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jblfreeek
11-09-2005, 05:46 AM
If you were to choose between a JBL 250 TI and 4430 which one would you pick? (and why?) :bs:

To be used with a 150W SS amp. (Possibly to 300W SS amp upgrade might happen soon) :blink:

Thank you!

pelly3s
11-09-2005, 06:24 AM
I would personally go with the 4430's over the 250ti's. they are two totally different animals and I perfer the 2 way with a horn over anything else

one more thing the 4430s are more efficient just slightly but they will require a little less power. And I cant vouch for the 250's on how loud they get but you can push a 4430 into some serious volume levels

Lancer
11-09-2005, 06:51 AM
If you were to choose between a JBL 250 TI and 4430 which one would you pick? (and why?)It would be absurd not to own both. :rotfl:

The 250Ti has better bass, the 250Ti has better midrange, the 250Ti has a better top end so why the 4430? Because it's too freakin' cool for what it is. :coolness: It's simply a very nice loudspeaker with decent dynamics. Look how long it took Earl Geddes to finally part his pair out that he bought from John Eargle. I parted my pair out shortly after but that's only because I'm finally over the need to have big boxes sitting around everywhere. I am working on a smaller 4430 type system right now. I'm also working on a different take on the 250Ti system as well.

jblnut
11-09-2005, 06:52 AM
It all depends on your taste really. Do you want a very "polite" sounding speaker with response that is almost flat across the entire spectrum (250) ? Or do you want something a little livelier that more closely mimics a "live" sound (4430)? I went with the 250Ti and I have no regrets. It's easily the better looking of the two (maybe a factor depending on your house-mate) and it has no problems at all playing loud if that's your thing.
Truth be told I've yet to hear a 4425/4430/4435 but I've heard plenty of horn-loaded speakers and my taste runs more towards direct radiators.

jblnut

Regis
11-09-2005, 07:04 AM
The 250Ti can be a polite speaker, depending on the material and it won't be as efficient as a horn system, but they can absolutely haul. You put a lot of power to the pair and you will not be disappointed. The sound output out of a pair 250Ti's is phenominal! While I've never heard the 4430's, I'm familiar with the L-300's and I can't say that I wouldn't be happy owning the 250Ti's. They are very accurate as well. Appearance wise, you can't go wrong either. In person, the tall trapezoids make a bold statement "I am a magnificent pair of JBL loudspeakers, fire me up and prepare to be amazed".

Lancer
11-09-2005, 07:16 AM
I went with the 250Ti and I have no regrets.Sick of your charge coupled networks yet?

spkrman57
11-09-2005, 07:28 AM
I own neither of them, but will soon be borrowing a pair of 4430's to listen to and see what I think of them.

I know one thing, being a horn fanatic, I would be willing to go with a "less than perfect" horn system over a "almost perfect" direct radiator system just because of the warmth of horns when used with tubes.

I will have a reason to bring my MC-240 out of the closet when the 4430's arrive. If I found a way to biamp without using SS for the electronic crossover, I would use the MC-240 for the 2235 and my 45 SET amp for the HF section. I have a Rane crossover, but not keen with mixing SS with my tube systems.

I am not trying to sway anyone or set precedent here, I just know what I like and it is not always the better system if you want to look at it that way.

I will also try the system out with a SS only system and see what it sounds like also, but I am thinking the SS will take away some of the warmth and depth of soundstage that tubes and horns will give me.

I will have to live without my 2242 sub while running these also. I know many out there think the 2235 is comparable with the 2242 except for total output power, but I hear incredible things running 2242 even at LOW power levels, even under 10 watts going to the sub.

I also have to say that the 2242 in the 9 cubic ft cab loads quickly/effortlessly in my smallish room(sort of like in a car).

Just a few thoughts on the subject!

