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takenodisk
10-26-2005, 12:29 PM
Hi everybody,we are all fanatics of jbl and believe that they are the best speakers ever made since,but what about other brands?While reading a french mag 'la revue du son' this afternoon brought me through reviews concerning other brands such as THIEL,B&W NAUTILUS,KLIPSCH,JM LAB with beryllium highs etc...,all of them acclaimed to be the finest speakers on the market!!!:blink: Not being personally a convinced audiophile and not having the opportunity to listen to theese 5 to 8000 bucks speakers,makes me wonder if they are right or wrong.Can i have the impressions and comments of those(lucky?)guys who have ever experienced theese speakers compared of course to jbl's.Grab your keyboards guys and thanks for participating to that thread.:deal:

Don C
10-26-2005, 01:43 PM
I don't know what the best speakers in the world are, but I do know that it's not Klipsch.

JuniorJBL
10-26-2005, 02:28 PM
I have always loved my JBL's but I also love my B&W signature 800's.
They all produce a different listening enviroment and it is fun to have the variety.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=7456

:bouncy:

Titanium Dome
10-26-2005, 02:33 PM
I don't know what the best speakers in the world are, but I do know that it's not Klipsch.

Amen to that! :applaud:

Yet, if you want some loud music...

Titanium Dome
10-26-2005, 02:39 PM
One of JBL's Harman International stablemates, Revel, makes wonderful speakers. The Revel Ultima Salon coupled with the Revel Sub30 is a fantastic louspeaker. I'd take it before I'd take over-hyped Wilsons (which are awesome BTW).

JuniorJBL
10-26-2005, 02:47 PM
One of JBL's Harman International stablemates, Revel, makes wonderful speakers. The Revel Ultima Salon coupled with the Revel Sub30 is a fantastic louspeaker. I'd take it before I'd take over-hyped Wilsons (which are awesome BTW).


Those are a very fine speaker as well!!;)

JuniorJBL
10-26-2005, 02:48 PM
I don't know what the best speakers in the world are, but I do know that it's not Klipsch.

:yes:

Ian Mackenzie
10-26-2005, 02:59 PM
Hi everybody,we are all fanatics of jbl and believe that they are the best speakers ever made since,but what about other brands?While reading a french mag 'la revue du son' this afternoon brought me through reviews concerning other brands such as THIEL,B&W NAUTILUS,KLIPSCH,JM LAB with beryllium highs etc...,all of them acclaimed to be the finest speakers on the market!!!:blink: Not being personally a convinced audiophile and not having the opportunity to listen to theese 5 to 8000 bucks speakers,makes me wonder if they are right or wrong.Can i have the impressions and comments of those(lucky?)guys who have ever experienced theese speakers compared of course to jbl's.Grab your keyboards guys and thanks for participating to that thread.:deal:


Most of the current K series JBLs are way over the above price points!
The 4343 was listed at A$5000 in 1976, I wonder what the adjusted price would be today.

But perhaps the point is a JBL user is so satisfied as a rule he ...she does not have to bother listening to other brands in dealers stores and it becomes a life long brand loyatly thing. That's the conviction worthy of the slogan.

If the other brands rely on customes brand switching for majority of their sales then they all have a problem at that price point. I also doubt if the new customer sales would sustain the business case at that price point.

morbo!
10-26-2005, 03:09 PM
i luv boath brands i havent heard the new dali`s but my stepfather has a set of dali 8 speakers from the early 90`s late 80 350w rms if u ever get a chance to listen to these im sure you wont be dissapointed

DavidF
10-26-2005, 03:29 PM
I really, really, do like the design and execution of these JMLab models. I could almost buy these speakers unheard, unplugged, and quiet as the breeze, and still enjoy them. If I did not like the sound, which given Mr. Mahul’s reputation is not too likely, I would place these in room with the some JBL’s doing the work and the Profile just standing there.


Other than that, it is difficult to settle on one model that fits all needs. Each high brand brings with it a cache unique to the company or designer. Klipsch has the long legacy and despite the compromises with the older models it is wonderful to see that the company continues to provide and support their Heritage models (Heresy III and Cornwall III !).



David F



http://www.focal.tm.fr/tek/im_tek/profile/couple-profile.jpg

http://www.focal.tm.fr/home/fr/profile/index.htm

Regis
10-26-2005, 04:10 PM
But perhaps the point is a JBL user is so satisfied as a rule he ...she does not have to bother listening to other brands in dealers stores and it becomes a life long brand loyalty thing. That's the conviction worthy of the slogan.


