Cab Sizes - L101 vs. L99

[soundmotor]

Would anyone know why the L101 (LE14A/175) is slightly larger than the L99 (LE14A/LE20)? There seems to be enough space on the L99 baffle to fit the 175/horn combo too. The L99 looks to be ~7% smaller overall.

:screwy:

Did I miss something real obvious here?

[Zilch]

L99 is a bookshelf speaker. L101 is floor standing.

Nobody'd pay the fare for a compression driver in a bookshelf.

L99 is too small for LE14A to really perform.

They both are, actually, and LE14A is crossed too high with either of those tweeters.

BB6P suggests 2 cuft @ 32 Hz for "Hi-Fi" (Orchid), and 4 cuft @ 27 Hz for "Extended Bass." Citation 7.4 (3.5 cuft?) @ 29 Hz seems a good compromise.

[johnaec]

I assume you mean S99 instead of L99?

John

[Zilch]

AKA "Lancer 99," I believe.... ;)

[soundmotor]

AKA "Lancer 99," I believe.... ;)

Yes, & I abbreviated it to L99.

I should have written S99 to be accurate though.

[soundmotor]

L99 is a bookshelf speaker. L101 is floor standing.

Nobody'd pay the fare for a compression driver in a bookshelf.

L99 is too small for LE14A to really perform.

They both are, actually, and LE14A is crossed too high with either of those tweeters.

BB6P suggests 2 cuft @ 32 Hz for "Hi-Fi" (Orchid), and 4 cuft @ 27 Hz for "Extended Bass." Citation 7.4 (3.5 cuft?) @ 29 Hz seems a good compromise.

They were definitely splitting hairs as they differ 1" in height, 23 1/2" for the S99 & 24 1/2" for the L101. Just add a couple cinder blocks to the S99s and you are right with the era.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/wink.gif

What would you recommend as the improvement over the stock 2K crossover point? Can the LE20 handle 1.5K as provided by the LX10?

[Zilch]

What's your objective, to "fix" S99? If so, I'll take a closer look. No room to do much with the port takin' up all that baffle space.

Me, I'd build Z1 cabinets and repackage the LE14A with the inexpensive 1" PT-F95 waveguides and 2418H-1 compression drivers.

OR, build some 4425 or L200t3 clones outta them with 2342 horns.

1.5 kHz is not low enough....

[Zilch]

This'll work, but you'll still need a sub.

Use 2342 if you want 100° x 100° butt-cheeks. ;)

[soundmotor]

What's your objective,....?

Zilch, That is a stellar & fair question. I am not sure I can even answer it either. I can't say the S99s sound bad because I cannot listen to them in their present condition. The LE14A surrounds are rock hard and need refoaming.

If I had to answer speculatively, I'd say to fix the sound quality on the S99 that has been commented on here as having a non-existent midtrange. If I could do that by adjusting crossover components to a lower turnover, that would be the easiest. So, how low can the LE20 safely go?

[soundmotor]

This'll work, but you'll still need a sub.

Use 2342 if you want butt-cheeks. ;)

Hmmmm, compelling.

Who makes the PT-F95 horns you mentioned?

[Zilch]

So, how low can the LE20 safely go?I dunno.

I once considered using them in a mini-monitor at 1 kHz, but abandoned the idea.

Also important is how they would sound down there.

We're not talkin' mini-monitor here....

[Zilch]

Who makes the PT-F95 horns you mentioned?JBL, of course.

Part #338800-001, $9.90 each.... :p

That'sa 2418H-1 on it there.

Build a snazzy moderne box for the waveguide and driver. Think mini-Altec 19 and Exemplar.

OR, turn 'em sideways on stands with LavaLamps. ;)

[soundmotor]

We're not talkin' mini-monitor here....

That is for sure!

I am going to measure the set of LE20s I have from my S109s & I'll post the results here. With that little teeny voice-coil & minimal travel I am really curious what their LF resonance is.

[soundmotor]

JBL, of course.

Part #338800-001, $9.90 each.... :p

No kidding?

JBL would have been my last guess.

I would have figured cheap horns only to be available from the "Golden ShingHa Joy Audio Horn Company" or some such.

:)

Thank you for the info too!

[Zilch]

No kidding?

JBL would have been my last guess.

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/AE%20Series/AC2212,95-WH.pdf

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Sound%20Factor/SF15.pdf

[Earl K]

So, how low can the LE20 safely go?

- Here are some measurements done by the eminent Bill Woods ;

- You can see that you don't really want to push the S99s crossover point lower than where it's presently set .

