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mbottz
10-27-2005, 06:21 PM
I purchased a very nice set of L-112's about a year ago and have never been quite satisfied with the sound. IMO they sounded kind of Tinny, shallow and lacked depth. So I sold all the guts and replaced the drivers with components of an L65, including crossover. I think it made a world of difference. When I A-B compare them to my L-300's they are very similar. Good dispersion, good sounding mids, except they could use a bit more bass.

My question is, to one of the cabinet tuning experts out there is, could I benefit by changing the port size or port depth for the installed driver? Or should I search for a different LF driver?

Also Do you think the new 112 config would benefit from an LE-85 horn as a midrange?

I power these with a 250 watt Pioneer Spec 2 & Spec 1 preamp with a Technics Sl-p1300 professional CD player.

Thanks for any help you can give. Here is a pic of them setting next to my 300's

Thanks

Mike

Zilch
10-27-2005, 06:38 PM
We need cabinet interior dimensions, driver model #, and present port dimensions, i.e., diameter and depth....

mbottz
10-27-2005, 07:08 PM
It may be optomistic to expect L300 bass from the current cabinet config, but I would like to see if it is possible to get a bit more from tuning.

Interior cabinet dimensions are 23"H X 12.75 "W X 10"D Port 3" dia 6" deep.

I think the driver is the 126A

Thanks in advance for any help.

Mike

pelly3s
10-27-2005, 07:27 PM
well it looks pretty cool

Robh3606
10-27-2005, 08:22 PM
Your going to have a problem simply because you dropped the 126 into a smaller box than you started with. As far as I know there are no published T/S paramaters for that woofer. If you are near someone with a Woofer Tester 2 you could measure them to get the T/S. You need the measurements to be able to model the drivers in a box program to see what you can do with the volume you have.

Techbot to the rescue?? Anyone have the TS on a 126A???


Rob:)

BMWCCA
01-10-2024, 06:59 PM
Stumbling upon this thread nearly 20-years later as I renew my acquaintance with the L112s I've owned since new for 40-years—having just given them new surrounds—I understand the fallacy of the Original Poster's premise. He should have taken the speaker complement of the L112 and put it in the cabinet of the L65. He did it backwards! The 128H has always needed a bit more box volume but it is a far better woofer than whichever of the three versions available mbotz has in his L65. And for normal use, the 077 really isn't all that compared to the silky 044! Show me that I'm wrong.

I just completed the L112 and they are happily playing atop the 240ti I recently "restored", too. Sitting in front of both of these is the L150A I'm working on next. Looking forward to another data point for comparison. Oh what fun I'm having just two-weeks into retirement.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53455847371_0747333690_k.jpg

DerekTheGreat
01-11-2024, 05:09 AM
Yah, if he wanted a better L112, he should've just opted for a set of 120ti's. Not that I've ever heard a pair, but the midrange and 044ti tweeter are supposed to be pretty darn good.

Although I rather liked the 044 tweeter in my 150A's. If only JBL mirrored those cabinets like they did with the L112's. Yours look great, BMWCCA. Glad you're enjoying retirement! Keep posting. :)

BMWCCA
01-11-2024, 06:53 AM
Yah, if he wanted a better L112, he should've just opted for a set of 120ti's. Not that I've ever heard a pair, but the midrange and 044ti tweeter are supposed to be pretty darn good.

Although I rather liked the 044 tweeter in my 150A's. If only JBL mirrored those cabinets like they did with the L112's. Yours look great, BMWCCA. Glad you're enjoying retirement! Keep posting. :)
You know when we had our Mid-Atlantic JBL small speaker shootout, the 18ti with the same tweeter did not fare as well, much less surpass the basic 035-based plastic model in the L1 and L20T to the best of my recollection. That same 120ti tweeter is in the 240ti playing under my L112 in the photo above. I've got to say, being able to A—B both through the same amp in the same spot, I don't find the 044 to be lacking in any way. And that's after many hours of comparing them. Sure, my soon-to-be 71-year-old ears probably aren't what they used to be approaching 20,000Hz (or probably above 12,000!), but I can still hear them. The original 044 has always been pleasant and non-irritating. In fact, you can probably see in the photo that I back the tweeter and mid in the L112 back 2dB on the L-pads and what you can't see is I'm running the 240ti at flat on the rear switches to balance them out. :dont-know:

DerekTheGreat
01-11-2024, 10:42 AM
Heh, it didn't even occur to me that you've got both at your disposal to audition. Good to know. I never thought the 044 was lacking, rather liked it. Ran across a lot of [mis]information claiming that it was harsh compared to "soft dome" tweeters. Probably comes down to equipment. I'll never forget how much my mind was blown when I dumped that 510M Marantz in favor of it's usurper, the Adcom GFA-555II. They were pretty rad when both were driven by their own dedicated 555II. ...For all of twenty minutes :bouncy:

I'm over-due to "test" my hearing with test tones. Last I checked, I couldn't hear anything past 16khz. Also curious to see who hears better, me or Angela. :)

BMWCCA
01-11-2024, 11:53 AM
Heh, it didn't even occur to me that you've got both at your disposal to audition. Good to know. I never thought the 044 was lacking, rather liked it. Ran across a lot of [mis]information claiming that it was harsh compared to "soft dome" tweeters. Probably comes down to equipment. I think much of that comes from people hearing on the Internet how irritating the 035 titanium tweeters are (but I have those, too...) and then transfer that complaint to all JBL domes not realizing that the 044 is actually a "soft" phenolic dome painted with aluminum. I think a lot of that also can come from bad source material. Sh*t in, sh*t out.

Similar phenomenon occurs when you hear people complain about "West Coast sound" attributed to all JBLs because they read it on the Internet. (Yes, I have L100 Century, too...)

