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Audiokarma
09-11-2003, 12:16 PM
Greetings,

I am going to look at a pair of L200's this evening. The original Walnut Veneer has apparently been redone in Oak. I am told it is a quality job done professionally by a skilled cabinet maker. I have not seen them yet to judge for myself.

I would appreciate any opinions as to the effect on the value of these speakers; good, bad, or indifferent.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Kevin

Don McRitchie
09-11-2003, 12:33 PM
Aside from the veneer issue, you should be aware of the engineering background of that system. The following is a post from our old forum on this issue:

The original L200 was developed in 1971 as a result of pressure from JBL's marketing division to have a large speaker for the burgeoning rock market. They dictated that it have an accentuated midbass response that they felt would appeal to rock listeners. JBL's engineers addressed this by modifying the LE15A with an underdamped suspension, lighter cone and corrugated surround that resulted in an ill defined but boomy response.

Once the L200 was developed, Marketing insisted that there be a pro equivalent. They wanted to repeat the marketing success of the earlier L100 by saying that the L200 was the home version of a studio monitor used by audio professionals. The engineers strongly objected to foisting an inherently inaccurate monitor on the pro industry but were overruled by Marketing. This led to the introduction of the 4325.

There were virtually no 4325's sold in the US. A few were sold by JBL's UK distributor. Further, this distributor built his own monitor based on JBL components and called it the 4326. This used the same 2216 (LE15B) as the 4325 but replaced the 2420 with a 2440 and added a 2405. JBL was happy to have the transducer sales so they didn't put a stop to their distributor's actions. The result was that JBL's reputation in monitors was severely damaged in the UK. Once the sound engineers installed and listened to them, there was such a backlash to JBL that it took them years to re-establish their reputation there.

The L200 was also not that well received and sales were below expectations. Even the UK pro sales were short lived once their reputation got out and the 2216 was discontinued by 1975. That year, all 2216/LE15B systems were replaced by systems using the 136A/2231. That was the year of introduction of the L200B and L300. Those systems were significantly more accurate.

Audiokarma
09-11-2003, 12:50 PM
Thanks Don,

That's some very interesting and useful information. I've noted that in addition to the change from the LE15B to the 136A that the crossover point was reduced from 1200Hz to 800hz and that the system weighs about 6lbs more.

I don't know yet whether it is the A or B model. Would it be clearly labeled or would I need to pull the drivers?

Thanks again,

Kevin

Robh3606
09-11-2003, 01:05 PM
It should be labeled and the 2216 has a pleated surround. The 2231 has a foam half roll.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1973-l200.htm


http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1975-l200b.htm

Rob:)

Don McRitchie
09-11-2003, 01:07 PM
I think there is a foilcal label at the cross-over control on the front baffle. If not, look at the bass driver. The pleated cloth surround on the LE15B is quite distinctive as shown here:

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/reference/general/1974-insight/In12.jpg

In comparison, the half roll surround on the 136A is easy to spot here:

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1975-l300/page2.jpg

I know the cross-over mounted on the back of the L200B should say "LX200". I think the cross-over on the L200A is labelled LX16.

Audiokarma
09-11-2003, 01:25 PM
Thanks again to Don and Rob,

That should make differentiating quite simple.

It occured to me that I should have asked if the L200B was/is considered to be a successful response to the shortcomings of the L200A?

Regards,

Kevin

Don McRitchie
09-11-2003, 01:30 PM
It does address the bass deficiencies. It is pretty much an L300 without the 077. You'll have to listen for yourself if the rolled off HF response in comparison to the L300 is a limitation you can live with. Either that, or consider adding 077's to the system to make them into psuedo L300's.

Audiokarma
09-11-2003, 01:52 PM
I have not heard the L300. However, as a frame of reference, I previously owned some Sovereign I's, in S8r configuration. They of course featured the 075 Ring Radiator as opposed to the 077 with acoustic lens. They also had the 375 instead of the LE85. Can anybody venture an opinion on the sonic differences between the 075 and 077 or the L300 vs. the Sovereingn, in general?

BTW, I sold my Sovereigns about this same time last year in response to a WTB ad on this site for some Altec Barcelona's or JBL S8R's. The Buyers name was Matt. I'd like to get ahold of him but I've since lost his contact information when my hard drive on my lap top crashed a few months ago. :( Does anyone know Matt in Carrolton, TX or know his userid?

Thanks again,

Kevin

Mr. Widget
09-12-2003, 12:23 AM
"Can anybody venture an opinion on the sonic differences between the 075 and 077 or the L300 vs. the Sovereingn, in general?"

The 077 can sound very harsh, but if used properly it can sound wonderful. It has a much more extended top end and can add a real sense of air to the speaker. It needs to be properly balanced and crossed over fairly high at 9 to 10KHz and I prefer a steep 18dB/ octave slope (third order)

The 375 is a much smoother, more natural sounding mid than the LE85.

The LE15A with PR15 have a fat boomy bottom end that I find less natural than the 136A of the L200B or L300.

