AudioControl RTA question

[andresohc]

I have been looking for decent RTA for a couple of years. Primarily an Audiocontrol 3050A. There is a 3050 on ebay now
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5824998560&fromMakeTrack=true

What could I expect to pay for a microphone for this and how hard would it be to find one. Also is there anything else needed to go with this I would have to purchase. I think a few forumites have something similar.

[boputnam]

Hey, Andre...

Pricing is an eBay question, although any suitable reference mic will work, fine. Earthworks has some great models, but they can be pricy.

AudioControl works great, and once saved a show for me (that is for the the bands...) where I was there as audience and happened to have it in the truck, but where the house soundguy didn't show-up!! :biting:

(edited down to a more relevant response...)

[Oldmics]

You have to go to Audio Control to get there mics.I don"t remember the cost.Just give em a call.

I have never seen just the mic on eBay (not that stranger things havent shown up)
Any flat reference mic will do the analyazation function.Only the Audio Control mic will allow the readout of the CORRECT sound pressure level.

Oldmics (I gotta blue LED one!!!!)

Oh yeah,See if the batterys are OK inside the unit as these can be pricy to replace.

[Ken Pachkowsky]

These are a very good unit, I own 2 of them. At 400.00 BIN it would be a bargain with the mic. Without a mic it’s an ok price. The printer port is useless unless you need it. If all you’re using it for is setting up a permanent room ya don't need the battery pack or the printer port.



Now, for 400.00 I would buy the PAA3. This is an fantastic tool. Steve Schell tried mine and immediately went out and got 2 of them.



http://cgi.ebay.com/Phonic-PAA3-Pro-Audio-Analyzer-USB-Interface-AWESOME_W0QQitemZ7362670201QQcategoryZ47094QQssPag eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/Phonic-PAA3-Pro-Audio-Analyzer-USB-Interface-AWESOME_W0QQitemZ7362670201QQcategoryZ47094QQssPag eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)



I never use the 3050A any more. This tool will amaze you. You can walk into a venue, run pink noise through the mains and take 5-10 measurements from different locations saving them to memory. Then you tag those memory locations and tell the unit to average them. It then allows you to store that result in another memory setting and immediately displays the +- db settings for every 1/3 octave from 20 to 20k.



Just set your 1/3 octave eq to what it says. Done in 5 minutes.



Fine tune by running one more analysis.

Ken

[Don Mascali]

I have to place an add here for the Behringer DEQ-2496. It has a 61 band RTA and uses FFT. The price is nice (the mic lists for $80) and can be had for $300;

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/search/detail/base_id/106326

Although many members look down at it, many of us use it. The RTA alone is worth the price and it has many other features that are helpful even if you don't leave it in the signal path permanently.

No I don't work for them.http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[morbo!]

what about software solution?

[boputnam]

(edited down to a more relevant response...)RE: software...

Yea, that's why I edited this down. I went off on a lovefest about SmaartLIVE, but that's not what Andre was asking about...

[andresohc]

I would love a computer solution, but it seems to cost more, and is not portable (i dont have a notebook) My needs are pretty simple, and portability pretty important. I will probably wait and look for a 3050 with a mike. It seems there havent been as many on ebay lately... If any forumites have one laying around they have replaced with something better, I could be talked out of some JBL stuff in trade:) PM me if interested.

To do my 4345 inspired (2122s, 2425/2308/2307, 2405)center channel project I am going to need one. I have everything else to triamp but as previously pointed out on other threads, setting it up by tin ear would defeat the purpose.


RE: software...

Yea, that's why I edited this down. I went off on a lovefest about SmaartLIVE, but that's not what Andre was asking about...

[morbo!]

thanks for that smaartlive suggestion bo
I been playin with it since 5 am this morning am comming to grips with it now
(I think)
I would like to see some screen shots from other people who run this program just to get a handle on exactly where i should be trying to hit.

p.s for the price of the demo i would buy a cheap lappy and load win 98 up once a month

[andresohc]

What about the PAA2? They are on ebay now. Anyone have experience with them?

http://cgi.ebay.com/PHONIC-PAA2-Personal-Audio-Analyzer-RTA-SPL-was-299_W0QQitemZ7558841770QQcategoryZ25423QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem


These are a very good unit, I own 2 of them. At 400.00 BIN it would be a bargain with the mic. Without a mic it’s an ok price. The printer port is useless unless you need it. If all you’re using it for is setting up a permanent room ya don't need the battery pack or the printer port.



