xlr or speakercable for long distance

[Figge]

question: i have speakers at the oposite side of the room from the amps and have 10meters of speakercable for each speaker....was wandering if i should put the amp behind the speakers and use short cables and then use balanced xlr betwen pre-amp and the amp....thats 10m xlr instead of 10speakercable? would this be better?


regards fredrik

[jblnut]

I think you're better off noise-wise using the speaker cable as the longer run. Long runs of low signal preamp cables can pick up noise in a big hurry. Just use some large speaker cables and you'll be fine. Nothing that big Yamaha can't handle :) .

jblnut



question: i have speakers at the oposite side of the room from the amps and have 10meters of speakercable for each speaker....was wandering if i should put the amp behind the speakers and use short cables and then use balanced xlr betwen pre-amp and the amp....thats 10m xlr instead of 10speakercable? would this be better?


regards fredrik

[pelly3s]

either way will be the same, because 10m of balanced cable wouldnt pick up any noise, well shouldnt. so it would be easier to stick with what you have

[scott fitlin]

Both schools say long signal runs do better with balanced lines, less induced noise. But #1 school likes interconnects as short as possible, especially if your unbalanced!

Number 2 school says locate your amps as close as possible to your speakers and keep the speaker cables as short as possible, yeilding the highest damping factor, and best power transfer.

Both work, will you hear a difference? I dont know! I do know a speaker manufacturer told me personally that if you keep your amps close to your speakers, and use heavy gauge speaker wire ( 10ga ) you will get better and tighter bass!

[Figge]

ok so should i go for bigger speaker cables? how big? you all know about the jbl bindingposts......i would have to modify the speakers

[scott fitlin]

ok so should i go for bigger speaker cables? how big? you all know about the jbl bindingposts......i would have to modify the speakersBeing that ive never tried the short speaker cable, big gauge wire, and amps next to the speakers, I might want to hear from someone else if it does in fact make a difference! The closest I get to this is that I use double 10ga runs to my subs! But they are 50ft, and 75ft runs!

10ga should be fine! To fit the wire into the JBL binding posts I would thin the bare ends of the wire just enough to fit into the binding posts!

[boputnam]

Long runs of low signal preamp cables can pick up noise in a big hurry. That is not correct.

IMO, if you have the option you should get the amps close to the speakers as possible.

Balanced cables are designed for long runs and noise rejection. Think of it - all pro systems have the console somewhere in the house, sending a balanced run to stage where the amp racks are. Noise levels are very low. This also saves / preserves the damping factor / output impedence of the amps, which we all know is negatively impacted by the additive resistance of speaker runs. Therefore, keep speaker runs short as practicable. Your amps will operate more efficiently. Period.

[Figge]

That is not correct.

IMO, if you have the option you should get the amps close to the speakers as possible.

well i have...only need to find 2 xlr cables...probably not cheap, maybe some old cables frome used gear shop? what am i looking for? now nada about pro cables

btw is there some way to get balanced xlr from rca? some adaptor or? thing is my cd and power amp has xlr so that will be the test but my preamp dont...would be great if there was a way to get it work so i dont have start looking for a new..

[scott fitlin]

well i have...only need to find 2 xlr cables...probably not cheap, maybe some old cables frome used gear shop? what am i looking for? now nada about pro cables

btw is there some way to get balanced xlr from rca? some adaptor or? thing is my cd and power amp has xlr so that will be the test but my preamp dont...would be great if there was a way to get it work so i dont have start looking for a new..You do not need expensive wire for cables! Good cable utilizing Neutrik XLR connectors and West Penn or Belden 22awg, 2 conductor plus ground makes fine interconnects!

You can order the wire and connectors from Parts Express, and is as good as anything, as long as you solder your connections decently!

Parts express also has a variety of XLR to RCA or 1/4in adaptors!

[Mike Caldwell]

Hello
If your pre amp already has low impedence balanced outputs your all set to go with the xlr cabling. If the pre amp only has the standard high imp. RCA outputs you will need more than just a hard wired type of adaptor to make the high impedence output low impedence balanced to truly take advantage of the benifits of a balanced signal path. What you would need is in pro sound what we call a DI box ( direct insert or injection ) they come in two different styles passive using only a good quality transformer or active that uses op amps and sometimes a transformer to do the high to low impedence balanced coversion. The active models do require a power source with either an internal battery or supplied from an audio mixer or external power supply via the xlr cable. If you choose to go with the XLR cables to the amps and need the DI box dont skimp on the model you get as you will be adding another stage in your signal path. Good ones would be from BSS, Radial, ARX, Klark Teknik, the upper end Whirlwinds to name a few. Many offer stereo models.
Balanced cable can be ran several hundred feet either mic or line level signal
with no problem.
After saying all of that......your 10 meter/33 feet speaker cable runs are not really that long with some 12 or 10 gauge cable your all set!

Below is a copy of a post I made a year ago, maybe more to someones question about balanced and unbalanced cabling, it kinda explains how a balanced signal path works and does what it does..........