- If you want to add an AC impedance graph to these 2 , that would be nice to have on record.

:)

[Zilch]

Compare to 2418H-1 on PT-F95:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6050&p=57029

[2426H also shown....]

[johnaec]

- Here are some measurements done by the eminent Bill WoodsHa ha - that LE-20 curve looks like "constant directivity". :p

John

[johnaec]

This'll work, but you'll still need a sub.Hey Zilch - will that PT waveguide fit where the S99 port and HF are? If so, that might be interesting, with the port moved to the back...

John

[Zilch]

You're so DAMN clever, John!

Have we discussed this before? ;)

Yup, that'll work - here's the pics. Gasket outlines the maximum cutout required. Not gonna be much baffle left.

We'll lose some precious volume and have to retune accordingly. Can pick up a bit by removing the crossover, tho.

The single large port won't fit, but a pair of smaller ones will.

Worth a "Go," I'd say. They'll be little hotrods. Not much extended bass, but....

Any of the PT-F waveguides will work. PT-F1010 w/2435HPL shown at bottom.

These are actually John's boxes I'm gonna cut into, folks.

[He kin come help do it, tho.... :p ]

[Earl K]

- Here's a series of pics snapped ( off of eBay ), 3 1/2 years ago .

- These are a custom le14 / DLH175 setup .

- There are a bunch of things I really like about this design, in the classical furniture sense. ( though the port placement doesn't "look" quite right ).

- You'll notice how the designer made up a bit of volume in the rear by having a removable back that laid ontop of the rest of the box . This gains ; .75" by X by Y . This idea might be worth considering to help regain the volume lost when including a horn .

- ( BTW ; I think this fellow finally came to his senses and kept these beauties )

- Nice Wood ! :p

[soundmotor]

Worth a "Go," I'd say. They'll be little hotrods.

You are the people my mother warned me about.

;)

[Zilch]

You are the people my mother warned me about.

;)We'll go first, O.K.? :p

Looks like we're gonna improve the bass response, in fact.

Actual gross internal volume is only 1.419 cuft.

Did y'all know the sides of these are 1" thick?

Red = Standard S99
Black = PT-F modded, retuned

[Zilch]

You'll notice how this designer made up a bit of volume in the rear by having a removable back that laid ontop of the rest of the box . This gains ; .75" by X by Y . This idea might be worth considering to help regain the volume lost when including a horn.Good idea Earl. That'll get us 0.18 cuft, and more than make up for the horn and driver.

The more volume we can get, the lower we can make these play.... :)

[johnaec]

They'll be little hotrods. Not much extended bass, but....'Nothing a little judicious use of EQ shouldn't be able to take care of, at least for a solid 40hz. :bouncy:

John

[Zilch]

'Nothing a little judicious use of EQ shouldn't be able to take care of, at least for a solid 40hz. :bouncy:

JohnI'm thinkin' a dual LE14A sub like Gordon designed, of course, or a pair of Citation 7.4 boxes with LE14's in 'em.

If these work, they'll make a killer HT system. BB6P says no constraints at full rated 100W. Cone excursion limited below 25 Hz only.

[O.K., where's the SawZall?]

[Zilch]

1) One inch hole saw makes corner radii in cutout laid out from gasket. It's 1/2" smaller on the sides, and 3/16" top and bottom versus the gasket to preserve baffle.

2) Particle board or MDF, they're no match for the Barbie SawZall. I'll likely glue 1" x 4" brace across the back of the baffle between the woofer and horn. Not much left there.

3) Assembled. Detail the gasket carefully to make a decent seal at the lower right where the port was.

4) Grilled. They'll NEVER know. :p

Fabric grilles would probably work better, as the fretwork no doubt messes with the controlled dispersion somewhat.

Or maybe Sonofagun foam grilles so's they look like L100's. Same box, basically, tho S99 is a little narrower. How 'bout matching the L200's, then?

5) Hotcha!! B380 will augment the bass. Here, without ports, just the crossover cutout.

Gotta work up a crossover for these. That's the biased AM playin' 2418H-1 crossed at 1.1 kHz there....

[johnaec]

Zilch - that is so kool! I can't imagine those cabinets going to a better use! It'll be interesting to see what difference ports make. I've got a bunch of different size cardboard tubes, if needed...

John

[Zilch]

I've got a bunch of different size cardboard tubes, if needed....Gonna use ABS pipe here. Just need the right size hole saw.... :)

[Zilch]

Zilch - that is so kool! I can't imagine those cabinets going to a better use!
Heh, heh. I imagine there's a bunch of members cringing about now, tho.