Ron:bouncy:

Lancer
11-09-2005, 07:35 AM
I know many out there think the 2235 is comparable with the 2242 except for total output power.There are!? Those poor bastards! :dont-know

JuniorJBL
11-09-2005, 07:41 AM
4430's. But I have listened to them as a friend has them. I own 250's and I just love this speaker. I also have a friend that has 250's that we upgraded to Ti's and that was the biggest improvement I have ever heard from a single speaker.
IMO I think that the 250's are VERY comparable to alot of modern day speakers and will put to shame anything you can buy from CC or BB.
I am also a direct radiator fan.:)

JuniorJBL
11-09-2005, 07:43 AM
There are!? Those poor bastards! :dont-know

Used as a passive radiator:rotfl:

jblnut
11-09-2005, 07:53 AM
Sick of your charge coupled networks yet?

Nope - and probably never will be :) .

The guy who made them really knew what he was doing. Shame he's not around here any more....


:D

jblnut

Titanium Dome
11-09-2005, 09:39 AM
Nope - and probably never will be :) .

The guy who made them really knew what he was doing. Shame he's not around here any more....


:D

jblnut


I'd like a set of those charge coupled networks for the L250s I'm reconditioning. Maybe the "netwerk konstruktor" is like a bad penny and will turn up again? :p (Don't take it personally, boys, a penny's a penny in my book.)

Seriously, even without the charge coupled networks and Ti tweeters, I'd still take the L250 over the 4430, and I have both. They are each fine speakers, but the L250 is timeless in many ways, while the 4430 seems stuck in time.

jblfreeek
11-09-2005, 09:40 AM
Based on replies, I think I am more biased towards 250ti's. As a bonus, I think there is more chance finding a nice 250ti than 4430.

Thanks for replying all, it really helped! :):)

jblfreeek
11-09-2005, 09:46 AM
Seriously, even without the charge coupled networks and Ti tweeters, I'd still take the L250 over the 4430, and I have both. They are each fine speakers, but the L250 is timeless in many ways, while the 4430 seems stuck in time.

Thanks TD! The word timeless answers it.
Btw, which 250 do you recommend most?

P.S I can get my hands on a regular 250TI, not Jubilee or Limited or Classic.

Titanium Dome
11-09-2005, 09:47 AM
4430's. But I have listened to them as a friend has them. I own 250's and I just love this speaker. I also have a friend that has 250's that we upgraded to Ti's and that was the biggest improvement I have ever heard from a single speaker.
IMO I think that the 250's are VERY comparable to alot of modern day speakers and will put to shame anything you can buy from CC or BB.
I am also a direct radiator fan.:)

I've thought about this, but virtually everything I've read here--and I've read a lot--from GisLanZilDget and others tends to say "Won't work" a la GT.

Was there a thread on this I missed, or perhaps a comment in a thead? What I really want is a description of your process. Thanks.

spkrman57
11-09-2005, 10:05 AM
I can't wait to hear the 4430's and see what they do. It seems there is a "old-school" and "new-school" of thought going on here. Kind of like why it's so cool to drive around in a 57 chevy even though a modern day corvette will run circles around it!

I guess my age is starting to show;)

Ron

Lancer
11-09-2005, 10:18 AM
I've thought about this, but virtually everything I've read here--and I've read a lot--from GisLanZilDget and others tends to say "Won't work" a la GT.

Was there a thread on this I missed, or perhaps a comment in a thead? What I really want is a description of your process. Thanks.Ah! The L250 to 250Ti was a Dealer upgrade package available directly from JBL. It shipped in a nice upgrade kit. If I recall correctly they ran ~ $600 each. Maybe they were ~ $600 a pair. Of course any DIY with the correct information can handle the task simply by collecting the requisite drivers and networks. A DIY with time and inclination would simply build their own networks, probably biased as well.

Lancer
11-09-2005, 10:23 AM
Thanks TD! The word timeless answers it.
Btw, which 250 do you recommend most?

P.S I can get my hands on a regular 250TI, not Jubilee or Limited or Classic.They all have their pluses and minuses. Personally I would go for the original and then build my own charge coupled filters for them.

Lancer
11-09-2005, 10:24 AM
I can't wait to hear the 4430's and see what they do.Well... if you aren't impressed then either you set them up wrong or your backend sux. :p

Lancer
11-09-2005, 10:27 AM
Hey! Check this out!