Naah, we don't look for other speaker brands; we just find bigger JBL's!:D

Mr. Widget
10-26-2005, 04:35 PM
I don't know what the best speakers in the world are, but I do know that it's not Klipsch. I would modify that statement to, "There is no best speaker, but I do know that it's not a Klipsch or Bose."

Is there a "the best wife"? Of course for me there is, but she might drive you crazy...:wasnt-me:

I agree that there is a short list of top candidates for best speakers. That would include THIEL,B&W NAUTILUS,JM LAB along with Revel and Wilson and the new TAD Model-1 and a few others I can't think of at the moment. There may be a contender from JBL, but due to the wisdom of Harman, I certainly haven't heard it.


Widget

Robh3606
10-26-2005, 04:37 PM
I have looked at other stuff and have liked some of it. What kept out of the running was price. All the JBL drivers I own and systems I have scratch built cost less that a single pair of speakers in that price range. Of the ones I have heard only one pair Dr. Edgars Titans and Seismic Sub combo I would really be happy with. Best part of that is he uses JBL drivers, at least in the bass horn and midrange. So I quess even when trying I can't seem to stay all too far from the fold.

Rob:)

edgewound
10-26-2005, 04:55 PM
I have really enjoyed listening to Thiel at the CES shows, along with Tannoy Churchills. Another company deserving of extended listening is Von Schweikert Audio: http://www.vonschweikert.com/.


My favorite speaker is one in which I was a dealer... Soundwave by Vero Research. Jim Gala was the designer and holds a patent for the design....sometimes they show up on eBay. Company is no longer in business. Closest thing I'd ever heard to musicians in the room with you. And extremely reasonable prices. Probably why they went out of business....not pricey enough for the snobs....go figure.

scott fitlin
10-26-2005, 05:30 PM
I like the B & W 801,s! Very neutral mids, the bass is there, but doesnt have that down low oomph of JBL, and the highs are nice, but a bit too polite at times! Something about that JBL sound keeps it on top for me!

Ive heard the big Wilsons in a Manhattan showroom, very impressive and imposing to look at, the sound was good, but not for the price they charge! Has alot of slam in the low end, I can achieve this with premium JBL woofers.

There is this one speaker I did like! Went to Manhattan to check out the Avant-Garde horn loudspeakers. Very quick and dynamic, did its thing with really low power! But then, I dig horns!

scott fitlin
10-26-2005, 05:32 PM
...not (http://...not) pricey enough for the snobs....go figure.I really believe this to be true!

Many people dont think its good enough if it doesnt cost enough!

aust-ted
10-26-2005, 05:43 PM
Most of the current K series JBLs are way over the above price points!
The 4343 was listed at A$5000 in 1976, I wonder what the adjusted price would be today.

But perhaps the point is a JBL user is so satisfied as a rule he ...she does not have to bother listening to other brands in dealers stores and it becomes a life long brand loyatly thing. That's the conviction worthy of the slogan.

If the other brands rely on customes brand switching for majority of their sales then they all have a problem at that price point. I also doubt if the new customer sales would sustain the business case at that price point.

Ian this raises an interesting point. JBLs have always been relatively expensive in Australia partly I believe because of the large margin added by the importer/ agent. Traditionally this applied to a lot of other imported brands and could not be explained just by customs duties & shipping costs. I remember from the 1960s that Leak Sandwich speakers were a good buy in Australia and they were locally assembled with imported components.

The oncome of the imternet & eBay etc certainly helped Ozzie JBLers in that we can buy direct from the US and get those components at a much more affordable price.

Regards
Ted Riesz

Rolf
10-27-2005, 03:40 AM
The 4343 was listed at A$5000 in 1976, I wonder what the adjusted price would be today.



Ian. If I convert the NKR to A$, the 4343 was listed to about A$5900 in 1976. If I calculate the normal payment in Norway at that time and today, my estimate will be that the 4343 would cost about A$ 30.000 in Norway.http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biting.gif

Regardng this Thread: "your comments about other brands versus jbl" I agree with most of the brands spokend of.

What really makes me use "old" JBL's has little to do with price. I use them because I can't find any other speaker doing what JBL does. YES, I can find other speakers playing as loud and louder .... YES, I can find other speakers playing as soft and clean .... YES, I can find speakers with even lower distortion .... +++ You get the point. BUT, I find no other speaker doing it all, exept from these old big boxes from JBL. And I have heard a few of other expensive hi-end brands.

Happy listening

Rolf

Maron Horonzakz
10-27-2005, 05:34 AM
I LIKE KLPISCH.....The Klipschorn with JBL drivers inside. I have a Khorn with 2205 woofers, 375/2397 mids & 2404 tweets on top. It sounds like a Hartsfield on steroids.:biting:

Mr. Widget
10-27-2005, 10:03 AM
I like Klipsch too... I just wouldn't call them the finest speakers available. They very well may have been 50-60 years ago, but speakers really have improved. For all those saying that the $25K+ speakers don't count... the question was who makes the finest speakers on the market. Not all of the crazy expensive speakers are great, but many of the finest speakers currently available are crazy expensive. I sure can't afford them, but I don't bad mouth them simply because I'll never have them in my house.

