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jpb_dk
11-08-2005, 03:38 AM
Hi guys
can someone please post me ideas to a guitar-speaker stack ?
I would like to build a speaker for my guitar tube-amp.
The idea is ofcource a mix of good sound and a "outstanding testosteron smelling inverse waf-factor speaker". It shall look and sound a bit brutal and dirty *lol*

Maby a 4x"12 is not even enough any longer but thats what i had in mind. (ofcourse including build-in bottle opener)
I know that Fender used some JBL's and Marshal use Celestion. I really dont care about what the name is as long as it sounds good, and smells a little bit ugly.

Why... ? Well i miss building speakers like i did before, and like to spend some extra money on building it myself while laughing and drinking beers with friends and tell silly jokes. - is that so bad ? To me its just back to the beginning.

I like to see what ideas you guys with stage and studio experience can bring out.

Thanks
Jens

boputnam
11-08-2005, 07:20 AM
Hey, Jens...

I will disappoint you, but my ideal "stack" is one 10" or 12" K-series driver in a tube-driven cabinet. Sorry - but even that can overpower the sound at FOH and complicate giving a good mix to the audience.

Last two shows I engineered were just that way. So, I merely tried to keep the guitar in the mix for recording purposes, but it was a struggle to keep the vocals audible for the audience. At one club, the lead guitar was +110dB off the amp - there was no way to safely get any vocals above that. Complaining did no good... :(

I think Kantner was >120dB at FOH, two weeks ago. I was backstage and just know it was screaming loud there. He was using two twin's angled toward each other. Wonderful "Starship" sound, but deafening.

The Tommy Castro band, a local bay-area rocker, puts his old Fender Reverb and his rhythm guitar players amps completely inside a dog-house, and stuffs a mic front and rear (out-of-phase). For "looks", they put grill cloth onto the front of the doghouse! There is almost no amp sound coming off front of stage. They all wear IEM's and have a great mix in the house. If only others would "listen"...

Anyway, I've soiled your thread. Sorry friend. At least the part about the K-series is useful!! They're THE BEST!! :yes:

pelly3s
11-08-2005, 07:27 AM
4 k120's with a 50 watt plexi ripped wide open. that has to be one of my favorite sounds ever. I try to convince every guitar player i work with to either put a sheet of plexi glass in front of their cab or use a power attenuator

johnaec
11-08-2005, 07:32 AM
I'm with Bo on this one. Even a single K120 cab play deafiningly, (sp?), loud. And I personally prefer point source - with 4 speakers, you get all these little interferences, depending where you are on stage...

John

Hamilton
11-08-2005, 07:53 AM
Sorry Jens, but no matter how hard you try you'll never exceed the reputation of these :


http://vintageamps.com/va/carls_amps/marshalls3.jpg

Hamilton
11-08-2005, 07:58 AM
At one club, the lead guitar was +110dB off the amp - there was no way to safely get any vocals above that. Complaining did no good... http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/frown.gif
Hey Bo, maybe you already know this but a way to get a loud guitar player to turn down is to bring his guitar up in his own monitor, to the point where he can't stand it.......they will usually turn down. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif

Fred Sanford
11-08-2005, 08:13 AM
Haven't used JBLs much for guitar (other than bass), so I can't share much there other than 2 E120s in a Fender Super Twin is too f'in heavy and too f'in loud.

My 2 favorite setups are a single Celestion 65 12" in a open back cabinet and a Marshall 1960 4x12 slant closed back also with Celestion 65s. Having done years of FOH (including the Ramones: intestinal-rearranging stage volume), I know what the stage volume issues are, but that cabinet as it's set up is the sound I'm going for, I'm sure there are many factors interacting to achieve that.

Celestion 65s are getting very very hard to find, here's something that might be an option:

https://weberspeakerscom.secure.powweb.com/weber/1230-55f.htm (https://weberspeakerscom.secure.powweb.com/weber/1230-55f.htm)


I've also liked Mesa Boogie halfbacks, with 2 x 12"s open back and 2 x 12"s closed back (EV and Celestion respectively, I think). Nice mix of tones.

je

boputnam
11-08-2005, 08:14 AM
Hey, Hamilton...