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/4430-35.htm

Is David awesome or what!? :applaud:

Techbot? Can you please post the L250 and 250Ti Engineering Design Specification sheets? :)

Thanks! :)

spkrman57
11-09-2005, 10:33 AM
I have heard that from some folks. I did not know there was a special way to run them. Is the preferred method biamped or run straight up? Do they have controls that need to be set for each different listening environment?

I will run them with the MC-240/Sansui AU-7900(recapped and checked by tech)(75 wpc)/McCormick 170 wpc(model unknown off memory), or I can borrow whatever amps needed to run them to the best of their ability.

I have been told that some run them with PP tube amps with great success.

Ron

Don C
11-09-2005, 12:46 PM
I've thought about this, but virtually everything I've read here--and I've read a lot--from GisLanZilDget and others tends to say "Won't work" a la GT.

Was there a thread on this I missed, or perhaps a comment in a thead? What I really want is a description of your process. Thanks.
I think that I remember the "Won't work" quote. It was given in response to the idea of replacing the cone midrange of a 250 with an XPL type dome midrange.

Mr. Widget
11-09-2005, 01:06 PM
IMO I think that the 250's are VERY comparable to alot of modern day speakers and will put to shame anything you can buy from CC or BB. I don't think you can buy a decent speaker from either of those two chains... I certainly wouldn't waste my time there except maybe to buy a phone.

As for the 250Ti speakers, I agree that they are quite good, if you can get past their unique look.;)


Widget

Lancer
11-09-2005, 01:20 PM
I think that I remember the "Won't work" quote. It was given in response to the idea of replacing the cone midrange of a 250 with an XPL type dome midrange.I'm sure some smartass on this forum has done it anyway and thinks it's great... :rotfl:

Bolting one into an L250 or 250Ti without a care is a dubious effort at best.

Titanium Dome
11-09-2005, 02:02 PM
Maybe it was both that and (in another thread) the idea of putting a 904Ti in there. :hmm:

Earl K
11-09-2005, 02:24 PM
Maybe it was both that and (in another thread) the idea of putting a 904Ti in there.

Here ya go ! :D


I'm sure some smartass on this forum has done it anyway and thinks it's great...

Bolting one into an L250 or 250Ti without a care is a dubious effort at best.

"Reckless" is my middle name . :p

Lancer
11-09-2005, 02:42 PM
Here ya go ! :D



"Reckless" is my middle name . :pYEAH BABY! :rotfl:

Earl K
11-09-2005, 03:54 PM
- Sometime in the next year or two , I intend to acquire the necessary components for a system like the above.
- Of course, I'll need to sell some stuff first.
- This whole "won't work" discussion will take on a more personal slant when I get around to trying to voice, different legacy tweeters with these newer Ti mids. :o:

:D

mikebake
11-09-2005, 04:13 PM
Not to worry, bro. I'll help you out!! We'll just run em passive and place them to get the bass right in your room. I try not to place any speakers in too stupid of a location, but I haven't heard these sound bad yet.
Shouldn't be too hard to get them to sound good. Sounding spectacular is reserved for professionally installed units in dedicated/designed rooms with a killer front end; you and I will just "have to settle":D Get some of your favorite discs ready............
I have heard that from some folks. I did not know there was a special way to run them. Is the preferred method biamped or run straight up? Do they have controls that need to be set for each different listening environment?

I will run them with the MC-240/Sansui AU-7900(recapped and checked by tech)(75 wpc)/McCormick 170 wpc(model unknown off memory), or I can borrow whatever amps needed to run them to the best of their ability.

I have been told that some run them with PP tube amps with great success.

Ron

jblfreeek
11-09-2005, 04:45 PM
They all have their pluses and minuses. Personally I would go for the original and then build my own charge coupled filters for them.