I'm sure your modded Klipsch speakers are better than the originals and I'd love to hear them... but we are talking about production speakers here.


Widget

Ian Mackenzie
10-27-2005, 12:10 PM
Possibly the new active Dynaudio's should be added to the list and for some the large fully horn loaded Tannoy's.

My favourite small speaker is the Anthony Gallos sphere's with the unique planar tweeter. Although no where near as sensitive, using two 5-6 inch Dynaudio drivers the respoonse extended from below 40hz and they were extremely accurate. I think the large Gallos system with side subwoofer would be stunning.

You can buy some Planar/True Ribbon drivers from E Speakers, of course having the best drivers does not mean the best system.

Coolmac55
10-27-2005, 12:42 PM
This is easy!

Best Speakers: JBL & Acoustic Research

Best Turntable: Thorens TD-124

Best Tonearm: SME 3009

Best Cartridge: Shure V15

Best Tube Audio: Marantz & McIntosh

Best Transistor Audio: McIntosh

Best Work Boots: Red Wing

Best Toy Trucks: Smith Miller

Best HO Slot Cars: Aurora Model Motoring

Best O Scale Trains: Lionel

Best Western Movie: Unforgiven

Best Music: Classical, Jazz, and Rock

Best Years for Rock: Mid 1960s - Mid 1970s

Best Years for Jazz: 1950 - Mid 1960

Best Pie: Cherry

Best Pick Up Truck: 1965 Ford F250 (Twin I Beam)

Best Heavy Weight Boxer: Ali

Best Furniture Wood: Walnut

Best Furniture Finish: Linseed Oil, or Shellac (Polish)

Best Audio Format: LP (Vinyl)

Best Tape Decks: Studor/Revox

Other than Dynaudio, there is not a new speaker I would keep in my home. They just don't appeal to me. I'd only use Dynaudio in my home theater system and not for my audio.

For me, the best speakers have already been made. Last Saturday I was working in the garage with my kids. I un-hooked an old Sargent Rayment SR-98B from a single JBL L100, and hooked up an old MC 60. Plugged in a Fisher FM 40 and using a piece of wire for an antenna dialed in the local Jazz station. I was just curious if the thing worked, but after it warmed up, I just sat there and enjoyed the afternoon. For me; right now, the best speaker in the world is my (new to me) JBL Olympus, followed by my restored AR11s. I'm sure in the next few months it will be my AR9s, after I get them finished.

scott fitlin
10-27-2005, 12:59 PM
I like Klipsch too... I just wouldn't call them the finest speakers available. They very well may have been 50-60 years ago, but speakers really have improved. For all those saying that the $25K+ speakers don't count... the question was who makes the finest speakers on the market. Not all of the crazy expensive speakers are great, but many of the finest speakers currently available are crazy expensive. I sure can't afford them, but I don't bad mouth them simply because I'll never have them in my house.

I'm sure your modded Klipsch speakers are better than the originals and I'd love to hear them... but we are talking about production speakers here.


WidgetIm not bad mouthing the expensive speakers, but I do feel some a very overpriced, and others, your paying for the cabinetry as furniture!

The Wilsons at the time, cost something like $75,000, and they were really good sounding. But ive heard that bass slam using JBL and crown too! And just as clean! I will admit, the Wilsons are very transparent for such a big speaker!

Very good sound, but I still think the sound is overpriced. maybe the cabinet isnt!

I really like the B & W,s for alot of music, but when I want to rock, JBL has a sound the others dont! And i like it!

Ill never forget the time I got to hear a top of the line Krell amp! Great bass, but everythinbg else? Edgy highs and mids! A MC-2300 blew it away on the same speakers!

And then, I was in a studio, that has the big soffit mounted self powered Genelecs with the double 12,s and waveguide mid, and I loved them! Another guy says they are too forward sounding, I thought U2 sounded like U2 through these! I liked the bass, very fast! Maybe not the deepest, but oh well!

Im sorry, but I really do think people buy, not everyone, but enough do, by the pricepoint products are in!

Mr. Widget
10-27-2005, 01:14 PM
My favourite small speaker is the Anthony Gallos sphere's with the unique planar tweeter. ...I think the large Gallos system with side subwoofer would be stunning.

Like these?

I heard them... I was way under impressed. I do like the tiny spheres if nearly invisible speakers is the primary requirement.