Now, for 400.00 I would buy the PAA3. This is an fantastic tool. Steve Schell tried mine and immediately went out and got 2 of them.



http://cgi.ebay.com/Phonic-PAA3-Pro-Audio-Analyzer-USB-Interface-AWESOME_W0QQitemZ7362670201QQcategoryZ47094QQssPag eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/Phonic-PAA3-Pro-Audio-Analyzer-USB-Interface-AWESOME_W0QQitemZ7362670201QQcategoryZ47094QQssPag eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)



I never use the 3050A any more. This tool will amaze you. You can walk into a venue, run pink noise through the mains and take 5-10 measurements from different locations saving them to memory. Then you tag those memory locations and tell the unit to average them. It then allows you to store that result in another memory setting and immediately displays the +- db settings for every 1/3 octave from 20 to 20k.



Just set your 1/3 octave eq to what it says. Done in 5 minutes.



Fine tune by running one more analysis.

Ken

[boputnam]

I would like to see some screen shots from other people who run this program just to get a handle on exactly where i should be trying to hit.
Dunno if that's helpful...

When wired properly and running the "Transfer" function (FFT), strive to get the line flat as possible. But, ensure you adjusted for / modelled the time-delay you're measuring. As well, do not ignore "Coherence", as that guides to what portions of the audio spectrum are even workable/salvagable...

I've found that after a proper and effective Transfer curve is achieved, the RTA curve will "resemble" that achieved after using pink noise. A frequency response curve that gently decreases with increasing frequency. Interesting...

Anyway, back to Andre.

[andresohc]

From what I can see it doesnt have USB connectivity (RS232 only?) The auction is up in an hour. I am going to jump in on it.

[boputnam]

No mention of USB...

From their website:

Features :

31-band Real Time Spectrum Analyzer
Built-in calibrated measurement microphone
Sound Pressure Level Meter from 30dB~130dB
Line signal measurement display in dBu, dBV, or Voltage
A, C weighting or flat
3 level range selection for dB SPL and line signal
Line signal measuring range:
dBu = -50 ~ +40dBu
dBV= -52 ~ +38dBV
Volts = 5mV ~ +80V
Maximum level display
Peak hold display
4 standard response times: 35ms, 125ms (F), 250ms (M), 1sec (S)
10 memories for measurement and 6 for average calculation
31-band EQ setting level display (boost/cut)
160 x 160 graphic display with back light and contrast adjustment
Phase checker
SPL meter Calibration through sound level calibrator (eg: B & K Type 4231)
Noise generator with pink noise, 1K Hz and polarity test signal, balanced output
Low power consumption for over 4 hours continuous operation with 4 AA size alkaline batteries (Adapter power supply operation available. When power is used from adapter, it automatically cuts off battery power)
3 power modes: (1) Power saving mode: Auto Off- when none of the buttons has been pressed for 15 minutes (2) Manual Off (3) Off
XLR input and output sockets
RS232 communication port, for simultaneous operation through laptop or PC
One CD-ROM with audio test signals and software for PC

[andresohc]

Couldnt one use an audio spectrum analyzer and a calibrated mic instead of an RTA? If you did would you need a preamp for the mic? I have always thought spectrum anyalyzers are about the coolest piece of test equipment I could aspire to. My read is that it might be much more flexible and useful for other fun projects:bouncy:

[johnaec]

Couldnt one use an audio spectrum analyzer and a calibrated mic instead of an RTA?Isn't an RTA just another audio spectrum analyzer, or are you talking something real sophisticated, like CLIO or SMAART?

John

[andresohc]

Spectrum analyzers like HP or Textronix used to be the ticket when I was a radio frequency tech in the late 80s. They look like a really sophisticated O scope and they used to be very expensive. HP made a nice audio freq spectrum analyzer with a built in sweep generator and digital storage. But I dont think they are real time like an RTA. I dont think this would effect setting up a room for audio, but I dont know.

[boputnam]

...I dont think they are real time like an RTA. That is the difference. RTA is dynamic, and enables one to analyze the room behavior real-time, during the show. Incredibly powerful. Feedback is increasingly rare, for this FOH roaddog...

