full range brats too. But I never never shake them....I also never let them play in the big streets. The mid west is a waistland when it comes to the newer JBL systems I cant find a dealer that will handle them. Maybe the JBL rep is afraid to walk the streets here after dark.;)

CLASS A
11-26-2005, 03:17 AM
Thanks for all the feedback guys.....

I have read alot of reviews on the web since and have decided to go for them after christmas. I have re-checked the spec of the 250 Jubilees and they are +/- 2dB, 50Hz-21KHz, usable responce (-6db) 30Hz-25KHz, 89 dB, 2.83 volts @1m, crossover frequency@ 350Hz, 1.2KHz, 5KHz.
Concidering the K2 9800 Goes down to 45Hz (-6dB), I m sure they are just fine.
Funny thing is, I have heard many top end speakers with great frequency responce eg: B&w N800 dimond@ 32Hz - 28kHz 3dB on reference axis, -6dB at 25Hz and 33kHz, 90dB spl (2.83V, 1m). On paper, the low end figuires just slaughters my 250 Jubilees, but not in the real world. The bass from the Jubilee's have much more attact and bottom end grunt, I have tested it back to back with my own recordings.
From my own conclusion and I have found this also when I used to be very heavy into car audio, the American gear are all rated very conservatively compared to the rest of the world. I rest my case........
I will pass on photos and comments when I get them in the house.
Thanks again....Cheers :cheers:

Titanium Dome
11-26-2005, 07:02 AM
This will be a New Year's you'll never forget. Best of luck in procuring these wonders, and please be generous with your impressions once you have them.