Widget

Mr. Widget
10-27-2005, 01:19 PM
Im sorry, but I really do think people buy, not everyone, but enough do, by the pricepoint products are in!
No doubt... but a Mercedes S Class is a better car than a Chevy. A Wilson is better than an L100...

What's wrong with paying for furniture? I hate the way Wilsons look, but if part of the cost of a Sonus Faber is due to the exquisite cabinetry, that's OK. I don't want painted MDF in my living room.

Widget

Ian Mackenzie
10-27-2005, 02:05 PM
Yeah well painted or not we all know the perils of doing in on an MDF bench top...I only use flooring grade particle board for my close entounters!:D

Zilch
10-27-2005, 02:09 PM
Like these?Izzat an exercise machine?

A "recumbent elliptical" somethin'-er-other? :p

scott fitlin
10-27-2005, 02:10 PM
No doubt... but a Mercedes S Class is a better car than a Chevy. A Wilson is better than an L100...

What's wrong with paying for furniture? I hate the way Wilsons look, but if part of the cost of a Sonus Faber is due to the exquisite cabinetry, that's OK. I don't want painted MDF in my living room.

WidgetGranted, they are better than L-100,s! When I talk about bass slam the Wilsons have, I am not comparing them to L-100,s! Nothing wrong with paying for furniture, but to me, audio is audio, and I have heard many things that I think look alot better than they sound!

I said the Wilsons have an Imposing look, I never said if I like the way they look or not! To me, they have a sort of science fiction look to them, maybe like huge robots or something!

If I were to buy an elegant speaker/furniture, I think my choice of the moment would be the B & W 802,s!

Titanium Dome
10-27-2005, 02:12 PM
I've enjoyed this three-article bit on David Wilson from Fortune. It humanizes the whole Wilson mystique a bit.

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/smallbusiness/technology/articles/0,15114,460275,00.html

Still, for my money, I'd rather spend under $40k for a pair of Revel Ultra Salons and a B30 sub than Wilsons at twice the price.

Even so, there's no denying the dedication of David Wilson to his passion. It's probably a lot more personal than Kevin Voecks, but Kevin's got the tools, the funding, and the craftsmen to really get the job done and at a lower price point.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_2/feature-interview-kevin-voecks-4-2004.html

AND, Mr. Widget, the spectacular, new Wilson Alexandria has your vaunted Hershey's Kiss supertweeter for ambience, but depends on a beautiful INVERTED TITANIUM DOMEINVERTED TITANIUM DOMEINVERTED TITANIUM DOME tweeter for the real work. Hoo-yah! :D

http://www.wilsonaudio.com/products/Alex/index.html

The Revel of course has a Ti Inverted dome midrange and Aluminum dome tweeters.

Mr. Widget
10-27-2005, 02:26 PM
AND, Mr. Widget, the spectacular, new Wilson Alexandria has your vaunted Hershey's Kiss supertweeter for ambience, but depends on a beautiful INVERTED TITANIUM DOMEINVERTED TITANIUM DOMEINVERTED TITANIUM DOME tweeter for the real work. Hoo-yah! :D

I didn't know they were using that tweeter... funny I saw a pair a couple of weeks ago but didn't look behind their grilles. I recommended that tweeter based on my experience listening to it in several other systems including a simple two-way that really sounds wonderful.

I absolutely agree with you about the Revels... If I were going to buy a pair of speakers that cost more than my car... I would seriously consider the Revels.

BTW: Revel has a new smaller speaker at $4500 a pair that is quite outstanding. Due to my irrational love for JBLs I was disappointed when I first saw the Revels... I wished they had the JBL logo on them. Of course JBL Consumer has gone down market here in the US and they had to come out with a new brand to compete in the snob appeal market.

Thanks Dome for those links, I'll check out the one about Mr. Wilson later.


Widget

JuniorJBL
10-27-2005, 02:30 PM
I am not sur that anyone can say what is the best speaker other than what sounds best to them!;)

I bought my B&W S800's for well under retail $20,000. A lot of people come to my house and the first thing they say is "they cost how much!!" and then tell me "I would have bought a car" or something along those lines and I tell them that my 1995 F250 does just fine for me, besides my B&W's will probably hold thier value better than a new car will. So it really does depend on what a person wants and likes:D

Titanium Dome
10-27-2005, 02:32 PM
(snip) besides my B&W's will probably hold thier value better than a new car will. (snip)

Man, that's the truth spoken right there.

Ian Mackenzie
10-27-2005, 03:05 PM
Interesting article but it doesn't wash that a bunch of movie stars (the absolute minority of weird people) have a glue what is a good sounding loudspeaker. The guy has a weak business model if Hollywood goes belly up.

