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Dutchman
11-01-2005, 08:19 AM
Does anybody know/heared (of) the SA 4534. I guess it's a reproduction of the 4430 but I don't know if it sounds the same. Maybe some of you can tell the difference.

I can buy the SA 3210 networks which were used in these speakers from someone nearby for my DIY 4430's....Would that be worth trying??

http://www.stage-accompany.com/download/files/vintage/Sa4534.pdf

Guido
11-01-2005, 09:25 AM
Huh! Very interesting. Haven't seen those :blink:

If the price is reasonable try it.
You can draw the schematic for us and we'll tell you if it's close to the 3134 design.

Earl K
11-01-2005, 09:41 AM
FWIW;

- It's just about always cheaper to build your own crossovers / even after including better parts .

- Before committing to buy , ask to see the insides of one of the crossovers .

- These SA crossovers might be loaded with "inferior-sounding" electrolytic and/or mylar capacitors . Also, look to see if the inductors are air-core types. The inductors may also be cored with high-grade transformer-laminates / in which case ; you'll need to solicit some hands'-on opinions about this types' sonic performance .

- The included parts may be just fine / But you won't know if you don't research the purchase a bit more .

:)

Zilch
11-01-2005, 10:13 AM
Would that be worth trying??Yes, of course.

Send 'em over to me when you're done.... :)

Robh3606
11-01-2005, 10:22 AM
Try and get a schematic. If you read their brochures they have a couple of woofer options. You should have tailored crossovers as the top ends and sensitivity on the drivers are a bit different. If they use a generic I would compare it to the 4430 schematic before you buy.


Rob:)

Dutchman
11-01-2005, 11:16 AM
Since I have a pair of E-140's with 2235 cones the multiple woofer options for these SA crossovers might just turn out allright.:hmm:

I'm still searching for these schematics. I don't think they're published on the internet.

Zilch
11-01-2005, 12:02 PM
Since I have a pair of E-140's with 2235 cones the multiple woofer options for these SA crossovers might just turn out allright.:hmm:I believe your E140's reconed to 2235H's will be indistinguishable from the real thing. Unless you're thinking of actually using one of the other drivers, I would not consider that a major factor.

Also, as Rob points out, without the schematic or a more complete description of the crossover, we don't know if there are actually different "options" for those.

I'd say poppin' E140, E145, or 2225/6H in a 4430 would be a major alteration converting them to something more appropriate for SR use, perhaps. 2235H's extended bass is an essential component of the 4430 design's sonic character.

Also, you haven't told us the cost yet. If they're under $300 for the pair, it's probably a worthwhile investment in any case....

Ian Mackenzie
11-01-2005, 12:05 PM
They look like a generic system used previously in local venue(the front bar of my local pub.)

Jands made an identical system down here.

Dutchman
11-01-2005, 01:10 PM
I can get these crossovers for about 150 USD (125 euro) a pair.

http://audiovideo.2dehands.be/listuser/446316/9684510-s-a.html

Found this SA file but I don't think it'll help:

http://www.stage-accompany.com/download/files/vintage/SAX60a.pdf

Zilch
11-01-2005, 01:26 PM
They look right. Buy 'em....

Crash
11-02-2005, 06:16 AM
I believe your E140's reconed to 2235H's will be indistinguishable from the real thing.

That would mean JBL should have used a 2225/2235 core to build an E130 or E140 and such wasn't the case. The 2235 cone kit in an E130 or E140 basket results in a hybrid with a tilted response, not as much area under the curve on the bottom end and more area under the curve on the top end. Retune the enclosure and change the passive or active filter accordingly.

I'd say poppin' E140, E145, or 2225/6H in a 4430 would be a major alteration converting them to something more appropriate for SR use, perhaps. 2235H's extended bass is an essential component of the 4430 design's sonic character.

You're correct, so don't use a more powerful magnet, such as an E130 or E140 magnet, and skew the balance of the driver.

.

Zilch
11-02-2005, 12:45 PM
You're correct, so don't use a more powerful magnet, such as an E130 or E140 magnet, and skew the balance of the driver.A pair of E140's and a pair of 2225's are at the reconer guy right now.

Gonna run 'em on NL200t3 in retuned 5 cuft. 2507 boxes (4 easy tuning options closing off ports) and report the results.

It's WAY fun confirming this stuff.... :bouncy:

Crash
11-02-2005, 01:25 PM
A pair of E140's and a pair of 2225's are at the reconer guy right now.

Gonna run 'em on NL200t3 in retuned 5 cuft. 2507 boxes (4 easy tuning options closing off ports) and report the results.

It's WAY fun confirming this stuff.... :bouncy:

What is it you are confirming?.

Zilch
11-02-2005, 01:54 PM
What is it you are confirming?Differences in actual LF driver performance. In particular, the E140/2235H recone.

2235H recone kits are now $156 list.

Maybe I throw in stock E145, LE15A and B just for kicks.

I have NO clue why folks are paying big bucks for LE15B.

Must be some rock star's "secret" or somethin'.... ;)

Aussie Pete
11-02-2005, 06:13 PM
Gee ...... am I missing something here, I always thought then next best thing to a 4430 was 1 using the 2226H drivers instead of the 2235H, I made several of these and they rocked!! I constructed my own 4430 xover with air core rather than ferrite core which looking back was probably not a smart thing to do because of the size of the inductors and the DC resistance even though I used heavy gauge enamelled copper wire (gee maybe the loss because of the dc resistance was made up for in the 4db sensitivity difference between the drivers) The reason I didn't use ferrite at the time was because I needed a current probe for my cro to see if I was saturating the ferite core which then meant experimenting with different size ferrite formers and it all became too hard so I had them wound for me by another local loudspeaker manufacturer as air core ...... but I thought it amusing that when I discused my thought about using ferrite and not being able to see the saturation point of the core without a current probe they looked at me all silly like ..... didn't understand.... and didn't know what a current probe was, this now has me thinking how they managed to sell their own stuff throught the world as "top end" ..... must have a good marketing machine I supose, because their lack of knowledge in this area didn't impress me.