I believe much of my JBL acquisitions are because of misinformation I've read on the Internet. The more I collect, the more I can personally attest to what a load of crap those opinions really are.

Now if I can just get around to finishing the L150A and the 250ti, I can further expand the scope of my experience. At some point this could even lead to a sell-off once I've satisfied my curiosity and have had the chance to share the live results with a few others.
:thmbsup:

DerekTheGreat
01-11-2024, 12:35 PM
Agreed. Why I like getting my hands on the stuff and trying it out as well.

The 250ti.. I'm looking forward to that rebuild! I've always wanted to hear (and see) a set. I'm especially curious about the versions with the updated bi-ampable crossover network. Not sure if that was only limited to the Jubilee.

BMWCCA
01-11-2024, 01:17 PM
The 250ti.. I'm looking forward to that rebuild! I've always wanted to hear (and see) a set. I'm especially curious about the versions with the updated bi-ampable crossover network. Not sure if that was only limited to the Jubilee.I did have a chance to hear Mark's set at "the house where bass goes to die" in Northern Virginia. With subs, as I recall. My experience with the Crown Studio Reference-II on the 240ti tells me I should have enough power for the 250ti without needing to bi-amp. That's why I got it. But you never know. I don't get to play music as load as I used to. Too many sensitive ears in the house until I finish my upstairs "bonus" listening room. Another project.

Mr. Widget
01-11-2024, 06:51 PM
I don't get to play music as load as I used to.That's why you still have most of your hearing! :D

On the tweeter topic, I was never a fan of the JBL in house dome tweeters. I thought that Audax, Peerless, SEAS, Vifa, and Dynaudio all did a better job. Apparently Harman agreed. They bought Audax... though they eventually sold it off when much of their manufacturing moved to Asia.


Widget

DerekTheGreat
01-12-2024, 05:25 AM
I did have a chance to hear Mark's set at "the house where bass goes to die" in Northern Virginia. With subs, as I recall. My experience with the Crown Studio Reference-II on the 240ti tells me I should have enough power for the 250ti without needing to bi-amp. That's why I got it. But you never know. I don't get to play music as load as I used to. Too many sensitive ears in the house until I finish my upstairs "bonus" listening room. Another project.

Yes, unless you like to get above 110dB, 200-300 watts will be fine. Although if it was me with your gear, I'd put a PS-400 or 200 on duty for the highs and the SR-II for the lows. Those SR amps produce the tightest and most authoritative bass I've ever heard or experienced. A pleasure even at moderate volumes.

I have yet to fully jam out with little ears in the same house, but that day will come. Angela and I jam together, but we only play the system up to moderate levels with the girls around. However, I will acclimate them to the system and it's capabilities much like my dad did with us when I was young. It's in my DNA and I will infect them with it as well. :D

rusty jefferson
01-12-2024, 07:00 AM
that's why you still have most of your hearing! :d....
Widget
+1 :-)


...on the tweeter topic, i was never a fan of the jbl in house dome tweeters....
Widget
+1 :-)

Robh3606
01-12-2024, 07:56 AM
Agreed. Why I like getting my hands on the stuff and trying it out as well.

The 250ti.. I'm looking forward to that rebuild! I've always wanted to hear (and see) a set. I'm especially curious about the versions with the updated bi-ampable crossover network. Not sure if that was only limited to the Jubilee.

Stock bi-amp on an L250Ti Jubilee??

Rob :)

BMWCCA
01-12-2024, 08:38 AM
Stock bi-amp on an L250Ti Jubilee??

Rob :)Not mine. :dont-know:

Mine aren't "L"s or Jubilees. Just 250ti.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49221985343_125909f886_c.jpg

Robh3606
01-12-2024, 09:10 AM
Not mine. :dont-know:

Mine aren't "L"s or Jubilees. Just 250ti.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49221985343_125909f886_c.jpg

Lucky you! Those look to be in mint condition. You have a single pair of terminals if I remember right with jumper bars. Jubilee has 2 pair of input terminals set-up to bi-wire. It's not set up off the shelf to bi-amp like the XPL-200 was.

Unless there is more than one version floating around. Curious has any actually seen a stock bi-amp version?? As far as I know there never was a stock bi-amp L250.

Rob :)

DerekTheGreat
01-12-2024, 10:21 AM
...If I remember right with jumper bars. Jubilee has 2 pair of input terminals set-up to bi-wire. It's not set up off the shelf to bi-amp like the XPL-200 was...

Rob :)

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I've attached a picture of it for reference. Technically, if you're using two amplifiers, you are bi-amping. But you're right, the 250ti/Jubilee doesn't have the inductor defeat switch the XPL-200 has. With that in mind, is the inductor found in the 250ti/Jubilee as detrimental to the bass as it is with the XPL-200? The bass of the XPL-200 flat out sucked unless bi-amped. It was just there. Bi-amping with an active crossover brought it to life, made it authoritatively tight. Well, as good as that 'lil 12" could do. :D

BMWCCA
01-12-2024, 10:52 AM
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I've attached a picture of it for reference. Technically, if you're using two amplifiers, you are bi-amping. But you're right, the 250ti/Jubilee doesn't have the inductor defeat switch the XPL-200 has. With that in mind, is the inductor found in the 250ti/Jubilee as detrimental to the bass as it is with the XPL-200? The bass of the XPL-200 flat out sucked unless bi-amped. It was just there. Bi-amping with an active crossover brought it to life, made it authoritatively tight. Well, as good as that 'lil 12" could do. :D

As described so simply in the L7 Owner's Manual Supplement, there are many forms of bi-wiring but none of them are true bi-amp. My only experience with bi-amped JBLs is with my 4345 which were built intentionally to delete the bi-amp switch so they must be bi-amped. Which requires an electronic crossover. I'm not familiar with the XPLs to know if they work the same way as the L7 but it seems from your message that they have a switch where for the L7 an internal wiring mod must be made to properly bi-amp them. Not sure what's required to achieve the same advantage on the 250Ti. :dont-know:

Robh3606
01-12-2024, 10:55 AM
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I've attached a picture of it for reference. Technically, if you're using two amplifiers, you are bi-amping. :D


That is an often a debated issue. Depends on what side of the fence your on. If you are a purist you need an active crossover. If you look at JBL Pro Monitors that were bi-amp systems when you turned the bi-amp selector switch it takes out the Low and High pass poles on the drivers where appropriate. And of course they offered an appropriate active crossover.