There's more technology in a home pc for less than a grand than a Wilson and prior to introducing the X material they were'nt that well review!

Don't be surprise if a better and cheaper loudspeaker comes out of China in a year or two.

For my money the Duntech's are better and have the credentials as the choice of many major classical studio labels.

Tom Loizeaux
10-27-2005, 05:38 PM
I've made this point before, but getting my 4343s for $1,000. and then putting a little more money (and lots of labor) into restoring them, makes me very fond of these. I get to listen to 2231s, 2121s, 2420s, and 2405 slots being driven buy some Crown amps - anytime I want to hear some music!
They sound great, are efficient, look very nice, and were a very modest investment that will only increase in value!
What else could you ask for in choosing a pair of speakers?

Tom

edgewound
10-27-2005, 10:03 PM
I could NEVER justify spending $225,000 on a pair of loudspeakers. I'd surely get more thrills out of a Ferrari, Aston Martin, Merc AMG, or a vacation home in Lake Tahoe or Hawaii. More power to David Wilson and all the other audio scheisters that can fool people into spending that kind of cash that NO recording studio would spend on a pair of MONITORS. Hollywood types and the Japanese underworld obviously have more ill gotten money than sense. Maybe if Hollywood were held to Financial Accounting Standards Board principals....they would not have that kind of money to throw around, and the Federal Deficit would be lower....please.... no Bush/Iraq war comments.

Mr. Widget
10-27-2005, 11:10 PM
please.... no Bush/Iraq war.

Sorry... I couldn't help myself.:rotfl:


I could NEVER justify spending $225,000 on a pair of loudspeakers. I'd surely get more thrills out of a Ferrari, Aston Martin, Merc AMG, or a vacation home in Lake Tahoe or Hawaii. More power to David Wilson and all the other audio scheisters that can fool people into spending that kind of cash that NO recording studio would spend on a pair of MONITORS.OK, I'll go along with that, but if you are a billionaire and you have all of that and have started and funded a couple of foundations fighting World hunger, why not have something way over the top if audio is your passion? I have no idea if Mr. Wilson is a scheister or not and I really don't care... I personally think the people marketing $2K speaker wire are scheisters, but that is just my opinion.


Widget

BTW: The top of the line Wilson is about the same price as the top of the line Westlake monitor... do studios buy these Westlakes? I don't know. I would assume that some have. Are they worth it? Now that is a completely different question.

rgrjit8
10-27-2005, 11:20 PM
[QUOTE=Ian Mackenzie]
The 4343 was listed at A$5000 in 1976, I wonder what the adjusted price would be today.

QUOTE]

According to this site:
http://www1.jsc.nasa.gov/bu2/inflateCPI.html

16,600 dollars.:applaud:

Mr. Widget
10-27-2005, 11:33 PM
Our children will be able to buy 30 year old Wilsons for a song and will be ridiculing those that are buying new LG Model 888s for a cool half a million dollars.;)


Widget

edgewound
10-27-2005, 11:43 PM
Quoted by Widget...
I personally think the people marketing $2K speaker wire are scheisters, but that is just my opinion.


And I'll go along with that....frankly, I don't see much difference between the two. What would really be interesting would be a blind listening "taste test", if you will, of the high end speakers starting at, say $1000 and up to the stratosphere without revealing the brand or model beforehand. That would be fun to see the ultra-rich pick with their ears rather than their wallet-ego.

Mr. Widget
10-27-2005, 11:57 PM
The difference to me is that when I go over to a friend's house and listen to him compare his cables I leave scratching my head wondering what the hell he is thinking... sure they may sound different, but I certainly have never heard a clear winner. With these expensive speakers, there is no debate, some sound amazingly better than others.

I think our difference of opinion here is the question of whether or not they are worth it. I certainly don't think so, but that wasn't the question posed. The question was who makes the best speakers. My answer was it depends on what you like, but the above listed manufacturers all have models that should be given consideration.


WIdget

edgewound
10-28-2005, 12:03 AM
The difference to me is that when I go over to a friend's house and listen to him compare his cables I leave scratching my head wondering what the hell he is thinking... sure they may sound different, but I certainly have never heard a clear winner.
WIdget

Sure there is....the one that sounds the best...the one that sounds like nothing at all. The one that isn't being used as a tone control. And it usually isn't the one that costs thousands of dollars for a 3 meter pair. But if he sleeps better knowing he spent hundreds or thousands of dollars on his cables....I'll let him.