Yea, that sometimes will do it, but anyone in the spray off that monitor whines, too (like the bass player...). Plus, when tried, it ALL ends too loud on-stage. But we are hijacking this thread...

jpb_dk
11-08-2005, 08:35 AM
Guys thanks for Your feedback, funny pics, spoiling my day..... :blink:

First of all it should ofcourse sound good, and as its a "build-your-self" having fun project there should also be room for some "bad-ass attitude"..

But i see Your point Bo, then please tell me why fender and marshall make 4x12 if its not the way to go ? Is it just "marketing" and power-wank ?

If one or two K's are the way to go, i like to hear about some cabinet-eksamples.
(Its for my music-room at the farmhouse where a few guys and I have fun playing blues/rock and sometimes recording to make it extra fun, not for stage)

Thanks
Jens

NB: For those of You who need schematics for tube amp i have posted a very interesting link under "off-topics". Enjoy.

Oldmics
11-08-2005, 08:47 AM
Bo says

"I think Kantner was >120dB at FOH, two weeks ago."

and that was just his acoustic guitar !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :banghead:

Fred Sanford says " Having done years of FOH (including the Ramones: intestinal-rearranging stage volume), "

We used to take bets on which corner Dee Dee was gonna throw up in when we did them at "Hammerjacks". I can feel your pain my brother!

I say.

You know how to get a guitar player to turn down?

Put SHEET MUSIC in front of him.

Oldmics-Les Paul with a wire plugged into the Marshall and the cabinet facing the player.

Fred Sanford
11-08-2005, 11:17 AM
Probably as loud as the Ramones: when I was starting to bow out of the touring thing in '90 or so, I was offered (but passed up) 2 tours- one was FOH for Prong, touring with Voivod and Soundgarden. The other was guitar tech for Kix, opening for Whitesnake with Vai and Vandenberg. Thems woulda been loud, too, but bigger venues. The Ramones thing was sound pressure, it really was unbearable to my body to be on that stage.

Husker Du was loud in a different way, just a barrage of guitar- he used Fender Deluxes as pre-amps, into Yamaha G100s & 4x12"s.

Compare that to what I saw with The Fixx, what a pro that guitarist was (Jamie?). Very complex rig, but very very consistent and a genuinely nice guy to us (I did FOH for an opening band on their Calm Animals tour). Completely different style, he was constantly aware of how he & the whole band sounded to the house.

je

Whuh? Huh? Heh?

Fred Sanford
11-08-2005, 11:24 AM
To answer the actual original question, if it's for wanking in a warehouse I'd look into the Mesa Boogie Halfback design- half open back (loose & messy & lots of sound heading back towards the drummer) half closed back (nice tight controlled bass). Industrial steel grille, big enough openings so they could easily be used for bottle openers.

http://63.243.93.163/images/photos/b_8730630873079_1.jpg

http://www.andersonguitargallery.com/Amps/212Halfback.html
je

Zilch
11-08-2005, 11:28 AM
Build a HUGE stack and put one K110 in each box.


Heh, heh.

According to the lit, JBL MI drivers not supposed to be used in open-back enclosures.

E-Series, at least.

Actually, this little 2 x 10" mini-scoop is purty killer when loaded with JBL's.

Got recessed handles on the sides for two to carry, too... :D

It's wired for either mono or stereo chorus:

[Hinged cover is long lost, alas.... :( ]

Should I put D110F's or E110-8's in it?

Fred Sanford
11-08-2005, 12:16 PM
Ah, see, now that does remind me of JBLs with guitar. We built these refrigerator-sized reflex cabinets (2x12s firing backwards into a triangular baffle that bounced the sound up & down to angled corners which bounced the sound out the front), loaded them with E120s and played Marshalls and Sunns and Randalls and HiWatts and lots of other beasts into them. Tough to describe, I'd have to sketch them. Not sure how sound the physics were, but they sure threw the sound to the back of the hall. Then (here's the funner part) I made scale versions for these 4" 40W JBL commercial series full-range drivers that I liked (8110?), and played guitar through them- loads of fun. Still have two of the 8110's in a small cabinet, can't kill 'em.

je

Tom Loizeaux
11-08-2005, 05:25 PM
As I'm sure you all know, guitar amplification is all about "tone". "Tone" being thick, punchy, bright, distorted sound that makes one think the amp and speakers are about to blow up! This lends an "ergency" to the music, I suppose.
If you want that "modern" rock sound, then a classic Marshall tube head is a great start. Celestions seem to be a great combination with that head. You don't need eight of them, but a couple of Celestion 12s will fill any club.