Okies, step one is to get'em ;)

Next, I will ask about building charge coupled filters because I am clueless on the meaning of that. :dont-know

mike
11-11-2005, 02:43 PM
I would try to get a pair of 250Ti's if you are able to. They are probably the least compromising speaker that JBL ever made. Once you get used to the 250Ti's you always notice the short comings of most other JBL's.

I think there is a pair on Ebay currently.

Mike

jblfreeek
11-15-2005, 03:23 PM
I would try to get a pair of 250Ti's if you are able to. They are probably the least compromising speaker that JBL ever made. Once you get used to the 250Ti's you always notice the short comings of most other JBL's.

I think there is a pair on Ebay currently.

Mike

Thank you Mike :)

spkrman57
11-17-2005, 09:39 AM
Mike dropped off the 4430's yesterday. I have a Theta cd transport/McCormack DAC and Sansui Au-7900 integrated (75wpc/rebuilt and modded to better than spec).

First thing Mike told me to do was to get the 4430's off the ground so the horns would be at ear level. Well I had to just listen to them wrong a few minutes just to get a gist of what they were like.

After Mike left, I found some older speaker cabinets that were close to the right size, but they are slightly higher than what is needed for the ideal height.

Anyways I will describe in brief the points of interest that caught my attention on these:

1. Imaging would have to be the best attribute of this system. No matter where you stand/sit/etc... they hold the soundstage image and it does not get lost like most systems when you are not in the sweet spot.

2. Bass is very good for a 2-way system where compromises are expected when running a 15" driver up to 1khz. I will never confuse the 2235 with a 2242, but they are different animals running with their own herds.

3. Efficiency is rated for 93db/watt, but I think that is very conservative, or my small living room loads very quick!

4. After a hour of polite listening to less than 10 wpc to warm everything up and loosen up the drivers after their drive down from the northern part of the state, I decided to see how good the "FUN"factor is with these for rock and roll and live music which sucks on my horn systems.


OMGhttp://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/blink.gif !!!!

I played my "Talking heads live" cd with "Tom-tom club" track and decided to goose the volume control a little bit.

Dynamic slam and felt like the Maxell tape ad with my hair blown back, I felt like I was held captive on my listening postion on the couch until the song ended.

Too bad I had already sold my larger amps when I turned tube/horn junkie, the Sansui was my biggest amp in house at the moment.


I had played with the MF/HF controls and ended up at 0 db for the current time being. Once I get the right riser to set the 4430's on for the right height, I might go back and play with the settings a bit more.


Now the sad part, After a hour and a half of listening I have had to attend to muldane domestic necessities so I am eagerly awaiting another listening session so I can hear some more "high-energy" rock and roll since the tubes/horn systems are not very compatible with that type music.

More to follow later, back to my day job.

BTW: Mike - They are not going back to you - they are mine now and I will send monthly payments(like child support) until they're paid off!

I feel like I am a memberof a very exclusive club now, the 4430's owners club!


Ronhttp://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/applaud.gif http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/applaud.gif http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/applaud.gif

Titanium Dome
11-17-2005, 09:50 AM
Yes, the 4430s are very nice speakers. Congrats from one owner to another. :thmbsup:

Let us know when you find the ideal height with those biradial horns.

Lancer
11-17-2005, 09:52 AM
Why did Mike bring them down to you again?
You know those are Earl Geddes' and John Eargle's old monitors don't you?

mikebake
11-17-2005, 10:04 AM
3. Efficiency is rated for 93db/watt, but I think that is very conservative, or my small living room loads very quick!

4. After a hour of polite listening to less than 10 wpc to warm everything up and loosen up the drivers after their drive down from the northern part of the stated off!

I feel like I am a memberof a very exclusive club now, the 4430's owners club!


Ronhttp://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/applaud.gif http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/applaud.gif http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/applaud.gif

A)
It may be a conservative rating, wouldn't suprise me, but they do load a room right nicely

B) I know you are an advocate/believer in driver break-in; the 2235's were just reconed like around April or so, and really have damn few hours on them, and rarely with much juice. The 2426's are probably the new ones I just bought a few months ago from JBL.