So that being the case you don't get all the advantages bi-wiring.

Rob :)

Ian Mackenzie
01-13-2024, 12:08 AM
Hi all,

I’ve enjoyed reading these posts.

I wish l had these bad boys to play with.

As a young man l would drool over these systems in a HiFi shop.

So much to enjoy. So little time.

I have found in retirement l am busier than before…Lol.

I couldn’t find the schematic on the XPL200 to comment on the question of the woofer inductor. Some of these systems have their own quirks.

Floating around are some posts about bi amping.

BMWCCA
01-13-2024, 06:37 AM
Hi all,
I couldn’t find the schematic on the XPL200 to comment on the question of the woofer inductor. Some of these systems have their own quirks.

Does this help?
https://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/XPL200a%20ts.pdf

Robh3606
01-13-2024, 07:23 AM
Not sure what's required to achieve the same advantage on the 250Ti. :dont-know:


I built a bi-amp version of the L250Ti Jubilee's many years ago. To make the conversion from stock would take some work. The woofer not to hard the lower midrange required component value changes to keep the same voltage drive. Depending on what version of the L250 you were converting you would have to drop it into a crossover simulator and go from there.

Not something many people would want to do. You also need an active crossover you can match or be adjusted to match the voltage drive on the woofer. I used a DX-1 where that is possible.

DIY scratch build fine. I wouldn't do it to a stock system unless I didn't care about resale or set it up so you could easily go back to the stock system. Probably wouldn't do it anyway.

Rob :)

BMWCCA
01-13-2024, 08:52 AM
I built a bi-amp version of the L250Ti Jubilee's many years ago. To make the conversion from stock would take some work. The woofer not to hard the lower midrange required component value changes to keep the same voltage drive. Depending on what version of the L250 you were converting you would have to drop it into a crossover simulator and go from there.

Not something many people would want to do. You also need an active crossover you can match or be adjusted to match the voltage drive on the woofer. I used a DX-1 where that is possible.

DIY scratch build fine. I wouldn't do it to a stock system unless I didn't care about resale or set it up so you could easily go back to the stock system. Probably wouldn't do it anyway.

Rob :)With the 250ti I'm supposed to be starting with the better crossover of the series already. The Crown Studio Reference-II was intended for the 250ti from the start. I'm mostly interested in hearing them because of GT's assessment in comparing them to the 4345. If they come even close to those, I'll be impressed. Shouldn't be too hard to pass along if not. The 4345 work just fine bi-amping with Crown PS-200 and PS-400 with Ashly XR1001, but I've heard the 250ti is much more hungry for power. :dont-know:

Robh3606
01-13-2024, 09:54 AM
With the 250ti I'm supposed to be starting with the better crossover of the series already. The Crown Studio Reference-II was intended for the 250ti from the start. I'm mostly interested in hearing them because of GT's assessment in comparing them to the 4345. If they come even close to those, I'll be impressed. Shouldn't be too hard to pass along if not. The 4345 work just fine bi-amping with Crown PS-200 and PS-400 with Ashly XR1001, but I've heard the 250ti is much more hungry for power. :dont-know:

Yes there is a GT post about that buried in one of the threads. I ran my Jubilees using 3 PS-200's. Had the bass amps strapped. So very similar power wise. I can see them being power hungry compared to the 4345's because of a significant difference in sensitivity. In any case I think you will like them definitely different but great in their own right.

Have fun I wish I had stock pair to play with!

Rob :)

Designers comments:

https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?10613-4345-Includes-Designer-s-Post

BMWCCA
01-13-2024, 10:46 AM
Yes there is a GT post about that buried in one of the threads. I ran my Jubilees using 3 PS-200's. Had the bass amps strapped. So very similar power wise. I can see them being power hungry compared to the 4345's because of a significant difference in sensitivity. In any case I think you will like them definitely different but great in their own right.

Have fun I wish I had stock pair to play with!

Rob :)

Designers comments:

https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?10613-4345-Includes-Designer-s-PostSo no one has to miss it in this short-term-attention-span world we live in today:

Before closing I should comment briefly about the 250 - 4345 comparison. Simply put, I prefer a 250. I like the bass quality of the LE14 woofer. Alway have and always will. The 2245 when used as a dedicated sub is one of the best sounding woofers ever. It has an amazing blend of speed, pitch and punch. So does the 14" but the 18" is better. Unfortunately the 18" dislike for passive networks hurts it more than the 14" is hurt by a passive network. I think the mid and high range on the 250 is smoother and much more open however the 4345 wins by a bunch in terms of effortless dynamic sound. I have made all of the above changes to 250 systems (except for separate amp on UHF) and the improvement is huge. I have not done so on the 4345 but I suspect that that system will benefit from theses changes more than a 250 would. If both systems were tweaked out to about the same level, I suspect it would be very hard to come up with a clear overall winner, but I think I might lean towards the 4345 as having the greater potential.

