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Titanium Dome
10-10-2005, 11:04 AM
Since there's been some interest generated in the L Series, here's a thread to start accumulating L Series info and comments. Up front I'll admit this is one of my favorite consumer lines, so I'm happy to start this. :yes:

The L Series consisted of four models, the two-way L1, two-way L3, four-way L5, and four-way L7, with the L7 being the high end speaker. At the end of its model run, the L7 sold for $1000/ea., the L5 for $690/ea., the L3 for $470/ea., and the L1 for $320/ea. in mid 1990s dollars.

A few people have claimed there was an L Center, but I've never seen one or even a picture of one. Anyone having proof is welcome to chime in.

The common charactersitics of the L Series are the real Black Ash veneer enclosures, enclosures that are deeper than they are wide, the slanting of the baffle at the top of each enclosure, the sheer black grilles with plastic frames, and the ubiquitous use of the 035TIA tweeter at the top of the slanted baffle.

Other drivers used included 5", 6.5", 8" and 12" variations, depending on the speaker model and enclosure. Only the L7 had the LE120H-1 woofer, which was mounted on the side of the enclosure, facing the center of the soundstage. Thus the L7 models had right and left configurations. The L7, L5, and L3 also had plastic bases for the user to attach, increasing stability and improving the looks.

The L7 was bi-amp capable, and JBL had a rather long treatise in the L7 Supplement about the virtues of doing so.

The JBL Library has a nice brochure about the L Series here: http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1992-l-series.htm

Titanium Dome
10-10-2005, 11:15 AM
This is the only L Series speaker I haven't owned, though I've heard enough of them. It's a great little bookshelf or stand speaker, but it's kind of inefficient and you can't relly get much of anything below 55Hz out of it.

Still, its 6.5" "woofer and 035TIA tweeter are a good combo, and if you see a pair at a reasonable price, it's worth considering for office or bedroom duty or as a rear channel speaker with more robust L Series speakers up front.

Titanium Dome
10-10-2005, 11:28 AM
While the L3 is still a two-way speaker, it's a significant step up from the L1 (and one I own).

For one thing, the woofer is now a real 8" woofer. For another the enclosure is larger and tuned lower. For another, it's taller and is floor standing.

These characteristics make it ideal for duty as a center speaker in an L Series HT set up IF you have a wall hung plasma or projector screen. The L3 is not so tall as to be impossible to place under these. In fact, I've heard a pair of L3s used as a center channel, next to each other but slightly toed out. It sounded pretty darn good.

As stand alones, they're quite nice, too, and work well out of the box. They're relatively easy to place and set up. They will easily give you a strong 40hz even in less than ideal placement. If you follow the set up instructions, they give slightly lower useful bass and excellent soundstage. They also show strength as an example of good two-way design, and the time alignment created by the receding baffle works well.

Member Johnaec has a pair, I know, and I think he's pretty happy with them. Maybe he'll chime in.

Titanium Dome
10-10-2005, 11:43 AM
To many, the L5 is the high point of the L Series. You can see many, many favorable reviews on the Web, and they tend to sell quite well at auction.

It's no wonder considering the almost perfect size, the wonderful four driver array, and the proportionally good looks that it's a favorite. It has an 8" woofer, a 6.5" midbass, a super 5" midrange, and the 035TIA. The midrange and the tweeter are on the time aligned baffle, while the larger speakers are lower on the flat front baffle.

This is a very, very nice sounding speaker. The huge crossover does a super job of handing off the sound to the speakers; it's seamless. Due to the presence of the midrange driver, the tweeter is crossed over 1kHz higher, resulting in better high frequency performance, plus the midrange clarity is significantly improved.

The 8" woofer handles everything below 170Hz, so it has a lot less to do than the 8" in the L3, which has to head up to 3kHz. This makes a huge difference in low end response. That, plus lower cabinet tuning and bigger volume, gets the sound solidly below 40Hz, easily down to 35Hz before it starts to weaken.

These are so easy to unpack and set up, it's easy to ignore JBL's instructions and just go. But a little patience in placement will yield big results. These are speakers that I think every JBL collector ought to consider, at least for temporary ownership, because they're just so damn amazing for what they cost, especially now on the used market.

Titanium Dome
10-10-2005, 12:31 PM
Here is the statement speaker of the L Series, but it is also the problem child, the black sheep, the mystery, the enigma, the disappointment. It is usually though not universally criticized as being too bright, too strident, too shrill, too weak in the bass, etc.

So did JBL drop the ball on this one? After making three pretty good models at their price point, did they totally screw up the top model? Did they just not know what they were doing? Did they gamble on a design that just wasn't any good? Did they think that they could just do a half-assed job with "new" ideas and people would buy it at a premium price anyway?

Well, those questions only matter if one agrees that the speaker is a disappointment or a disaster. If one believes that the speaker is one of the better contemporary designs in the JBL portfolio, as I firmly do, then those questions are for people who just don't get it.

More on the L7 later.

johnaec
10-10-2005, 02:20 PM
I've got the L3's and a single L1, (it's for sale if someone wants it as a center). I really like the L3's, but need to do a side by side test with my L60T's to see which 8" I might prefer. But both are capable of amazing output, since the cabinets are so large for 8" drivers.

BTW, 'Dome - there is a center that is at least a physical match to the L series, the CL505, (Center - L series - 5" - HF - 5"): http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/CL505%20ts.pdf

I've got one, and it's finished just like the regular L series, but has different drivers - the 5" have cloth surrounds and the HF is soft dome. I believe it sold for close to $400, (it's a drag JBL took down all their old support info, that included pricing...).

John

Titanium Dome
10-10-2005, 03:13 PM
Thanks John for that confirmation. Now I seem to recall the model number you list (CL505) but still have never seen one. Any chance you can give us a few shots, especially of those drivers?

Titanium Dome
10-10-2005, 03:16 PM
Take a look here for 17 reviews by L7 owners. You'll see the opinions are generally quite positive among actual owners. There are one or two exceptions, but you can judge the negativity by the character revealed in the writing.

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/main-speaker/jbl/PRD_119739_1594crx.aspx

One thing I think many longterm owners have in common is the willingness to work to get the set up correct. It pays off big.

johnaec
10-10-2005, 06:53 PM
OK - here are a couple picks of the CL505. It definitely should be considered part of this "L" series, as its finish and grille construction are identical. It's 7" high and 20" wide.

One correction to my earlier comment re: cloth surrounds - they're actually foam, but still not the rubberized surrounds like the bigger speakers. And the HF dome is cloth and very soft.

The cabinet on this one is a little beat up and really dirty, as is the grille, (excuse the poor lighting conditions). And I just realized it's missing the logo... :(

I've seen them on eBay from time to time, often just listed as "JBL Center Speaker", so you have to look close to see if they're the CL505. They usually go for peanuts - most people don't realize how expensive they were.

(Edit: I just checked the price lists posted here, and it appears the CL505 was only produced in 1996 and 1997, and they listed for $330 each.)

I can't really report on the sound, as I've only had it plugged in long enough to be sure everything worked.

John

"Duke" Spinner
10-10-2005, 07:19 PM
Sure looks like an "L"series speaker, don't it .....

Titanium Dome
10-11-2005, 11:42 AM
That's an odd looking tweeter there. I know you've not made a comparison, but I'd like to hear it (or hear about it) in comparison to the 035TIA in all the other L Series models.

Any chance you might hook it up and do a brief comparison for us?

Titanium Dome
10-11-2005, 12:55 PM
The L7 Owner's Manual Supplement spends a little ink on placement of the speakers, then goes on for three and a half pages on "Bi-Wiring and Bi-Amplification." This latter section really covers a lot more than just bi-wiring and bi-amping. Here in L7 Heaven, Part the First, I'll get into placement.

The placement instructions are simple and supported with two detailed drawings. Anyone who reads this and doesn't start with the speakers three feet from the front wall and three feet from the side wall on its respective side, with the side-mounted woofers facing inward, and the fronts angled 10-15 degrees (toe in) is asking for poor performance, and if he complains about it he's a dope. This is the simple, direct, straightforward, diagrammed, optimal placement recommended by the manufacturer. Then put the listener in the 60/60/60 triangle set up JBL recommends in the regular L Series Owner's Manual.

So to the complainers who jam L7s into the corners nearly flat against the side wall: you're idiots!

To the bellyachers who place L7s a foot from the rear wall and four feet from the side walls and three feet from each other with a TV stuck between them: you're morons!

To the whiners who put the woofers facing frontward and the other drivers facing inward: yo, stoopid!

To the gripers who put one next to the wall in the corner and the other two feet forward of the front wall next to an opening into the kitchen: hey, pinhead, get a clue!

The message here is this: PLACEMENT MATTERS.

If you've done any of the above and you're happy, then all I can say is 1) if you're happy, I'm not referring to you and don't mean to offend you, and 2) even if you are happy you could be getting so much more out of these speakers.

Especially on the L7s with their side firing woofers, getting them too close to the front wall increases coupling that results in uneven bass, and getting them too deep into the corners causes boominess. Think about how that side-firing woofer complicates things. :hmm: Placing physical objects between the two woofers, such as TVs, stands, equipment racks, etc., also interferes with the woofer's operation.

So, yes, it's a picky set up, more than the average consumer wants to bother with. He wants to pull 'em out of the cartons, stick 'em in the corner on either side of the TV, and watch Willy Wonka. Most speakers are arranged according to the needs of the room. With L7s, the room must be arranged according to the needs of the speakers. (That's a bit of an overstatement, but you get my point. ;) )

If the room is right and you've got the 60/60/60 triangle that JBL recommends, you're still not quite done, because every room is different. JBL advises that you can have some leeway of about a foot in fine tuning your sound with regard to soundstage, low bass extension, and treble dispersion and imaging. Again, the average consumer is going to say, "Screw this," turn up the tone controls, and think the problem is solved. By carefully adjusting proximity to room corners (closer/farther) and distance from the front wall (nearer/farther) while maintaining the 60/60/60 triangle if possible, you can really find the best environment that your room will provide for top notch L7 sound. Is this a PITA? Yes. Is it worth the trouble? Absolutely.

After keeping my L7s captive in my room in MI for a couple of years, I decided to do it right and changed the room to optimize the speakers. Holy crap! What a difference! :jawdrop: :jawdrop:

Who knows? I'm sure it was a conscious design choice to place the woofers on the side to keep the front baffle narrow and the L Series all looking similar. Maybe the marketing people beat out the engineers who wanted the woofers on the front. Can't really say.

What I can say is that this is a fairly unusual design for JBL, one that is not repeated. It makes the L7 fundamentally different from the other L Series speakers, even though driver complements and enclosure features are shared. It makes it harder to set up and less desirable for many consumer living rooms.

All of that being said, it has very good drivers, great crossovers, fine cabinetry, and a terrific sound. When properly set up and driven (see Part the Second) it's an amazing beast, and a bit unlike any other JBL. It will take a ton of power, and I've always chickened out before the speakers, especially since any amp I own will be driven to clip before the L7 is overpowered. :rockon1:

It's definitely one of my top five JBLs. :bouncy:

johnaec
10-11-2005, 01:10 PM
Any chance you might hook it up and do a brief comparison for us?Yeah, but probably not until this weekend sometime...

John

JBLnsince1959
10-11-2005, 03:04 PM
you're idiots!

you're morons!

yo, stoopid!

hey, pinhead, get a clue!

The message here is this: PLACEMENT MATTERS.



Dome, for GOD SAKES, will you stop beating around the bush and get to the point! :D

Titanium Dome
10-11-2005, 04:05 PM
Well sure, it seems over the top when taken out of context...

:argue: :bash: :nanana:

But my defense is that Widget reminded me about one of the :flamed: -ing :moon: -holes that posted on Audioreview and got my tighties all a-twisty.

JBLnsince1959
10-11-2005, 04:30 PM
No need to defend yourself, your post just struck me as funny, that's all.

and yes, there are some mightly BIG :moon: -holes out there, no need to let them upset you tho...

Titanium Dome
10-12-2005, 10:32 PM
As I wrote above, the L7 Owner's Manual Supplement spends a little space on placement of the speakers, then goes on for three and a half pages on "Bi-Wiring and Bi-Amplification." This latter section really covers a lot more than just bi-wiring and bi-amping. Here in L7 Heaven, Part the Second, I'll get into those latter issues.

The first time I heard the L7 was at ABC Warehouse in Kalamazoo, MI, where the resident audio "geniuses" had done what the L7 Supplement calls "Two-Amp Bi-Wire." (Today a lot of people call this passive bi-amping. JBL also offered examples of One-Amp Bi-Wire, Three-Amp Bi-Wire, and Four-Amp Bi-Wire.)

Anyway, I was impressed with how LOUD the L7s would go in that configuration, and I must admit I wasn't really focusing on quality as much as quantity of sound. The L7s and amps were set up on a super-sized end cap in the audio dept, so the sound quality was marginal at best in that environment. I went back a couple of times over the months and the speakers never sold. Too expensive, I believed.

I admitted to the salesman that the L7s looked bitchin' with those four thick wires and big amps behind 'em, and he tried to pitch them to me. However, it was clear that he needed to sell them more than I needed to buy them, so a marathon session of "I can walk away with no regrets and you're still stuck with the speakers ensued."

Eventually, I walked out with the L7s, the heavy duty cables, and both Soundcraftsmen A200 amps for $1300. :rotfl: Oh, sometimes I kill myself!

Reading the L7 Supplement was like a new world to me.
:) Bi-wiring!
:) Reduction of intermodulation! :wtf:
:) Frequency-optimized cables! (skin effect? ETPC vs.OFHC--wha-a?)
:) Amplifier flexibility! (tubes and SS together? mono amps?)
:) Bi-wiring connections!
:D Bi-amplification! (which people call active bi-amping these days)
I know the audio agnostics among us long ago debunked and demythologized much of this information, but it was the Holy Grail to me, so I followed it religiously, and I might add, to great effect.

So, here are my subjective conclusions about optimizing the L7 from the standpoint of cabling, wiring scheme, and amplification.

First, get rid of the grounding straps. Even if you're going to drive them with a single stereo amp, remove the straps and replace them with short jumpers made from the same wire you're using from the amp to the speaker. Those straps (as I recently learned again :banghead: in my Performance Series experience) really ruin the upper frequency performance and muddy up the midrange. Almost any wire is better than the straps.

Second, you're feeding two crossovers and four speakers in an L7. Give 'em some juice. The brochure may read "minimum 35 watts" but don't believe it. If you want harsh, metallic, shrill sound, then stick a wimpy amp on these babies and clip the hell out of it. At a minimum, 150W/ch is needed. Over the years, I tried driving them with a very nice 55W/ch Kenwood integrated amp, a 100W/ch receiver, and a 125W/ch amp. When I finally got back to using one of the 190W/ch A200s, I finally realized what potential these babies had. This dramatically improves low volume dynamics and makes loud listening thrilling.

Third, try Two-, Three-, or Four-amp Bi-wiring as JBL describes it. Separating the LF crossover from the HF crossover and adding one, two, or three extra power supplies to the power chain gives you a real shot at achieving the kinds of sonic "reproduction in a bi-wired system which will be played at realistic concert hall levels." Two A200s with twice the power supply capacity really let these things suck the juice, which they like to do.

Of course, you can get really good results with a single wire connection to a high power amp, but my subjective experience is that doubled power supply capacity (not simply "twice" the amplifier power rating) really helps.

Maybe next I'll mock up a diagram or two showing a couple of the Two-Amp Bi-Wire schemes and give my impressions of how they affect the L7s output.

"Duke" Spinner
10-12-2005, 10:42 PM
my L-7's suck up every Watt that Crown K-2 as to give.....:o:

i'd love to bi-amp ..gotta find a crown MX-4 soon ...!

ojom
12-11-2005, 10:04 AM
Hello, new here, I have a question about my L5s. I have run these with a Pioneer spec-1 pre amp into a Marantz 250 amp, to great sounding heights as the Marantz is 125 old school watts per channel. I also love the Pioneer Spec it seems very much just a pass through..transparent even. Currently due to the 250 being in need of repair I am running the L5's through a vintage Marantz 2250b reciever..you know it sounds fine, not as nice as the other set up but still clear and punchy and...well you all know how the L5's sound(God I love em). The 2250b is rated at 50 watts per channel. BTW what would that mean in todays "watts"? My actual question however is about the 035 tweeters, they seem to be a bit fragile as I have run through two of them...they just stop working. Jeez are they expensive even on Ebay..do others have this as well? I have cannibalized my L1 for it's tweeter? Are the 035's known to be fragile or prone to burn out?

speakerdave
12-11-2005, 10:54 AM
Whoa! Slow down that volume control. You may be clipping your amp and running a lot of high frequency grung into you tweeters (especially with that 50-watter).

David

Zilch
12-11-2005, 11:15 AM
Invest $50 in a Radio Shack SPL meter. Standard equipment, and you can do fun stuff with it like spectrum analysis (plot your system's response curve using a tone disc.)

[AND harass your local bus company for exceeding the city's allowable noise level limits. :p ]

jim3860
12-11-2005, 11:51 AM
Whoa! Slow down that volume control. You may be clipping your amp and running a lot of high frequency grung into you tweeters (especially with that 50-watter).

David I agree, i have a pair of L100ts that use the identical tweeter 035 ti and no problems yet, i have used a adcom 200 watt amp wide open with them and the only damage was to my ears,:p the best way to kill a tweeter is to clip them with an underpowered amp. HAPPY HOLIDAYS to all

ojom
12-11-2005, 01:55 PM
Ha ha ha..What makes you think I was cranking it? I really have not with the 50 watter. No, this last time they had just been sitting for a while unused and today I hook em up and....no tweeter. The only tthing I can think of is that my house got a surge from a summer storm that knocked out my TV the L5's were my mains for that system and on the same surge protector perhaps the surge fried the tweeter as well....but I am not convinced. So do guys think that my Marantz 250 is underpowered for these speakers? I know the 2250b is a little short for them. The 250 really made them sing....sheesh, I had no idea what these speakers were until I ran them with that big Marantz.

jim3860
12-11-2005, 02:41 PM
Ha ha ha..What makes you think I was cranking it? I really have not with the 50 watter. No, this last time they had just been sitting for a while unused and today I hook em up and....no tweeter. The only tthing I can think of is that my house got a surge from a summer storm that knocked out my TV the L5's were my mains for that system and on the same surge protector perhaps the surge fried the tweeter as well....but I am not convinced. So do guys think that my Marantz 250 is underpowered for these speakers? I know the 2250b is a little short for them. The 250 really made them sing....sheesh, I had no idea what these speakers were until I ran them with that big Marantz. Hmmm, Well if you weren't cranking on them when the tweeter went south, and you had a big surge that killed your tv, my guess is yes it was the surge that did them in. There are speakers out there that are famous for tweeter blowouts but not that one. As far as your Marantz 250 goes im not sure if its underpowered or not. I think you would be a better judge of that since you have used it. how loud do you like it?. if you r happy at levels that it can put out fine. there always seems to be a gain in bass when you go to a more powerful amp. perhaps if its possible borrow a friends amp for a day that has more power, then you will know for sure. By the way marantz makes nice stuff IMHO. HAPPY HOLIDAYS :)

ojom
12-11-2005, 03:10 PM
Well I feel great about the amp. Just curious about what other people are using with their L5's. Thank you all BTW. I also tried a Hafler 500...did not bring out the clarity in the high frequencies like the vintage Marantz. The Hafler was rated at 250 WPC..it did not seem like double the power...and it was muddier all around.

ojom
12-15-2005, 09:00 PM
I was just wondering are all replacement diaphragms for this tweeter 8 ohm? I know it is a 6 ohm speaker..but each driver is 8 ohm correct? I just want to order the right replacement.

Titanium Dome
12-23-2005, 03:29 PM
Okay, so a couple of weeks ago I trekked out to Palm Desert, CA to grab a pair of minty L7s for under $600.

I hooked up with my traveling amp and iPod. The traveling amp is a Soundcraftsment S860 in a hardborad, metal, and carpeted case. It's a bitchin' companion for getting a couple hundred Watts per channel out into the field. Because the iPod puts out both a straight signal (via dock connector) or a gained signal (via miniplug), it's great for field use.

Anyway, they looked great and sounded good, so I loaded the beauties into the back of the Sorento and trekked back to LA, stopping for a few minutes at the Morongo Casino to see if I could earn enough to pay for the speakers. Not quite, but I got a bit back anyway.

I put them in the basement studio, otherwise known as the garage, where other L7s, some L5s, an L3, some SVA1800s, the L250s, the L60Ts and the LX300s all live. They sounded terrific there, better than before (as expected).

My practical side wondered, [i]Why did you buy these?" My JBL demon replied, "Because." As I listened to how very good the LE120H-1s were at producing bass, I glanced at the LE14H-1 looking at me from the L250 behind the L7. Hmmm. I wonder?

Soon the grille over one of the LE120H-1s was off and the driver was out. Hmm. I wonder?

A few quick internal measurements, some volume calculations, a quick look at the crossover schematic... Hmmm. I wonder?

Over to the L250, tape measure out, a reading here, another there... Hmmm. I wonder?

Back to the opening in the L7... Hmm. I wonder.

L9 anyone?

mech986
12-23-2005, 04:03 PM
Hey TD,

You're JBL demon is saying " Heh, Heh, Heh" :biting: :idea:

Regards,

Bart

Titanium Dome
08-06-2006, 03:41 AM
Hey TD,

You're JBL demon is saying " Heh, Heh, Heh" :biting: :idea:

Regards,

Bart

Well, the L9s aren't quite ready for prime time, but I've got to say that the L7 cabinets present some unique "opportunities." One definitely doesn't want to do an LE14H-1 install in an L7 cabinet that lacks the stablizing base. There's certainly a devil in that detail.

Titanium Dome
08-06-2006, 03:46 AM
A lot of L3, L5, and L7 pairs have gone on ebay lately, some without any bids due to unrealistic opening bids asked by the sellers.

Still some of these should have sold at the opening bid price as the components were easily worth twice the opening amount. Hopefully this will signal a decline in price for these models in the short term, making them an even better deal IMO. There's a lot of restoration and modification work to be done with this series.

VintageJBL
08-06-2006, 02:50 PM
A few weeks ago I snatched up a pair of L3's in great condition off of ebay. They were posted around 10:00 pm on a Sunday night with a "Buy It Now" price of $175. As a bonus, they were located only 15 miles from my house. I made a quick impulse buy about 1/2 hour after the listing was up. They turned out to be in very good condition and seller was the original owner. He had them in storage for several years and decided to get rid of them.

I haven't had much of a chance to listen to them but I finally got then hooked up in the exercise area of the basement. The sound is very similar to the L60T speakers which happens to be one of my favorite consumer speakers for JBL. I have a pair of L60T's in the master bedroom and for this type of use they are just about perfect. If I had to choose right now I would say the L60Ts are more to my taste than the L3's but that is subject to change over time.

johnaec
08-06-2006, 06:46 PM
I've got both L60T's and L3's myself - like you say, very closely matched.

John

Titanium Dome
08-06-2006, 08:10 PM
I've got L60T and L3, too. ;)

lastcobra
08-10-2006, 04:01 AM
Hey guys new to this forum, but obviously love JBL. I need a little help though, I am the original owner of l5's and l1's. The problem is the surround is coming loose from the 8 inch woofer in the l5 and I am trying to find somewhere to repair the sub. Any ideas? By the way you are correct the l5 is a wonderful sounding speaker, and I would put it up against almost any speaker of its' size. I noticed that you have a brochure of the L series. I actually have a L series brochure that shows a preliminary photo of the L5 in it, and it has two 6.5 inch woofers not the 6 and 8.

Titanium Dome
08-10-2006, 07:17 AM
Welcome, lastcobra.

If you tell us where you are, we can give better advice as far as referrals. Also, is the surround coming loose from the frame or from the speaker's cone?

lastcobra
08-10-2006, 10:29 AM
I am In Memphis Tn. and the surround is coming loose from the cone.

Zilch
08-10-2006, 11:01 AM
http://www.jblproservice.com/service/tennessee.html

bonanzadave
08-10-2006, 08:54 PM
If I made a 1 1/2 hr round tripper I could have a pair of L5s for $225.00. Then what will I have to put into an amp? Dave.

Titanium Dome
08-10-2006, 09:15 PM
Any decent 50W/ch to 150W/ch used amp or receiver will drive them fine. If you're putting them in a small to medium room and you like moderate listening levels, a 50W/ch vintage receiver or integrated amp is all you'll ever need. If you are placing them in a medium to large room and you like to kick out the jams, then 150W/ch (or more) will prevent you from clipping the amp and destroying the speakers.

IOW, if you intend to play them loud, do not underpower them. If you've got 200W/ch or even 300W/ch, they'll take it, but they'll be insanely loud at peak output. Going from 150W to 200W or 300W is a relatively modest increase after all, but you gain some additional headroom.

Of course, I'm talking about real power here, not the "peak" power that some el cheapo amps and receivers talk about.

lastcobra
08-12-2006, 02:42 PM
I am In Memphis Tn. and the surround is coming loose from the cone. Thanks for the info I will check them out monday.:applaud:

Titanium Dome
10-20-2006, 11:07 PM
This will make the thread easier to find.

Here's what I recently wrote another member who PMed me about L7s vs. L5s.


My standard answer is that the L5s are better out of the box for ease of set up and placement than the L7s. Any LF deficiencies can be accommodated with a sub or two.

However, for pure stereo enjoyment, I far prefer a pair of L7s as four-way, full-range systems. Once the L7s are properly set up, there's a kind of magic about their imaging, soundstage, and presence that the L5s and a sub can't quite match. It may be the coupling of the side firing LE120H-1 woofers, but it really is better, IF everything is set up correctly. Getting there can take some doing.

L7s are great stereo speakers. L5s are very good stereo speakers, and L5s, L3s, and L1s can be employed successfully in surround sound configurations, supported by subs. I would not recommend L7s in a surround set up.

I have one pair of L5s. I have three pairs of L7s plus a single one for parts. I obviously don't need all those L7s, but when I see them going for peanuts, I have to get them before someone buys them and parts them out. The cabinets are part of the specialness, and once the parts are redistributed, the cabinets get thrown out and will never be reproduced.

Hope this helps. :)

clmrt
10-21-2006, 05:49 AM
Since we're here....

Finally got the two SVS drivers into their 1.2cf sealed boxes. No aperiodic vents yet, need to get jigsaw blades. I've settled on 80hz for the XO.

Right now the subs get the ABI 600A, and the L5's get the HK PA2200. Shortly, however, I expect to take delivery on a UREI 6260 which will displace the HK. Maybe I'll bridge the HK for center duty.

If anyone has ever used a JBL CL505 / S Center / HT4V with the L series, let me know what you think. Using an Athena C1 right now, and it's wonderful in it's own right, but not a sonic match at all.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 11:03 AM
I knew I had to get to this sooner or later, so here we go.

Below is a shot of my dungeon/shop/garage/ set up for a little listening and viewing gathering I hosted. Not visible is the 5.1 surround consisting of SVA2100 fronts, SVA Center, and SVA1800 surrounds.

For stereo listening from outside to inside:

L250
XPL200
L100 (on top of XPL200)
L7
Rack full of stuff.

(That's a Sim2 SVD800HD in the foreground.)

oznob
10-21-2006, 12:11 PM
Hey Ti,
What kind of amps do you have at the bottom of your rack, QSC's? By the way, great stuff, would love to come by if I ever get to SoCal!:yes:

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 01:10 PM
Hey Ti,
What kind of amps do you have at the bottom of your rack, QSC's? By the way, great stuff, would love to come by if I ever get to SoCal!:yes:


Those are the new Haflers I got off ebay a few months ago.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11795&highlight=hafler

Check it out. :bouncy:

Sooner or later I'm gonna get back to that LHS weekend. :banghead: Then I'll invite all you guys.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 01:15 PM
For this multichannel experience I loaded the Haflers, the trusty FAPT1, and the XP50 DVD-A player. The Niles IPC6 controls all the power up and shut down duties. The FAPT1 plus the Soundcraftsmen AE2000 gives a ton of control.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 01:17 PM
To deliver a little nostalgia and sanity to the evening, the L100s were driven by the vintage Kenwood stack and Technics turntable.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 01:22 PM
Okay, so the L7s are in the middle of this line up because they have the side firing woofers. The coupling of the drivers' output is an important element of its sound. I created a lot of space around the amps and moved the L7s forward to allow this to occur.

Here is a look at the left side with drivers exposed. Notice how when properly placed with woofers to the inside the driver alignment is on the inside. If you place them with the drivers aligned to the outside (as some have done) it destroys the sound balance.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 01:32 PM
Here's a shot of the three forward facing drivers. The baffle is a composite material that is canted back for time alignment.

On top of the L7 is the Pro Co RMS-1, which allows instantaneous speaker switching at any load and any power rating to 400W.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 01:32 PM
With the drivers out of the time aligned baffle, it's easy to see the exacting fit of the openings. The 704G and 708G-1 are housed in closed chambers, while the 035TIA has no restrictions behind it.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 01:35 PM
Down below, after careful and tedious removal of the round grille, the LE120H-1 looks out from its side mounted position. I really like this driver.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 01:37 PM
Once removed, the woofer chamber is revealed. It's got a lot of batting in it, and the speaker enclosure is reinforced and thick on this side.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 02:40 PM
Four pretty drivers all in a row.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 02:44 PM
Here's a side look at driver elevations. In the background are the Technics GX710, Soundcraftsmen 2215-R, Northridge E50s, and XPL160s.

Oh yeah, I like a little "cream" in my coffee. :spin:

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 02:46 PM
Everyone knows this driver:

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 02:56 PM
The midrange 704G is less well known. JBL lists it as a 5" composite driver. It can still be purchased for around $97. This cast frame driver is a very nice sounding midrange.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 02:59 PM
The 8" midbass driver is the 708G-1. Again, it's a cast frame driver with a composite cone. It's very strong right down to 180Hz.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 03:05 PM
The famous LE120H-1 anchors the system from its side mounted location. Mounting this driver on the side allows for a narrow front baffle, and the inward facing aspect puts both L and R L7s in a position to reinforce each other. This is a both a beautiful thing and a pain in the butt, as positioning, auditioning, and manipulating are all part of the placement process.

This is one of my all time favorite 12" drivers, and when the L7 is working right with these, it's hard to say that the LE14H-1s in the L250s do any better. In fact, given their narrower frequency output demands, the LE120H-1s sound more articulate to me.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 03:08 PM
Until I got the HTPS400 sub, this L7 woofer grille was the only round JBL grille type I had. In either case, round grilles are a pain in the butt to remove without nicking the cabinet. They're definitely not made to be removed often.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 03:12 PM
There are two distinct networks in the L7. The HF network is attached inside the cabinet near the top of the LE120H-1 woofer enclosure. As it was not worth removing just to take a picture, I stuck the camera inside and hoped for the best.

The result is acceptable. This network is connected direct to the HF speaker terminals.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 03:15 PM
The LF network was easy to remove, so I took it out for better illustration. From the back, it looks like any other JBL bi-wire/bi-amp terminal.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 03:18 PM
These two views show the top and side respectively. It's easy to see that the black and red HF leads pass right through to connect to the HF network above.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 03:19 PM
From the back, the LF network is revealed. There's something interesting there.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 03:21 PM
What's this? A jumper. This must be the internal modification JBL talks about when true external bi-amping is desired.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 03:34 PM
To save anyone searching, here's the schematic for the networks. These are obviously a big part of what make an L7 an L7, and they are more sophisticated than the L5 four-way networks.

Titanium Dome
10-21-2006, 04:04 PM
Comparing and contrasting the four-ways I have in the dungeon/shop/garage illustrates why I like so many different speakers. None is perfect because there is no perfect sound, except perhaps the original performance...maybe. :dont-know

L250: It's a beautiful, smooth, balanced speaker with prodigious output. It's weak in the highs by my standards, and the midrange is a bit "tight" and breathless compared to the others. The midbass and woofer are just about perfectly matched, and they are powerful performers.

XPL200: Due to personal preference, the Ti tweeter and midrange sound the best to me. They're open, spacious, articulate, and alive. Their clarity is unparalleled in this group (but the Performance Series will beat them.) Sadly, the midbass is an underachiever and disappoints, while the 12" woofer is an agile performer whose output is quite adequate if not outstanding.

L7: The tweeter is very nice of course, and the midrange is full and front, though the XPL's combo is better. The midbass is just as nice sounding as the L250's and the woofer is every bit as strong as the L250's with the added benefit of covering a narrower frequency band. It is articulate, sharp, and controlled; yet it can really kick out the bass when called upon.

In most rooms, the XPL200 will be a good performer, easily sounding better than the other two in many installations.

The L250 will win in any larger environment. By its very physical appearance it will command the space, and the sound will live up to the appearance. It can create an awesome presence, even today. It will gag in a small environment, strangled to death by the room's choke hold.

The L7 in the right room and set up correctly will knock either of these two out of the house. However, it will take more time and effort to achieve this, and if you're just going to compromise and make them go where they look the best to keep the peace, then don't bother. They will suck, and you'll say they are shitty and shrill, and you'll call me a dumb ass :moon: who doesn't know what he's talking about. :scold:

These are a rare and unique departure in JBL speaker design. I think the reality check for JBL was that the average person was not going to (be able to) set them up correctly, and then the dumbasses were going to whine and complain and rate them poorly. So why bother?

I have hope that there are people here who would take the time to understand the L7 and take the time and energy to do it right. People who are willing to work to get better sound. People who understand that the room is part of the process, especially with an innovative design approach. People who get why so many people buy Bose and some of the other popular crap brands because they sound the same no matter where you put them or how little effort you put into it. People who own and enjoy L1, L3, and L5 pairs and can see that these wonderful boxes are just the design leftovers from the great and challenging L7, the best expression, the finest example, and the highest achievement of the JBL L Series (1990s).

:applaud:

johnaec
10-22-2006, 11:25 AM
Ti Dome - thanks for such a detailed review!

One thing I'm thinking of trying is switching the 6" 116H-1 mid-driver in the XPL200A's I have with the 6" 706G-1 driver from the L series - it's a much heavier duty driver than the 116H-1. See here: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116726&postcount=112

John

Titanium Dome
10-22-2006, 07:38 PM
I'd like to hear how it compares.

JBLnsince1959
10-23-2006, 04:26 AM
Comparing and contrasting the four-ways I have in the dungeon/shop/garage illustrates why I like so many different speakers. None is perfect because there is no perfect sound, except perhaps the original performance...maybe. :dont-know

L250: It's a beautiful, smooth, balanced speaker with prodigious output. It's weak in the highs by my standards, and the midrange is a bit "tight" and breathless compared to the others. The midbass and woofer are just about perfectly matched, and they are powerful performers.

XPL200: Due to personal preference, the Ti tweeter and midrange sound the best to me. They're open, spacious, articulate, and alive. Their clarity is unparalleled in this group (but the Performance Series will beat them.) Sadly, the midbass is an underachiever and disappoints, while the 12" woofer is an agile performer whose output is quite adequate if not outstanding.

L7: The tweeter is very nice of course, and the midrange is full and front, though the XPL's combo is better. The midbass is just as nice sounding as the L250's and the woofer is every bit as strong as the L250's with the added benefit of covering a narrower frequency band. It is articulate, sharp, and controlled; yet it can really kick out the bass when called upon.



So Dome, how would you compare the PS series to these speakers? ( just to complete the 4-way discussion)

Titanium Dome
10-23-2006, 10:58 AM
So Dome, how would you compare the PS series to these speakers? ( just to complete the 4-way discussion)

Unfortunately, I've not had them in the same room running the same gear, so I can only give a comparison based on indirect evidence. As you know, this process is rife with all kinds of problems.

Anyway, my impression is that the Performance Series stack has most of the positives and few of the negatives of the other four-ways discussed here. It has the open, spacious, articulate clarity of the highs and mids of the XPL200, with a little less brightness. It has the powerful midbass of the L250 and L7. It compares favorably to the bass of the L250, with the LE14H-3 outperforming its sibling in its modern iteration. It beats the XPL200's bass, and is as nimble as the L7's, but not quite as much of a full impact at the low end as the LE120H-1 provides when the L7s are properly set up and the woofers are working together. OTOH, my recent addition of the HTPS400 handily remedied this slight deficit.

Looking just at the L7 and the PS stack, I'd line it up this way. The 035TIA is technically a better tweeter, and the 704G and 708G-1 composite drivers are very good, but the PT800's Ti trio really has so much better uniformity of sound that it's far more appealing to me. From 130Hz to 22kHz, the sound is very much the same—and it's a sound I love.

The cabinets are quite different, the L7 being narrower

I really dig the LE14H-3 and think it's one of the best, but I suppose it's inhibited a bit by the PS1400 enclosure. The LE120H-1 seems ideally set in the L7 cabinet, and, again, the side-firing reinforcement is a sonic blessing (OR a huge, irritating, evil curse if set up wrong).

The PS stack is the winner to my ears, but not by that much. If you consider L7s have gone for as low as $250 a pair, the value equation turns upside down. As a stereo pair, the L7 gives up very little, and gives a bit back, too.

If I could only have one pair for stereo, L7s or PS stacks... :dont-know

In a HT environment, PS all the way.

macaroonie
10-29-2006, 08:05 AM
Dome is dead right with regard to placement when the woof is side firing as I have found out. Its not an unsurmountable problem but it does need addressed or it all falls apart.
I thought you all might like another look at my babies. 4315s in disguise.
The rework has rendered fantastic imaging that was a bit suspect in the originals ( wide baffle effect ), other than that these are stock. Greedy for power though.

Titanium Dome
10-29-2006, 03:45 PM
When I first saw your beauties, I thought, there's an L7+ if I ever saw one.

BMWCCA
01-03-2007, 12:16 AM
If one believes that the speaker is one of the better contemporary designs in the JBL portfolio, as I firmly do, then those questions are for people who just don't get it. I've read everything I can find on the L-7 but I'm just not sure it I should pull the trigger on a set nearby. I understand the placement issues, power requirements, etc., I'm just not sure if I'm the right owner for a pair. Intrigued, for sure, but hesitant. Any chance Dome can PM me for a one-on-one off-list? I don't see any way to PM him. Anyone else with experience and expertise with these step-children feel free to reply.

C37 030
L112
L150A
4412A

Titanium Dome
01-03-2007, 10:07 AM
The first question I'd ask is "Why do you want a pair?"

If the answer is "I just want to see what they're like," then go ahead and purchase them. That's the only way to know. If you pay $500 or less you should be able to get most of your money back if you don't like them.

If the answer is something like "I think they'll be great speakers at an unbeatable price, but I'm afraid I might be wasting my time," or "What if TiDome's crazy and these speakers are cheese?" then there are ways to narrow the decision process.

ROOM:
1. What is the size, shape, and layout of your room?

2. Do you have the space to place them 3 feet from the walls, both behind and to the side?

3. Will you be able to avoid placing anything directly between them?

4. Can you get at least 6-8' back from the speakers when they're optimized with 10-15 degrees of toe-in?

EQUIPMENT:
5. While they'll play with as little as 35-40 Watts, do you have an amp that can deliver an honest 100+ Watts (good), 200+ Watts (better) or even 300+ Watts (best) per channel?

6. Will your amp/pre or receiver allow you to do some bass management and also allow you to tame the tweeter if necessary in a bright room? Having a variable HF center point (a la parametric EQ) will help.

SPEAKERS:
7. Are you willing to have a set of speakers whose midrange and midbass drivers are essentially unrepairable? There are no recone options that I'm aware of for these two drivers, and I'm not aware of any replacements for the surrounds either. Once any remaining new replacement drivers are gone, only used drivers will be available on the open market.

8. Are the L7s in question a mirrored pair? Do they come with the plastic bases? Are the grilles in decent shape? Are the binding posts solid? Is the price for the pair $600 or less? If no to any of these, think before you buy.

I've disabled PM for a number of reasons, and currently have no plans to reactivate it. Like any community, it only takes one nasty member to ruin an experience. Sorry. I'm glad to engage folks with questions/comments in the public forms, though. :)

BMWCCA
01-03-2007, 10:53 AM
If the answer is something like "I think they'll be great speakers at an unbeatable price, but I'm afraid I might be wasting my time," or "What if TiDome's crazy and these speakers are cheese?" then there are ways to narrow the decision process.
I've carefully read all your placement issues and solutions, as well as your links to the reviews from others. I'm intrigued, mostly because of these discussions. I currently don't have the space even for what I own already but there's this six-acre lot across the street I've owned for fifteen years intending to build a new house on if I ever get settled down enough from sending kids off to college (one in, one going next year, another in 2012!!!). One design goal is a room large and flexible enough to play with and enjoy my systems. I'm obviously patient. So this is mainly out of long-term curiosity and the hope that I'll really enjoy them.
EQUIPMENT:
5. While they'll play with as little as 35-40 Watts, do you have an amp that can deliver an honest 100+ Watts (good), 200+ Watts (better) or even 300+ Watts (best) per channel?

6. Will your amp/pre or receiver allow you to do some bass management and also allow you to tame the tweeter if necessary in a bright room? Having a variable HF center point (a la parametric EQ) will help.I run all Crown amps; D150s (2xSeries II, 1x original version), DC300A-II, and a PS-200. I'm patiently looking for another 300 so I'll be able to bi-amp and if necessary tri-amp, or bridge four amps in bi-amp mode so I'm thinking there's enough power available. I run three Soundcraftsmen pre-EQs (1xPE2217, 2xDX4200) so I can fiddle with EQ and do so regularly just to compensate for whatever bonehead mixed the original material I'm listening to. That should at least get me started.


SPEAKERS:
7. Are you willing to have a set of speakers whose midrange and midbass drivers are essentially unrepairable? There are no recone options that I'm aware of for these two drivers, and I'm not aware of any replacements for the surrounds either. Once any remaining new replacement drivers are gone, only used drivers will be available on the open market.To be honest, this is what really worries me. I can re-foam my many 128Hs, and my D130s seem to plug-away forever (they've been in my family since new in '57), but is there no way these will be supported by spares in the future? I drive cars older than these speakers (and some older than the 030s!), and I value support for tradition and heritage from my manufacturers. This aspect could be the straw...


8. Are the L7s in question a mirrored pair? Do they come with the plastic bases? Are the grilles in decent shape? Are the binding posts solid? Is the price for the pair $600 or less? If no to any of these, think before you buy.Well, okay, someone would have found them anyway. These look as nice as any I've seen, they're within a couple-hour drive, and even the B-I-N price is reasonable. Of course someone's bound to hit the first bid soon (or the BIN, now that I've pointed it out here) so it may all be moot momentarily: L-7 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250069287239&rd=1&rd=1)


I'm glad to engage folks with questions/comments in the public forms, though. :) Thanks! And thanks for the food for thought, too bad I can't just hear a set to help make the decision. Oh well, we'll let fate and the hand of Ebay decide.

Titanium Dome
01-03-2007, 02:53 PM
You're welcome.

I wrote somewhere (maybe in this thread), that I got a Soundcraftsmen A200 amp included in my original purchase of a pair of new L7s from ABC Warehouse in Portage, MI. Subsequent to that I got a bunch of Soundcraftsmen gear, including RE2215-R EQs, AS-1000 and AE-2000 Scanalyzers, tons of amps and preamps, including a pair of DX4200s, a couple of tuners, and even some SAM-II mics. A lot of guys here seem to have a piece or two of Soundcraftsmen gear.

A 90s Soundcraftsmen amp, EQ, preamp, and tuner combo is aces with the L7, or any L Series speaker.

BMWCCA
01-03-2007, 03:37 PM
A 90s Soundcraftsmen amp, EQ, preamp, and tuner combo is aces with the L7, or any L Series speaker.I got my first Soundcrafsmen (PE2217) from the same Hi-fi dealer my Dad bought our 030 from new. After that they became as hard to find as good JBLs are today. I got so fed up chasing leads on dealers from Soundcraftsmen corporate that they finally gave up, sent me the price list, and told me to take 25% off any of them and they'd send me the product. Of course soon afterward, they were no longer made in USA, and then they disappeared into MTX.

So what is the life expectancy of the cones/surrounds on the L-series? I remember reading of one separating but what's been the experience? And no repair or replacement parts available?? :hmm:

BMWCCA
01-03-2007, 05:50 PM
As I suggested, the point is now moot; someone hit the B.I.N. button for $500. I'll just return to being L-series ignorant!

Titanium Dome
01-03-2007, 06:46 PM
Aw, too bad. I was hoping to have another L Series fan. There are a few of us here.

It's hard to say on the separation issue. I've got eight or ten L Series speakers and haven't had a driver issue yet. However, I've seen a few that were separating, almost like an overflexed plastic or vinyl hinge. I think they could be repaired by a handy person, but it certainly wouldn't be an approved procedure.

Mine are now over a decade old, so... fingers crossed.

Robh3606
01-03-2007, 06:58 PM
So what is the life expectancy of the cones/surrounds on the L-series? I remember reading of one separating but what's been the experience? And no repair or replacement parts available?? :hmm:

I got a pair of L3's a cat laced into. Asside from a small tear on one woofer they were fine. Used silicone to seal it from the back, worked like a charm, that was 3 years ago now. The surround is some kind of wht feels like rubber?? They call it Microlaminate Surround Tm??? Different from the grey stuff and it seems a lot more robust. There are no recones for those drivers. You have to replace the entire driver with the exception of the 12" woofer in the L7 and the 035's.

Rob:)

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1992-l-series.htm

Titanium Dome
01-04-2007, 12:40 PM
While I believe this to be an error, here's a shop in England that lists a recone kit for the 708G. :hmm:

http://www.europeanloudspeaker.com/E.L.S.%20Parts%20Lists%20Eng.PDF/Recone%20Kits%20Eng.pdf

clmrt
01-04-2007, 01:04 PM
You guys are making me paranoid.:crying:

Robh3606
01-04-2007, 01:22 PM
While I believe this to be an error, here's a shop in England that lists a recone kit for the 708G. :hmm:

Yes but are they JBL or aftermarket??? Take a look at the TechSheets for the L series. They all say no recone kits.

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L5%20ts.pdf

Here's the L5 that has all the drivers that would be in question.

Rob:)

Zilch
01-05-2007, 12:12 PM
Harman Consumer Service offers a JBl replacement driver for 708G.

I'll inquire again. I wasn't interested at the time.... :dont-know

[Well, I WAS interested, for Minis, but they were somewhat over $100 apiece.... :( ]

Titanium Dome
03-05-2007, 10:44 AM
Harman Consumer Service offers a JBl replacement driver for 708G.

I'll inquire again. I wasn't interested at the time.... :dont-know

[Well, I WAS interested, for Minis, but they were somewhat over $100 apiece.... :( ]

Zilch

Did you ever retrieve this info?

davey28
03-08-2007, 11:26 AM
Hi Folks, Dave here. I'm new to this forum and have a question regarding center channel. I've read this thread from beginning to end. TD, you're a L7 encyclopedia! Great information! Anyway, I'm the original owner of a pair of L5's and am about to embark on my first serious home theater setup. I just purchased a Denon 1907AVR and now I'm looking for something to use for a center that will match the L5. Obviously the CL505 sounds like the perfect solution however no one really did say how they matched up with the L5. Not to mention, they aren't easy to find. So what has been the preferred center for those with L5's as their fronts?

TIA,
Dave

opimax
03-08-2007, 11:43 AM
When I set my brother up w/l7 and l5 i used the cl505 as it matches in appearence. The drivers are different though but seems fine to him (he wouldn't notice if it was not working though) and I have not put it hrough critical listening tests. Depending on space you could try the L1 or L3 to compare.

There were 2 505 on ebay recently eother sold for under 100 or didn't sell I believe

Mark

davey28
03-08-2007, 11:51 AM
opimax - thanks for the quick reply. I'd be very interested to hear what you find when you listen to your brothers setup. I did check Ebay completed listing and saw the 505 went for $80 something back in December. Of course there aren't any listed currently. If I knew the 505 is a perfect match, then I may try and be patient until one comes up again on Ebay. However, if it's not a perfect match, I'd like to know what everyone else is using with the L5's.

Regards,
Dave

opimax
03-08-2007, 11:53 AM
Ideally then you would want another l5 if logistics works

davey28
03-08-2007, 12:12 PM
I wish that were an option opimax but space is limited. The system is housed in a TV armoire. I really can not plunk anything down in front of it. I was hoping to set the center on top of the armoire.

opimax
03-08-2007, 12:33 PM
If it were me knowing what i know as i type this I would buy the 505 off the bay (so cheap)or here if someone has one and look for the 1/3 upgrade if desired.

Mark

Titanium Dome
03-08-2007, 07:48 PM
Unfortunately, the same general appearance is the only similarity between the CL505 and the L Series.

The drivers are not the same. The HRD tweeter is a nice enough driver, but it is a little laminate dome, not a pure Ti like the 035TiA.

The 5" driver with its cellulose fiber laminate is very unlike the mineral filled polypropylene 4" or 6" (JBL describes them as 5" and 6.5" in some information) drivers in the L Series.

The CL505 crosses over to the HRD tweeter at 3kHz, while the L5 goes to the 035TiA at 4kHz. Not earth-shattering, but different.

Even something as fundamental as the baffle composition is significantly different.

I've heard the CL505 and it's a nice center, though not spectacular. It works visually with the L Series, and for a casual listener will sound okay, In fact, used with an L3 or L1, it's probably not much of an issue. With an L5 or L7, it's too feeble IMO and voiced incorrectly.

davey28
03-09-2007, 05:51 AM
TD, you're right on! I emailed JBL in regards to the CL505 being matched with the L5's and here is there reply.


"David,
Good evening and thanks for this information. The JBL L5
speakers were manufactured from 1992-1996. While the CL505 was released
to be used as a center channel speaker, this was not designed
specifically for the L5 speakers. As for a current model that would
work well with the L5 speakers, I would recommend looking at, and
listening to, the JBL Studio LC1
(http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=LC1&Language=
(http://ms07.lnh.mail.rcn.net/cgi-bin/fetch.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jbl.com%2Fhome%2Fpr oducts%2Fproduct_detail.aspx%3Fprod%3DLC1%26Langua ge%3D)
ENG&Country=US&Region=USA&cat=BFS&ser=SLS). This speaker will give you
a similar tweeter, and the specifications are fairly similar. You would
really have to listen to the speaker yourself, to get a good idea of
what it sounds like, but, this would fit your needs quite well.

I hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Mark Tirotta"

davey28
03-10-2007, 04:16 PM
If it were me knowing what i know as i type this I would buy the 505 off the bay (so cheap)or here if someone has one and look for the 1/3 upgrade if desired.

Mark

Mark,

John from the this forum is willing to sell me a 505. What exactly do you mean by a 1/3 upgrade?

Thanks,
Dave

opimax
03-10-2007, 05:24 PM
Sorry ,

A single L1 or L3 from this series, better match sonically. They stand up rather then rest on the side the way the 505 does to match the curve of the grill...and don't forget that space issue :p



Mark

Titanium Dome
03-10-2007, 07:29 PM
This pair of over-priced L7s (plus nonmatching center and surrounds) shows a typical and wrong placement of L7s, with the LE120H-1 woofers firing right into the equipment stack. With the towers too close to the wall and too close to each other, the reflections from the already disrupted LF waves must be awful and the bass port must be chuffing up a storm trying to vent itself out the back.

:bash: Oh, my ears! Oh my eyes! :banghead:


http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-Speakers_W0QQitemZ220090283913QQcategoryZ94912QQrd Z1QQcmdZViewItem

For future reference, I'll snag a photo.

Titanium Dome
03-10-2007, 07:32 PM
While I'm at it, for $799 plus $200 shipping (that's a thousand bucks, folks), the stabilizing floor stands should be included, but it seems they're not.

clmrt
03-11-2007, 08:04 AM
I don't use the floor squares on my L5's - they were never drilled out for installation so I figured I'll leave it be for at least a while.

I'm almost convinced I'd like to use Parts Express' little legs a'la L880.

Which seem to be gone from the PE site now...:biting:

aht3
03-12-2007, 02:49 PM
Davey, in case you're interested, here is a great price on the LC1. Heck, at this price, I would get the LC2 if it would fit your setup of course.

Hope this helps

clmrt
03-12-2007, 03:10 PM
The devil you say?

Titanium Dome
03-12-2007, 11:26 PM
Harman Consumer Service offers a JBl replacement driver for 708G.

I'll inquire again. I wasn't interested at the time.... :dont-know

[Well, I WAS interested, for Minis, but they were somewhat over $100 apiece.... :( ]


Zilch

Did you ever retrieve this info?

HEY brother, are ya listenin'? Okay, here it is, then.


Looks like the 704G is available at $96 and a 708G replacement at $180, though not specifically identified as a 708G. :hmm: The 706G is available at $108. There are no recone kits, and it appears these cannot be refoamed.

The 035TiA is not available but can be added to the wish list and when available will be $84.

Finally, the LE120H-1 is discontinued and not even able to be put on a wish list. However, it can be refoamed or reconed.

Zilch
03-13-2007, 11:12 PM
HEY brother, are ya listenin'?Yeah, $180 it was.

I didn't write down the number.

[One of them 9-digit ones I didn't recognize.... :p ]

Titanium Dome
03-24-2007, 11:53 AM
I have not personally heard an L7 but it seems from my own experience that I can spot one inherent design issue that most likely contributes to the difficult placement issues I've read about.

The side firing woofer crosses over at 170Hz. From my experience, low frequencies over 100Hz become more and more directional. It seems fairly obvious that these side firing woofers are going to cause some strange imaging issues, depending on placement and room acoustics. I'd suggest that the 8" mid bass driver would probably be more than capable of delivering the goods on anything over 80Hz. If I had designed the L7, I would have treated the side firing woofer as a sub and crossed it over to the 8" at somewhere between 80-100Hz.

As far as crossover mods, I have to admit I am not technically inclined, but I wonder if a mod could me done to change the X-over point?

Any thoughts on above would be appreciated.

Moved from another thread started by Audiokarma - TD

Titanium Dome
03-24-2007, 11:57 AM
If you want, it's possible to completely isolate the woofer from the rest of the system electronically. This is a truly active biamp capable system. This would require removal of the LF network to move a jumper cable.

The good news is that the LF network is attached to the back of the speaker connection cup on the rear of the speaker housing, so you don't have to pull the LE120H-1 out to access it.

Titanium Dome
03-24-2007, 12:00 PM
Posts #61 through #65 in this thread show this very well.

Also, a thorough review of the L7 Supplement to the L Series Owner's Manual will provide some useful insight.

Titanium Dome
03-24-2007, 12:22 PM
Ok, so apparently the supplement is not available on the site. Here's a screen shot of the last page.

Audiokarma
03-24-2007, 03:42 PM
If you want, it's possible to completely isolate the woofer from the rest of the system electronically. This is a truly active biamp capable system. This would require removal of the LF network to move a jumper cable.

The good news is that the LF network is attached to the back of the speaker connection cup on the rear of the speaker housing, so you don't have to pull the LE120H-1 out to access it.

Thanks Ti,

Very useful thread that I should have consulted earlier. Biamping and isolating the LF looks easy enough and I would probably use a high quality Sub amp such as an NHT SA-2 or SA-3 and use built in LP filiter set at 100Hz, for example. Would it be difficult to bypass the High Pass filter for the mid bass driver to bring it in at a lower frequency than 170Hz?

Titanium Dome
03-24-2007, 04:56 PM
I believe that once you put it into bi-amp mode, the external crossover determines the xo point between the woofer and the midbass driver. At least that's how I read the manual.

It wouldn't hurt to ask JBL, if you could find someone who actually remembers these networks.

JBL 4645
04-19-2007, 06:49 PM
macaroonie

Is that a Marantz stereo amplifier receiver in the background?

Titanium Dome
06-09-2007, 09:06 AM
I recently opened another site in Los Angeles, which means another local office for me. Unlike most of the odd-shaped offices I get, this is a spacious, rectangular box with four solid walls. I decided to take a pair of L7s and power them with a pair of Soundcraftsmen A400 stereo amps (200+W/ch) and a DX4100 preamp.

I was able to replicate the JBL L7 Owner's Manual Supplement almost to a "T" in terms of 3' placement from the walls, 15 degree toe-in, two-amplifier bi-wire hook up, equilateral triangle to listening position, etc.

I hooked it all up, cued up some Ultra Dance, and turned it up to about 1/4.

I gotta say...

Holy... Oh baby... Mother... Boy oh boy... Son of... Un...ing... Oh heck, WOW!!! What an absolute kick!

My assistant came running in, her eyes wide and bright, big, big smile, "Gosh, Doug, are you ready to party?" So, I cranked it to 1/3, and it was amazing. So we partied.
:dj-party:

Titanium Dome
06-09-2007, 11:11 AM
After some significant two-channel listening, I have to conclude that the L7 is one of the best, if not the best bargain in stereo listening ever produced by JBL, at least in the floor-standing four-way consumer category.

As I have stressed over and over again, set up is critical. Add to that significant power and a room that really works, and you've got something special.

In 1992, the XPL200A sold for $1699 each. In 1993, the L7 sold for $975 each. Both years, the 250TiBQ sold for $2499 each. From that time forward, JBL consumer didn't have any four-way in the consumer line up until the Performance Series arrived. A stacked PS1400/PT800 cost $3099. I guess the TL260 is the next four-way (in the same sense that an Everest II DD66000 or K2 S9800 is a two-way). I can't find a USD price for the TL260, but it was quoted at 1999€.



Considering I picked up this particular pair of very good L7s for around $460 a couple of years ago, they were a real steal.

ka7niq
06-09-2007, 10:20 PM
The L7 Owner's Manual Supplement spends a little ink on placement of the speakers, then goes on for three and a half pages on "Bi-Wiring and Bi-Amplification." This latter section really covers a lot more than just bi-wiring and bi-amping. Here in L7 Heaven, Part the First, I'll get into placement.

The placement instructions are simple and supported with two detailed drawings. Anyone who reads this and doesn't start with the speakers three feet from the front wall and three feet from the side wall on its respective side, with the side-mounted woofers facing inward, and the fronts angled 10-15 degrees (toe in) is asking for poor performance, and if he complains about it he's a dope. This is the simple, direct, straightforward, diagrammed, optimal placement recommended by the manufacturer. Then put the listener in the 60/60/60 triangle set up JBL recommends in the regular L Series Owner's Manual.

So to the complainers who jam L7s into the corners nearly flat against the side wall: you're idiots!

To the bellyachers who place L7s a foot from the rear wall and four feet from the side walls and three feet from each other with a TV stuck between them: you're morons!

To the whiners who put the woofers facing frontward and the other drivers facing inward: yo, stoopid!

To the gripers who put one next to the wall in the corner and the other two feet forward of the front wall next to an opening into the kitchen: hey, pinhead, get a clue!

The message here is this: PLACEMENT MATTERS.

If you've done any of the above and you're happy, then all I can say is 1) if you're happy, I'm not referring to you and don't mean to offend you, and 2) even if you are happy you could be getting so much more out of these speakers.

Especially on the L7s with their side firing woofers, getting them too close to the front wall increases coupling that results in uneven bass, and getting them too deep into the corners causes boominess. Think about how that side-firing woofer complicates things. :hmm: Placing physical objects between the two woofers, such as TVs, stands, equipment racks, etc., also interferes with the woofer's operation.

So, yes, it's a picky set up, more than the average consumer wants to bother with. He wants to pull 'em out of the cartons, stick 'em in the corner on either side of the TV, and watch Willy Wonka. Most speakers are arranged according to the needs of the room. With L7s, the room must be arranged according to the needs of the speakers. (That's a bit of an overstatement, but you get my point. ;) )

If the room is right and you've got the 60/60/60 triangle that JBL recommends, you're still not quite done, because every room is different. JBL advises that you can have some leeway of about a foot in fine tuning your sound with regard to soundstage, low bass extension, and treble dispersion and imaging. Again, the average consumer is going to say, "Screw this," turn up the tone controls, and think the problem is solved. By carefully adjusting proximity to room corners (closer/farther) and distance from the front wall (nearer/farther) while maintaining the 60/60/60 triangle if possible, you can really find the best environment that your room will provide for top notch L7 sound. Is this a PITA? Yes. Is it worth the trouble? Absolutely.

After keeping my L7s captive in my room in MI for a couple of years, I decided to do it right and changed the room to optimize the speakers. Holy crap! What a difference! :jawdrop: :jawdrop:

Who knows? I'm sure it was a conscious design choice to place the woofers on the side to keep the front baffle narrow and the L Series all looking similar. Maybe the marketing people beat out the engineers who wanted the woofers on the front. Can't really say.

What I can say is that this is a fairly unusual design for JBL, one that is not repeated. It makes the L7 fundamentally different from the other L Series speakers, even though driver complements and enclosure features are shared. It makes it harder to set up and less desirable for many consumer living rooms.

All of that being said, it has very good drivers, great crossovers, fine cabinetry, and a terrific sound. When properly set up and driven (see Part the Second) it's an amazing beast, and a bit unlike any other JBL. It will take a ton of power, and I've always chickened out before the speakers, especially since any amp I own will be driven to clip before the L7 is overpowered. :rockon1:

It's definitely one of my top five JBLs. :bouncy:
I have been reading this thread because I just picked up a MINT pair of L 7's.

I HATED my first pair, and I am the one who dogged them on Audio Web.
Maybe on Audio Review too, I do not remember ?
I SOO much wanted to like these JBL's, I REALLY REALLY Did.

I had L 65 Jubals as a kid, and my grandpa had Hartsfields!

Gramps gave me his old Jubals before he died.
My freaking aunt GAVE AWAY the Hartsfields to freaking Catholic Charity:banghead:

Like the Pope NEEDS more freaking money :barf:

Anyway, I HAD them set up right, I assure you, and had em bi amped with very very good stuff.
Good wire too, good pre amp, etc, etc, etc.

My pair sounded flat awful, harsh, bright, and the most horrible sin of all, NO IMAGING.

I must add I have at any time in the last 20 years owned at least 4 other pairs of speakers.
I currently own 14 pairs.

Much as I WANTED to like the JBL's because of my like for the old Jubal L 65's when I was a kid, and having really fond memories of the Hartsfields in my Grampa's Michigan Basement driven by all Mac Tubes, I just hated these L 7's.

Perhaps I got a BAD pair, or they did not like my room ?

I honestly reported on what I heard, but the other day a MINT pair fell in my lap!

They are not hooked up yet, because I have some 9.5 cu ft subwoofers that look like the bottom bass bins of Klipschorns, except they are sealed.

They HAD a TC Sounds LMS 4000 15" driver in them of only 85 db efficiency.

I was running a pair of Ashly FET 500 amps with huhe replacement caps in em bridgd mono, 1500 watts into 4 ohms.

They wanted even MORE power, and made my lights dim, and breakers blow!

Plus, the QTS of this wonderful driver is all wrong for corner placement!

Bass was absolutely scary, but boomy due to corner room gaiin, and high final Q.

So, I replaced em with some cheap Dayton 15's from Parts Express.

They sound EXCELLENT, way better overall bass because final Q is much lower, around .6 instead of .882, so room gain makes em flat!

The efficiency of the Daytons is 92 db vs 85 for the TC Sounds, so there is more mid bass impact.

I have a BASS CD playing in the room, and it is shaking back here in the bedroom, LOL

I will TRY the L7's once again in a new room from what I had before.

This room is much larger, and much deader, and I have even better stuff now then I had back then.

I am NOT a JBL hater, although IF you read my review, and did not know me, you would think I am.

As before, the L 7's will be up against some really good speakers here at my place.

We shall see ????

IF they do good this time, I will of course revise my reviews, or IF I can't, I will simply write another one ?

MAYBE I just got a bad pair.

And yes, mine were mirror imaged, and set up correctly too, as they will be here again at my new place.

I woukld like to download an owners manual, can you help ?

Titanium Dome
06-09-2007, 11:52 PM
The L Series manual is here:

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Owner%27s%20Manual/L1%203%205%207%20om.pdf

The L7 supplement is here:

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Owner%27s%20Manual/L7%20om%20Supplement.pdf

As I'm sure you know, these will never sound anything like Jubals (or Hartsfields). It's an entirely different type of speaker. So you could tweak them all day long and still be unhappy with them.

I doubt that you got a bad pair, though anything's possible. More likely, you just don't (or didn't) like the sound.

Titanium Dome
06-10-2007, 09:25 PM
I believe this is one of your original reviews, this one from AudioReview.com. It sure caused a furor, as I recall.


Summary:
I had high hopes for these based on review in Audio. They dont image, have a plastic coloration,and they just plain suck. the tweeter constanly caLLS ATTENTION TO ITSELF, THE DRIVERS DONT BLEND AND TTHEY SUCK BIG TIME. tHIS IS ANYTHING BUT AN AUDIOPHILE SPEAKER. I made a big mistake buying these mail order without hearing them first. I bi- amped with Krells and Tubes on top, Tubes all the way, and krells full range, used first class source material and they suck! I tried, no I begged the mail order place to take em back and they said no, even as I begged and offered to pay a 20% re-stocking charge! I put them for sale in the Tampa paper and Every audiophile who listened t them said no way, even for 600.00!!!! Finally, A stupid kid who was high on weed and Metallica came over to hear em! I bi- amped the piece of craps with my 2 Krells and I guess He saw God and I dumped these un musical pretenders. I have owned many, many speakers over the years, and very few I disliked as much as these! If you like these, perhaps you spent too much time at rock concerts and no longer can hear! Yes, they are built OK. Too bad, they will unfortunately be around to pollute the ears of our children! Not Mine! JBL was wise to discontinue these. The HLS 610-810, now thats musicical!

Strengths:
-bass

Weaknesses:
imaging, plastic coloration,poor blending of drivers, bright hard sound

Similar Products Used:
Quad 63, electrovoice interface D, Plasmatronics, celestion SL-6, etc,etc

Titanium Dome
06-10-2007, 09:34 PM
I know you took some heat over there at AudioReview. I know I wasn't happy with what you wrote. That is why I'm so amazed that you came here to get some info and that you gave them a second chance.

The fact that you did this fairly and have posted a new thread with your new impressions shows you have a lot of class and some pretty big balls. For the sake of keeping this info in the L Series thread for easy reference, I'm copying the first post of your new thread here. Thanks for posting it.


I saw the L7 JBL's at my local Circuit City, and did some research on them.
I saved my money, but bought them mail order to get a deal.
My FIRST pair were absolutely dreadful, and I gave them a very bad review on Audio Web, maybe even on Audio Review too.

They were screechy, did not image, and just plain sucked.

Last week, I saw some local for sale.
At first, I just laughed, and ignored them.
But Duke Spinner on Klipsch forum has em, and likes em.

I came over here, and saw others like them too, so I thought WTF, and bought them.

The last pair I sold local to some kid.
I had em bi amped with Krells, played Metallica for him, and they were gone!

So, i paid for these, and the guy even delivered em for me in his pickup!
He liked em, but the old lady did not,,so she forced him to buy Bose.
Poor Guy, you could see it in his eyes he was having a hard time saying good bye to his old friends!

I will cut through the chase and say right now THIS pair sounds NOTHING like my last pair.
This IS very much an Audiophiles Speaker.
They image all over the place.
They are ANYTHING but bright, actually quite recessed in the midrange, and a LITTLE over damped.
We will get to THAT later.

When these first got here, they sounded a little strange.
They had sat in the living room of the previous owner, unhooked for over a year.

I played em low at first, gradually increasing level, and then they started sounding better.

After about an hour of play, I hit em with some demanding RAP Cd's of my kids.

Then, I did my little "trick" I do to all old speakers.
I intentionally and carefully heat up the drivers, then, I turn amp all the way down, and CAREFULLY push each cone driver all the way in to it stops.
I "massage" each driver like this a few times, slowly and carefully.

Bud Fried taught me this.
It seems Ferrofluid can SOMETIMES get stuck, or dirt/dust gets into the coil.

I heat em up, and do one speaker at a time.

When finished, the speakers from California finally came back to life!

Elton John's' Saturday Night's alright for fighting was the very best I have ever heard on any speaker, including my 801's.
Dexy's Midnight Runners song "Come on Eileen" was devoid of screech/

Stevie Nicks voice was free of peaks singing Rhiannon, as was Christine McVie's.

The L7's really show their stuff on complex, demanding material, easily separating and revealing, in a soft spoken way, what is on the recording.

I think they can be improved greatly by playing with the damping material in the speakers.

The sound is definitely over damped.
I think JBL was trying to get the LAST little bit of coloration out of them, and was a BIT enthusiastic in their amount of stuffing.

Guess what ?
It didn't work, compared to the B&W 801's they do have some coloration.
TOO much damping robs musical bloom, and my instincts tell me there are great improvements to be made by playing with damping material and amounts.

There IS a slight mid range recession compared to the 801's, and this give em a laid back character.

The L7 Tweeter is no match for the 801 tweeter, but nothing is.
No big deal.

The L7 gives a big, non fatiguing sound, and the louder you play em, the more they like it.

Right now, I am using a Luxman M 117 amp and a Parasound PreAmp.

My Moscode 600 is being modded, and will be back shortly.

In short, I am VERY impressed with these speakers.

They are not even bi wired at the moment.

If one reads my original review from long ago on these, you will see I WANTED to like these.

The first pair must have been defective, because these kick butt, in an audiophile way.

Bass is OK, but I have corner mounted 9.5 cu ft 15's with gobs of power on them.

As long as a speaker goes down to meet my subs, I am happy.

From 4 hours of listening, I must say L 7 is indeed an impressive speaker.

Not surprisingly, the speaker from California did the Beach Boys justice, and Red Hot Chili Peppers too!

These LOVE Rock.

Boston was great, so was REO.
Jewels voice and Piano was just right, in a laid back way.

On the Live Farm Aid CD, there is a Live Version of "Copperhead Road".

This was the best I have ever heard that song, it is a real bitch to get right.

James Ingrahams voice lacked a LITTLE body compared to the 801's, but I think some damping mods will fix that ?

On Village People's "Macho Man", the trumpets were a bit muted, and the midrange recessed compared to the 801's.

Not right, not wrong, just a different perspective then 801' that is all.

I gotta get back and listen some more, just wanted to share.

ka7niq
06-11-2007, 12:50 AM
Comparing and contrasting the four-ways I have in the dungeon/shop/garage illustrates why I like so many different speakers. None is perfect because there is no perfect sound, except perhaps the original performance...maybe. :dont-know

L250: It's a beautiful, smooth, balanced speaker with prodigious output. It's weak in the highs by my standards, and the midrange is a bit "tight" and breathless compared to the others. The midbass and woofer are just about perfectly matched, and they are powerful performers.

XPL200: Due to personal preference, the Ti tweeter and midrange sound the best to me. They're open, spacious, articulate, and alive. Their clarity is unparalleled in this group (but the Performance Series will beat them.) Sadly, the midbass is an underachiever and disappoints, while the 12" woofer is an agile performer whose output is quite adequate if not outstanding.

L7: The tweeter is very nice of course, and the midrange is full and front, though the XPL's combo is better. The midbass is just as nice sounding as the L250's and the woofer is every bit as strong as the L250's with the added benefit of covering a narrower frequency band. It is articulate, sharp, and controlled; yet it can really kick out the bass when called upon.

In most rooms, the XPL200 will be a good performer, easily sounding better than the other two in many installations.

The L250 will win in any larger environment. By its very physical appearance it will command the space, and the sound will live up to the appearance. It can create an awesome presence, even today. It will gag in a small environment, strangled to death by the room's choke hold.

The L7 in the right room and set up correctly will knock either of these two out of the house. However, it will take more time and effort to achieve this, and if you're just going to compromise and make them go where they look the best to keep the peace, then don't bother. They will suck, and you'll say they are shitty and shrill, and you'll call me a dumb ass :moon: who doesn't know what he's talking about. :scold:

These are a rare and unique departure in JBL speaker design. I think the reality check for JBL was that the average person was not going to (be able to) set them up correctly, and then the dumbasses were going to whine and complain and rate them poorly. So why bother?

I have hope that there are people here who would take the time to understand the L7 and take the time and energy to do it right. People who are willing to work to get better sound. People who understand that the room is part of the process, especially with an innovative design approach. People who get why so many people buy Bose and some of the other popular crap brands because they sound the same no matter where you put them or how little effort you put into it. People who own and enjoy L1, L3, and L5 pairs and can see that these wonderful boxes are just the design leftovers from the great and challenging L7, the best expression, the finest example, and the highest achievement of the JBL L Series (1990s).

:applaud:
God, it is almost 3 am in the morning here in Florida, had to pull the plug.
I just couldn't stop listwening to the L 7's.
My God, what a speaker.

I can't wait for my big Moscode 600 to be fixed.
Some Mullard tubes on these, my Tube Dac and Tube Pre amp, and the 3rd dimension will be in my home.

Lets start getting other L 7 or L 5 owners involved in Cap swaps, etc, to see where we can take these ?

WHAT JBL enginer was respobsible for these ?

I have correspopnded with Sean Olive at Infinity, and he has emailed me response curves taken in the Lab.

These were before his time, but I would be curious to see if I can get a response graph from him ?

Want me to ask Sean ?
He is really cool.

We NEEED to find out what JBL engineers were responsible for our speakers ?

The LACK of a center channel indicated that these were a balls to the walls AUDIO, not home theatre design.

All the talk in the manual about bi amping and wire/tube amps, etc, et, tells us that these were one of JBL's "last shots" at the audiophile market, before they got swallowed up by Harman Int.

ka7niq
06-11-2007, 12:55 AM
I believe that once you put it into bi-amp mode, the external crossover determines the xo point between the woofer and the midbass driver. At least that's how I read the manual.

It wouldn't hurt to ask JBL, if you could find someone who actually remembers these networks.
Have you seen the crossovers in L 7 ?

What kind of caps are in there ?

The TWEETER cap is ultra important, wonder if JBL could afford to use Poly Caps in L7 ?

ka7niq
06-11-2007, 01:14 AM
Check this out ? http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_thread/thread/f48b034a65f63071/707c7c980789ccf9?lnk=st&q=jbl+l7&rnum=2&hl=en#707c7c980789ccf9

Here is someone else bad mouthing them, LOL
This "guru" is telling the guy interested in L 7's that ANY under 500 dollar speaker mentioned in this newsgroup will be better then an L7.

I USED to think that way too, based on what I heard from my mail order pair.

It will be cool to see WHAT engineer was responsible for these, maybe track him down, and perhaps even get him on the forum ?

Whoever voiced these can hear, and hear well.

They did their best to overcome the cabinet coloration's inevitable in a tower design at this price point.

But the crossover is dead nuts!

Vocals are smooth as glass, and imaging can be spooky.

WE need to find WHO designed OUR speakers, and WHAT the real story was of the L series.

Was it supposed to really be a high end design that accidentally wound up at Circuit City, or what ?

ka7niq
07-08-2007, 09:41 PM
I know you took some heat over there at AudioReview. I know I wasn't happy with what you wrote. That is why I'm so amazed that you came here to get some info and that you gave them a second chance.

The fact that you did this fairly and have posted a new thread with your new impressions shows you have a lot of class and some pretty big balls. For the sake of keeping this info in the L Series thread for easy reference, I'm copying the first post of your new thread here. Thanks for posting it.
Thank GOD you can edit your reviews.
http://www.audioweb.com/Review/ReviewViewerBottom.asp?reviewid=17383

The bad one is gone, replaced by this one!

JBLnsince1959
07-09-2007, 02:38 PM
In 1992, the XPL200A sold for $1699 each. In 1993, the L7 sold for $975 each. Both years, the 250TiBQ sold for $2499 each. From that time forward, JBL consumer didn't have any four-way in the consumer line up until the Performance Series arrived. A stacked PS1400/PT800 cost $3099. I guess the TL260 is the next four-way (in the same sense that an Everest II DD66000 or K2 S9800 is a two-way). I can't find a USD price for the TL260, but it was quoted at 1999€.
.


Do Not forget the Studio Series S412 - very nice 4 way speaker

Titanium Dome
07-09-2007, 10:44 PM
Do Not forget the Studio Series S412 - very nice 4 way speaker

You're right. I remembered it as a three-way for some reason, but there it is right in the model name, 4-way, 12 inch.

JBLnsince1959
07-10-2007, 04:08 PM
I remembered it as a three-way for some reason, but there it is right in the model name, 4-way, 12 inch.

there was the S312 ( 3 way, 12" woofer - I have a set) and the
S412 ( 4 way, 12" powered woofer - I want a set)

ahhhh..the "Good Old Days" when they made speakers with woofers bigger than 8";)

http://www.audioheritage.org/images/jbl/extracts/S412.jpg

Rusnzha ( Russ) has a pair that I've listened too, nice, very nice....

CHagen7
07-17-2007, 11:53 AM
Okay, I'm new here - which you might find odd, but it is what it is. Are you all sitting down? I'm the guy that designed your L-7's....and 5's, and 3's, 1's, LX-300's, LX-44's, Synthesis 3, HT-1................etc. etc. The full list is too large to post. I picked a few highlights.

I'd be more than happy to answer questions/enter discussions, but bear in mind, there will be a torrent.

A little history - I started at Rogersound Labs in 1985, and designed a few including the wildly popular (for them) RSL 2600. Then I went to JBL in 1988, and started with the L100T3 series. I worked there until '97 when the Japanese stock market crash forced a layoff, and even though I was a senior development engineer, was low man on the seniority totem pole. From there I went to Event Electronics for two years, designing a powered 12" subwoofer. In January of 2000, I started at M&K, becoming manager of engineering and director of quality with time. I was with them until they closed in February. Still looking for work.

Okay....................not ALL AT ONCE!!!!

CHagen7
07-17-2007, 12:05 PM
And my name is Chris Hagen. There's a picture of me in the Stereo Review article on American speaker manufacture in 1988 or 89. I'm dropping a 2214H-1 into the ground plane pit for measurement for the L100T3. And another line I'm proud of designing was the Citation speakers - 7.2,7.3,7.4 and 5.2, 3 and 4.

Storm
07-17-2007, 12:07 PM
I do not personally own a pair of those, but I give you a HUGE welcome.

Did you by chance have any part in the 250TI speakers?

;)

-Storm.


And my name is Chris Hagen. There's a picture of me in the Stereo Review article on American speaker manufacture in 1988 or 89. I'm dropping a 2214H-1 into the ground plane pit for measurement for the L100T3. And another line I'm proud of designing was the Citation speakers - 7.2,7.3,7.4 and 5.2, 3 and 4.

clmrt
07-17-2007, 12:15 PM
And my name is Chris Hagen. There's a picture of me in the Stereo Review article on American speaker manufacture in 1988 or 89. I'm dropping a 2214H-1 into the ground plane pit for measurement for the L100T3. And another line I'm proud of designing was the Citation speakers - 7.2,7.3,7.4 and 5.2, 3 and 4.

Doucanoe has that issue of SR...

Welcome!

I like my L5's aplenty, thanks much. Was there a compromise made in any of these? Or were they allowed every whim from start to finish...I ask because the drivers (save the tweeter) seem dedicated to this short-lived line, and that seems to me it would have been a very expensive thing to do - design 4 different new transducers for one product line, that lived for only three years.

They seem to be unique in a way, all black and intimidating-looking.

CHagen7
07-17-2007, 01:56 PM
No, I didn’t have anything to do with the 250Ti. That model was Greg Timbers’ baby. He does most of the high-end models at JBL, particularly for Japan, showing up sometimes in their magazines.
L series was always a no-compromise line from the performance side. But to keep the price down, L series did use less expensive fittings, cabinetry, and finishes. I always felt the L-5 should have had a bigger woofer. I liked the prototype sidefire 10" 3-way the best. But it was designed as a dual 6" by the industrial designer and initial pictures taken (these show in the earlier ads/lit sheets). Then we played with dual 8" woofers, but the president of JBL Consumer decided to tie it in to the 4-way L-7 by making it an 8" 4-way. When said and done though, it works, the drivers blended nicely (even with the uphill climb), and it certainly made a place for itself.
As for longevity, actually this L-series lasted as long as 6 years (designed in ’90 -’91, released in the fall of ’91, L-7 produced until ’97 or ’98). And at the time of line release, the VP of JBL Consumer told us all speakers would have no more than a two-year lifespan.So this L series definitely showed it had merits.
As for drivers, JBL usually makes a new line of drivers for a major line release, whether it has existing prestige, like L series, or they wanted to make a big splash, like with SoundEffects.

Chris

clmrt
07-17-2007, 02:18 PM
Thanks - as usual, I think I know more than I do.:D

Any ideas on number of units sold?

What took you so long to find this site?

CHagen7
07-17-2007, 02:43 PM
That’s okay – we humans do that a lot….I think it’s why doctor’s call their workplace a "practice".
Engineers at JBL weren’t really in the monetary loop. You could find out numbers sold, and the like if you asked enough people, but I tended to keep my nose in design.
Actually, I’d seen the site a long time ago….I think while I was at Event, and then early on at M&K. But I tend to use the internet for downloads, product info, and purchasing things. Otherwise, I tend to stay in the present (not tracking old models that I designed), so I didn’t really latch onto the site. Recently, my best friend (and product manager at JBL) told me about the demands to "meet the guy that designed our speakers!", so I thought I should register and pipe up.
I haven’t found anything since M&K (other than some contract work), so I have some time now to answer emails, and – who knows? – maybe a new job will come of it. But it’s good enough for me how I felt about a design – I don’t spend a lot of time reading forums about my past designs, and not really in it for any level of fame or whatever. (actually, my friend has enough trouble getting me to stay up with the Jackson guitars forum!)
Anyway – the L-7 was one of my favorite designs of all time (I did somewhere around 150 for JBL, maybe 10 or so for Rogersound, 1 for Event, and 5 or 10 for M&K), and to coin a phrase truthfully – " I have a pair at home!" (actually three, soon to be five, but we’ll see where that goes…)
Chris

PS And yes, I was a little perturbed about how the L-7 was introduced in this thread…

clmrt
07-17-2007, 02:50 PM
Any comments on the (lack of) center channel, the CL505?

Storm
07-17-2007, 02:55 PM
Is Greg Timbers a member of audioheritage? I would LOVE to pm him and strike up a conversation about the 250TI.

Thanks.

;)

-Storm.

clmrt
07-17-2007, 03:27 PM
He goes by the code name "xxxxxxx"...:bouncy:

opimax
07-17-2007, 03:28 PM
I am in charge of my brother 's system of 2 L7 , 2 l5 and the infamous cl505 and a no name sub. Pretty good system, especially for someone who doesn't care that much (him, not me :)). the system does high volume well (not ridiculous levels and he only has 100x5). The L series has become quite a bargain these days maybe 800 at most for all including sub. In his system the 505 works well enough. I am trying to compare it to a single l3, haven't yet.


Welcome to the site!!! and good luck looking

Mark

Storm
07-17-2007, 03:32 PM
WOW!

I am very amazed!
All this time knowing Giskard, that is really Timbers?

Incredible!

;)

This site is so F*&king awesome!

-Storm.


He goes by the code name "Giskard"...:bouncy:

Titanium Dome
07-17-2007, 03:50 PM
If this is what got you perturbed, don't sweat it and read it again.


Here is the statement speaker of the L Series, but it is also the problem child, the black sheep, the mystery, the enigma, the disappointment. It is usually though not universally criticized as being too bright, too strident, too shrill, too weak in the bass, etc.

So did JBL drop the ball on this one? After making three pretty good models at their price point, did they totally screw up the top model? Did they just not know what they were doing? Did they gamble on a design that just wasn't any good? Did they think that they could just do a half-assed job with "new" ideas and people would buy it at a premium price anyway?

Well, those questions only matter if one agrees that the speaker is a disappointment or a disaster. If one believes that the speaker is one of the better contemporary designs in the JBL portfolio, as I firmly do, then those questions are for people who just don't get it.

More on the L7 later.

When I started the L Series (1990s) thread, there was precious little about it on the site, and there was a general disdain for most things from JBL consumer in that era. I knew that was a misperception and set out to bring this wonderful series to light.

The L7 is a vastly underrated speaker, and I've gone to extensive lengths to promote its excellence to those who are willing to work with it. Lots of folks just don't appreciate it and dismiss it out of hand, though I think we've changed that perception by persistent praise.

If you search "L7" you'll see support for the speaker in almost every thread and encouragement to buy it in every marketplace posting.

Thanks for designing such a great speaker series and welcome to the forums. :)

CHagen7
07-17-2007, 03:54 PM
Actually, the CL-505 came after the rest of the line. Since they were designed in ’90, home theater was still just getting off the ground, so the center was not part of the original market plan. It was added near the end, after the L-5 was done.
It was slated to be a turnkey project from an external manufacturer. They sourced the transducers and made the cabinet, copying the L-series grille treatment. I may have had something to do with the crossover, but do not recall. It worked all right, but not using the same components made marketing decide to have the tweeter marked with H R D – High Rigidity Dome. I don’t think very many of these sold.
L-series kind of took off because the narrow width made it fairly nice for setting alongside of a rear-projection tv, but it sort of fell into this as I don’t think that was a design consideration of the industrial designer.

And, don't worry - I read the whole L-7 intro, and I'm good with it. Just the first few lines had me wondering "What the ?????"

(Side note: Design order was L-1, then L-3, then L-7, then L-5).

rww1951
07-17-2007, 05:09 PM
Chris, welcome to the forum and I’m glad I was sitting down! I am the proud owner of L100s, L1s, L5s, L7s, and a CL505. Thought I’d better ask you a couple questions before you flameout. I drive the L7s (my favorite) with a couple of Carver TFM amplifiers and they sound AWESOME, I admire your designs everyday. It’s the first in my life I’ve had speakers and an amp that I can crank up to the pain threshold with no distortion. My question involves placement of the L7s. I know you’re not going to want to hear this but I am forced to have an equipment cabinet placed between the speakers. I live in a log home and have no other option (will post pics in a couple of weeks). Any suggestions on placement when faced with my limits. Should I reverse them and fire the woofers to the outside? Thanks Roger

johnaec
07-17-2007, 05:14 PM
I love my L3's! What I find unusual is that it appears all the cone drivers, (with the possible exception of the 12" LF), are only used in these models, and no other series.

John

bigstereo
07-17-2007, 05:16 PM
A little history - I started at Rogersound Labs in 1985, and designed a few including the wildly popular (for them) RSL 2600. Then I went to JBL in 1988, and started with the L100T3 series.

Sir, it is with great honor that I have the opportunity to say to you,
Thank-you for for your work on the L100t3. These are my favorite speakers of any that I've owned thus far.

RJ

johnaec
07-17-2007, 05:17 PM
He goes by the code name "Giskard"...:bouncy:Nope! Greg's posted here a number of times as gtimbers: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=2523 Greg and Giskard do know each other, though...

John

CHagen7
07-17-2007, 05:39 PM
Hey, no problems on the questions. Actually I gave a lot of the placement diction to marketing for the manual, although I can’t say as I wrote it. And they did a heckuva lot purtier pictures, too!
But it’s true what it says: You can put the woofers to the outside, but it’s not as good as them firing in. Largely because if you’re firing them to the outside, there’s a mass between them that I didn’t voice with (usually called "TV"). Then you start getting corner enhancement of the 12" which unbalances the acoustic crossover to the 8". So it’s BEST not to, but if you have to point them out, I always figured 95% of an L-7 was STILL better than about 98% of the speakers out there, so it’s okay to do.
As it is, my L-7’s have a big ol’ Pioneer between them now. But I space them away, toe them in and point the woofers at the tv, and they sound great. (ok….rest of system: Syn 3 hor. Ctr, 2 x Syn 3 sub, and 2 x Citation 7.3 surr………..and yes, it’s easy to do human stress research upon my neighbor using the volume control). Oh – running mine with PS Audio 100 Delta, and everything else on a Citation 5.1.

I also did the L100T3, but was carefully watched by Greg through the project (since it was my first there). Afterwards, he basically kicked me in the rear and said "You’re on your own from here – you don’t need my help." GREAT guy. You guys with LX’es? Guilty. HP? Uh huh.
But I also did MR, P, and…………shudder…………….EPI. Yep, sometimes the straws are all nice and shiny bright, and beautiful, but other times the straw you draw is filthy, dripping with goo, and’s been you don’t know where.

As I mentioned before, no they didn’t show up many other places, but I DID manage to use the 6-1/2" woofer in Synthesis 3.

Zilch
07-17-2007, 11:20 PM
Hi, Chris.

There's an L-R filter in Citation 7.4.

What's that about?

Also, what's different with 2214H-1 vs. 2214H?

CHagen7
07-17-2007, 11:56 PM
L-R filter? Do you own one and you took it apart? You guys are GOOD!!! Well, it’s very simple really:
As we all know and love, the JBL woofers tend to have more energy in their motors than most other speakers. This does two things: electro-dynamically damps the bottom end as well as produces more output at higher frequencies. And so it’s very common to have a JBL woofer that climbs through its frequency band. (However, the L-7-series components actually were level, to mimic the competing transducers…) Now the 7.4 is a THX sub. And they want level performance out to above 300 Hz so it interacts with the subwoofer crossover correctly. If it climbs, it won’t do this and will be rejected (and the 7.4 was). So I put a parallel inductor and resistor in series with the woofer. The inductor shorts the resistor out at low frequencies, but as the woofer starts to edge out of the THX window, the inductor’s impedance is such that the resistor is coming into play to knock the woofer level down. It actually doesn’t do anything in the THX subwoofer bandwidth. I didn’t like playing with a resistor in series with the driver, but when I was done and had measured it to see where it kicked in, had listened to it, and compared it to what the inductor/capacitor version would likely be (it wanted to go 3rd order). I went for the simple yet elegant and cost-effective solution.
Note that Syn 3 did not need this, as the woofer was facing off to the side, and so measuring in front you didn’t see the rise so much.

You almost had me with that other question. But memory cells refired – the H was a brushed frame face (the forward facing lip just outside the screw-holes) whereas the H-1 was all black. The H-1 was used in the T3 L series, but prior to that it had used the H. I liked the H-1 better – didn’t cut your fingers as much. Not that I won’t bleed for my craft (I frequently do), but just carrying a woofer from here to there to do it?

Zilch
07-18-2007, 03:31 AM
L-R filter? Do you own one and you took it apart?
Well, it's what some of us do around here -- figure stuff out and make new stuff:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55162#post55162

I found the filter hidden behind the insulation during the course of using 7.4 to measure all of the LE14 variants:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55722#post55722

We figured it out, but never knew the rationale for it. Ultimately, I scored a second one:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=60441#post60441

H-1s are back in them now; they're still being used for, uhmmm, "research."

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=170474&postcount=24

Thank you for your responses and insights! :thmbsup:

clmrt
07-18-2007, 04:53 AM
Nope! Greg's posted here a number of times as gtimbers: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=2523 Greg and Giskard do know each other, though...

John

:D

Yeah, I know, I just had to though.

hjames
07-18-2007, 05:13 AM
:D

Yeah, I know, I just had to though.

Ahhh - you're the playful one, now aren't ya!

You really had Strum going, too! he he he

clmrt
07-18-2007, 06:52 AM
About the L5,

"...but the president of JBL Consumer decided to tie it in to the 4-way L-7 by making it an 8" 4-way. When said and done though, it works, the drivers blended nicely (even with the uphill climb)..."

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "uphill climb", and what detriment was avoided in spite of?

00Robin
07-18-2007, 07:09 AM
Chris, welcome to the forum and I’m glad I was sitting down! I am the proud owner of L100s, L1s, L5s, L7s, and a CL505. Thought I’d better ask you a couple questions before you flameout. I drive the L7s (my favorite) with a couple of Carver TFM amplifiers and they sound AWESOME, I admire your designs everyday. It’s the first in my life I’ve had speakers and an amp that I can crank up to the pain threshold with no distortion. My question involves placement of the L7s. I know you’re not going to want to hear this but I am forced to have an equipment cabinet placed between the speakers. I live in a log home and have no other option (will post pics in a couple of weeks). Any suggestions on placement when faced with my limits. Should I reverse them and fire the woofers to the outside? Thanks Roger


Roger,the best my big VOTT's ever sounded was in my log home with a vaulted ceiling. It seemed as though the sound was so good every hair stood on end. I'm no help as to the cabinet between them,but I will envy you every time you turn your system on in a log home. No matter how loud I dared to send them,the sound only got better and better. I'm all tingly just with those precious memories. Wood and sound go together like...like.. well,they just go well together. Maybe thats why REAL concert halls were built that way huh?

Titanium Dome
07-18-2007, 08:23 AM
Chris, thanks for all the insight.

I have a couple of inquiries. First, please elaborate, if you will, on he LE120H-1 driver, used in the L7, the Citation 5.4, and the Fosgate Audionics CSS220. Second, I'd be grateful to know the intended use(s) of the jumper on the L7s LF network.

doucanoe
07-18-2007, 09:05 AM
Doucanoe has that issue of SR...


Bingo!
Stereo Review - June 1989 pages 75-81

There you are Chris, doing your thing up on the roof of the JBL facility. Very interesting article titled " The Making of an American Speaker".

Nice outfit by the way. You could pull that out of the closet and it would play as well today as it did then. Everything that goes around, comes around as they say. I still have a few of those myself. :D

RC

clmrt
07-18-2007, 09:14 AM
LOL

Thanks RC.

CHagen7
07-26-2007, 01:15 PM
Hi, yall, I'm back! Been dealing with the M&K auction....
In answer:
1) The "uphill climb" in an L-5 is about +2dB from 200 Hz to 10kHz. Fortunately, ALL of the frequency sections climb and at the same rate, so I made it smooth. It doesn't sound as bright that way.
2) The jumper is a wire with it's tail connected to a point between the woofer inductor and the woofer hot lead. In normal mode (or whatever I/we called it), it connects to the non-grounded end of the orange capacitors, making a second order woofer section. The other fast-on tab is electrically in front of the woofer inductor. So when you move the small-tabbed end to that tab for bi-amp/external crossover use, not only do you disconnect the capacitor, but you short the inductor thus eliminating the passive crossover. (That one took a few days - it's been 15 years!!!!.....and if I'm wrong, let me know and I'll take one of my spares apart, but that's what I recall).
3) No, not much of a clothes horse.....that was my brother. I figure if it's not too ugly and hides the body, that's all ya need. For a more recent shot, go to the M&K website, pull down "what's new", click on the message from Ken, then at the bottom of the page click on "what makes an m&k an m&k". Both shots taken on the same day - I didn't wear the same shirt all the time....
Chris

rww1951
07-26-2007, 04:25 PM
Chris, finally decided to try bi-wiring my L7s. I noticed a definite improvement but ended up with one change I do not like. The bass response is over powering and the bass control on my preamp doesn’t change it. I guess I could have a problem in the preamp but it’s funny it occurred at the same time I made the wiring change. Any ideas?

CHagen7
07-26-2007, 04:37 PM
RWW - so you took the straps off, and you ran two wire sets, one for the high frequency input and one for the low frequency input? You didn't change the internal jumper, did you? That's only for bi-amping with an external crossover to roll off the 12" woofer and readjust level again. Let me know. It should be a more subtle change.

rww1951
07-26-2007, 04:45 PM
Yes, straps off, seprate wires from the amp. Did not change the internal jumper. The LOUDNESS button does work and like I said the bass control has little or no effect. When I get time I will change everything back to the way it was and see if the problem goes away. I did such a nice job I hate to tear it all apart! One other thing, I am driving them with a 250W Carver TFM amp with only 10 feet of 12 gauge wire so the L7 LF drivers are seeing lots of power!

rww1951
07-27-2007, 04:30 PM
Well I removed the bi-wiring and it appears the problem is in the preamp, the bass is running wide open with no adjustment. The wide open bass is causing the LE120H-1 woofer in the left L7 to vibrate into a rattle at medium to high volume. What failure in the driver causes the rattle?

Titanium Dome
07-28-2007, 08:30 AM
I'd say it's trying to notify you of its impending destruction if you keep driving it like that. If it were me I wouldn't play it at all until the underlying problem with the signal is corrected.

It's hard to say at this point if it bottomed out, overheated the voice coil, excursioned too far forward, split the surround, or if it's not able to reproduce a defective signal that's being sent to it.

Hopefully, Chris has an intimte working knowledge of that woofer and can shed some light.

Titanium Dome
07-28-2007, 08:38 AM
The baffle on the L7 and other L Series cabinets appears to be some kind of plastic laminate. This seems to be a unique feature, at least in the way it's implemented. Since this appears to be a deliberate choice, I'm curious as to the reason(s).

Was this an engineering choice, an accounting choice, a marketing choice, or what?

CHagen7
07-29-2007, 08:31 AM
Sorry about the response delay - I'm still settling stuff from M&K...

RWW - that doesn't sound good. It sounds like you now have a rubbing voice coil. It MIGHT be a loose wire from overheating, but then you'd hear a scratching all the time. That woofer should be reconed. And I wouldn't play with your preamp until it's repaired. Oooorrr - it could be that your preamp just sends those outputs wide open with no level control. What's your preamp? And thoroughly red your manual about the outputs you used before deciding it needs work.

It could be your screws are loose! Haha, just wanted to say that. Seriously, though, it could be something silly like that. You'd be surprised how some speakers ship, from ALL manufacturers...

It could be you're tapping the voice-coil/cone joint on the motor top plate, but the level sounds way too low for that. The LE120H-1 is a good traditional heroic JBL 12" woofer with 3" motor. So it plays LOUD.

You can check for a rubbing voice coil by disconnecting the speaker from the amplifier, and with grille off, pushing gently at different points around the voice coil inward about 1/8 - 1/4". If you have a rub, you will hear a scrape at one point only. If you don't hear anything, you probably don't have a rub.

Everybody should remember the Speakerlab Number One Rule (from the '70's, Bones!): IF IT SOUNDS BAD, TURN IT DOWN!!!! You'll avoid a LOT of misfortune this way. Many times a quick fix saves a lot of time waiting for repair...

I agree with Titanium Dome, though. I'd worry about getting the preamp correct first. Use another if you have to, but make sure the preamp is good. You can't go back to the original wiring with this preamp, because it has shown that it may have a defect. Then, once you have a known good preamp, I'd go again on the system, leaning carefully (volume-wise) on the speakers and see if the left one still has the issue. Then check for the above problems.

If you have to, then find a good recone company that will support your speaker.


Actually, the L-series baffle is shaped MDF, and then black high-gloss lacquered. What you are seeing is the laminate layers that form in the MDF during its manufacture. The only times that they did something special for the baffle when I was there was XPL, with the shaped MDF, encased in the expanding foam, with the neoprene cover - and when Pro laminated carbon fiber to the MDF for the new 4300's. Although, I may be forgetting a few. But definitely the L-series baffles were MDF. I don't recall thickness, but in general, L-series had 3/4" baffles.

I wanted to put more bracing in the woofer area on the L-7 due to the wide baffle/side panel, but the 1" sub-baffle seemed to work pretty well, and JBL Consumer wanted it yesterday, so I had to let it go as it was. We didn't have a good panel vibration measurement set up at the time anyway, so it probably would have added quite a bit of time to the project.


Chris

rww1951
07-29-2007, 11:09 AM
Thanks for the response Chris. Problem solved! Setup a different preamp and noticed the same rattle on the other L7. At that point I started looking for other causes, I knew it most likely couldn’t be both LH drivers. I don’t know the technical term for it, but the air from the woofers was bouncing off the equipment cabinet (2 feet away) and bucking against the LE120Hs making them rattle. Reversed the speakers, firing the woofers outward and no more rattling. As I stated in a previous post I am very limited with the placement of my system. Moral of the story is always look for the simple things when trouble shooting a problem. To answer your question about the preamp, most all my equipment is vintage CARVER. Last night an Audiophile I know stopped by with a SACD player and some SACDs and I auditioned the L7s for him and he was amazed with them. Soundstage, low, mid, and high range and fullness. Coming from someone with really high dollar equipment and a lot of experience I felt really good. Thanks for the great design!

100r1
08-05-2007, 06:48 AM
Wow, Finally get to know who designed my L7's. Thank you Chris for your work.

I have a pair purchased new October '92 paid $ 1,099.00 delivered to my home. They are still the main speakers I use in my HT.

I fell in love with the JBL sound back in the early 70's while in school and doing some recording at Criteria Studios in North Miami, Fla. They were using 4310's as monitors. I was blown away by the sound. The Lust for musical reproduction was born. Well a young kid in school could not afford such sound.

In the 80's I purchased a retired set of 4311's and they served me well. Looking to change the look and feel of my system (and make the wife happy in the looks department), in the 90's I went looking for a something different. No matter where I went or what I listened to I always ended back in the JBL sound rooms. The L7's were just out and the store that had them set up did it right with placement and power. Again they Blew me away.

I have always been dismayed at the negative comments people have posted on the L7's, but after many years of owning them I have concluded that others that have owned them or auditioned them never had them set up proper. I also found that 35 watts minimum power recomendation was way to low for the proper head room these speakers require.

The L series from the 90's were JBL quality in the Drivers, Crossovers and cabinets. It a shame that the average person never realizes what it takes to build a quality musical instrument.

Titanium Dome
08-05-2007, 04:53 PM
Glad to see you on the forums, and an L7 lover, too!

It is a great treat to have Chris come here and share some insider info with us.

neilsworld
01-22-2008, 03:56 AM
L series was always a no-compromise line from the performance side. But to keep the price down, L series did use less expensive fittings, cabinetry, and finishes.



Thank you for all of your excellent work and, more recently, the comments and information you have contributed here.

Based on your comment, would there be any advantage, improvement, or merit in constructing new cabinets identical in size and design out of more exotic timber, materials, fittings, and finishes?
My black ash veneer has suffered some sun damage over the years....

Regards,
Neil

JBL 4645
01-22-2008, 10:26 AM
Whoa! Slow down that volume control. You may be clipping your amp and running a lot of high frequency grung into you tweeters (especially with that 50-watter).

David

Yeah passive crossovers suck, no insult intended I’ve kinder lost faith with passive, active crossovers rule.:p Passive generates too much distortion.:(

BMWCCA
02-29-2008, 04:02 PM
L series was always a no-compromise line from the performance side. But to keep the price down, L series did use less expensive fittings, cabinetry, and finishes. I always felt the L-5 should have had a bigger woofer. I liked the prototype sidefire 10" 3-way the best. But it was designed as a dual 6" by the industrial designer and initial pictures taken (these show in the earlier ads/lit sheets). Then we played with dual 8" woofers, but the president of JBL Consumer decided to tie it in to the 4-way L-7 by making it an 8" 4-way. When said and done though, it works, the drivers blended nicely (even with the uphill climb), and it certainly made a place for itself.I've been casually looking for a pair of L-5s ever since reading about them on this site. I don't remember them at all from when they were new. I started out looking for L-7s but in reading here I figured the placement issues would kill them in my small house. Maybe some day. Anyhow, I'm a two-day L-5 owner now, thanks to Brutal's tip and Spwal's intercession on my behalf. I've placed them next to my 4412As and listened to the monitors first them swapped speaker leads to the L-5s using the same Soundcraftsmen DX4200 and Crown PS-400. Wow! I'm probably even more impressed with them than I thought I'd be. I'm going to bring in another PS-400 so I can power both pairs identically for a true A-B comparison. Initially, I don't think the L-5s give anything away on the bottom at normal listening levels to the 128H-1 12" in the 4412As. It's still a small room and I don't have them the desired 3-feet off the rear wall so they get a bit muddy at extremely high volume (and I mean extreme) but the imaging in the room with the L-5s six-feet apart listening six-feet away is really remarkable. A very impressive small package. I can't wait to compare them to the L112s, L150As, and 030s in the larger room. I really can't believe the sound that comes out of those tiny components. And I'm happy to be able to say I know who designed them! Thanks Chris. Great job! I promise never to give them too little power. :applaud:

jan_slagman
03-30-2008, 10:35 AM
While I believe this to be an error, here's a shop in England that lists a recone kit for the 708G. :hmm:

http://www.europeanloudspeaker.com/E.L.S.%20Parts%20Lists%20Eng.PDF/Recone%20Kits%20Eng.pdf


Hello,

Sorry to interupt you, but Pohle is a village in Germany not far from Minden, county Rheinland-Westfalen.

Kind regards,

Jan Slagman
The Netherlands

Titanium Dome
03-30-2008, 05:59 PM
Hello,

Sorry to interupt you, but Pohle is a village in Germany not far from Minden, county Rheinland-Westfalen.

Kind regards,

Jan Slagman
The Netherlands

Thanks, Jan, I'm certain you're correct. However, when I tried to contact them from both the German and English site, here's where it sent me:

ELS Pro Audio
2196 Alberni Hwy, Box 191
Coombs B.C. V0R1M0
Canada

Merkwürdig, nicht ist es?

Titanium Dome
05-04-2008, 12:06 PM
I've been lucky enough over the years to accumulate many pairs of L7s, some brand new, some L5s and some L3s. At one point I had a 7.1 set up of L Series (1990s).

I've trimmed down to two stereo pairs of L7s, a pair of L5s and a pair of L3s, plus a spare L7 for parts.

I have a pair of L7s in my Arts District office in Los Angles in what is a virtually perfect room, where the sound is nothing short of stunning--easily the best I've ever heard from the L7s. I have another pair in my music room at home, where they share the room with multiple JBL stereo pairs, and they sound very good there as well. I've got the L5s in one of the larger guest bedrooms, and the L3s serve me in the garage now.

As I've written before, the L7s require a lot of care in set up, and the room is a critical element. In the right room, set up in the best way, they are simply amazing. At the full retail of $1000 each, they were one of the greatest values JBL ever produced. In fact, I feel they were the best expression of audiophile quality sound at the lowest price point ever achieved by any manufacturer. IMO no one has beaten that equation before or since.

Of course, it's all about placement and set up, and if those things aren't right, then the L7 is a waste of money. If they have to be put where the wife/SO will allow, if the room shape demands a specific placement that is not ideal, if they cannot be at least 3' from the walls in both directions, then you'll never know the best that they can sound. When done right, the imaging is precise and solid, the soundstage is wide and coherent, the highs are brilliant and the lows are thunderous, yet articulate.

The L5 is much easier to set up. It's potentially just as strong as the L7 through the mids and highs, and can be very good in the lows as well. In fact, due to its ease of set up, it will sound better than a poorly set up L7. The L5 is the oddest of JBL's 4-ways due to its 8", 6.5", 4", and 035TiA drivers. It is perhaps the closest spacing of four different drivers all in a time-aligned row, except perhaps for the recent TiK. (Originally the two woofers were going to be the same.)

When placement is restricted, I'd say the L5 is the preferable choice. In small to medium rooms, it can sound better than the L7, which needs some room to breathe. The L5 is excellent at low volumes, medium volumes, and loud volumes. It absorbs a lot of power and runs "hot" with little stress.

The L7 is too cramped in small rooms and most medium rooms. It needs an end of the room where it can be 3' out from the side and 3' in from the back, so you're giving up 18' sq. of the room just to get optimal placement for a pair. Then you need clear space between the side-firing woofers and some open space between the listener(s) and the two speakers. IMO a 10' x 12' room is not acceptable, and 12' x 14' is really the minimum to achieve good (but not GREAT) sound.

At low volumes powered by amps under 100W/ch, the L7s can be anemic. Since the L7 is built to work with amps up to 450W/ch, the minimum 35W/ch is seriously under underpowered. I run the Arts District pair with two Soundcraftsmen 220W/ch amps (active bi-wire, so 220W into the woofers, and 220W into the mids and highs ) for stunning output.

Hopefully this will clarify some questions people asked about the L5 vs. the L7.

JBLAddict
05-04-2008, 04:43 PM
I've been lucky enough over the years to accumulate many pairs of L7s, some brand new, some L5s and some L3s. At one point I had a 7.1 set up of L Series (1990s).

I've trimmed down to two stereo pairs of L7s, a pair of L5s and a pair of L3s, plus a spare L7 for parts.

I have a pair of L7s in my Arts District office in Los Angles in what is a virtually perfect room, where the sound is nothing short of stunning--easily the best I've ever heard from the L7s. I have another pair in my music room at home, where they share the room with multiple JBL stereo pairs, and they sound very good there as well. I've got the L5s in one of the larger guest bedrooms, and the L3s serve me in the garage now.

As I've written before, the L7s require a lot of care in set up, and the room is a critical element. In the right room, set up in the best way, they are simply amazing. At the full retail of $1000 each, they were one of the greatest values JBL ever produced. In fact, I feel they were the best expression of audiophile quality sound at the lowest price point ever achieved by any manufacturer. IMO no one has beaten that equation before or since.

Of course, it's all about placement and set up, and if those things aren't right, then the L7 is a waste of money. If they have to be put where the wife/SO will allow, if the room shape demands a specific placement that is not ideal, if they cannot be at least 3' from the walls in both directions, then you'll never know the best that they can sound. When done right, the imaging is precise and solid, the soundstage is wide and coherent, the highs are brilliant and the lows are thunderous, yet articulate.

The L5 is much easier to set up. It's potentially just as strong as the L7 through the mids and highs, and can be very good in the lows as well. In fact, due to its ease of set up, it will sound better than a poorly set up L7. The L5 is the oddest of JBL's 4-ways due to its 8", 6.5", 4", and 035TiA drivers. It is perhaps the closest spacing of four different drivers all in a time-aligned row, except perhaps for the recent TiK. (Originally the two woofers were going to be the same.)

When placement is restricted, I'd say the L5 is the preferable choice. In small to medium rooms, it can sound better than the L7, which needs some room to breathe. The L5 is excellent at low volumes, medium volumes, and loud volumes. It absorbs a lot of power and runs "hot" with little stress.

The L7 is too cramped in small rooms and most medium rooms. It needs an end of the room where it can be 3' out from the side and 3' in from the back, so you're giving up 18' sq. of the room just to get optimal placement for a pair. Then you need clear space between the side-firing woofers and some open space between the listener(s) and the two speakers. IMO a 10' x 12' room is not acceptable, and 12' x 14' is really the minimum to achieve good (but not GREAT) sound.

At low volumes powered by amps under 100W/ch, the L7s can be anemic. Since the L7 is built to work with amps up to 450W/ch, the minimum 35W/ch is seriously under underpowered. I run the Arts District pair with two Soundcraftsmen 220W/ch amps (active bi-wire, so 220W into the woofers, and 220W into the mids and highs ) for stunning output.

Hopefully this will clarify some questions people asked about the L5 vs. the L7.

sorry for any confusion caused by stating the Q in the tagline not the text body. I've read about this entire thread for the L7 L5 comparisons and have thoroughly enjoyed it.:applaud:

BMWCCA
05-13-2008, 08:41 PM
One-day L7 owner here. Moving up from the L5 and a truck-load of other superb JBLs. As seen elsewhere on this forum, I just picked up a pair of L7s from a neighbor. I previously settled for the L5 due to the infamous placement issues and I have to say I was overwhelmed by how nice the L5 is. But with only few hours of L7 experience, in a less-than-optimal location, robbing the the speaker leads from my venerable C37 030s and using their single DC300A-II, I have to say (after fifty years of living with JBLs) I'm a bit closer to heaven tonight without losing appreciation for all those that came before.

I find the L7 very easy to listen to. They've simply got to be pulled out from the wall and will want to dominate a smaller room, visually, for that reason but the resulting sound-stage fills the room and doesn't much care from what angle you choose to listen. Maybe it's the inward-firing twelves, or maybe it's the incredible height of the 035TiAs, but you can walk around the room and you think you're strolling around inside the orchestra. It's an uncanny feeling of the speakers filling the room with sound without making themselves the focal point. And that's no easy task for 45-inch-tall black monoliths.

I did a bit of quick-and-dirty and switched the Soundcraftsmen DX4200 into A+B mono mode and A-B'd one L7 with one 030 just for fun. Gawd, I love that ancient 15" D130. Is there anything ever made that is just that purely musical? I felt like I was inside the cello. But the pair of L7s imaged better than the pair of 030s and the bass was obviously more extended and with more punch in the deep end compared with the light and subtle nature of the D130. (To establish a frame of reference, I also own L112s, L150As, 4412As, and L20ts.)

The L5s were real eye-openers, but the L7 is truly the grown-up in this family. I don't really even want to play them side-by side since I love them both and really enjoy the L5s even at tremendous volume. The L5s are benefiting from a Crown PS-400 and, even though I've been told over and over here that the circuitry of the PS-400 adds nothing to the sound quality over the DC300A-II, in my heart it plays stronger. But I'm "wasting" one on my L20ts so tomorrow they get a PS-200 and the L7s will get the "late-series" PS-400, and maybe a bi-wiring using the DC300 for the top terminals and the PS for the bottoms. The wiring diagram suggests identical stereo amps each feeding one L7, but I can't see how using two such similar amps with both left channels feeding both terminal pairs on the L7 would really alter the concept of bi-wiring which I don't profess to understand anyway. Tomorrow is the day to hear the L7 at volume, if I get around to trying the bi-wiring or not. I expect they won't let me down.

Thanks, T-Dome, for starting this thread, for opening my eyes, and for encouraging all of us new L1, L3, L5, and L7 owners to sample the finest speaker ever built for under $1000 a side (and an especially good value at 10¢ on the dollar used, too). Now I've got to figure out what to use on the black-stained wood veneer to maintain them. JBL says they're essentially maintenance-free and I'm not sure Howard's or any oil-based treatment will do anything but make them just look too shiny. I'm open to suggestions from other L-Series owners.

rww1951
05-15-2008, 05:22 AM
Great score! Listen to Norah Jones’s ‘come away with me’ CD on those L7’s and I think you’ll really be impressed! Following is the care instructions from the L7 Owners Manual for what it’s worth (pretty lame).


Caring for your L Series
speakers

In general, a light dusting should
be all the care necessary since the
L Series cabinet finish does not
need waxing or oiling. However, if
the enclosure surfaces become
dirty, they may be cleaned with a
damp cloth or a cleaner suitable
for a sealed wood finish. Never
use a pump or spray cleaner di-
rectly on the speaker since the
over-spray could be harmful to the
L Series speaker cones. Instead,
apply cleaner to a soft rag and then
wipe it onto the cabinet.
To remove dust from the grille
cloth, use a vacuum with a brush
attachment. Spots may be
removed with a commercial
spot remover.

BMWCCA
05-15-2008, 06:26 AM
rww,

Thanks, but that's what I read, too. Which is why I'm asking what others have done to care for the finish on the black L-series cabinets. Any tips on touch-up? Preserving the finish? Is it impregnable and therefor unnecessary to apply anything to the surface? It almost feels like plastic or latex paint rather than black stain, though the wood-grain is real.

Just wondering.

hjames
05-15-2008, 06:59 AM
rww,

... I'm asking what others have done to care for the finish on the black L-series cabinets.
It almost feels like plastic or latex paint rather than black stain, though the wood-grain is real.

Just wondering.

Armour-All ?

excuse me - Armour-all for BMWs ...:applaud:

BMWCCA
05-15-2008, 07:24 AM
Armour-All ? :applaud:Don't laugh! I was considering Zymol Vinyl, (http://www.emmonscoachworks.com/ecommerce/shopDetails.cfm?p=5440&cat=56) since I've got a case of it in the basement!

Cleaner for a "sealed wood surface" seems to imply anything since the wood doesn't come into play. But I'd still like to know what the finish actually is!

rww1951
05-15-2008, 08:43 AM
I think I remember reading somewhere that the L Series cabinets are painted Ash veneer with a sealer coat. If that’s the case just clean them with a mild household cleaner if they’re dirty and apply a high quality paste wax. Touch up could be done with any good semi gloss black paint (Krylon semi-flat is a good choice).

Guido
05-15-2008, 09:17 AM
Thanks, Jan, I'm certain you're correct. However, when I tried to contact them from both the German and English site, here's where it sent me:

ELS Pro Audio
2196 Alberni Hwy, Box 191
Coombs B.C. V0R1M0
Canada

Merkwürdig, nicht ist es?

The shop owner is Randy.
He used to live in Pohle/Germany but moved to Canada early this year.

Mystery solved?

Titanium Dome
05-15-2008, 07:04 PM
The shop owner is Randy.
He used to live in Pohle/Germany but moved to Canada early this year.

Mystery solved?

Yes, you are both a gentleman and a detective. :bouncy:

BMWCCA
08-21-2008, 11:28 AM
OK, and mostly just to keep this thread in the "current" pile, I've recently added a pair of L1s to my collection of L5 and L7 speakers. Nice little speakers. Came in original packaging and look nearly new. Sound is as expected after becoming accustomed to the sound of the L5s.

The current thread about Harman Corporate mentioned edge-wound voice coils as a probably not-so tongue-in-cheek determiner of "heritage" versus "harman". But I've been unable to find that degree of detail about the driver construction in the 1990 L-series. I'm assuming the L7's LE120H-1 is likely to be a 3" edge-wound coil, but what constitutes the construction of the other drivers unique to the series? Is there something published with these details I've not been able to find? Got a good link?

Thanks again for the great thread. I had to stop myself from buying another pair of L5s yesterday, asking price $300. They were only 40-miles away but I'd set my limit at $200 and the (original) owner found another buyer somewhere around $250. I don't NEED any more! But I came so close . . . Would I sell mine for that? HELL no.

Slare
08-25-2008, 03:19 PM
Partly due to this thread & board, I renewed my love for JBL's. I got back into audio a few months ago, which started with me selling off my old Northridge N38's and SC305 center. After trying out a few different setups, I ended up coming by a pair of very nice L5's and picking them up.

I've been fond of JBL's since my brother in law introduced me to his L100T's when I was a kid. At the time, I remember coming very close to purchasing some of the smaller LX (44's I think) but never quite coming up with the money. I remember seeing the L and SPL series and thinking "someday, I might be able to afford them". Since then 15 or so years have passed and I guess I just finally realized I had the money now to go out and piece some of these old gems together. That and being in a large metro area with a strong CL base has definitely helped!

I've since rounded out a 5.1 system with the L5's up front, L1's for surrounds, and a EC35 center. I have some E10's to use if 7.1 ever takes off because I doubt I'll ever have room for 4 L1's. The EC35 center may seem odd, but it was the best match to my ears after trying several JBL centers with the L5's. I actually think it is quite close, but I am using subs and high-pass in my system. Full range I think it is a little soft on bass.

I also tried a EC25 (not even close), LC1 (much softer on the high end, much boomier on the low end), and CL-505 (seemed a little dull). I really wanted to give the LC2 a shot but it is much too tall. I really have never been happy with wtw centers.

My main reason for posting here is that I'm currently trying to piece together an L5-hardware based center in a CL-505 cabinet. I found a pair of L5 mids and am just waiting on my 035 tweeter to arrive.

For now, I have the L5 mids swapped into the CL-505 box and the center sounds a little flat. The mids actually produce decent low end, midrange is spot on (of course) but the HRD tweeter is pretty dead sounding to my ears, so I'm hoping once I get the 035 in there it'll be good to go...

Wonder if anyone else has tried this?

I'm also considering refurbishing the grilles with black cloth, and wondering if anyone has done that? I'm not sure I'll do that unless I can find used grille frames. My opinion of the gray seems to vary from day to day.

Thanks for the great thread and forum. I hope I am not offending anyone with the frankesteining of a CL-505.

BMWCCA
08-25-2008, 04:27 PM
I never could figure out why one L1 wouldn't make a more-than-adequate center channel for an L-series 5.1 system. Lay it on its side if you want. What am I not getting?

Slare
08-25-2008, 07:23 PM
I never could figure out why one L1 wouldn't make a more-than-adequate center channel for an L-series 5.1 system. Lay it on its side if you want. What am I not getting?

If my setup allowed me to use it vertically, I happily would. But even on its side an L1 is just a little too tall, not to mention the depth. Even if there was enough room the slanted bezel means it'd sit it rotated, which would look goofy.

SWIN
10-03-2008, 03:06 PM
Found this thread, when i stumbled on a pair of L7´s, that where on sale.

The owner had them in a small room, placed against the rear wall, one speaker in the corner, other close to the opening to the room.

While the sound was undeniably solid, authoritative, and low on coloration, the general balance was decidedly on the bright side, really sharp and shrill.

Do the sound really balance out, when placed correctly - read this thread a couple of times, but after listening to the L7´s, I am really wondering, if they can sound neutral.

Of cause - JBL don´t sound like British speakers - soft, fat, and forgiving, but the general balance in that room, really makes me wonder.


/SWIN

Titanium Dome
10-04-2008, 10:13 AM
SWIN, welcome to the forum.

As stated many times, the placement of the L7 is critical for best performance. The ones you heard were very poorly placed and probably suffering from being in a room far too small.

When shoved in a corner of a small room, the L7 will produce myriad high frequency early reflections off the side wall and ceiling. Being too close to the wall virtually plugs the rear port, which is especially important to the side-firing woofer. In addition, if there are objects in the room between the woofers, they will cause oddities in the low frequency response.

If you don't have a room that's at least 3.5 to 4 meters wide where the L7s can be a meter from the rear wall and the side wall, then they're not a good purchase for you. If you do have the right room to put them in, then they will be an excellent acquisition.

SWIN
10-04-2008, 02:51 PM
Thank you for your swift answer, Titanium Dome!

I think you are absolutely right, it must be the room and placement - close to the rear wall, and corner.
And the room where they are placed, is clearly too small for these speakers.

I have read all the earlier posts, so yes, I think I have (barely) the space, and room for these speakers.

Will return with pictures, and more opinions on these rare beasts.

/SWIN

Titanium Dome
10-04-2008, 03:22 PM
Thank you for your swift answer, Titanium Dome!

I think you are absolutely right, it must be the room and placement - close to the rear wall, and corner.
And the room where they are placed, is clearly too small for these speakers.

I have read all the earlier posts, so yes, I think I have (barely) the space, and room for these speakers.

Will return with pictures, and more opinions on these rare beasts.

/SWIN

Best of luck. We'll wait for your report. :)

BMWCCA
10-04-2008, 03:24 PM
I read all about the L7s before I bought mine. Even bought a pair of L5s first because I thought the L7s wouldn't work out. When a pair turned up four houses down the street I couldn't resist. They are currently operating in a tiny spare room, less than a foot from the back wall, less than six-feet apart, but more than three feet from a side wall and the ceiling is slanted. The equipment stack is between the two L7s but I've pulled the speakers out a bit and turned them slightly inward. They sound great and I don't even bother to EQ them, something that was a constant battle with my 4412As in the same room. In fact I'm going to put the Mac to sleep and go listen to them right now! Cheers!

Don't be afraid to give the L7s a good home. You can always build a new home for them later. That's what I had to tell my wife.

SWIN
10-06-2008, 12:52 PM
Needless to say, I bought the L7´s.

In fact, I would have bought them the first time around, if my card had not ended up inside a ATM, and my withdrawal denied.

But here are pictures (with the sellers permission), how they where placed at his home.

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll318/Xantia_2008/DSC02005.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll318/Xantia_2008/DSC02004.jpg

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll318/Xantia_2008/DSC02002.jpg

Used equipment to drive them where Harman/Kardon AVR30, Denon DCD1460 CD player.

Still not had any time for pictures, or properly setting up the L7´s at my place.

But while checking them out, I found that when they where placed in the middle of my room, (the only spot not occupied by HiFi gear) the balance of the speakers was opposite to that, at they´r previous owner - too much bass.
That was after I had put the strap back om the right hand speaker, enabling the side mounted bass - note the location of the LP player at the pictures!

The sound is obviously very high end, and they are very excellent speakers - detailed, authoritative, and very neutral.
I own many speakers, but Tony Iommi´s playing has never been so easy to follow.
These speakers are like John Wayne - standing tall and dominating the room, totally in control.
But they need wide open spaces to do that.

At the moment I am using a Yamaha CD player as a transport, with a direct coupled crystal CS4328 D/A chip to a Pioneer A-777.
Will try with more power and bi-amping, asap.

And spend the next weekend placing them right, and taking some pictures.

Many thanks to Titanium Dome, who started this thread, without it I would have ended up with "L7 - what???", and missed a great speaker.


To BMWCCA: My wife actually like these speakers, I encountered only light FLAK from her (say up to 20mm) when bringing in another pair of " large black boxes" - very unusual :)

Audiokarma
10-06-2008, 01:15 PM
Nice score! Hey, I like those aftermarket legs with spikes. I had been contemplating picking up some isolation spikes with inserts that go on bottom to decouple from floor ....but I like those on yours better. I personally prefer the appearance of the L7 without the factory pedestal....I think it's mostly used to provide stability. Did seller happen to mention where he got those legs?

BTW, Did anybody else notice the turntable RIGHT next to the side firing woofer? Yikes..... :blink:

BMWCCA
10-06-2008, 03:04 PM
To BMWCCA: My wife actually like these speakers, I encountered only light FLAK from her (say up to 20mm) when bringing in another pair of " large black boxes" - very unusual :)My wife doesn't even pay any attention anymore. The seller of my pair had apparently kept them sequestered upstairs since he bought them from another medical resident who couldn't take them with him. When he brought them downstairs to show them to me, his wife said she liked them and liked the sound. Good thing they were moving withing the week and had to lessen the burden.

Hope you enjoy them as much as I do. Did the owner attach feet/spikes to the L7s? No plastic platforms? Not sure what the feet do, but mine are just sitting on carpet with the platforms stashed away. Seems like something that heavy on four point loads would actually couple the box with the floor more than the other way around.

Cheap thrills for you I hope?

Titanium Dome
10-06-2008, 03:38 PM
I hope you enjoy them for a long time.

It's true they do exhibit different personalities when in different parts of the room--more than any other speaker I've owned. Their best personality comes out when placed at or close to where JBL recommends.

JBLAddict
11-01-2008, 12:25 PM
L5 finally arrived this week, as I mentioned in the marketplace thread on a current L5 offering, this is my first main set upgrade since my 1975 L100A purchase.....took a while, but finally pulled the trigger on this wonderfully balanced, and aesthetically pleasing set. endless thanks to TiDome for starting this thread.

so far, put in three consecutive late nights going through the CD collection, a/b'ing them with the L100s etc.

mid is obviously much less colored, highs vastly improved, low end cleaner and I don't think at least, less of an impact than the full range 12" --now considering where to go next, but in particular if my '93 Kenwood AVR7050 integrated 100WPC is good/bad/mediocre etc?? any advice there is really appreciated. Am I missing that much by not upgrading the electronics?

That's an LC1 center for what it's worth which I grabbed off buy.com for 240 (same price as the L5 oddly enough). and to repeat, yes, the L100 I painted black to match the decor per the wife's requirements, but after 33yrs of ownership they will always be mine so the customization trumps market value....here's some pics
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/lobianco/CIMG5232.jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/lobianco/CIMG5226.jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/lobianco/CIMG5227.jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/lobianco/CIMG5224.jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/lobianco/CIMG5228.jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/lobianco/CIMG5231.jpg

BMWCCA
11-01-2008, 12:40 PM
mid is obviously much less colored, highs vastly improved, low end cleaner and I don't think at least, less of an impact than the full range 12" --now considering where to go next, but in particular if my '93 Kenwood AVR7050 integrated 100WPC is good/bad/mediocre etc?? any advice there is really appreciated. Am I missing that much by not upgrading the electronics?I can only tell you the more clean power I feed them, the better they sound. I'm actually listening to them right now as the L7s are headed out the door to the great L300/L7 Comparo function tomorrow. Wonderful little speakers but they are getting the benefit of a Crown PS-400. Even at soft levels they sound better with more power. We'll find out tomorrow what some other Luddites think about them. The plan is to take them along with the L7s for a little critique. Maybe A-B them with some 120Ti's and some 4412A's, too. I might even bring along a PS-400 and a PS-200 to compare just what does happen when you double the available power.

Enjoy! :applaud:

JBL 4645
11-01-2008, 12:57 PM
L5 finally arrived this week, as I mentioned in the marketplace thread on a current L5 offering, this is my first main set upgrade since my 1975 L100A purchase.....took a while, but finally pulled the trigger on this wonderfully balanced, and aesthetically pleasing set. endless thanks to TiDome for starting this thread.

so far, put in three consecutive late nights going through the CD collection, a/b'ing them with the L100s etc.

mid is obviously much less colored, highs vastly improved, low end cleaner and I don't think at least, less of an impact than the full range 12" --now considering where to go next, but in particular if my '93 Kenwood AVR7050 integrated 100WPC is good/bad/mediocre etc?? any advice there is really appreciated. Am I missing that much by not upgrading the electronics?

That's an LC1 center for what it's worth which I grabbed off buy.com for 240 (same price as the L5 oddly enough). and to repeat, yes, the L100 I painted black to match the decor per the wife's requirements, but after 33yrs of ownership they will always be mine so the customization trumps market value....here's some pics
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/lobianco/CIMG5232.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/lobianco/CIMG5226.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/lobianco/CIMG5227.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/lobianco/CIMG5224.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/lobianco/CIMG5228.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/lobianco/CIMG5231.jpg


You need to display vertical :D with the images! Not horizontal gave me frigging neck arch looking at it sides ways. Looks like you need to rotate a few vertical images around a few times until displayed correctly as well.

That’s better wow a nice assorted array of different beards of JBL delicious.:)

Hoerninger
11-01-2008, 01:41 PM
Without getting political, the red thing - is that a plumbers part? *)
____________
Peter

*) Function invented by Zilch ;)

JBLAddict
11-01-2008, 03:08 PM
Without getting political, the red thing - is that a plumbers part? *)
____________
Peter

*) Function invented by Zilch ;)

Yes, it is indeed the famous ZilchPlugTM, aka $3 plumbers plug to reduce the hump at 100Hz (?). In particular with my corner placement the boom was magnified and this tightened things up quite a bit

JBLAddict
11-01-2008, 03:13 PM
I can only tell you the more clean power I feed them, the better they sound. I'm actually listening to them right now as the L7s are headed out the door to the great L300/L7 Comparo function tomorrow. Wonderful little speakers but they are getting the benefit of a Crown PS-400. Even at soft levels they sound better with more power. We'll find out tomorrow what some other Luddites think about them. The plan is to take them along with the L7s for a little critique. Maybe A-B them with some 120Ti's and some 4412A's, too. I might even bring along a PS-400 and a PS-200 to compare just what does happen when you double the available power.

Enjoy! :applaud:

would love to have the 120Ti in that mix, as one of the sets I considered in this decision (thought typically more expensive and harder to come by), really looking forward to the report on the JAM-boree.....

BMWCCA
11-06-2008, 09:12 PM
:barf:

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ele/908158529.html

For posterity:

clmrt
11-07-2008, 05:53 AM
Prince needs a little cash.

Either that or one of the Vikings was let go.

Titanium Dome
11-09-2008, 09:32 AM
Wow! Talk about an ignoble end.

Still, one's man's trash(hy look) is another's treasure I guess.

Triple J
11-19-2008, 10:18 PM
I am in the process of moving and was thinking about selling a pair of my mint L5s. So I did a search in order to try to find pricing information. I remember picking up this last pair for like $250 each off eBay and I felt that was a real steal. So to make a long story short I came across this thread. For now I have decided to keep the L5s. I really can't bear the thought on letting them go for the kind of prices they tend to bring on the used speaker market. They are so much better than that, as the rest of you know.

Well, let me tell you about my experience with these speakers. Originally bought a pair of the L5s from Circuit City in the early 90s. They were like my third set of speakers from Circuit City in two months time. I kept upgrading until I found something that really seemed good. I drove these speakers with reciever power amplification until around 2001. Then I was ready to overhaul my system again and get it right finally. At that time I sought out more L series speakers to complete my home theater setup. Initially I wanted L5s in all four corners, and as I mentioned I found a pair on eBay. After placement issues with the L5s in the rear, I decided to get a pair of L1s for the rears. I also found a really good deal on the L1s on eBay. So since I got the L1s, the extra pair of L5s have been in storage. My solution to the center channel issue was to run center in phantom mode, letting my front L and R original L5s also handle center channel. I have always been happy with this arrangement which of course avoids any coloration issues when the center speaker does not match the others.

In my room I found speaker placement to be very important with the L5s and tried to follow JBLs recommendations (which are much the same for the L5s as for the L7s).

As for tweaks I got the internal wiring on both pairs of L5s upgraded at a local stereo shop. The other tweak which I found very good was to spike the stands. The stands came fitted from JBL with inputs for triangular brass spikes which the same shop also carried. So my L5s are on the stands which are each spiked with one brass spike in front and two in back.

The system really came to life when I added a dedicated amplifier with approx 300w/channel x5 (although I was only using 4).

The volume the system can achieve is tremendous. I did blow an 8" woofer on one of the L5s listening to Blue MAn Group DVD Audio. Even though I have a dedicated subwoofer and balanced everything out using Outlaws LFM1 or whatever to cross everything over. I can say on that occasion it never really distorted but the amp actually overpowered the speaker which is very rare with the L series. But they do love the power.

I have found the L series to be the best speakers by far I have heard when setup correctly. Mainly speaker placement and lots of amplifier power are important. The other aspect is the speakers are extremely transparent and revealing and so the rest of the components must be of very high quality. The system is only as good as its weakest link and the L series will reveal this. Lots of times when people are not happy with the L series they had picked up the speakers at a good price point and then setup their systems with other low end parts, CD players and receiver amplification, etc. I think thats why you can find them so cheap when consumers unload them who had gotten into something they did not really know how to appreciate. When setup correctly with a good system these speakers are incredible.

Titanium Dome
11-19-2008, 11:51 PM
Welcome to the forums and thanks for sharing your L Series experience with us.

BMWCCA
11-20-2008, 06:29 AM
The other tweak which I found very good was to spike the stands. The stands came fitted from JBL with inputs for triangular brass spikes which the same shop also carried. So my L5s are on the stands which are each spiked with one brass spike in front and two in back.Got pictures of that mod? I can picture the bottom of the bases and how the spikes would fit, but was that the intention of the casting shape? Seems like it would leave the rather flimsy base-plates exposed to breaking from errant footsteps. Especially on the L7s.

I know it can't be long before you try the L7, too. I can see it in your story. Let us know what you think. ;)

Triple J
11-20-2008, 08:31 PM
Here is a picture of my L5s with the brass spikes. I am rather sure that was the intention in the design of the stands, as I can't imagine why there would have been a triangulated set of sockets under the base that fit these big brass spikes perfect. But I really don't know as I never saw any JBL documentation as such. With the spikes the stands still serve their main purpose of keeping the speakers from easily tipping over.

Triple J
11-20-2008, 08:49 PM
I know it can't be long before you try the L7, too. I can see it in your story. Let us know what you think. ;)


Yes surely that will happen at some point - with the much thinner flat screen and/or wall mounted sets I could easily see some L7s up front. My current set is a rear projection DVD / 1080i model circa 2001 that is about as deep as it is wide so I ruled out the L7s. Plus the room was acoustically challenged so it would not have a chance of doing justice to the L7s. But all that is changing ...

BMWCCA
11-20-2008, 09:21 PM
Here is a picture of my L5s with the brass spikes. I am rather sure that was the intention in the design of the stands, as I can't imagine why there would have been a triangulated set of sockets under the base that fit these big brass spikes perfect. But I really don't know as I never saw any JBL documentation as such. With the spikes the stands still serve their main purpose of keeping the speakers from easily tipping over.Very interesting. Thanks for the pics!

I checked the L7s (easy, since I don't use the bases on those) and they have the same three holes. Any idea what the brand or model number was? Were they threaded or just turned-down? And cost, of course, since I am a bottom-feeder. ;)

Titanium Dome
11-20-2008, 09:26 PM
Interesting. The spikes are actually directly under the bottom of the enclosure, so there's no stress on the flares at all. In fact, the flares are superfluous in this context.

Triple J
11-20-2008, 10:07 PM
Here are a couple other pics so I could better show the type of spikes. They each came with their own socket which screwed into the unthreaded holes in the stands. Then the spikes screw into the sockets. I don't know where to get them but I think a good parts supplier would know. They are about 1 1/8", I did a google and found some similar looking spikes, for instance http://www.soundocity.com/Oregondv/spikes.htm

BMWCCA
11-21-2008, 06:11 AM
Thanks. I had already found that link and another I can't seem to find now that said for JBL use the 6mm versions with no other application information. I'll make some measurements but we have few-to-none suppliers around here to test for fit so mail-order may be a crap shoot I'll have to chance if I want to try them.

Titanium Dome
11-29-2008, 09:05 AM
BMWCCA posted this info in another thread, but I wanted it here for future reference and maybe an informed comment from our member and L7 designer Chris Hagen. Were there Piano Black L7s produced for show or otherwise?

The text:

Titanium Dome
11-29-2008, 09:06 AM
The pictures:

Titanium Dome
11-29-2008, 09:18 AM
Bearing in mind that the fronts, time-aligned baffles, bottoms, and backs are smooth MDF, they would accept a Piano Black finish with ease. However, the sides and top are real ash veneer, and could pose a challenge to an excellent, smooth surface. THe photos are low resolution, so they can't really be blown up for more detail. Both fronts and the back of one speaker in this pair get the most exposure, so it's really hard to tell. From a distance, they look pretty sharp.

Titanium Dome
11-30-2008, 12:10 AM
John W posted this comment and these pictures in another thread. I thought they'd be more accessible here.


Here is a pair of L7's I turned into a 3-way after using the 708s for a different project. They're modeled after the Europe only L-90s and use the upper section of the stock L7 crossover, after removing a couple parts to allow the woofers to run as low as possible. They sound great.

Titanium Dome
01-10-2009, 08:51 PM
I was happy to see the L7s appear briefly to represent JBL in the 1990s in "The JBL Story." It happens quickly at 3:32, though a screen capture of the moment shows the speakers with the woofers facing out. :biting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6zgGgF3i-Q&feature=related

Titanium Dome
01-10-2009, 08:52 PM
Upon further reflection, I suppose that is so you can see the side-mounted woofers. So, I'll let it pass...

Ed K
02-12-2009, 10:27 AM
Hi all:

Looking for two replacement drivers for L5 towers that I have enjoyed since 1992. Started making a flapping sound on the lows (yikes) and I knew things were not good. Suffering with new two way monitors for the time being. Have contacted Harman and they can not locate them. I suspect a foam job may be my only recourse. Any and all advice is appreciated. Ed K

Titanium Dome
02-12-2009, 01:58 PM
Hi all:

Looking for two replacement drivers for L5 towers that I have enjoyed since 1992. Started making a flapping sound on the lows (yikes) and I knew things were not good. Suffering with new two way monitors for the time being. Have contacted Harman and they can not locate them. I suspect a foam job may be my only recourse. Any and all advice is appreciated. Ed K

Hi ED and welcome. Which drivers are the problem? Are they the 8" (bottom) woofers or the 6.5" (second from bottom) midbass drivers?

BMWCCA
02-12-2009, 02:10 PM
Hi all:

Looking for two replacement drivers for L5 towers that I have enjoyed since 1992. Started making a flapping sound on the lows (yikes) and I knew things were not good. Suffering with new two way monitors for the time being. Have contacted Harman and they can not locate them. I suspect a foam job may be my only recourse. Any and all advice is appreciated. Ed K
You may want to post this is a new thread or in the Marketplace since this thread is a pretty old one.

The 708G-1 has been popping up on Ebay a lot recently as people part out L7's to make more money on the individual drivers. Two guys near me have been doing it for a while. This one recently hit the jackpot after months of trying to move these with no interest: http://ebayitem.com (http://ebayitem.com/260358658213)/260358658213 (http://ebayitem.com/260358658213)
For posterity, that was a pair of 708G-1's sold at the Buy-It-Now price of $118. I've seen whole pairs of L5's and L3's sell for less than that with rough boxes (L5 pair for $113 two-weeks ago (http://ebayitem.com/110342056684)) and the entire series, other than the L1, uses that driver.

And yet this guy, who's parted multiple L7s, couldn't get a BIN bid of $49 for his pair of 704G-1's less than two weeks ago: http://ebayitem.com/380099976453
You may want to send him a message or watch his auctions. He seems to be always parting L7s.

If your problem is just a loose surround, you can try re-gluing it.

rdgrimes
02-12-2009, 03:16 PM
I have a pair of 706G-1 that I got on ebay for $10. They tend to bottom out with, um, extreme applications of power. ;) The surrounds seem fine though.

CHagen7
02-14-2009, 09:32 AM
All, I responded to Ed's PM regarding replacing/repairing L-5 woofers, but thought I would share with everyone. This advice really applies to all of the drivers (bear in mind, this is in regard to his 8" woofers, but can be construed for all - and I did edit in some more info to help generalize):

I have seen these on eBay recently. I looked last night but didn't see them anymore. Just keep googling JBL L-7 or L7 and the other models (don't forget the L-3) as well as hunting on eBay. Google will pull eBay stuff up as well, but I've found that those links are usually out of date, so I search eBay directly. Googling for the parts will help search Audiogon, Audioclassics, and other similar sites.

You could go to a factory-authorized re-coner, like Wizard's. I found them on the internet by searching for JBL reconing (or recone). Since they're factory authorized, they should do good work.

VERY IMPORTANT is to use a factory-authorized re-coner with factory-authorized parts! JBL used a special rubber for the 708G-1 (as well as the 4" mid and 6-1/2" for the L-1)surround, called Poron. It is related to neoprene, but has better damping characteristics. If you go to a re-coner who does not use factory parts, you will end up with something different. I wouldn't do this because the L series worked so well.

Now, having said that, JBL may have changed to a normal foam surround for service purposes. But it is STILL better to pay more for the factory-authorized service because when they decided that they would change to a normal foam, they certainly performed the necessary tests to make sure that the driver is still reasonably close in performance. Joe Blow reconer down the street who can't get factory parts can't guarantee what you'll get, other than a speaker that doesn't make bad noise and makes more bass again.

One more edit: I believe there's a guy on eBay RIGHT NOW parting out L-7's...

Chris

Titanium Dome
02-14-2009, 10:36 AM
One more edit: I believe there's a guy on eBay RIGHT NOW parting out L-7's...

Chris

Thanks for the help, Chris.

There's been a flurry of parting out of L7s, which is a real shame. On the one hand, it does provide parts for others; on the other hand, there's a finite number of L7 cabinets and the appropriate components, and I REALLY hate to see the separation of the two. I fear the cabinets will end up destroyed.


:banghead:

Ed K
02-14-2009, 01:40 PM
Thanks all! The 708G-1 driver is what I am seeking, Two actually. I have sent inquiries to a number of JBL approved recone guys. Very Slow to respond and none to happy about that. Figure on getting back ups of all parts.

Feel silly about this one. Guys I got impatient with the silence and all so I bought fancy lil 2 way monitors from Ascend Accoustics thinking I could part ways and live without the big sound to which I had grown accustomed. Doing a sub, an xpa 2 amp (350 wpc @ 6ohms, 250 @ 4 ohm) and still not happy with the results. Accurate yeah, not very loud though. Bottom line: IMO, Newer is not always better. At some point I will find resolution to my problem... Or...I will bronze my speakers.
Ed K edjk13@yahoo.com

Robh3606
02-14-2009, 05:33 PM
Thanks all! The 708G-1 driver is what I am seeking, Two actually. I have sent inquiries to a number of JBL approved recone guys.

There are no recone kits for these drivers. You have to purchase the driver if JBL still has them instock. Same for the 6 and 4 inch drivers from that series. Only the L7's 12 and 035 tweeter had recone kits.

Rob:)

Ed K
02-16-2009, 03:36 PM
Jbl has none in stock and never will. Ready to scrap these as this is proving fruitless. Nearly 16 years of fine service. And..They still look perfect!

I have looked and still can not find any visible damage or seperation. Really bummed. out.

rdgrimes
02-16-2009, 04:03 PM
Jbl has none in stock and never will. Ready to scrap these as this is proving fruitless. Nearly 16 years of fine service. And..They still look perfect!

I have looked and still can not find any visible damage or seperation. Really bummed. out.
There's some L5 parts on ebay right now.

johnaec
02-16-2009, 07:20 PM
I have some 706G's but am not sure which version. I won't have any chance until next weekend to check.

John

Ed K
02-17-2009, 12:04 PM
There's some L5 parts on ebay right now.

Thank You. I have several seaches running and have not had hits on the drivers I really need. Untill 708g-1's are located I can not justify buying other parts. It is nice to know folks are willing to help though. Sweet sound to all-out.

rdgrimes
02-17-2009, 12:41 PM
Thank You. I have several seaches running and have not had hits on the drivers I really need. Untill 708g-1's are located I can not justify buying other parts. It is nice to know folks are willing to help though. Sweet sound to all-out.

there's a pair of L5s and a pair of L3s at auction now, don't they both use 708G?

That's how I approach this stuff. I'd buy another pair and part one out. All kinds of goodies to be had when you part one out and selling parts might even pay for the pair you bought.

But patience will deliver a pair of 708G drivers too. Sooner or later they will turn up.

rlspence
02-17-2009, 09:22 PM
Hi to all.
Been following this thread with interest since the beggining.I have owned a pair of L7's for 17 years and refuse to upgrade.I have upgraded everything else several times,but have yet to find anything else(other than the Focal Utopias) that ring my bell.Well,my mid went out but the speaker is fine.I'm assuming the problem is in the crossover.Is getting a replacement an impossible task.Can it be repaired? Any help would be greatly appreciated.Thanks,Ray

hjames
02-18-2009, 05:35 AM
Hi to all.
Been following this thread with interest since the beggining.I have owned a pair of L7's for 17 years and refuse to upgrade.I have upgraded everything else several times,but have yet to find anything else(other than the Focal Utopias) that ring my bell.Well,my mid went out but the speaker is fine.I'm assuming the problem is in the crossover.Is getting a replacement an impossible task.Can it be repaired? Any help would be greatly appreciated.Thanks,Ray

I've seen a number of folks selling parted out L7s on ebay in the last few months ... I'm guessing tweeters and such are the big seller, crossovers and cabinets usually less so ...
Wait a bit, one should turn up
(tho' you may have to buy a pair to get one ...)

I don't have any personal experience with this seller,
can't vouch for him, but I see he's been selling down a parted-out pair - maybe he has crossovers?
http://myworld.ebay.com/extremesounds100/

Fred Sanford
02-18-2009, 06:19 AM
Hi to all.
Been following this thread with interest since the beggining.I have owned a pair of L7's for 17 years and refuse to upgrade.I have upgraded everything else several times,but have yet to find anything else(other than the Focal Utopias) that ring my bell.Well,my mid went out but the speaker is fine.I'm assuming the problem is in the crossover.Is getting a replacement an impossible task.Can it be repaired? Any help would be greatly appreciated.Thanks,Ray

Why assume? Swap the mids between cabinets and see if the problem moves with the mid (bad mid) or stays with the cab (bad crossover or wiring).

je

BMWCCA
02-18-2009, 06:20 AM
I don't have any personal experience with this seller,
can't vouch for him, but I see he's been selling down a parted-out pair - maybe he has crossovers?He's sold several pairs of L7s as parts. The last two pairs of crossovers he had sold for close to $140 each pair: http://ebayitem.com/380090346325

He sold the last pair of LE120H-1's he had for $250.
I found it hard to believe, too: http://ebayitem.com/380091826503

Seems like I'm sort of foolish not to part out my extra pair. :scold:



Why assume? Swap the mids between cabinets and see if the problem moves with the mid (bad mid) or stays with the cab (bad crossover or wiring).I figured he'd already tried that since he said the speaker was working. :dont-know

rlspence
02-18-2009, 04:30 PM
Why assume? Swap the mids between cabinets and see if the problem moves with the mid (bad mid) or stays with the cab (bad crossover or wiring).

je
Thanks for the replies.Yes,I tested the mid and wiring back to the crossover,they were fine.I also E-mailed several JBL sellers from E-bay-no luck.I guess it will be a waiting game.Crap-I just bought a new Cyrus CD8X CD player too.

Fred Sanford
02-18-2009, 05:20 PM
Thanks for the replies.Yes,I tested the mid and wiring back to the crossover,they were fine.I also E-mailed several JBL sellers from E-bay-no luck.I guess it will be a waiting game.Crap-I just bought a new Cyrus CD8X CD player too.

Sorry, I guess I mis-read your post.

Carry on...

I'm not familiar with these crossovers, how hard would it be to remove it & repair it?

je

rlspence
02-18-2009, 07:55 PM
Easy to remove.I've never heard of anybody actually getting them repaired.I read a thread once that JBL couldn't/wouldn't help.Ive been dreading the day that they crapped out because I knew I'd have this problem.Thanks

Titanium Dome
02-18-2009, 09:08 PM
Easy to remove.I've never heard of anybody actually getting them repaired.I read a thread once that JBL couldn't/wouldn't help.Ive been dreading the day that they crapped out because I knew I'd have this problem.Thanks

Surely there must be some local electronics enthusiast who could help you. He/she ought to be able to look at the parts, identify them, test the values, inspect the solder and wires, and effect a fix. My son is no speaker builder, but I did fund him to several years at DeVry and it's amazing what he can figure out.

Plus, we have the schematics for someone to follow.

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L7%20ts.pdf

Ed K
02-19-2009, 08:46 AM
Well Folks

I am done. After thinking about this I have decided that I will piece out all parts for my beloved L5 speakers. I have had the driver in question checked and it can not be put back to factory spec. So I am breaking them down and selling out everything to fund a DIY or some local Utopias. Good Drivers, servicable crossovers, pristine cabinets, grills, and rare pedestals will be available. Re-Setting my pay pal and moving forward this weekend. I figured since you all have been so helpful I would alert forum folk first.

BMWCCA
02-19-2009, 09:15 AM
After thinking about this I have decided that I will piece out all parts for my beloved L5 speakers.
Sorry to hear of your decision. Certainly they're yours to do whatever you want with, but the reality is the only part of an L5 that brings any money on Ebay is the tweeters and they'll be lucky to net you $75 for the pair after fees and time. L7s have some desirable 12" woofers. The L5s don't.

If it were me (and it well might be some day), I'd give it a little while longer to come up with the one component you need. They're much more fun when they're working than just the leftover bits you'll end up with. If you do decide to part them anyway, put me down for any of the emblems you can remove without damaging them. I'll make sure at least that much lives on the way they were intended. :thmbsup:

Good luck.

Ed K
02-19-2009, 09:24 AM
Sure:blink:

Put me down for any of the emblems you can remove without damaging them. I'll make sure at least that much lives on the way they were intended. :thmbsup:

rlspence
02-20-2009, 10:22 PM
Surely there must be some local electronics enthusiast who could help you. He/she ought to be able to look at the parts, identify them, test the values, inspect the solder and wires, and effect a fix. My son is no speaker builder, but I did fund him to several years at DeVry and it's amazing what he can figure out.

Plus, we have the schematics for someone to follow.

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L7%20ts.pdf
Working on this also.Its a lot harder to find someone to even look at it then I thought it would be.This was the first avenue I took.I figured how hard can it be to test a circuit board when we know exactly what the problem is? I live in the boonies in N.H.-that seems to be the problem.I was hoping someone online would say that it was an easy fix and they could do it.But thats doesn't seem to be the case either.The L7'S are worth my effort-I'll make calls to the BIG city(Boston area)Thanks

grumpy
02-20-2009, 10:46 PM
Before tossing in the towel...

Do R3, R4, or L3 look smoked? Do you have and know how to use an
ohmmeter? These parts are all in series and each could act as a blown
fuse (although both R3 and R4 would have to be blown together).
Across R3 or R4 you should read 2.4 ohms. Across L3, probably less
than an ohm. C7 (whether working or open-circuit) should allow you
to read these values in-circuit (without pulling the parts).

R5 would have to short to keep a signal from coming through
(unlikely).

With an audible, but low signal from your receiver/amp, you -could- work your
way backwards through the 'map' (the schematic diagram) until you get
a signal... just use the speaker as your test probe. Keep the volume down
and you won't hurt the mid.

rlspence
02-22-2009, 11:59 AM
Before tossing in the towel...

Do R3, R4, or L3 look smoked? Do you have and know how to use an
ohmmeter? These parts are all in series and each could act as a blown
fuse (although both R3 and R4 would have to be blown together).
Across R3 or R4 you should read 2.4 ohms. Across L3, probably less
than an ohm. C7 (whether working or open-circuit) should allow you
to read these values in-circuit (without pulling the parts).

R5 would have to short to keep a signal from coming through
(unlikely).

With an audible, but low signal from your receiver/amp, you -could- work your
way backwards through the 'map' (the schematic diagram) until you get
a signal... just use the speaker as your test probe. Keep the volume down
and you won't hurt the mid.
Thanks,this goes to the top of my list.I have called the local Hi-End dealer and they gave me a number,never a return call.

HCSGuy
02-25-2009, 11:45 PM
I found a 708G-1 in my spare parts closet from a pair of L7's I parted out due to a damaged cabinet. If anyone is interested let me know. The driver is in great shape except that the previous owner lightly engraved his ID# on the face of the frame, so the drivers for go, not for show. :( I know I have its mate somewhere...

BMWCCA
02-26-2009, 06:51 AM
If anyone is interested let me know.If no one else speaks out for it and you just want it gone, I'll take it and start the repository for L7 parts to be disseminated to LH members who find themselves in need. Of course I'll pay shipping.

I'm not interested in parting any complete systems out but I can hold on to the leftovers from those who have already. Someday loyal L7/5/3/1 owners will be looking for this stuff. Generally folks sell the tweets and chuck the rest or, in the case of the L7s, the woofers, too. The rest seems to go wanting until an individual need arises. It's a shame to see the stuff just tossed when it might eventually help someone keep one of these future-legacy systems singing. :D

rlspence
02-27-2009, 06:10 PM
You wouldn't have a crossover would you?Thanks,Ray

BMWCCA
02-27-2009, 06:35 PM
You wouldn't have a crossover would you?Thanks,RayI have no parts! Just two high-functioning pair of L7s, one pair of L5, and one pair of L1s. I'm not planning on parting out anything but I will take all donations of L-parts and see that they find good homes as others here need them. That darn Ebay has people believing the crossovers are worth more than the whole system. ;)

Fred Sanford
03-25-2009, 07:12 AM
Hey, no problems on the questions.

You guys with LX’es? Guilty.

HP? Uh huh.


Interesting- this is the first time I've waded through this entire thread sequentially, I'd never caught this before. I'm the one that hosted the L7/4333A shootout last November, and also got to listen to the L1s at that time. I own a pair of HP420s (VERY interesting design approach, I have lots of questions about that series) and have LX300s and LX600s in my parent's systems, which always have impressed me with their sound. Thanks for posting here, and if you're still reading/responding I'd love to hear some thoughts on the HP series evolution. I had a thread here as a start:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=19706

je

CHagen7
03-27-2009, 11:48 PM
John,

You should prefer the L-3 over the L-60T. The absolute bass output is the same, but the 708G-1 in the L-3 is MUCH smoother in its roll-off than the 116H-1.

Chris

CHagen7
03-27-2009, 11:51 PM
Fred,

I DID d othose LX'es, but the HP's I did were the HP-8B, HP-88F, etc. (AH!!!! I can't remember the model names anymore!!!!). THe HP-420, etc. were designed and built in Europe. I DO know something about them, but won't claim credit for designing them. I'm sure I could answer your questions.


Chris

CHagen7
03-28-2009, 12:01 AM
TD,

I haven't been here for a bit 9personal life is wearing me out), but yeah - all the parting out is upsetting. I still have MY L-7's and of course hope they never fail. But I'm in a unique position. If (yes, pessimists, and when) they DO fail, I can design my next generation. It'll be on my dime because we don't do sats where I work now, but that's ok.

But I haven't heard any speakers that sound as musical or play as loud. I did some nice linear things for M&K..........but then they were based on 4" and 5" woofers. And those can't move the air, ya know?

Anyway, I try to stay understanding.


Chris

CHagen7
03-28-2009, 12:09 AM
Ray,

I might have the schematic somewhere for the L-7 crossover. I also have an update crossover schematic....somewhere....that was SUPPOSED to become the L-7DX. This was going to be a high-end, very smooth L-7 that sold with a DX-1 so it would be specifically used in the bi-amped mode. But it worked with the smooth dome tweeter and not the ribbed. And marketing lost interest, so it wasn't introduced. This will all take a little bit to find and get to you, but let me know if you are interested.

I also have test gear and so forth, and I'd certainly be willing to try to help a set of my babies to stay alive and loved. PM me and let's see what can be done.

Chris