Zilch
11-02-2005, 06:46 PM
HUH?

2226 has NO LF extension in comparison to 2235.

Why they package them as SR "Subwoofers" I don't get.

Perhaps in a TCB box, they'd be, but even then (4685), they're down 3 dB at 36 Hz.

[Zilch still lookin' for a 4685, BTW....]

All a matter of context, apparently.

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2226.pdf

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2235h.htm

4430's voicing and bass response depends upon 2235H.

Ian Mackenzie
11-02-2005, 09:03 PM
Gee ...... am I missing something here, I always thought then next best thing to a 4430 was 1 using the 2226H drivers instead of the 2235H, I made several of these and they rocked!! I constructed my own 4430 xover with air core rather than ferrite core which looking back was probably not a smart thing to do because of the size of the inductors and the DC resistance even though I used heavy gauge enamelled copper wire (gee maybe the loss because of the dc resistance was made up for in the 4db sensitivity difference between the drivers) The reason I didn't use ferrite at the time was because I needed a current probe for my cro to see if I was saturating the ferite core which then meant experimenting with different size ferrite formers and it all became too hard so I had them wound for me by another local loudspeaker manufacturer as air core ...... but I thought it amusing that when I discused my thought about using ferrite and not being able to see the saturation point of the core without a current probe they looked at me all silly like ..... didn't understand.... and didn't know what a current probe was, this now has me thinking how they managed to sell their own stuff throught the world as "top end" ..... must have a good marketing machine I supose, because their lack of knowledge in this area didn't impress me.

Hi Pete,

Interesting experience.

From what I have read, ferrite cores are the least preferred alternative to gapped iron cores or large air cores. I have not seen a 4430 crossover but it may use a suitable rated iron core chokes.

Ian

Aussie Pete
11-03-2005, 05:02 PM
[QUOTE=Ian Mackenzie]Hi Pete,

Interesting experience.

From what I have read, ferrite cores are the least preferred alternative to gapped iron cores or large air cores. I have not seen a 4430 crossover but it may use a suitable rated iron core chokes.

Yes I know what you mean about iron cores in preference to ferrite (sounds like the old Alnico Vs Ferrite argument), and I believe but stand corrected that the earlier cores in earlier monitors of the 70’s were iron. But it's been over 15 years since I pulled open a 4430 and looked at the crossover and did all this work (gee that sounds like it was last century) but I am almost certain that they used ferrite cores, but then again they could have been Iron Powder cores, you have me thinking now though, I will lift a driver out of my 4435's and check. Ferrite comes in about 10 plus different classes made up of 2 basic groups, Nickel Zinc ferrite and Manganese ferrite, each with varying permeability and Q, so there is ferrite and there is ferrite and it does have it’s advantages, so long as you don't saturate the core, in general, less turns for the same inductance compared to other materials, therefore less DC resistance and a more ideal (in terms of loss) beast .....and best of all a cheaper assembly…..and we know how tempting that can be to manufacturers….. Iron Powder Cores are made up of 2 basic groups Carbonyl Iron and Hydrogen Reduced Iron with similar advantages …… Anyway I'll check my 4435’s and verify but I’m glad you have raised the issue.



In relation to using the 2226 as a substitute for the 2235, I’m well aware of the reduced extended LF output, in my very humble opinion most audio sources with the exception of some DVD’s don’t contain much extended LF content anyway (well mine don’t or my room won’t let me reproduce them) but this is probably why I bought my Aphex 204 Aural Exciter …. If used conservatively it can extend the LF output very nicely …..with obvious precautions in not overdriving the LF driver below the box frequency and unload the LF driver ….if anyone has a smaller system they should try and get their hands on an Aphex 204 and at least try it, because if used conservatively these can enhance the LF output very nicely without wrecking the LF driver and make a little system “sound bigger” in the LF department ….. you will see them on ebay fairly regularly as people tend not to use them correctly and tend to over cook the enhancement and they are not very user friendly … so they get frustrated and get rid of them …….bargain!!!! Check out the link if you want to know more http://www.aphex.com/204.htm (http://www.aphex.com/204.htm) off topic again ... Maybe this would make a good new topic and get some opinions happening. Incidentally Jands had a 2226/2426/2344 combination in a 4728 stage monitor if anyone wants a schematic.



Gee I get off topic quite easily !!!! I’ll go now … I will try and find some time this weekend to dismantle the 4435’2 Ian but most of my time will be spent re-sweeping and setting up my 5235 active crossover (home built but electrically identical) and BSS FDS360 24dB Linkwitz/Rieley active crossover networks to run the new system active and comparative listening tests ...... so little time and so much music to listen to……

Zilch
11-03-2005, 05:44 PM
Here's 4430's stock inductors, L102 (rear) and the pair of L2's I pulled to upgrade to Jantzen air core. L1 is air core.

Aussie Pete
11-03-2005, 06:39 PM
Here's 4430's stock inductors, L102 (rear) and the pair of L2's I pulled to upgrade to Jantzen air core. L1 is air core.

Thanks Zilch ... a picture says a thousand works, you have saved me the job of pulling mine apart .... gee I could have sworn the ones I pulled apart all those years ago were ferrite ..... it was a long time ago though ... but I think I will still have a look at my 4435's in time

Regards