Mr. Widget
01-13-2024, 11:43 AM
So no one has to miss it in this short-term-attention-span world we live in today:Of course GT wrote that before he went down the road of tweaking and massaging his personal pair of E2s.

As many have said before, every speaker is a whole host of compromises. I would submit to date no single speaker system is close enough to perfect to allow it to win hands down in every shootout.


Widget

BMWCCA
01-13-2024, 01:48 PM
Of course GT wrote that before he went down the road of tweaking and massaging his personal pair of E2s.

As many have said before, every speaker is a whole host of compromises. I would submit to date no single speaker system is close enough to perfect to allow it to win hands down in every shootout.Almost twenty-years goes by very quickly.
Just ask anyone over 50!

mbottz
01-14-2024, 04:03 PM
Alright Gentlemen, be kind! In the last 20 years starting out as a novice I only consider myself more seasoned these days. Definitely not an expert. I will continue to push my imagination, and try different things. "I can accept failure. Everyone fails at something. But I can't accept not trying." ― Michael Jordan. I don’t think any of us that have not tried to improve on their systems with tweaks or different modifications. I have learned a lot from listing to the experts on Lansing Heritage over 20 years since I started this hobby. Each JBL speaker has its own unique personality and if you are looking for a different sound just purchase another set of speakers. But most of all be open to every opinion and listening experience you are blessed with. Similar to BMWCCA I have retired all of 60 days, Along with enjoying my 3 Grandchildren. I have a much awaited project list also. Hope I can get it all done in retirement L100’s, L100t’s, 4301’s, 4311’s, 4312’s, L112’s, L50’s, L16’s, L26,s, L36’s, L150’s, L65’s, L150’s L220’s, L222’s, L212’s, with bass energizer, 4430’s, 4425’s, 18ti’s, 250,ti’s, L300’s & 4343’s. I’m’ sure I may have missed a few. I did come across a set of 120TI’s and am very impressed with the way they sound They are definitely keepers. All the best to the Forum. Keep the legend alive for new Generations!!

BMWCCA
01-14-2024, 05:25 PM
I have a much awaited project list also. Hope I can get it all done in retirement L100’s, L100t’s, 4301’s, 4311’s, 4312’s, L112’s, L50’s, L16’s, L26,s, L36’s, L150’s, L65’s, L150’s L220’s, L222’s, L212’s, with bass energizer, 4430’s, 4425’s, 18ti’s, 250,ti’s, L300’s & 4343’s. I’m’ sure I may have missed a few. I did come across a set of 120TI’s and am very impressed with the way they sound They are definitely keepers.

60-days? And you're not done yet? :cheers:

DerekTheGreat
01-16-2024, 06:34 AM
As described so simply in the L7 Owner's Manual Supplement, there are many forms of bi-wiring but none of them are true bi-amp. My only experience with bi-amped JBLs is with my 4345 which were built intentionally to delete the bi-amp switch so they must be bi-amped. Which requires an electronic crossover. I'm not familiar with the XPLs to know if they work the same way as the L7 but it seems from your message that they have a switch where for the L7 an internal wiring mod must be made to properly bi-amp them. Not sure what's required to achieve the same advantage on the 250Ti. :dont-know:

I attached a picture of the input panel for the XPL-200's. When you switch to "Bi-amp", you need an electronic crossover as the woofer will try to play anything you throw at it. In those days, I used an Ashly XR-1000. I later tried using the Ashly with my UREI/2245 combo over the BX-63A. A face-off between the two revealed the BX-63A was superior in the sound quality department. The Ashly reduced resolution a bit and added a bit of noise as well.


With the 250ti I'm supposed to be starting with the better crossover of the series already. The Crown Studio Reference-II was intended for the 250ti from the start. I'm mostly interested in hearing them because of GT's assessment in comparing them to the 4345. If they come even close to those, I'll be impressed. Shouldn't be too hard to pass along if not. The 4345 work just fine bi-amping with Crown PS-200 and PS-400 with Ashly XR1001, but I've heard the 250ti is much more hungry for power. :dont-know:
The Ashly will get you rolling, but if you like what you hear, you'll want to replace the Ashly with something better.


That is an often a debated issue. Depends on what side of the fence your on. If you are a purist you need an active crossover. If you look at JBL Pro Monitors that were bi-amp systems when you turned the bi-amp selector switch it takes out the Low and High pass poles on the drivers where appropriate. And of course they offered an appropriate active crossover.

So that being the case you don't get all the advantages bi-wiring.

Rob :)

Nope, you're right. Bi-amping with an active crossover is where it's at. :bouncy:

BMWCCA
01-16-2024, 11:15 AM
Thanks for that. I've used the Ashly XR1001 now for probably 15-years with my 4345s. Apparently what I don't know won't hurt me!

I've considered Marchand crossovers but last I looked those were over $1200 versus the Ashly at just over $100, used.

When I first started on this list my title was "bottom-feeder" but someone made me take it off at some point.

I still try to work within my used-but-don't-really-need-it-anyway audio budget of $200. That has bought me L80T (actually $50), L96, 4412A, L1, L3, L5, and L7, S38, DCM TF600, Crown PL-200 and PL-400, and even (if I use fuzzy math) a Crown Studio Reference-II. My Crown D75A budget has always been $100. I own two Ashly XR1001s purchased used at I believe $125 each. Ten times for the Marchand is tough to wrap my head around. Oddly enough, I don't seem to have a problem spending five-times that on 40-year-old motorcycles. But then they seldom require thousand-dollar electronic crossovers. ;)

If I had a different crossover on-hand to compare, maybe I'd see the light! For now I'll have to be content living in blissful ignorance!
Now back to the L150A rehabilitation project.

BMWCCA
01-16-2024, 07:39 PM
Since we've gone so far afield from the original topic of this zombie thread, I may as well detour once more.