I prefer the tone of vintage Fender amps. Though vintage style speakers reproduce the "original" Fender sound and do sound great, JBLs can also be very enjoyable with these amps.

Tom

edgewound
11-08-2005, 06:18 PM
Build a HUGE stack and put one K110 in each box.


Heh, heh.

According to the lit, JBL MI drivers not supposed to be used in open-back enclosures.

E-Series, at least
Sure they can. I use one like in my avatar, E120-8, in a 1x12 combo. The lit says to de-rate the power handling by half to compensate for greater excursion.

If ya got 'em Zilch, use D110F for a little less mid, and a smidge higher "cool factor"...otherwise either one can kill small animals at close range

boputnam
11-08-2005, 06:33 PM
Sure they can.ibid...

Got one in my Fender Blues Jr. for my bullet harp mic, and a K120 in my MotionSound Pro-145 leslie wanna-be. Nice...

Zilch
11-08-2005, 06:46 PM
Thanks, guys, I'll clean it up and reload it.

Don't know if Mitchell (Riverside, CA, it says) is still in business, but this is one heckofa solid little box.

Be fun to see what the RTA says about it.... :)

boputnam
11-08-2005, 07:24 PM
Thanks, guys, I'll clean it up and reload it.I'll bet you've got a REAL keeper there! :yes:

The D-, E-, and K-series were / are enormous favorites in guitar amps. Just "mind the gap" as London'ers would say. Don't get that voicecoil to jump-the-gap, or you get a new project as reward... :biting:

jpb_dk
11-08-2005, 11:44 PM
Guys i appriciate all the comments given and all that by your experience "in business"

What a forum !! :applaud:


Bo mentioned a leslie "wanna-be", guess it means a "copy" or "doit-yourself".
Do any of You have drawings and idears for a little "leslie-project" either to include in my first speaker-projekt, that now have been reduced to one or maby two JBL's, or a second project after.

Its really greate to see all the replys with diffrent angles, please go on. Damned i have forgot how greate and fun it is to plann a small project like this

Jens

Tom Loizeaux
11-09-2005, 05:59 AM
...Don't know if Mitchell (Riverside, CA, it says) is still in business, but this is one heckofa solid little box.

No, Mitchell went out of business many years ago. They did built some nice stuff and their cabinet design and construction was tops! They used sand in the cabinet finishing and coated the insides with fiberglass resin, producing a solid, tight, high-efffiency cabinet. The catalogue says that

"Twelve pounds of sand are hand-packed into the cabinet to eliminate harmonics. The special port design and sand-damping incorpotated into the GM 2-10 double its audio output."

Tom

boputnam
11-09-2005, 06:55 AM
Bo mentioned a leslie "wanna-be", guess it means a "copy" or "doit-yourself".

No, it's the latest in the series of new generation rotating speakers from Motion Sound.

Product Features


12AX7 pre amp with 20% auto bias
Two inputs, Pre and Post 12AX7 gain controls
Contour allows bass or treble cut before 12AX7
Auto tube bias adjustable trim varies tube overdrive harmonics
Bass, mid, treble, variable point high freq


Product Description
Product Description:
The PRO-145 provides real dual rotor professional level sound quality and features in a very portable and rugged single cabinet amplifier. Virtually all parameters are easily adjustable allowing tuning of the PRO-145 to your unique sound. The PRO-145 provides the lush 360 degree sound experience unique to dual rotor speakers and amplifiers. When combined with a classic tone wheel Organ or new digital tone wheel Organ the total incredible classic sound is re-created with modern technology.

Product Details


Product Dimensions: 70.0 pounds

Oldmics
11-09-2005, 08:22 AM
Hey Bo

An Harmonica thru a Leslie :blink: :blink: :blink:

Perhaps your ticket to Fame.

Never heard one done that way.

Oldmics

SteveW
11-09-2005, 09:30 AM
I spent 35 years trying to get a grip on 'Tone' and it went like this...

60's and 70's.... Ignored the pissed off FOH guys, band members, and most everybody else within audible range. Didn't care either. Turning down just killed tone and dynamics, and that precious 'bubbly-bouncy' thing was gone. I was convinced that moving a large volume of air was a huge factor too.