Ian Mackenzie
10-28-2005, 04:11 AM
Hi everybody,we are all fanatics of jbl and believe that they are the best speakers ever made since,but what about other brands?While reading a french mag 'la revue du son' this afternoon brought me through reviews concerning other brands such as THIEL,B&W NAUTILUS,KLIPSCH,JM LAB with beryllium highs etc...,all of them acclaimed to be the finest speakers on the market!!!:blink: Not being personally a convinced audiophile and not having the opportunity to listen to theese 5 to 8000 bucks speakers,makes me wonder if they are right or wrong.Can i have the impressions and comments of those(lucky?)guys who have ever experienced theese speakers compared of course to jbl's.Grab your keyboards guys and thanks for participating to that thread.:deal:

I think our difference of opinion here is the question of whether or not they are worth it. I certainly don't think so, but that wasn't the question posed. The question was who makes the best speakers.in the 5-8 K range My answer was it depends on what you like, but the above listed manufacturers all have models that should be given consideration.




So who started talking about Wilsons and how the super expensive speakers were/had to sound the best?

This raises another issue..you walk into a showroom/home and see the creation with a $200K price tag.... Your little brains says "Oh this must be really good...oh it sounds wonderful...(by the way Wilsons don't measure flat but thats not the point is it)....wow this is amazing. The same technique is used is the car sales game and many other markets.....its what they won't you too believe so stop wanking yourself and go to a concert.

Hifi high end sales are built purely on the illusion of better sound...but better than what...a croke of crap!

Robh3606
10-28-2005, 05:02 AM
Take a look at these response curves in room. This is just to show how different these High End systems can be. Which one would you rather have based on the curves???


Rob:)


http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/921/index4.html

gerard
10-28-2005, 05:42 AM
Hello Everybody .

I already sopke about this on a thread .
As I am finishing my 250 Ti project diy and wanted to have a listening base , I did not know if my 43xx clone where up todate or not and no hifi shop in Casablanca .

Travelling to paris last month , I visit some hifi shop and listen some speakers : price up to 8000.00 euro .

Thiel had a nice sousstage but very colored and tyring

Martin logan : no bass and low medium ; ok if you like quad for classical

Linn 5 way speaker were a very good system

Bw nautilus too much low medium for me not so natural

Elipson 3 way very good

All these system where low efficiency compared to Jbl .

Finally I come to the concusion my 43xx clone where even better than those systems for :

Dynamic
Deep bass
Fine Uhf

I only have a lack of 3d sound and holgraphic , sometimes you can believe each spaeaker paly separate ( may be I need dmith Horn ) but I believe with the 250 Ti I will get the soundstage I do not have if the 43xx and my be loose dynamics .

Any comment ?

Gerard .

Titanium Dome
10-28-2005, 08:16 AM
Take a look at these response curves in room. This is just to show how different these High End systems can be. Which one would you rather have based on the curves???


Rob:)


http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/921/index4.html


Well, if I were buying a chart or graph, it'd be the JBL K2. :p Interestingly, if I were buying one of those speakers, I'd also be buying the JBL K2.

Now, what I did buy was the Performance Series. The PT800 (without the PS1400 supporting the bottom) looks like this:

paragon
10-28-2005, 08:22 AM
Drivers : Coral, Fostex, Audax, Beyma, RCF, Tannoy.....

Titanium Dome
10-28-2005, 08:26 AM
That chart is from Ultimate AV. The red is +15 and the blue is -15 degrees off axis of the tweeter.

Now based on the chart, how does that compare to the Stereophile models where the K2 shows its stuff?

Yet, I know from listening that the worse-looking on paper high end speakers sound more impressive if not better than my pedestrian-built (by comparison) Performance gear.

Mr. Widget
10-28-2005, 08:43 AM
Hifi high end sales are built purely on the illusion of better sound...but better than what...a croke of crap!This is true for some of the gear. But there are companies like your beloved Pass Labs that actually do produce a superior product. They are crazy expensive, but the R&D, build quality, and the beautifully machined and finished cases are expensive to produce. I don't hear you calling Nelson Pass a con man.

Look, for years the audiophile press raved about the Wilson Watt Puppies. I heard them at least ten times as they progressed from version to version... I never liked them. I heard the version 7 two years ago when they first came out and expected to dislike them again... this was my own personal bias. I was blown away by them. I heard them in a different room with different electronics two additional times... I am still blown away by the version 7. I have no idea what makes them different from the previous models, I just LISTEN to this stuff.

I am not here to advocate Wilson's speakers. I really doubt I'll ever own a pair, they aren't my cup of tea and I doubt I could afford them if they were, but the MAXX, MAXX2, Grand SLam, and Watt Puppy 7 are all seriously good speakers. If you prefer an Altec A7 or a 43XX or an L100 that is fine. I have heard dozens of speakers in the Wilson price ranges that suck, I have heard others that I covet. These are only my opinions, but you really should give some of these expensive speakers a serious audition. It can be quite surprising.