[andresohc]

I took your advice (at least some of it:D ) and bought a PAA2 like new off Ebay for $200. Great little instrument. Now I will be able to dial in the center channel I am building when I triamp. I started construction on my 2122h-2425+2307+2308/2405h-2122h center channel knowing the PAA2 was coming. Eventually I want to build a passive but for now the thought of being able dial it in got me off my butt and into a pile of MDF dust. I am watching eagerly Ians thread on the 4344 crossover.
Thanks for the help Ken

These are a very good unit, I own 2 of them. At 400.00 BIN it would be a bargain with the mic. Without a mic it’s an ok price. The printer port is useless unless you need it. If all you’re using it for is setting up a permanent room ya don't need the battery pack or the printer port.

[duaneage]

I took your advice (at least some of it:D ) and bought a PAA2 like new off Ebay for $200. Great little instrument. Now I will be able to dial in the center channel I am building when I triamp. I started construction on my 2122h-2425+2307+2308/2405h-2122h center channel knowing the PAA2 was coming. Eventually I want to build a passive but for now the thought of being able dial it in got me off my butt and into a pile of MDF dust. I am watching eagerly Ians thread on the 4344 crossover.
Thanks for the help Ken

Was this the seller

http://cgi.ebay.com/Phonic-PAA2-Handheld-Audio-Analyzer_W0QQitemZ7347281553QQcategoryZ3278QQssPag eNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[andresohc]

No, I gave him a best offer in the area of my final bid price but he rejected it and then he didnt allow second best offers, thats okay because the one I got couldnt be in better condition if it was new and I spent 100 lest. Very happy with it. I think he only had one.

[Ken Pachkowsky]

I took your advice (at least some of it:D ) and bought a PAA2 like new off Ebay for $200.
Thanks for the help Ken

Your more than welcome. It's damned handy thats for sure. I rarely use my Audio Control 3051 any more.

The one I would realy like to have is the IVIE 33. Got to play with one for an hour at a studio in LA last month and was very impressed. They run about 1800 bucks though and do more than just RTA work. You can run real time plots on them etc etc.....pretty cool. They are an old company with a very good reputation. My uncle used one back in the early seventies for setting up sound systems in churches. It was a model 30-A or something like that. Hard to find used and generaly hold there value very well. I missed one on Ebay last week for a little over 800. It was a bargain.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Andre,


Nice to hear/see you are progressing with your neato 4344 centre channel.

The passive crossover thing should be reasonably straight forward provided the component orientation on the baffle is similar to stock 4344/ 4345.

Can you post a pic of your baffle please

I might even make one myself ..5.1 does not always mix down well into stereo..I had thought what you have desribed actually.

When I get over there next I must come over a see what you've been up to.

Cheers

Ian

:cheers:

[Mike Caldwell]

Hello

Here is a link http://www.allen-heath.co.uk/US/ViewProductdownloads.asp?search=Real%20Time%20Anal yser from Allen & Heath for a downloadable RTA. It has a 14 day free trial and then is about $10 to register. I have never used it but people who have say it works well.

Mike Caldwell

[andresohc]

My first design is kinda simple and straightforward. I know I may be setting myself up for some less then desirable lobbing on the 2122Hs but for packaging and size requirements I am going to try it this way initially and see if I can live with it. I am going to mount it high above the center line of the side speakers which also may be a problem with boundary stuff but I figured I would start cutting MDF and let the dust land where it does. I have these newly reconed 2122hs, newly diaphragmed 2425 and 2405 I have to get listening to. I assumed since it was well above ear height it was best to position the 2405 on the bottom. I am not sure how to build a grill that wont interfere with the dispersion of the tweeter and especially the be-lensed 2307. Anyway if there is an interest on this I could start a new thread.

[andresohc]

Of course my photos didnt upload, next try...

[duaneage]

No, I gave him a best offer in the area of my final bid price but he rejected it and then he didnt allow second best offers, thats okay because the one I got couldnt be in better condition if it was new and I spent 100 lest. Very happy with it. I think he only had one.

I will watch and wait on his auction since there is not ending date. He might soften up a bit in a week or two.

[Steve Schell]

The only real difference between a PAA2 and PAA3 is that the PAA2 uses a slower connection than USB to transfer measurements into a computer, and it cannot make RT60 reverberation decay measurements. So far I have only fooled with the RT60 feature once, and rarely input measurements to the computer.

I have used the PAA3 more in the past three months than I used my LMS in the last four years. It is a tremendously handy, versatile tool that is very useful for balancing a system, fiddling with crossover slopes and levels, and analyzing what the room is doing to sabotage the system. Its relatively low level of resolution compared to a sophisticated measurement system seems to correlate well with the way we actually hear things. I recommend either of these devices highly.