I finished up the bottom repairs to the L150A and replaced the plinth on one of them. The other is ready tomorrow when the glue dries. Since I used real wood, I'm tempted to leave it in what is close to a matching finish to the speaker's veneer. Or it would be very easy to just make it black like the original crappy plinth. Not that it makes much difference, and I can always flip it upside down later, tape it off, and spray it black. So close to hearing them for the first time. Just a bit of refinishing a few spots to take care of to make them presentable. The drivers are all getting impatient!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53468050087_f57cf754ae_k.jpg

Ian Mackenzie
01-17-2024, 01:46 AM
I like zombie threads...LOL

DerekTheGreat
01-17-2024, 05:48 AM
Thanks for that. I've used the Ashly XR1001 now for probably 15-years with my 4345s. Apparently what I don't know won't hurt me!

I've considered Marchand crossovers but last I looked those were over $1200 versus the Ashly at just over $100, used...

...If I had a different crossover on-hand to compare, maybe I'd see the light! For now I'll have to be content living in blissful ignorance!...

That was my opinion initially as well. rustyjefferson was very generous, and I had so much new stuff to play with, so the BX-63A just sat there for awhile because I figured the Ashly was on the same level. He'd kindly nudge me here and there to try the BX-63A. I did try it, eventually. It opened up the soundstage and added detail to the music. Things I couldn't live without now. If I was in your shoes, I believe a MiniDSP will do the things the Ashly does, but on a much better level while being significantly cheaper than $1,200 while also offering countless other uses as it is programmable. If funds are a concern, how about selling off some of those JBL's once you've finished restoring them? I'm slowly working at getting rid of the things I know I'll no longer use.

On topic with the L150A's, your set is like all the others I've seen come apart- the crossover network is on the bottom! Mine was at the top and my serial numbers were consecutive, ending in "B's", for whatever that meant.


I like zombie threads...LOL

Me too! I've come across countless threads that were revived some five or more years after what was then the last post. To a reader in that position, the time gap is irrelevant, but the knowledge is invaluable. :)

BMWCCA
01-17-2024, 06:20 AM
Derek, Thanks for sharing and encouraging with your electronic crossover experience.
On topic with the L150A's, your set is like all the others I've seen come apart- the crossover network is on the bottom! Mine was at the top and my serial numbers were consecutive, ending in "B's", for whatever that meant.Looking in the Link section of the Forums in the Consumer Tech Sheets section, you'll see a separate entry for the L150A-B. This idiot's cursory reading of the circuit diagram leaves me thinking the A-B network schematic is different in the wiring/arrangement, but the same in the components used, so your mention that your crossover was in the top, leads me to believe they changed the manufacturing technique or supplier at some point, requiring an update to the model designation. I see no other changes based on the Tech Sheets supplied. :dont-know:

BMWCCA
01-17-2024, 12:48 PM
That was my opinion initially as well. rustyjefferson was very generous, and I had so much new stuff to play with, so the BX-63A just sat there for awhile because I figured the Ashly was on the same level. He'd kindly nudge me here and there to try the BX-63A. I did try it, eventually. It opened up the soundstage and added detail to the music. Things I couldn't live without now. If I was in your shoes, I believe a MiniDSP will do the things the Ashly does, but on a much better level while being significantly cheaper than $1,200 while also offering countless other uses as it is programmable. If funds are a concern, how about selling off some of those JBL's once you've finished restoring them? I'm slowly working at getting rid of the things I know I'll no longer use.
How are you using he BX63A to biamp . . . anything? Isn't that dividing network intended for use with the JBL B460 sub? I don't run any subs. What would be needed for my 4345 and what should outperform the Ashly would be the 5234A with the 4345 cards, right? :dont-know:

BMWCCA
01-17-2024, 02:21 PM
There is currently a cheap 5234A on Canuck AudiioMart but the seller doesn't seem to understand the concept of the cards enough to offer an answer beyond that they were used with his 4355. Would that happen to be the same as the 4345, if I can confirm the cards are in there?

And then there's this one: https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649608920-jbl-5234-crossover-with-43504343-cards-250hz-12db/

Riley Casey
01-17-2024, 02:32 PM
The primary difference between the Ashly 1001 and the older JBL 5234 is the crossover filter slope. 4th order with the Ashly and 2nd order with the JBL. The 2nd order filters would be as specced by JBL to match the passive networks in the box but there are benefits to having 4th order filters as well. Hard to say that the JBL crossover would be an improvement without actually comparing them.



... What would be needed for my 4345 and what should outperform the Ashly would be the 5234A with the 4345 cards, right? :dont-know:

rusty jefferson
01-17-2024, 02:42 PM
How are you using he BX63A to biamp . . . anything? Isn't that dividing network intended for use with the JBL B460 sub?...
He's not using it to bi-amp, he's using it as intended for B-460 clones in 8 cubic foot boxes.

hjames
01-17-2024, 04:56 PM
He's not using it to bi-amp, he's using it as intended for B-460 clones in 8 cubic foot boxes.
Right - BX63A is designed to combine the 2 stereo channels and extract the low bass for a standalone amp to feed the subwoofer.
(I've got one I don't use just to have the matched set - not for sale)
And yes, I didn't dust for you lot ... ;)

BMWCCA
01-17-2024, 05:44 PM
He's not using it to bi-amp, he's using it as intended for B-460 clones in 8 cubic foot boxes.

Yes, I know that. Just got confused thinking the BX was being compared to an Ashly for my purposes but I see that's not the case. Not sure that one bad Ashly spoils the whole bunch. Which is why I'm not ready to jump into changing what's working—even if selling three pairs of JBLs might pay for it. I'm diggin' the variety of the different models and haven't really hit a clinker yet! Granted some have been more disappointing than others.