As far as hearing a difference between a balanced and unbalanced connections not really......if the balanced inputs and outputs signals are of the same quality that the unbalanced signals are and vise versa. You will hear a difference if your unbalanced connections are picking up any interferance. As the other have said unbalanced cabling is only good for up to about 20 feet or so not only is noise pick up an issue but depending on the cable you can start to lose some high frequecny signal. The high impeadance of the outputs and inputs in conjunction with the capacitance of the cable acts as a filter for high frequencies. To realize the advantage of balanced cabling your equipment needs to provide balanced inputs and outputs.
Balanced inputs and outputs are the main type of connection in pro audio where cable runs can be in the hundreds of feet. Most connectors are the three pin XLR and the tip ring sleve 1/4 inch jack. For audio pin #1 is ground, pin 2 is signal + and pin 3 is signal -. When mixing and matching makes models and brands of balanced equipment you need to check what polarity it is. Most equipment uses pin 2 as + and pin 3 as - some older equipment used pin 3 as+ mixing the wrong things together could create phase cancellation. This is simple to take care of by making a cable the flips pin 2 for pin 3 at one end.
I'll try to explain what happens within a balanced audio circut, let me know if this make sense.....
The audio signal being carried on two separate lines out of phase with each other and then summed together at the input of the connected piece of equipment. What this does is cancel any noise that is picked up on the cable. Any noise pick up will be equal on both the + & - lines and at the same phase while the audio is of 180 dregees out of phase between the two lines.
At the input of say an amplifier the - line is inverted to be + and equally summs together with the + audio line, but the inversion of the - line while putting the audio signal in phase with it self will put any picked up noise out of phase and durning the summing process the audio signal remains and the noise is canceled out.


Mike Caldwell

[boputnam]

If your pre amp already has low impedence balanced outputs your all set to go with the xlr cabling. Mike makes the most important point, here - shoulda asked that first! :banghead:

Does your pre-amp have XLR outs? If so, just go find some XLR microphone cables at any audio store. You are good to go. (Unless you develop a ground loop - we'll deal with that later if it occurs...) :p

[Figge]

Mike makes the most important point, here - shoulda asked that first! :banghead:

Does your pre-amp have XLR outs? If so, just go find some XLR microphone cables at any audio store. You are good to go. (Unless you develop a ground loop - we'll deal with that later if it occurs...) :p

well thats the problem!

power amp has it and cd has it....so thougt i´d test with those and see if its worth to go forward with the hole thing....if so i need to get another pre amp or get some thingie that converts my rca outs to xlr.....

really like the pre-amp

[boputnam]

well thats the problem!:rotfl:

There is really no easy way to convert a single-end RCA to a balanced line out.

So, in this situation, try the speaker runs and see if you get a problem. To minimize RF, use twisted pair, large gauge. The twisted pair will help. Alternatively, you could run a shielded cable, doing the same RF rejection (containment) as twisted pair.

What kinda pre-amp is it? Not many have XLR outs - but you could migrate to the Adcom GFP-750, which does... :applaud:

[Figge]

:rotfl:
What kinda pre-amp is it? Not many have XLR outs - but you could migrate to the Adcom GFP-750, which does... :applaud:


Hi bo!

well its a old sony tae-86....tell me more about the adcom....is it good? any other? 2-300 bucks

[boputnam]

The Adcom is great - I got three of them... :o:

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3890&highlight=adcom+gfp-750

But, they are not $300 bucks. eBay has them fairly freqently, upwards of $650.

[JBLnsince1959]

That is not correct.

IMO, if you have the option you should get the amps close to the speakers as possible.

Balanced cables are designed for long runs and noise rejection. Think of it - all pro systems have the console somewhere in the house, sending a balanced run to stage where the amp racks are. Noise levels are very low. This also saves / preserves the damping factor / output impedence of the amps, which we all know is negatively impacted by the additive resistance of speaker runs. Therefore, keep speaker runs short as practicable. Your amps will operate more efficiently. Period.

I agree with Bo BIG time.

[JBLnsince1959]

also, BIG, fat speaker wires are not needed ( even for bass - but OK). Usually the "fatter" the wire the more the mids and highs are distorted.

[Mike Caldwell]

Hello
Here are a couple of links to some interfaces for going high imp. to balanced low imp. They are more of a install unit rather than the DI boxes that that are for portable use.
http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp?baseItem=FP%2DUBC2&cat=INTERFACE&subcat=AUDINT&prodClass=AUDCONV&mfg=&search=0&off=

http://www.markertek.com/Product.asp?baseItem=DP100&cat=INTERFACE&subcat=AUDINT&prodClass=AUDCONV&mfg=&search=0&off=

There are more I'm sure but this catalog source just came to mind.

Mike Caldwell

[Figge]

ok i got the mic cables from a music shop so gonna try tomorrow....quess i´ll have to dump the pre-amp an get a balanced...can be hard on a budget or? must be some old stuff ppl are looking past?

really the only thing i need from a pre is program selector, riia (MM) and a volume pot....hmm maybe subsonic filter

[boputnam]

There are more I'm sure but this catalog source just came to mind.Yea, Mike...

The Matchbox Pro came to mind, too. I had one a while back that was a bit noisy, but they look to have an updated version: http://www.henryeng.com/matchbox.html

But, one of my all-time favorites is the Aphex 124A. Very quiet - invisible.
http://www.aphex.com/124A.htm :thmbsup:

[Hofmannhp]

Hello
If your pre amp already has low impedence balanced outputs your all set to go with the xlr cabling. If the pre amp only has the standard high imp. RCA outputs you will need more than just a hard wired type of adaptor to make the high impedence output low impedence balanced to truly take advantage of the benifits of a balanced signal path. .....Mike Caldwell

hi folks,

writing onehanded , had a meeting between my saw and my fingers,.....ok later.

mike post meets the point....

I had made it with some pro parts shown in the pics
first pic shows a pro balancing card with 10k input impedance unbalanced and 600 ohms output impedance, but with very good transformers. the result is like pro stuff is known

second pic shows a pro line amp with 600 in and 600 out, headroom +22dbm
gigantic transformers included for all io s.

hp

[jblnut]

Good point Bo - for some reason I was thinking in general hi-fi (non-balanced) terms and not what this thread is about - XLR preamp lines.

If (big if) your preamp has the capacity for XLRs then clearly this is the way to go.

jblnut



That is not correct.

IMO, if you have the option you should get the amps close to the speakers as possible.

Balanced cables are designed for long runs and noise rejection. Think of it - all pro systems have the console somewhere in the house, sending a balanced run to stage where the amp racks are. Noise levels are very low. This also saves / preserves the damping factor / output impedence of the amps, which we all know is negatively impacted by the additive resistance of speaker runs. Therefore, keep speaker runs short as practicable. Your amps will operate more efficiently. Period.

[boputnam]

writing onehanded , had a meeting between my saw and my fingers,.....HansPeter - that's terrible news!! :( :blink: :crying:

We ALL hope you will heal fully!!

[Figge]

hi folks,

writing onehanded , had a meeting between my saw and my fingers,.....ok later.

mike post meets the point....

I had made it with some pro parts shown in the pics
first pic shows a pro balancing card with 10k input impedance unbalanced and 600 ohms output impedance, but with very good transformers. the result is like pro stuff is known

second pic shows a pro line amp with 600 in and 600 out, headroom +22dbm
gigantic transformers included for all io s.

hp



pictures says more than a thousand words! i´ll got to get a new pre-amp....gonna be looking for a year but it´ll show up...




and HP thats not good news! is it bad or what? hope some fingers still there, to adjust volume and such....no seriosly what happened?

[Hofmannhp]

pictures says more than a thousand words! i´ll got to get a new pre-amp....gonna be looking for a year but it´ll show up...


thanks all for your health wishes,.....

Figge:
have you thought about the integration of a diy balancing unit into the Sony?
a hq ic with output transformers, two holes in the backplate with xlrs and ready.

made this with two of my preamps, works fine.

hp

ps: thumbs up :thmbsup:

[Hofmannhp]

..... hope some fingers still there, to adjust volume and such.........?

yeah......all fingers where they were needed......wifey is happy again....:smsex: :slink:
hp

[JBLnsince1959]

HP:

sorry to hear about your accident, hope it wasn't too painfull AND glad to hear all fingers are still there and healing OK.

Any tendon damage (?) and will they heal completely?

Anyway, wish you the best....

By the way, any pictures of the jacket :D

take care
rick

[Hofmannhp]

HP:
sorry to hear about your accident, hope it wasn't too painfull AND gald to hear all fingers are still there and healing OK.
Any tendon damage (?) and will they heal completely?
Anyway, wish you the best....
By the way, any pictures of the jacket :D
take care
rick

hi Rick,

thanks for your post, nice to hear you again.

no fear...doctors told me in 6 weeks all will work as before.
I guess this was the revenge for not doing a jbl related job.
the weather for the jacket is comming soon here.
And when i wear it again i will remember take a pic for you..:banghead:

hp

[Figge]

Figge:
have you thought about the integration of a diy balancing unit into the Sony?
a hq ic with output transformers, two holes in the backplate with xlrs and ready.

made this with two of my preamps, works fine.

ok didnt know i could do that....tell me more, this will work as good as a pre-amp with xlrs?

bet your not putting your fingers in the saw again....



regards fredrik

[Hofmannhp]

....tell me more, this will work as good as a pre-amp with xlrs?
regards fredrik

Hi Fredrik,

we need someone who can make some PCBs.......I will also need some better finished ones. For one channel there's the need of about 2 x 3 cm + transformer.

The main thing for HQ is the low noise semiconductor.....MAT 02 or LM 394 as the first stage and this followed by an OP amp like 5532 or....OP27.

Will post the schematic as soon as ready.

HP

[Figge]

hmm...