Widget

Mr. Widget
10-28-2005, 08:54 AM
Yet, I know from listening that the worse-looking on paper high end speakers sound more impressive if not better than my pedestrain-built (by comparison) Performance gear.

Thank you! I have found that those response graphs in Stereophile and elsewhere while interesting really don't tell the whole story at all.

In my own experiments, the flatter speaker may sound better, but not everytime. There is so much more to this game than a flat frequency response with a beautiful polar plot.


Widget

edgewound
10-28-2005, 09:05 AM
After all...just like anything else we spend money on for entertainment...at the end of the day, it's the experience that we're buying... not just the product. For the extremely well-heeled, it's the rush of buying the coveted high-end for the ownership process. For the value-oriented, it's just that....the satisfaction of great sound for less dollars. Marketing and buyer behavior are interesting sciences in their own right... and provides fodder for endless stimulating conversation.

So...I'm going to go back to work and figure out how to market a speaker system that I can sell one a year and become a billionaire....stay tuned.

Robh3606
10-28-2005, 09:11 AM
"Thank you! I have found that those response graphs in Stereophile and elsewhere while interesting really don't tell the whole story at all."

Of course they don't. However they do tell you quite a bit and are useful in there own right. Look at these from 100Hz and up. Based only on the graph the choice is obvious. In a blind listening session it would be obvious as well but the opposite of the former.

Rob:)

Mr. Widget
10-28-2005, 09:26 AM
For the value-oriented, it's just that....the satisfaction of great sound for less dollars.
Absolutely... "Hey these don't sound like shit and I got them for ten bucks!!!" That will certainly make some very happy. I don't think however that was the subject of this thread. There are many, many threads here where that is right on the mark. Well OK, maybe they would say "...these are great and I got them for ten bucks..." The doesn't sound like shit is implied.:D


Widget

edgewound
10-28-2005, 09:31 AM
Absolutely... "Hey these don't sound like shit and I got them for ten bucks!!!" That will certainly make some very happy. I don't think however that was the subject of this thread. There are many, many threads here where that is right on the mark. Well OK, maybe they would say "...these are great and I got them for ten bucks..." The doesn't sound like shit is implied.:D


Widget

Please accept my apologies in joining the discussion and helping to veer it off topic.

Lancer
10-28-2005, 10:23 AM
I'm stunned...

I had no idea there were any other brands besides JBL










;)

rockin'rushmore
10-28-2005, 11:38 AM
:rotfl: :rotfl:
I'm stunned...

I had no idea there were any other brands besides JBL










;)

Regis
10-28-2005, 12:21 PM
Anybody ever hear of Wisdom Audio? $18K to $70K. The biggest woofer they have. The biggest woofer they have is a 12"r, but get this, each one has a magnet that's over 40 pounds! And the whole shebang is good down to 15hz.

http://www.wisdomaudio.com/wp_lfr.html


http://www.wisdomaudio.com/products.html


http://www.stereotimes.com/wisdom_audio_show.htm

http://www.soundstage.com/masz02.htm

Regis
10-28-2005, 12:25 PM
I'm sorry about the Wisdom Audio price specs. Those are the prices for the 'cheap' ones.


Here are the 'good' ones at $600,000... (456 pounds of magnets PER channel!), complete system weight, 3,800 pounds....

http://www.wisdomaudio.com/specs_infinite_grande.html

http://www.wisdomaudio.com/products_infinite_grande.html:p

barkingdog
10-28-2005, 12:27 PM
For me, it depends on what kind of music I'm listening to. Would I want to listen to classical on JBL's? Maybe not. Would I want to listen to hard rock on KEF's? Probably not.

I have a foot in both camps because I have a pair of JBL 4311B studio monitors and a pair of KEF 104ab's. A friend of mine who used to sell audio equipment in the seventies has a pair of 104ab's and I've had a serious case of "speaker envy" all along. I finally found a pair on EBay about two years ago with the original foam grilles (extremely rare) and stands. I've been in heaven ever since. Now my friend drools when he's here. I'll never tire of listening to the KEF's. But if I want to get my head blasted off with some good old rock and roll, I turn to the JBL's.

My quest for the perfect speaker (for me anyway) has taken me through owning Vandersteen (not to sneeze at either), creating some DIY projects plus a number of other auditions (a friend's JM labs, Magnaplanars and so on). For me, the 104ab is still the standard. For the price I paid, they just don't make 'em like that anymore.