C) Hey, you might want dual membership and join the Performance Club, too, someday!

mikebake
11-17-2005, 10:06 AM
Why did Mike bring them down to you again?
You know those are Earl Geddes' and John Eargle's old monitors don't you?

Not again, first time.
Warhorses with a lineage!! Coolness factor built in.:bouncy:

mikebake
11-17-2005, 10:07 AM
BTW, between the 250Ti and 4430, I would choose the Array series.

spkrman57
11-17-2005, 10:14 AM
Yeah Lancer, I do know that I now own a piece of history. Without paper documentation of course, but then again a piece of paper is still just paper!

I know my 2226's took months to break in since I don't have much wattage on tap to use. Right now I am limited to 75wpc and will keep it low for a month or two to allow proper break-in.

While I would consider 20 - 30 wpc as high power levels, most folks on this forum would consider that just enough for running tweeters.

I can't wait until I get the horn height just right. I take it that aligning the horn throat with my ear level should be the proper height. If not, hopefully someone here will enlighten me with the proper method.

Ron

spkrman57
11-17-2005, 10:19 AM
A)

C) Hey, you might want dual membership and join the Performance Club, too, someday!


Mike, I am just keeping my head afloat now. and with the 4430's in my living room, and the Edgarhorn system with 2242 sub in the basement(when I get it cleared out). I can't wait for the E-130's to be installed in a cabinet for their break-in. reminds me of the old days(D-130 that is).

I'm even afraid of asking what kind of money the "Performance" series would cost me!!!! LOL

ron:bouncy:

mikebake
11-17-2005, 10:31 AM
http://www.pispeakers.com/Vertical_Null_Angles.gif (http://www.pispeakers.com/AES_v31_n6_p408.pdf)

Zilch
11-17-2005, 10:35 AM
Remember, the plane of time-alignment in 4430's is tilted 10 or 15 upward, depending upon where you read; they were designed to sit on the floor.

I've never raised 4430's or 4435's off the floor; the "ear level" seems of little consequence with 100 vertical horns taken in combination with that tilt.

Too much bass? Slide 'em out from the wall a bit....

Lancer
11-17-2005, 10:35 AM
Yeah Lancer, I do know that I now own a piece of history. Without paper documentation of course, but then again a piece of paper is still just paper!Yeah well, Earl was kinda busy cutting wood in his garage for a new project when I showed up to pick up the 2235H's so I held off asking him for any documentation. I had to bang on his aluminum garage door to get him to come to the front door. :D

Lancer
11-17-2005, 10:37 AM
Remember, the plane of time-alignment in 4430's is tilted 10 or 15 upward, depending upon where you read; they were designed to sit on the floor.

I've never raised 4430's or 4435's off the floor; the "ear level" seems of little consequence with 100 vertical horns taken in combination with that tilt.

Too much bass? Slide 'em out from the wall a bit....WRONG! Don't countermand me. :scold:

Zilch
11-17-2005, 10:43 AM
WRONG! Don't countermand me. :scold: Where did you EVER suggest that 4430's should be elevated?

The white papers and tech notes seem to be quite explicit on that issue.

Note: I did NOT say not to do it.... :p

Lancer
11-17-2005, 10:46 AM
Where did you ever suggest that 4430's should be elevated?

The white papers and tech notes seem to be quite explicit on that issue.

Note: I did NOT say not to do it.... :p
Probably never on this forum. :p Or maybe on a previous version of the forum. :)

It really depends on the environment as to how they are set up. You are correct with respect to the plane. I've had to turn more than one pair upsidedown. I've had to build custom stands in other environments.

mikebake
11-17-2005, 10:51 AM
I've never raised 4430's or 4435's off the floor; the "ear level" seems of little consequence with 100 vertical horns taken in combination with that tilt.


I never mentioned the horn; my point with Ron was to avoid floor bounce with the 15. The horn is less problematic. I thought it was fairly easy moving your head around to hear the best integration of the horn.

Ian Mackenzie
11-17-2005, 11:07 AM
From practical experience I think it depends on how close you are to the system and the type surfaces in the near field.