80's.... Funny how just a couple of impromptu FOH experiences will make you realize that guitar players are ignorant creatures- it's the whole picture stupid. This, along with an inspiration to be a studio operator (damn those 4435's) made me embark on a mission to solve all the problems.

90's.... Still on mission.

Now.... mission accomplished! Guitars all have three pickups with individual outputs. Each pickup feeds it's own preamp. Preamps do vary a bit, but my units of choice are Stevenson's copys of the Alembic F2B, the Egnator modular stuff or offsprings, and Rocktron Prophesy digital jobs. Preamp outputs feed cranked VHT 2-50-2 power amps. Set one on class A, one on class B, and the other anyway you want. Feed these outputs to Groove Tubes SE11 speaker simulators. I've tried all the other soaks - including that early Palmer, but the cool thing about the GT units is the EQ section is superb and it's purposely voiced to a celestion blue. Anyway, we are back to line-level now, and the signals contain a living-breathing dynamic bombast from all the pre and power amp sections. With the Prophesy, go back into it's loop, swim about in all the midi-programmable quality effects you would ever require, and exit the main outs in stereo. The others can go to an effects box of choice or run them dry. DI each output to FOH. Run a monitor matrix back to stage that's facing you using Bo's 'ideal stack' or IEM's. Buy up a bunch of empty cabs off E-bay and stack them behind you along with a couple of your blow'd up Marshall heads.

The FOH guy now has some serious artillery to work with, and will become your friend - along with everyone else. The SE11's also have 50% power outputs, and you can feed these to some K's stuffed into those empty cabs for an alternative monitor mix.

Any tone you wish, the guitar sings in harmonic distortion, and it's truly alive and dynamic - at any volume.

Two channels of this works just fine too BTW.
Job done.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/applaud.gif

boputnam
11-09-2005, 10:11 AM
An Harmonica thru a Leslie :blink: :blink: :blink: Doh!! That's my syntax error, dood - or simply leaving parts out!

I play a Hammond XB-2 through that Pro-145. It's the first-generation of single-rank keyboards offered by Hammond. It only does B3, with drawbars and all.

I've tried the Roland VK-8 - everybody's fav, but the tone just doesn't "get me there". You cannot emulate a Leslie without true doppler effect of the rotating horns.

The Pro-145 has improved preamps over earlier versions, and gets a nice distortion growl. Motion Sound alleviated the nagging GL between their earliest models and the XB-2, and also moved all the rotor adjustment to the front face (rather than leaving them on the internal PCB's!!! :blink: ). They've mounted some "large" diaphram mic elements in the cabinet, but there's too much rotor noise for me - sticking with the dual (or triple) SM57's, baby.

All I gotta do is learn to play better... :o:

Earl K
11-09-2005, 10:15 AM
Nice post SteveW ,

- As an ex power-hungry guitar man ( 70's ) , I really appreciate it . I too leapt off the stage and ended up at the FOH side of things. That made me realize what a duffus I had been. Still love Hendrix though / no one should be forced to give up their prized "harmonic overload" :p

- Though I haven't seen my old strat in decades ( no kidding ) I know where it is. I had an Alembic preamp installed in around 76/77 . I have no idea about its' model number.

- Maybe now is a good time to get back into electric guitar.

- I'll have to bookmark this thread for reference . :D

boputnam
11-09-2005, 10:22 AM
Hey, SteveW...

Many thanks for taking the time to post that - the entire history is not unque to you, although your solution surely is!! "Sounds" great. Super post, especially from the view of a FOH guy...

Any chance I can get a guitar player I work with, to email you...? Pretty please...? :p

Oldmics
11-09-2005, 12:14 PM
Originally Posted by Oldmics
An Harmonica thru a Leslie :blink: :blink: :blink:
Doh!! That's my syntax error, dood - or simply leaving parts out!

No error! I am saying TRY IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

It could be ultimate tone.Its one that I"ve never heard,encountered or thought about.

Try it and let us know.

Oldmics

edgewound
11-09-2005, 02:41 PM
Hi SteveW...

Your solution sounds fine for the "money and roadies-is-no-object-arena tour" setup...but for the weekend casual/club player? A little much for me. I've been playing for 30+ years and have settled on a couple of different guitar rigs that suit me fine. A Rivera Knucklehead 55 with (1) E120-8 and a Marshall JMP 2x12 combo with (2) EVM12L. I had a very competent young FOH for a city concert comment he had never seen plexiglass used in front of an amp before....he loved it...problem solved...he had control out front...I kept my tone...everyone happy.