Unfortunately, JBL got the reputation of making "boom and tinkle" boxes for a number of years. You certainly can't accuse KEF of that. On the other hand, not everybody has the power in their amp to drive such an inefficient speaker. Again, tradeoffs. When I had a 15 watt Marantz receiver in university, I would have loved to own a pair of JBL's ....

And given that I'm doing a DIY project involving JBL components that will likely register on siesmometers in Asia .....

I also use professional series JBL's for my band. Sure beats the heck out of the Yorkville Elite's and Peavey's everybody is using locally.

My two bits (25 cents CAD or 21 cents USD).

edgewound
10-28-2005, 12:40 PM
I'm sorry about the Wisdom Audio price specs. Those are the prices for the 'cheap' ones.


Here are the 'good' ones at $600,000... (456 pounds of magnets PER channel!), complete system weight, 3,800 pounds....

http://www.wisdomaudio.com/specs_infinite_grande.html

http://www.wisdomaudio.com/products_infinite_grande.html:p

Wow....$600K and it only goes to 25Khz? POS

Everyone here knows it should be DC to Light.

barkingdog
10-28-2005, 12:42 PM
..... $600,000 and only goes to 25kHz?


What I want to know is where dogs are going to get that kind of cash.

takenodisk
10-28-2005, 02:19 PM
Thanks titanium dome for the wilson audio link,this is the first time i've ever heard of those tremendous Robocop like speakers, in comparison my jbls seems so cheapppppp:banghead:.But besides its technical improvement i wonder if one pays 300k for the accoustical achievements or another luxury toy for millionnaire:screwy:,though, my respects to wilson sucess.:applaud:
I've enjoyed this three-article bit on David Wilson from Fortune. It humanizes the whole Wilson mystique a bit.

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/smallbusiness/technology/articles/0,15114,460275,00.html

Still, for my money, I'd rather spend under $40k for a pair of Revel Ultra Salons and a B30 sub than Wilsons at twice the price.

Even so, there's no denying the dedication of David Wilson to his passion. It's probably a lot more personal than Kevin Voecks, but Kevin's got the tools, the funding, and the craftsmen to really get the job done and at a lower price point.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_2/feature-interview-kevin-voecks-4-2004.html

AND, Mr. Widget, the spectacular, new Wilson Alexandria has your vaunted Hershey's Kiss supertweeter for ambience, but depends on a beautiful INVERTED TITANIUM DOMEINVERTED TITANIUM DOMEINVERTED TITANIUM DOME tweeter for the real work. Hoo-yah! :D

http://www.wilsonaudio.com/products/Alex/index.html

The Revel of course has a Ti Inverted dome midrange and Aluminum dome tweeters.

takenodisk
10-28-2005, 02:20 PM
Me too!!:blink:
I'm stunned...

I had no idea there were any other brands besides JBL










;)

Tom Brennan
10-29-2005, 10:01 PM
Some JBLs are very good but I prefer the good Altecs to any JBLs I've owned or heard.

I don't have much use for any tragic-dome type speakers including JBLs. A pair of KRKs from Guitar Center to use as surround speakers is all I want and need from that kind of speaker.

Lancer
10-30-2005, 03:29 AM
Hi Tom,

Good to see you back posting.

It's a brand loyalty thing for me. JBL has been extremely good to me over the past 30 years. I really like the JBL sound and am thoroughly aware that alot of people don't.

duaneage
10-30-2005, 07:33 PM
We are here to take your daughter!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/duaneage/Hero.jpg

I would unload my 9mm into those Wilsons if I came home and saw them threatening my family.

chad
10-31-2005, 02:17 AM
Here are two of the most pleasant sounding (non - JBL) home speakers that I have had the pleasure of hearing. Neither of which is spectacular in design or price.

Delestion DL8

KEF C40

I listen to contemporary jazz primarily FWIW.

:)

dllyons
11-01-2005, 03:53 PM
I remember a speaker I auditioned in the late 70's, just before I bought my L300's- some Yamaha NS1000's with the beryllium domes. I walked in to the showroom and a pair of them was playing and they immediately grabbed my attention on the high end. I mean, when I heard them, I wanted to know right then what was making that sound.. But when they were selling for nearly the same price as my 300's, it was a no-brainer, as they fell short in the bottom end.
Even after I bought my JBL's, me and several friends auditioned speakers week after week after week in Columbus, Oh., and I remember telling my wife several times after I came home that everytime I heard other speakers and then came home to listen to my JBL's, it just seemed like something was missing in those others. Didn't JBL have a slogan back then about "Get it all" ? they weren't kidding !!! !:applaud:
Back then, I never auditioned the super expensive SNOB speakers, as I believed in the law of dimenishing returns, but my neighbor had a pair of Theil's (I forget the model) that were pretty darn awesome- they seem to have it all and then some!