Consider this: There's hundreds of LE14A's sold on eBay each year. They all came out of cabinets that likely went in the dumpster.

We'd do well to contact any local LE14A seller, inquire as to the cabinets, and rescue them. Or, if we buy the speakers, get the cabs, too.

Any LE14A's that have the black paint stripes on the flange faces likely came out of S99's.

Let me assure all, even with JBL's cheapest horn and driver, these sound better than any S99 ever imagined it could.

And I got them for free....

[Zilch]

Flat-face PT-F1010 waveguide with 1.5" 243X drivers works, too.

Here with 2435H, the HF could be padded down a bit (like 6 db!), or the system biamped to achieve the best balance.

Time alignment's better, probably, with this shallow horn.

[Ummm, "Crispy." ;) ]

[soundmotor]

Any LE14A's that have the black paint stripes on the flange faces likely came out of S99's.

What is the deal with the stripes?

[Zilch]

What is the deal with the stripes?Grille kinda "floats." You can see back there behind it, so that part of the shiny aluminum frame is painted out....

You gonna do this? :D

[soundmotor]

Grille kinda "floats." You can see back there behind it, so that part of the shiny aluminum frame is painted out....

I saw the hourglass shape of the cloth behind the grille and figured that it had shrunk over the years. I would not have thought it (A), it went out of the factory like that, & (B), that was the fix for it.


You gonna do this? http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

You've made a compelling case to do it that is for sure. When you look at it, you have to wonder why no one thought of it before? It makes complete sense. Kudos!
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/rockon2.gif

My dilemma is modifying the factory casework. Granted, these are not JBL's best offering by a longshot and there is no big loss in doing so. However, it is one less set of original cabs. Also, I just have not thought through what I actually want these to end up as. I've got plenty to do while I figure it out though starting with the LE14A refoam and getting a better handle on the permutations of JBL HF offerings. I have a feeling once I get through that, I'll end-up asking you for the schematic of the final crossover iteration.

(I am actually going to bang through my L19A's 1st as they only need refoaming and I can have them up & running ASAP. Then onto the LE14A's, which look to be a real challenge.)

[Zilch]

My dilemma is modifying the factory casework. Granted, these are not JBL's best offering by a longshot and there is no big loss in doing so. However, it is one less set of original cabs.The answer to that is to get a pair of thrashed cabs from a nearby LE14A seller (so you don't have to pay freight,) for free.

You don't care if they have grilles or not. If they do, you can sell those on eBay to help pay for waveguides and compression drivers.

Use those cabs for "experimentation" before you commit to modify your own good ones.... ;)

[soundmotor]

The answer to that is to get a pair of thrashed cabs from a nearby LE14A seller (so you don't have to pay freight,) for free.

You don't care if they have grilles or not. If they do, you can sell those on eBay to help pay for waveguides and compression drivers.

Use those cabs for "experimentation" before you commit to modify your own good ones.... ;)

You do have a way of boiling it right down.

That is an excellent suggestion.

[Zilch]

When you look at it, you have to wonder why no one thought of it before? It makes complete sense. Kudos!John did it.

Thinkin' BEHIND the box again.... :p

[soundmotor]

John did it.

Thinkin' BEHIND the box again.... :p

Hey, I'm new. Gimme a break!

;)

[spkrman57]

I have a pair of cabinets originally made for LE-14A and LE-20 and if I can squeeze a 2226 in them and still use the port(with mods), would be interesting to see what it ends up like.

I would use a wood horn on top (rectangular 650hz tractix/Martinelli) and see how she does.

Thanks for all the great ideas guys!!!!!

Ron

[Don C]

The answer to that is to get a pair of thrashed cabs from a nearby LE14A seller (so you don't have to pay freight,) for free.

You don't care if they have grilles or not. If they do, you can sell those on eBay to help pay for waveguides and compression drivers.

Use those cabs for "experimentation" before you commit to modify your own good ones.... ;)
If there is someone who lives within driving distance of Santa Rosa and wants to put this advice into use, I happen to have a set of badly abused L-55 cabinets available. Actually, they don't look too bad from the front. Send a PM, then come get em.

[Zilch]

I have a pair of cabinets originally made for LE-14A and LE-20 and if I can squeeze a 2226 in them and still use the port(with mods), would be interesting to see what it ends up like. At 2+ cuft, the C56/L101 floor models can be easily retuned to BB6P's suggested optimum "Hi-Fi" alignment (30-32 Hz) for the LE14 family.

Kinda low-standing for integrating a horn into them; sittin' on top may be the best choice.