I've become disappointed with the sterile sound of guitars on recordings anymore. The direct approach has sucked all the life and character out of the guitarist/guitar/amp/speaker combination. The modeling preamps have done the same. Why should a guitarist develop his own sound and feel when he/she can buy a box that sounds like SRV or VanHalen....Eddie VanHalen doesn't even sound like himself after going the direct route....so much art/feel has been lost to digital and/or electronics technology for the sake of expediency....any way....my point is...from a guitar players point of view that wants to work with and not against the FOH guy....the FOH guy should be able to offer simple solutions that work....and so should the musician...without breaking his back or the bank.

Thanks for listening....glad you found your solution.

SteveW
11-09-2005, 03:22 PM
Thanks for the kind words guys. Can't take credit for the configuration however, as it's just a slightly mutated, multiplied conglomeration of what I thought made each of these basic rigs famous -----

EVH: Tube Pre-amp/tube power-amp/load/SS power-amps/guitar cabs.
Robben Ford: Dumble (hot fender) tube pre-amp/effect/tube power-amp/guitar cab.
Gilmour (live): Effects, Alembic F2B pre-amp, tube power-amp, guitar/rotating cabs.
SRV: A hundred glowing tubes and speaker coils.
Early Ted: Just a glowing Gibson to a wall of Fenders best stuff ever.

The best part is being able to layer clean and dirty simultaniously - ala Al Jardine intro to Fun Fun Fun, and most SRV. On-the-fly blending via volume pedals is really a marvelous tone manipulator. Adding a variable delay to all of this (using a pedal controller to Prophesy) is heaven because you get to manipulate phase cancellation acoustically, rather than electronically. Resultant flange is such that its almost hard to hit a bad note, yet it doesn't sound like your running the effect at all - no matter where your at in the room. Delay a straight 30ms or so and it's chunkville city. Stranglehold's a riot to play when you can do stuff like loop and blend in that song-long feedback.

Issues to consider:

Re-amping this rig has too many possibilities for one guy's lifetime

Prepare for a universe of ground loops. Balanced power proved to be the proper solution - along with a few Jensens.

Mr. Boputnam ..... ck PM for E-mail address

SteveW
11-09-2005, 03:37 PM
Edgewound, I agree with ya 100% !!!!!!

Yes sir, it took a long time and more than a few bucks...but we were kinda talking about various attempts at one's 'ideal stack'. I admit that I should seek help.

I would not do this again, and if I was do something again I would duplicate your rig to the bone. Dollar for dollar I'm screamin' uncle. Zero practicality too, it's trapped in the studio for life.

edgewound
11-09-2005, 04:13 PM
From SteveW

...and the signals contain a living-breathing dynamic bombast from all the pre and power amp sections.



...and isn't that what the guitar playing experience is all about? Yeah baby....ya gotta experience it to appreciate it...an exquisite escape from the toils of everyday life....nice exchange SteveW...thanks:applaud:

jaybird
11-09-2005, 04:53 PM
To control the volume on stage, especially in 8 piece horn bands I used a stereo volume pedal between my jmp1, pearce, or boogie studio (too farty in the low end) pre-amp and a marshall 9005 tube power amp thru bagend styled single 12's with either evm's, k-120, or classic lead 80,s

Fred Sanford
11-09-2005, 05:53 PM
Ah, Jaybird is a Pearce player. Whattaya got?

je

Pearce G1 (R&D mule, they kept sending me amps to test, I kept making suggestions, when they went to the G2 I got to keep the very modded G1. No labelling or SN# on the back plate at all, and a bunch of the labelling on the front is technically wrong, now, too)

Pearce G1 (made for Frank Marino, then sold to & modded for CC DeVille, then made its way to my house & got modded some more...not quite there yet for my tastes)

1x12" combo cabinet w/2RU

p.s. Steve, if you like Robben Ford's tone, have you listened to Jeff Golub at all? Love his attack & tone. I'm told Robben Ford uses the Celestion 65s I use, too.

morbo!
11-09-2005, 08:52 PM
I suppose some peole here,
Would really dislike the fact that i am using k-120`s for hifi.
Scary sometimes ,If you listening to a tune you haven`t listented to before on this speaker .
They can take you from blissfull unawareness to the edge of you chair.
But trumpet,vocals,guitar sound soooo cool though`em :D

I think u can hear the diffrence when the particular speaker was used for the recording
U never heard neil young`s pocohontus till i heard it through the k`s
dont know if a k was used but i think so

SteveW
11-09-2005, 09:44 PM
Fred.... is he the 'Cut the Cake' guy? Gear?