Listening to some Bill Evan's Trio on the stacked L112/240ti combination while I ready the L150A for its debut in the JBL basement. :bouncy:

Ian Mackenzie
01-17-2024, 06:06 PM
The B63 is a sub woofer crossover

The main outputs to the main loudspeakers have a simple 6db per octave passive filter with no op amps in the signal path. The sub woofer outputs are as l recall 18 db per octave and have op amps to buffer the level control, add bass EQ and provide stereo and mono outputs. The crossover point was 63 hertz. I may have missed some details but that’s basically it.

I don’t think you will appreciate anything different in the 5234 over the Ashley.

BMWCCA
01-17-2024, 06:45 PM
The primary difference between the Ashly 1001 and the older JBL 5234 is the crossover filter slope. 4th order with the Ashly and 2nd order with the JBL. The 2nd order filters would be as specced by JBL to match the passive networks in the box but there are benefits to having 4th order filters as well. Hard to say that the JBL crossover would be an improvement without actually comparing them.

Thanks. All the seller can tell me is that it came with his 4355 which he sold. According to the 5234A tech sheet, the 4355 and 4345 use the same chip. Does that sound correct? Other than it being in Canada, the price is reasonable but it looks to have endured a fairly rough life! I've had some unexpected Customs issues with Crown stuff from Canada, but never with the Soundcraftsmen stuff I bought from there. I really don't want any surprises. :dont-know:

https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/650054915-jbl-crossover-model-5234a/

Ian Mackenzie
01-17-2024, 07:06 PM
Just a heads up those 5234 and the 5235 had only unbalanced outputs.

Only the input was balanced.

https://ashly.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/xr-1001.pdf

The Ashly based on this tech sheet had balanced outputs.

What this amounts to is that if you are using power amps with balanced inputs (phono 3 tip ring or XLR 3 pin ) the Ashly is going to be quieter over the JBL crossovers. Things like ground loop buzz, cable noise and emi can all shrouded the sound quality particularly at normal or low listening levels.

BMWCCA
01-17-2024, 07:23 PM
Just a heads up those 5234 and the 5235 had only unbalanced outputs.

Only the input was balanced.

https://ashly.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/xr-1001.pdf

The Ashly based on this tech sheet had balanced outputs.

What this amounts to is that if you are using power amps with balanced inputs (phono 3 tip ring or XLR 3 pin ) the Ashly is going to be quieter over the JBL crossovers. Things like ground loop buzz, cable noise and emi can all shrouded the sound quality particularly at normal or low listening levels.Thanks. It is my impression that the 5234A came with 1/4-inch jacks. That appears to be what is in the ad. I don't use balanced. I could because I have the Mod-X adapters for the Crown PS amps, but I don't.

Please take a look at this photo the seller sent me of the inside. Are those the two cards in front? I'm sure those numbers mean something but I have no idea.
Thanks:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53470848241_6a8c3b2dab_k.jpg

Ian Mackenzie
01-17-2024, 09:26 PM
Yes they are

I could not identify which cards they are. So ask the seller are they 12 db or 18 db cards and what frequency?

You want either a generic 18 db card or the pre determined 515145 cards for the 4345.

I can assist you with setting up an 18 db card for the 4345.

BMWCCA
01-17-2024, 10:07 PM
Yes they are

I could not identify which cards they are. So ask the seller are they 12 db or 18 db cards and what frequency?

You want either a generic 18 db card or the pre determined 515145 cards for the 4345.

I can assist you with setting up an 18 db card for the 4345.Thanks for your help. All the seller knows is that they came with his 4355s.
According to the 5234A tech sheet, the 4355 and 4345 use the same chip.:confused:

Ian Mackenzie
01-17-2024, 10:22 PM
Okay that means they are most likely the 18 db cards installed as the 4355 and the 4345 used the same pre determined or user programmed 18 db cards.

If the seller is prepared to show the other side of the card this can be validated.

Ian Mackenzie
01-17-2024, 11:19 PM
Edit - Update.

I magnified the card tracks and they appear to resemble the 12 db cards when comparing to the JBL card parts designations.
One of the cards has been re soldered at one point.
So that means the seller may have used the original 4350 12 db crossover setting at 250 hertz.

All is not lost..however.

As a stretch these 12 db cards could be updated to a Linkwitz Riley 12 db crossover set for 300 hertz which I know works on the 4345.
See below

Some background.

The passive woofer - mid range crossover in the 4345 was we know is a compromise because the woofer and the mid range filters interfere with each other.

So we know we should bi amp the 4345.

JBL change their ideas occasionally. The former JBL 4355 used a BW 12 db 250 crossover card and the 4343 used a customised BW 12 db card with spread crossover points at 230 and 290 hertz.

The aim of this was to get the systems sum flat in the woofer crossover region. To streamline the situation for user JBL then used identical 18 db cards with both the 4355 and the 4345. They claimed the active 18 db electrical characteristic offered a similar characteristic to passive network for the 4345. However it is a more abrupt crossover transition. Greg Timbers has mentioned the passive filter was compromised. I have measured this and I agree.

Insights
I found the 18 db crossover on the 4345 to be very sensitive to adjustment. After I measured what was a going on I found the passive midrange bandpass filter adds approximately 2-3 db of passive gain to the 2122 mid cone. This translates to the mid cone being louder than it should be.

Greg Timbers responded the 4345 miid L pad (only) should be turned up full when the 4345 bi amp switch is set to external. This partly compensates for the imbalance in the mid cone level and the woofer absolute levels in bi amp mode. The point is that most users would not necessarily be aware of this .