My recommendation would be to get the L200s if you like their appearance and the price is right. Since they have already been modified the purists hopefully won't dump on this suggestion too hard, but if they have the LE15B sell off all the components, if they have the 136A keep the woofer and crossover and add a 375 or pro variant 2440 with the 2" short exponential horn and lens (it will bolt right in place. do not move the speaker much with the 375 bolted in as it's great mass will break the baffle) and add the 077. You will only need a high pass filter for the 077 as you can allow the 375 to "run out" as in the 4350.

This system will better a 4343 in some respects and will be more living room friendly.

Audiokarma
09-12-2003, 12:42 AM
Thanks for your thoughts.

"You will only need a high pass filter for the 077 as you can allow the 375 to "run out" as in the 4350"

Would the use of the N7000 have any merit or would it cross over too low or be an unnecessary expense?

Regards,

Kevin

Audiokarma
09-12-2003, 12:53 AM
BTW, what kind of roll off can be expected of the LE85 in the L200 in stock configuration?

If the LE85 were replaced with a 375, what kind of roll off are we talking about if left to "run out" as in the 4350?

With just the use of a high pass on the 077, how much duplication of frequency response would be produced between the 077 and 375? Is there any bulge in the frequency curve in this region? Thanks again in advance.

Mr. Widget
09-12-2003, 12:58 AM
The N7000 and N8000 are some of the reasons that people bad mouth the 075 and 077.

If you simply parallel the HF section of the 3107 crossover shown below with your input and use the 800Hz crossover from the L200B or another 800Hz crossover you will have much better results.

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/3107%20Network.pdf

Mr. Widget
09-12-2003, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by Audiokarma
BTW, what kind of roll off can be expected of the LE85 in the L200 in stock configuration?

If the LE85 were replaced with a 375, what kind of roll off are we talking about if left to "run out" as in the 4350?

With just the use of a high pass on the 077, how much duplication of frequency response would be produced between the 077 and 375? Is there any bulge in the frequency curve in this region? Thanks again in advance.

The LE85 sags a bit out to 15 KHz with some midrange peakiness and then rolls off a bit steeper after 15KHz.

The 375 rolls off like a rock at 10 KHz, which is why JBL designed the 3107 crossover the way they did. Due to this sharp roll off you can bring in the 077 at 10KHz to very good effect.

Personally I prefer the 376/2441 variant and use the 3155 crossover as in the 4355. At this point we are complicating things a bit though. Basically if you stick to my first suggestion, it would be fairly simple to implement and would yield outstanding results.

sonofagun
09-14-2003, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Audiokarma
Greetings,

I am going to look at a pair of L200's this evening. The original Walnut Veneer has apparently been redone in Oak. I am told it is a quality job done professionally by a skilled cabinet maker. I have not seen them yet to judge for myself.

I would appreciate any opinions as to the effect on the value of these speakers; good, bad, or indifferent.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Kevin

Well, did you get them? What condition were their foam grilles in? Bet, they'll need new ones (ahem). :D

Audiokarma
09-14-2003, 11:56 AM
I've been unable to catch up with the owner to see them as she's been pretty busy getting ready to leave for a week's vacation starting today. Last time I talked to her it sounded like she was struggling with some type of "separation anxiety" with letting them go. Must be some kind of sentimental attachment.

I'm told the original grilles are intact and in perfect condition. Yeah right, if that were true I'm sure I could sell the grilles to an L300 owner for more than what the L200's are worth. Ha, Ha. Actually, the grills have been replaced by some kind of metal mesh screen. I'm naturally curious to see what these really look like. I'll keep you posted if I'm ever able to nail her down and see them.

Robh3606
09-14-2003, 12:23 PM
Hello Kevin

The grills for the L300 and L200 are completely different. The L300 had a box frame with streched fabric. It was 3 dimensional and used pegs to attach to the front. The L200 has a sculptured foam grill glued to what is essentially a custom aluminum door/window screen frame. So its entirely possible the frame is intact but the foam is normally long gone. The frame fit inside the enclosure walls. Remove an L300 grill and you have a flat baffle, remove an L200 and the drivers are recessed several inches from the cabinet edge.

Rob:)

sonofagun
09-14-2003, 12:30 PM
Maybe it's "semi-mental" attachment?

I made replacement grilles (with all those vertical grooves) - darn if JBL didn't have some great looking grille designs!

When "nailing her down" - what size nails you plan on using? Sounds kinky. Can the rest of us watch?:hmm::):cool: :rolleyes: :D :biting:

Audiokarma
09-14-2003, 04:24 PM
Hey Rob,

I'm wondering if those are still the original mesh frames if they could be covered in a grill cloth material?

With the recessed drivers on the L200 were there any diffraction issues?

Audiokarma
09-14-2003, 04:30 PM
SOG,

Yeah I thought about adding a comment about some kind of "misplaced" sentimental value but I figured that would naturally be assumed.

As for nailing her down, that does seem a bit kinky but since I haven't met her yet, I couldn't tell you if she was in to it or not.

Along that train of thought, I'm sure you were wondering what I meant by "seeing them" :D

Well, I suppose I better be careful in case she tries to do some homework on these puppies and stumbles on to this site...