Edgewound..... yep, this new modeling stuff is a plague to me - just like the music. Went south to visit the 15 YO nephew. Couldn't wait to show me his new 'coolest amp you can get'. It was a 2 lb. Line 6 flexiplexi (or something like that) complete with a blows-me-too shapeform assumptor panel. It's got chicken knobs.........perfect. Couldn't help but start up a rant about how 'musically sheltered' one could be these days and threw out ''You know that these cheesy computers aren't really meant for music, and there's some good stuff if you look past CMT and VH1''. He says "Yea, I know - but my computer sounds great, just wait till I get this ipod hooked up!"

Anyway, he's jammin away on this $500.00 guitar rig, and girls are hangin' round to see the band. None of them care about knowing any better either. There's just gotta be an army of these stratpacked-in-a-box wielders out there.

It could get worse you know - perhaps a pandemic spread of wall-wart powered amps is just around the corner.

Now that I think of it, my first guitar was a plastic 'Emeny' or something, and had a permanent cord leading to this computer speaker lookin' battery powered amp. Certainly, that was my 'ideal stack' at the time, and if some used-up old-timer tried to tell me I was musically sheltered I'd have just handed him a hit of mesc.

edgewound
11-10-2005, 11:55 AM
Fred.... is he the 'Cut the Cake' guy? Gear?

Edgewound..... yep, this new modeling stuff is a plague to me - just like the music. Went south to visit the 15 YO nephew. Couldn't wait to show me his new 'coolest amp you can get'. It was a 2 lb. Line 6 flexiplexi (or something like that) complete with a blows-me-too shapeform assumptor panel. It's got chicken knobs.........perfect. Couldn't help but start up a rant about how 'musically sheltered' one could be these days and threw out ''You know that these cheesy computers aren't really meant for music, and there's some good stuff if you look past CMT and VH1''. He says "Yea, I know - but my computer sounds great, just wait till I get this ipod hooked up!"

Anyway, he's jammin away on this $500.00 guitar rig, and girls are hangin' round to see the band. None of them care about knowing any better either. There's just gotta be an army of these stratpacked-in-a-box wielders out there.

It could get worse you know - perhaps a pandemic spread of wall-wart powered amps is just around the corner.

Now that I think of it, my first guitar was a plastic 'Emeny' or something, and had a permanent cord leading to this computer speaker lookin' battery powered amp. Certainly, that was my 'ideal stack' at the time, and if some used-up old-timer tried to tell me I was musically sheltered I'd have just handed him a hit of mesc.

Dude....I had the same plastic toy starter guitar you did!!! Spent hours raking the strings to "Last Train to Clarksville"...Those were the good ol days:applaud:

Zilch
11-10-2005, 10:05 PM
It's got "tone." ;)

I dunno. What's a guitar box s'posed to look like on RTA?

Let's SEE 'em RTA's folks!

This one "rings" around G5+.

Middle C = C4

[We're in "Technical," right? :p ]

edgewound
11-11-2005, 11:25 AM
It's got "tone." ;)

I dunno. What's a guitar box s'posed to look like on RTA?

Let's SEE 'em RTA's folks!

This one "rings" around G5+.

Middle C = C4

[We're in "Technical," right? :p ]

Hey Zilch....Nice. As far as RTA on guitar? Well...how much salt do you like on your fries? It's ALL a matter of taste. That sand cab must weigh 70 pounds!

Zilch
11-11-2005, 11:58 AM
It's got removable ports to put in the sand, like Jean showed us for his crossovers.

The sand is in the 45 beveled corners that make the scoop, top and bottom of the rear.

65# with these E110's in it.

Maybe I put some wheels on.

[Looks like an owl. Perfect for barn-wankin'.... :p ]

Zilch
11-12-2005, 11:41 PM
Seems like havin' it in the top and bottom rear corners wouldn't dampen much.

More like "ballast." :p