When I heard John Nebel's 4435's we were seated towards the rear of the room, almost "far field". That's a whole different presentation to mid field

Would be nice to see some pics of Ron's setup.

spkrman57
11-17-2005, 11:08 AM
I have to agree with Mike that when on the floor they had a little too much midbass emphasis.

Right now they are too high and I may try for approx 4" off the ground like what I do with my midbass horns so that the only sound that emits is the original sound source, not the room modes coming up and muddy up the sound at approx 250hz.

I have to admit I was quite surprised at the responses that came out after a discussion about how to set up the 4430's. But I will follow the thread and see if I might even learn something new here!

Ron

Mr. Widget
11-17-2005, 11:11 AM
I've had to turn more than one pair upsidedown.
To spank them?:D


Sorry... you guys were getting too serious with all that this angle that angle stuff... then we could discuss listening distance and then there is absolute phase, and on and on.

Why are we still talking about 4430s anyway? Oh yeah it is a 4430 thread... Whatever!
Widget

Ian Mackenzie
11-17-2005, 11:14 AM
Ron,

I recall someone (Lancer?.....) saying the 4430 was tuned a little high for domestic environments and perhaps some tweaking may assist here rather than cause a WAF with sitting them up off the floor.

Suggest you pm Lancer for the details..we don't want this thread to become a tweaker asylum.

Ian

mikebake
11-17-2005, 11:17 AM
I would say that Rons head is nearly nearfield at about 9-12 feet from the front of the horns.

What is the room, Ron, 14x16? And he is firing across the short distance. Again, my experience at home was that they sounded significantly better with the 15 off the floor, and not because of reduction of LF boundary reinforcment. I say get the woofer placement correct, and you can engineer a horn orientation/solution from there.

I like any large format speakers better in large rooms; virtually the larger the better. Show me a room too big. Let the big bass roll................

spkrman57
11-17-2005, 11:23 AM
Much of this material is "old-hat" to you JBL guru's, on the other hand while I understand some basics of sound reporduction and know my basic abc's, I try and pick up all the knowledge I can since these 4430's have been around for over 25 years now and you guys should know all the tricks.

If one of my friends should come by with digital camera and take pics that I could post here I'm sure that would help.

In the interim I can say that my livingroom is small (12' x 16' - 8' ceiling), with my entertainment on top of a coffee table to the left and my pc desk and 28" tv to the right, and currently my 2242 sub is still between the 4430's.

Actually the 4430's are not that much smaller than the sub, GF still wonders why I need all these speakers, especially when they are "refrigerator" sized. I tell her "There is no substitute for cubic inches" !

Ron

mikebake
11-17-2005, 11:30 AM
Actually the 4430's are not that much smaller than the sub, GF still wonders why I need all these speakers, especially when they are "refrigerator" sized. I tell her "There is no substitute for cubic inches" !

Ron
You could start ebaying the basement tmrw. and not be done until the next ice age...........anyway, use the basic setup principles for the 4430 and you won't go much wrong. I think they are fairly easy to implement compared to many designs. To me their best quality was an "ease-to-listen-to" kinda thing. Nothing jumpy, just pretty smooth and impressive for a two way. I got to respecting the upper-mid/vocal quality more as time went on. And, for a weak attempt to get back closer to the topic, there are places I'd rather have a 4430 than the 250 to listen to. Think mid size beer hall.

Titanium Dome
11-17-2005, 01:40 PM
I currently have my 4430s in a 20'x28'x12' room (my office) along with a B380 sub. Taking some of the low end responsibility off the 4430s was a way to make the overall LF performance more to my liking. I tried the speakers at different heights relative to my seated position and found 3" to work well in this environment. I think the 12' ceilings and the 16' distance from the speakers to me account for the needed rise to take care of some reflections.

The largest positive gain was in the midbass rather than in the midrange and HF. The horns do an adequate job at a wide range of elevations, but the 2235s benefit in my case from having a little more space on all close boundaries, including the floor.

I'd imagine in your room things will be quite different.