There was a less expensiver version without the marble, too. I forget the model number.

Any of those cabinets would be well worth rescuing from LE14A sellers for DIY, as well.

If experience to date holds true, LE175 in some of 'em will play nice with PT waveguides, adapters required....

[Hafta try that, too.... ;) ]

[Zilch]

Remains after surgery. Note that JBL used masking tape to "fit" the cardboard ports into the baffles.

RTA shows performance with 2431H on PT-F1010 waveguide. Flatter than 2435HPL on this crossover, but they'll still require padding down for better balance with LE14A.

HF only on axis (bottom). This combo is "scandalous." :p

Boxes in Arizona here: http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-JBL-LANCER-S99-S-99-SPEAKER-CABINETS-NICE-N-R_W0QQitemZ5824042184QQcategoryZ61377QQrdZ1QQcmdZV iewItem

[Zilch]

1) 2-3/8" hole saw cuts ports for two 2" internal diameter ABS ducts in rear of S99 cabinet. Two wraps of masking tape will snug 'em up 'til I can check the tuning before final installation with, ummmm, I don't know what with. RTV or structural adhesive, probably. Something gooey.

2) View inside shows ducts clearing the front baffle by 1.75". Paired 8" ducts tune these boxes to 35.5 Hz, f3=53.9 Hz. I'll have to add some insulation and gain virtual volume to achieve that. Rear mounting of ducts makes that less of a problem; more insulation at rear won't block the ducts. I'll wrap whatever portion of them doesn't get buried, as well.

3) View from the rear shows ports. I reversed the T-nuts on the crossover cutout to mount a plywood block from the outside, with foam gasket to let the driver leads exit there and still make a good seal.

4) RTA at 12" shows actual LE14A performance. Get OUTTA HERE! :D

Compare to BB6P target design posted earlier:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7671&page=2&p=74080

Thanks again, Johnaec for this great DIY upgrade idea.... :thmbsup:

[Zilch]

1) LE14H-3 with 4" added fill

2) Same with 6" added fill

The big difference I hear with the fill is that all "boxiness" in the bass is gone. Apparently there were standing waves to absorb.

3) Well, economically, they're just silly:

LE14H-3 $400
2431H $800
PT Waveguides $170
Crossovers $200
Boxes free
Total $1570/pair, list, to build.

Consider, however, that the drivers are from Project Array.

[Less tweeter, of course. :p ]

Sound good, tho....

[johnaec]

Even with the fill, they seem about 12db down at 40 hz. They could surely handle EQ down there, but it looks like the LE14 series just wants more volume...

John

[Zilch]

They're tuned to 35.5 Hz. Maybe I give 'em a little "bump" there and see what they sound like.

As is, they're pretty impressive.

Sound better with B380's runnin', for sure.... :p

[Don C]

If there is someone who lives within driving distance of Santa Rosa and wants to put this advice into use, I happen to have a set of badly abused L-55 cabinets available. Actually, they don't look too bad from the front. Send a PM, then come get em.
Last chance before I have to break these up for the dumpster. I really need the space. The grills and glass tops are included, but no drivers, crossovers, or emblems.

[Zilch]

NO! NO!

Donate them to SCIENCE! :D

Alas, I have no way to haul 'em.

Can I tempt you to drag them down here with the promise of hearing Hotrod S99's, Mini-Everests, and Q&D 4430's?

[Real 4430's, too?]

[Don C]

That first pic made them look better than they look in person.

[Zilch]

O.K., well, you don't get to hear the REAL 4430's then, but the rest of the offer stands.... :p

[Zilch]

More LE14H-3 info here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7930

[Zilch]

Don C's L-55's are diminutive floor-standers in comparison to L200 (rear). Special thanks to Johnaec for snagging these for experiment. With a little cabinet work, they'll be quite nice with glass or travertine marble tops.

And their sculptured grilles will look VERY cool in JBL Monitor Blue. ;)

BB6P says the stock tuning is 40 Hz (blue), but suggests they are near optimum size for hi-fi tuning of LE14A to 32 Hz using one 3" port, 6.25" long (orchid). Beefing up the damping with more insulation will improve them, too.

Shown in photo with 2342 biradial, my first thought is a 4425 clone, easily accomplished. The existing holes in the baffle make reconfiguration somewhat difficult; the crossover was in front at top, too, looks like.

Also, maybe, Project Array configuration via DDS vertical format horn.

Tractrix anyone?

[Itza 90° Engebretson, actually.]

Ideas welcome here.... :thmbsup: