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Morfeas
09-28-2005, 07:49 AM
An amazing set of horns which I had the pleasure listening to last night. Spacey technology and a relative result.

Bass driver Altec 515, mid-high TAD 4001.

Morfeas
09-28-2005, 07:51 AM
Another one

Titanium Dome
09-28-2005, 08:23 AM
I like bright, shiny things, but those are beyond my taste. Do they look better in person?

I had a Nissan 200SX-SER that was painted Royal Blue that really looked more purple than blue, but the color changed with the light, so sometimes it was in fact blue. Then it was quite attractive.

Just like some folks have to keep the grilles on the Performance Series to avoid the appearance of the Titanium drivers, I'd have to put a black cloth over those speakers if they sounded good enough to keep. :yes:

Mr. Widget
09-28-2005, 08:54 AM
Mr. Dome,

I'd have to agree with you about the look of those horns and their WAF.... Widget Acceptance Factor, but who ever did them is certainly dedicated. (Do we need a new word for that too?:D) The paint used is a radical flip flop, that was $300 a quart when first introduced. I don't know if it has come down in price, but it certainly isn't trivial.


Looks aside, they are probably very dynamic and accurate between 100Hz and 12KHz... I wonder if there was a sub tucked away somewhere.

Widget

Lancer
09-28-2005, 09:14 AM
The best thing about this forum is that one gets to look at really cool solutions and then thank the stars they don't actually have to live with them.

I'm very impressed with the implementation of that system but I certainly wouldn't want it in my house.

Zilch
09-28-2005, 09:22 AM
They are "Organic."

[Heh.... :p ]

pangea
09-28-2005, 09:34 AM
An amazing set of horns which I had the pleasure listening to last night. Spacey technology and a relative result.

Bass driver Altec 515, mid-high TAD 4001.

Do both horns follow the tractrix curve?

Some of the most exciting and dynamic, as well as clean sounding speakers ever made, have been tractrix horns, equipped with JBL's, Altec's, TAD's, EV's and a few other brands, so, why be that upset about the looks?

I'm sure the guy who made them, is VERY happy with the sound, as well as the looks of tractrix horns.

BR
Roland

EDIT: BTW, do you know why the baffle is curved?

pangea
09-28-2005, 09:44 AM
Mr. Dome,

I'd have to agree with you about the look of those horns and their WAF.... Widget Acceptance Factor, but who ever did them is certainly dedicated. (Do we need a new word for that too?:D) The paint used is a radical flip flop, that was $300 a quart when first introduced. I don't know if it has come down in price, but it certainly isn't trivial.


Looks aside, they are probably very dynamic and accurate between 100Hz and 12KHz... I wonder if there was a sub tucked away somewhere.

Widget

Why not? How about "Edgarfidelity"? :D

BR
Roland

spkrman57
09-28-2005, 10:15 AM
As a user of Edgarhorns(round wooden salad bowls), I have had the 650hz/350hz and on order and due soon(Bruce is not the quickest in the business) is my 500hz to use with my Great Plains 399 1.4" drivers.

I have found the sound(or lack of added sound) of wood horns to far surpass horns made of metal and or plastic.

But that is my opinion!

Ron

Lancer
09-28-2005, 10:47 AM
What about sonoglass? :p

Titanium Dome
09-28-2005, 10:57 AM
What about sonoglass? :p

IMO :yes:

spkrman57
09-28-2005, 11:56 AM
I have found the sound eminating from the wooden horns is not as lively as with horns made of other materials. I have come to the opinion that metal/plastic/fiberglass horns are vibrating and create more output than the original sound source intended.

The only metal horns I have enjoyed using have been heavily damped like the Altec 311-60(Aquaplas) or something like that. Even wooden horns with aluminum throats have a higher level of upper midrange output than with all wood designed horns.

Ron

Zilch
09-28-2005, 01:36 PM
Mr. Widget can tell us how much it actually weighs, but having handled the H9800 Sonoglas horn, I can tell you it is massively dense in comparison to all others I have seen.

Morfeas
09-28-2005, 01:38 PM
Do both horns follow the tractrix curve?
EDIT: BTW, do you know why the baffle is curved?

Yes they follow the tractrix curve.
No, I don't know why the baffle is curved.

The construction it is quiet complex. The guy runs a business that builds polyester/epoxy/carbon parts for cars. The horns are build with some epoxy & carbon fibber using a technique that vacuum is guarantied. Both horns are double layer with heavy dumping between them (some lead-sand combination I suppose). The mid hi horn weight >50Kgr apart the driver.



Yes, they are the most dynamic speaker I have ever auditioned. IMO they donít need a sub except if you run them in a HT. The rear of the 515 is loaded with bass reflex. You can see the four reflex ports on the corners of the bass horn.



As for the looks I would agree with you. Not my taste either. The paint job is the kind that changes colour depending on light usually seen on tuned cars.



But IF I could get my hands on them I would see with my ears and believe me they look beautiful.


Enjoy

edgewound
09-28-2005, 02:26 PM
A round horn or wave guide doesn't physically distort the sound wavefront propagating from the horn...that's what makes them sound more natural and smoother...fewer peaks/nulls/anomallys in the actual soundwave. Square and rectangular horns are designed for larger arrays to facilitate pattern coverage and control...think of stacking bricks tightly together versus stacking cylinders tightly together. When used alone though, the round wave guide sound more natural with less distortion with a broader listening window.

Mr. Widget
09-28-2005, 02:56 PM
A round horn or wave guide doesn't physically distort the sound wavefront propagating from the horn...that's what makes them sound more natural and smoother...fewer peaks/nulls/anomallys in the actual soundwave. Square and rectangular horns are designed for larger arrays to facilitate pattern coverage and control...think of stacking bricks tightly together versus stacking cylinders tightly together. When used alone though, the round wave guide sound more natural with less distortion with a broader listening window.True in theory, but in the real world I believe it is more complicated than that. I have heard great round horns and pretty crappy ones too. The same goes for oval and rectangular horns as well.


Widget

edgewound
09-28-2005, 03:09 PM
True in theory, but in the real world I believe it is more complicated than that. I have heard great round horns and pretty crappy ones too. The same goes for oval and rectangular horns as well.


Widget

Ok....let me qualify it further. All other things being equal when applying the theory....such as horn build quality, same drivers, crossover frequency, loading, etc. The round wave guide, such as in the Tannoy Dual Concentric cone is predominantly responsible for the more "laidback", "refined" qualities....lower physical wavefront distortion....that's the physics part.

Mr. Widget
09-28-2005, 03:13 PM
I'll go along with that, but for example I doubt anyone would call the round 2307 horn "laid back".

Widget

edgewound
09-28-2005, 03:17 PM
I'll go along with that, but for example I doubt anyone would call the round 2307 horn "laid back".

Widget

Yeah...I hear ya on that one....more like a bazooka. But maybe at 100 yards it could be.

yggdrasil
09-28-2005, 03:24 PM
And H93 being the really big bazooka!;)

pangea
09-28-2005, 03:50 PM
Isn't the tractrix, a better curve all together, than the exponential?

BR
Roland

Mr. Widget
09-28-2005, 03:56 PM
Blondes and Brunettes... they can both suck.

Did I really say that? That sounds more like another frequent poster here.:hmm:



Widget

Mr. Widget
09-28-2005, 03:58 PM
Isn't the tractrix, a better curve all together, than the exponential?

Putting my more serious cap back on... in general I would agree. Many prefer exponential for bass horns.


Widget

pangea
09-28-2005, 04:05 PM
Putting my more serious cap back on... in general I would agree. Many prefer exponential for bass horns.


Widget

Well, I was mainly referring to horns attached to CD's like the 1" and 2" drivers.

BR
Roland

Robh3606
09-28-2005, 06:25 PM
"I'll go along with that, but for example I doubt anyone would call the round 2307 horn "laid back"."



Hey Widget

Your just spoiled playing with the new stuff:blink: There not that bad. I agree they can be a bit aggressive especially with no lense. But as long as you have them balanced correctly with the rest of the drivers in the system they can sound very good. If anything the CD horns like the 2344/42 are laid back compared to the 2307. So what sounds better the varying Q of the 2307 or the electrical EQ used to compensate the CD'S???? The Tractrix that Dr. Edgar uses in the Titans sounds really good.

Rob:)

Mr. Widget
09-28-2005, 06:47 PM
Hey, I wasn't bad mouthing the 2307... just pointing out that just because it's round doesn't mean it'll be smooth as a pair of (see below)... of course, those are aided with a ton of passive EQ too.;)


Widget

Robh3606
09-28-2005, 08:04 PM
"Hey, I wasn't bad mouthing the 2307... just pointing out that just because it's round doesn't mean it'll be smooth as a pair of (see below)... of course, those are aided with a ton of passive EQ too.http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/wink.gif'

I got ya!

Rob:)

DS-21
09-28-2005, 09:07 PM
Wow. Is that a tapped horn like Tom Danley's latest supertoys? (http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/)

JumBLe
09-28-2005, 09:22 PM
Morfeas,

was that little grey Philips AG9016-integrated driving horns?
I have similar amp, yearmodel 1963. Single-ended 2x2W (2xEL95), with surprisingly good sound... :yes:

- JumBLe -

Morfeas
09-29-2005, 12:29 AM
Morfeas,

was that little grey Philips AG9016-integrated driving horns?
I have similar amp, yearmodel 1963. Single-ended 2x2W (2xEL95), with surprisingly good sound... :yes:

- JumBLe -

No, it was a AN Ongaku clone. IMO and the owner's it was not up to the task of driving the horns. He is going to bi-amp with PP for the low and a SET for hi. He also holds a quiet impresive collection of tuners, receivers and of course vintage drivers.

Look at the baby below :)

Mr. Widget
09-29-2005, 12:36 AM
We did run rather tangentially... thanks for sharing these amazing speakers and cool gear with us!


Widget

Titanium Dome
09-29-2005, 08:22 AM
No, it was a AN Ongaku clone. IMO and the owner's it was not up to the task of driving the horns. He is going to bi-amp with PP for the low and a SET for hi. He also holds a quiet impresive collection of tuners, receivers and of course vintage drivers.

Look at the baby below :)

I dig the simplicity.

P.Warner
09-29-2005, 08:28 PM
What might the low end response curve look like? I'd love to get a 515 to do well in a small size like that.

Mr. Widget
09-29-2005, 09:10 PM
What might the low end response curve look like? I'd love to get a 515 to do well in a small size like that.You'll notice that the speakers are stuck back into corners... they really need the help. A small front firing horn of this scale will really drop off in response below 120Hz or so. With the help of the bass reflex ports and corner loading I'd say you might be getting usable response to 70Hz or so. For some people and some types of music that is fine. For me, I really do like response to 30Hz... even lower if I can get it. It's not that most of the music I listen to requires this performance, but when the music has VLF it really adds realism to the reproduction.


Widget

scott fitlin
09-30-2005, 09:49 AM
Those horns probably sound great in the the midbass through upper mids! I like the Altec woofers, but they dont get down really low, but the midbass they make is great!

My option for this setup would be to have a supreme quality subwoofer to mate with these horns.

hmolwitz
09-30-2005, 05:39 PM
I have a pair of 515-8g and I have been pondering how to get them to the last octave in a modest cabinet without active EQ and cannot seem to make it work with this FlexSys program I have been playing with, it always starts to taper off at 100 HZ or so. Anyone have any better ideas?
I would prefer a tuned port conventional rather than a horn cabinet due to space considerations.
Harry

Morfeas
10-01-2005, 12:17 AM
One more detail.

The volume of the BR (excluding the horn) is 250lt. I do not know how low it would measure but to my ears the system was chalenging the room in the low end.

hmolwitz
10-01-2005, 05:04 AM
8.8 cubic feet, but that cabinet looks way to complicated for me to build. Maybe someone will post the dimensions for the 4685 and I can adapt that.

edgewound
10-01-2005, 10:04 AM
I have a pair of 515-8g and I have been pondering how to get them to the last octave in a modest cabinet without active EQ and cannot seem to make it work with this FlexSys program I have been playing with, it always starts to taper off at 100 HZ or so. Anyone have any better ideas?
I would prefer a tuned port conventional rather than a horn cabinet due to space considerations.
Harry

Try a passive radiator enclosure. It's proabably the best compromise to get deep bass out of a small enclosure....and tuning it is relativley easy and flexible compared to a bass reflex enclosure. You can locate the PR on the rear of the enclosure.

Zilch
10-01-2005, 10:32 AM
4685 TCB subwoof? That ain't "modest." :p