Another possibility has I have hinted at above is the Linkwitz 12 db crossover filter which does sum flat. Unlike the BW filters the LR filter is -db at the crossover region and it sums flat with the electrical phase of the woofer and mid cone reversed. I have personal found this to be subjectively better than the 18 db crossover filter which sounds like the woofer and the mid cones are operating separately on some program material.

The cut a long story short I think the cards in the JBL crossover could be set up for the LR 12 db crossover. If its a bargain sale it would be worth investigating and trying it.

DerekTheGreat
01-18-2024, 04:56 AM
How are you using he BX63A to biamp . . . anything? Isn't that dividing network intended for use with the JBL B460 sub? I don't run any subs. What would be needed for my 4345 and what should outperform the Ashly would be the 5234A with the 4345 cards, right? :dont-know:

He's not using it to bi-amp, he's using it as intended for B-460 clones in 8 cubic foot boxes.

Hmm. How is that not bi-amping? The BX-63A is taking the signal, dividing it and then feeding two (eventually four in my case) amplifiers; one for the lower frequencies and one for the frequencies above the lower ones. Sure, the drivers don't all live in the same box like the XPL-200's, but the end result is the same in my eyes- I've got the low end of the signal going to dedicated amplifiers & woofers and the high end going to dedicated amplifiers and drivers. :dont-know: Yes, the BX-63A is designed to work with the B460 and B380 subwoofers. Unfortunately, I am a laymen and don't know anything about the JBL deal with the cards..


Derek, Thanks for sharing and encouraging with your electronic crossover experience. Looking in the Link section of the Forums in the Consumer Tech Sheets section, you'll see a separate entry for the L150A-B. This idiot's cursory reading of the circuit diagram leaves me thinking the A-B network schematic is different in the wiring/arrangement, but the same in the components used, so your mention that your crossover was in the top, leads me to believe they changed the manufacturing technique or supplier at some point, requiring an update to the model designation. I see no other changes based on the Tech Sheets supplied. :dont-know:

:) Glad I could be of some help. I noticed that anomaly between A-B with the L150's. Like you, I didn't see any 'real' changes, nor did I ever see a "L150B" out in the world. So I guess that means I had L150A-B's and that yeah, they changed something for some reason. I did buy a spare set of L150A crossovers, they looked identical to what you have and what I had. Although I want to say there is a "sloppier" version out there, where all the components aren't arranged as pretty on the board.

BMWCCA
01-18-2024, 07:11 AM
Edit - Update.

I magnified the card tracks and they appear to resemble the 12 db cards when comparing to the JBL card parts designations.
One of the cards has been re soldered at one point.
So that means the seller may have used the original 4350 12 db crossover setting at 250 hertz.

All is not lost..however.Thanks for the detailed assessment.

It looks like a decent deal at $200 but, given the questions raised, not sure if it's worth the experimentation, since the Ashly offers the ability to emulate the Linkwitz Riley 12 db crossover through their "response" setting and to set the crossover frequency for approximately 290 hertz. I suppose only a direct comparison will give answers. But then this box has such limited utility (given the cost of new cards) that I'm not sure I'm up to throwing away money at this point.

I'll give it some thought but I doubt the seller will feel comfortable pulling the cards to see their bottoms. All I can do is ask!

rusty jefferson
01-18-2024, 10:13 AM
Hmm. How is that not bi-amping?....
Bi-amp generally refers to an amplifier channel for each driver in a 2 way system that could be either active or passive. The way JBL uses the term referring to separating out a woofer from the other drivers, that are left on a passive network, is unusual but still technically bi-amping I suppose, as what you're doing is probably still technically bi-amping. It's really just semantics.

Robh3606
01-18-2024, 11:32 AM
Thanks for the detailed assessment.

It looks like a decent deal at $200 but, given the questions raised, not sure if it's worth the experimentation, since the Ashly offers the ability to emulate the Linkwitz Riley 12 db crossover through their "response" setting and to set the crossover frequency for approximately 290 hertz. I suppose only a direct comparison will give answers. But then this box has such limited utility (given the cost of new cards) that I'm not sure I'm up to throwing away money at this point.

I'll give it some thought but I doubt the seller will feel comfortable pulling the cards to see their bottoms. All I can do is ask!

You should be able to resell especially with those crossover cards. I agree about your if it's worth it concern. Do an E-bay search for just the cards to see what's currently.

Rob :)


https://www.ebay.com/itm/255732879994?hash=item3b8ade127a:g:b1gAAOSwXbhe47u v&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA8BIUPWq2k%2BkkQhXKhynRj6FzWLB %2B2et5pbPAFCs36C3SYrTb%2BS6tk4S3fyNqnvaNEixAWFdDo P0ilBD8AUFE0Crdq4cnyrjrHmo5azTwAkz5uUuJIr5999lJTDS Cq4RyoE%2FZClWtPhCxrkx8qOCNZYG6sNv4oHbas2R5QmTi7ms FlKsPx9uaI4uqInc9ysweyhSj%2FQnW7d3BSGTCQzB4r559du6 QpbeoClB%2Fvab1UiA8GBYVPwgCDWgGyqZAdu9Y0Atvr%2BWOW e0okeUnZ6f%2FEcRTI4zyRuwkva5NLm4Bi5pDwluGrRdFknda4 N7qhlsCTA%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR4zX7eKjYw

speakerdave
01-18-2024, 01:40 PM
I missed the segue, but I would have to agree a biamped 4345 is a better L112. :)

Odd
01-18-2024, 01:41 PM
I use the JBL 5235 Electronic Crossover which I have changed almost all components inside. And it works well.
Don't think I would buy the 5234A today.
Had a new 18 db printed circuit board made a few years ago.
I think I still have some lying around. They are easy to make.
Everything is described in the manual Ian posted.

Ian Mackenzie
01-19-2024, 06:40 PM
Very cool.

Ian Mackenzie
01-19-2024, 07:13 PM
I had a look at the spec sheet below and it’s an interesting unit. There is an adjustment for the crossover point to obtain a flat response. Thats a nifty feature.

According to the spec sheet it states 24 db per octave slopes. Does it matter and more to the point would you hear it ? It really depends on the circumstances in which a system is used. Technically its a rabbit hole either way. The whole thing could be technically correct but once it’s put in a real world situation some of that goes to hell unless the user is prepared to use for example a graphic equaliser or some form of bass and mid bass EQ to make the system acceptably as smooth as possible in that frequency region. That requires measuring with REW and a microphone or a dsp based EQ like Dirac. There are pros and cons on either route. There’s a bit of experimentation and work in making it worthwhile. For some it’s a must do but for others not so much. I don’t mind the look of an 31 band graphic EQ. They are a great talking point over a good bourbon. But the question again is do the circumstances warrant that and is the user interested in doing that?

So it’s important to look at any change in the context of the circumstances and what the user wants out of the system.

https://ashly.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/xr-1001.pdf

BMWCCA
01-19-2024, 07:37 PM
Okay, getting back to the original thread subject: I FOUND A BETTER L112!!! :applaud:

It's called the L150A. ;)

Almost 18-years ago, just after joining this group, I acted on a for-sale tip and met Don Mascali who helped with the purchase of some L150A near his home. For over twelve-years they sat in my garage in their original boxes, in need of new surrounds and a tweeter repair. Within the last five-years I moved them up to the new house and realized how much of a toll bad storage had taken on them. It looked like water damage with splitting seams, and rotted plinth, but there was no water. Could be termite or carpenter ant damage, since the garage is over 80-years-old. Regardless, they needed more help than new surrounds. So I parked them after destroying the contaminated parts and fumigating them outside. Years later, this month, I worked on the drivers, replacing surrounds on four 12-inch cones, and took apart the smashed 044 to see what could be done. To save time, I replaced the diaphragm with one from a spare, but still had to polish out the tarnished aluminum bodies. That done, I took another cringing look at the cabinets, bought some larger clamps and wood filler and went to work in an attempt to make them acceptable. The surface on some parts looks to have reacted with the styrofoam pieces in the original boxes and the boxes themselves were so destroyed by bugs and whatever they excreted (?) that I had just knocked off the plinth pieces, burned them and the cardboard, and tossed the styrofoam. I forced glue into the spread seams and clamped them as tight as I could overnight. That did not work as well as I thought, but it was better. Then I tried Bondo Wood Filler for the etched top surfaces and sides that were in contact with the Styrofoam, knowing full well that this would be a good time to learn another skill—veneering! But I wasn't ready for that degree of perfection. I made new plinths out of an old mahogany futon frame I had replaced but held onto because the wood seemed very solid. I ripped the rails with a table saw, mitered the sections with a compound miter saw, and bought a cheap drill press from Harbor Freight to drill and countersink the 1-3/4" plinth parts to attach them to the bottoms. I sanded, I stained, but the best I could come up with was a finish that looked more like Wormy Chestnut than JBL Walnut. Some Howard's Restore-A-Finish and steel wool created an acceptable surface and I already had the magic Krylon that is a dead-on match for JBL semi-flat black. It was time to put them back together.

I still needed one terminal cap, but I've had a salvaged pair of L26 that I'd paid nearly nothing for and hadn't touched in way too many years. I asked them to donate one black terminal cap simply because I always like old JBLs to be as near-original as possible. I hate the terminals but use a nice simple adapter that goes from braided wire to female banana jack, and just leave them attached. And then I plugged them into the Crown Studio Reference-II and put on some Jennifer Warnes "The Hunter" and cued up the track "Way Down Deep". OMG, as the kids say! :frantic:

I spent the next several hours swapping CDs and speaker cables comparing the L112 and 240ti with the newly re-commissioned L150A. I referred to the 150 as "humbling" in that it humbled both other capable JBLs, as well as humbling me for treating them so badly for so long. But I was near tears to think that I had eventually saved them, and finally got to hear them. Now on to the next project!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53474817114_cbb13ba11d_k.jpg

Mr. Widget
01-20-2024, 10:40 AM
I spent the next several hours swapping CDs and speaker cables comparing the L112 and 240ti with the newly re-commissioned L150A. I referred to the 150 as "humbling" in that it humbled both other capable JBLs, as well as humbling me for treating them so badly for so long. But I was near tears to think that I had eventually saved them, and finally got to hear them. Now on to the next project!
Nice!

Keep it coming!


Widget

hjames
01-20-2024, 01:54 PM
Very cool, Phil! I know you have been accumulating projects for quite a while -
time to enjoy them!


Okay, getting back to the original thread subject: I FOUND A BETTER L112!!! :applaud:

It's called the L150A. ;)

I spent the next several hours swapping CDs and speaker cables comparing the L112 and 240ti with the newly re-commissioned L150A. I referred to the 150 as "humbling" in that it humbled both other capable JBLs, as well as humbling me for treating them so badly for so long. But I was near tears to think that I had eventually saved them, and finally got to hear them. Now on to the next project!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53474817114_cbb13ba11d_k.jpg

DerekTheGreat
01-22-2024, 05:17 AM
Very cool, they came out beautifully! Much like the goal I originally had for my set.

BMWCCA
01-22-2024, 06:01 AM
Very cool, they came out beautifully! Much like the goal I originally had for my set.

A lot like what we called a good "ten-footer" paint-job in the car biz! Great daily drivers though! Wasn't sure I'd like passives but it all seems to go together very well and certainly will over-shadow the low-end produced by the L112—if you have the room.