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Titanium Dome
09-07-2005, 08:14 PM
So it won't be obscured by the Array Series discussion, I wanted to get the new Studio L Series some air time. It's no slouch.

So here we go!

http://www.cinenow.com/us/article.php3/id,1838/

Titanium Dome
09-07-2005, 08:19 PM
For an extended view, go here. Don't be fooled by the beginning; keep reading until you get to the loudspeaker specific information.

http://blog.ce-pro.com/news/products/2131.html

Titanium Dome
09-07-2005, 08:50 PM
All right, look at the value equation on these babies. It's fantastic.

Cost-wise these slot in above the E Series and just barely above the HT Series. It meshes pretty well price wise with the current Studio Series, but it's a whole lot more. It's a full-bodied series with real towers and a real center, which the Studio Series lacks.

It appears that it's a lot more value than either the HT or the Studio Series, and IMO fills a big consumer gap between the E Series and the Performance Series. The HT Series and Studio Series may not be long for this world.

In fact, it might be a better value equation than the Performance Series, though until I hear it, that's pure conjecture. Can it beat the PS? Well, of course not :p because those "PolyPlas™ polymer-coated-cellulose-fiber cone" drivers are my third favorite. #1? Ti inverted domes, of course!

Still the prices are far less than half the PS prices... :hmm:

Don C
09-07-2005, 09:49 PM
At first I was pleased to see the return of the Studio series, they were the speakers that I liked to reccomend to friends. (S-38 in particular)
But now I'm just annoyed. They have added a useless super tweeter that no human will be able to hear. Crossover frequency at 20 Khz? They couldn't find any better way to spend the money than to add this useless marketing gimmick? How many engineers must have protested this nonsense? It must be the Monster cable effect, they figure that if Monster can make millions selling improvements that no one can actually hear, they should get in on the act too. It's another decision that puts marketing ahead of sound quality.

JBLnsince1959
09-08-2005, 06:33 AM
They have added a useless super tweeter that no human will be able to hear. Crossover frequency at 20 Khz? They couldn't find any better way to spend the money than to add this useless marketing gimmick? .

to be fair we must look at the big picture here. It takes years to brainstorm, design, test prototypes, redesign, setup production and produce a speaker. In fact the speaker you see being released today may have it's beginning in brainstorming back in 2001 or 2002 or even earlier.

at that time the mantra for the entire industry was:
SACD and DVD-audio
SACD and DVD-audio
SACD and DVD-audio
SACD and DVD-audio

reproduce the entire spectrum from 20 to 50,000!!!!

Look at the current K2 and it too was following this mantra ( ahead of other speakers) and of course one of the purposes of the statement speakers is to provide R&D for new ideas and technogies that will over the next few years trickle down into the less expensive speakers lines.

So my point here is that the super tweeter you see today in the Studio L speakers is not just a cheap marketing ploy, but instead an attemp to incorporate the latest tech in the mass speaker lines( altho in a less expensive implemenation). And any company who takes pride in their products will NEVER allow their products to appear OLD TECH. they just can't do it in todays market.

Also, we must understand the general purpose or rational behind the studio speaker line( if I understand this correctly). If the Northridge series is the general speaker for the masses, then the studio line is their "Statement Speaker" for the masses, incorporating as much new tech from their studio and high-end statement speakers as possible but at a much less expensive implemenation.

so I'm really liking what they have done and I'm looking forward to hearing these puppies and I will most likely buy some when they're out ( have to sell something else first)

well, got to go to work. I'll write more later if I get the time.

Hey, JBL thanks for the new speakers..we love ya..

JBLnsince1959
09-09-2005, 10:26 AM
Hi DRG or Techbot: ( I hope you see this)

I have some questions I wanted to ask about in the Array thread ( because I know someone from JBL is looking) However, since the Array thread has been closed??????? I have to go here.

1. Are there White Papers or a Brochure for the new Studio L series ( scans or PDF would be OK)
2. Are the Studio L series going to be in Best Buy or other mass market stores like the previous studio series was at Best Buy some time ago and what is the release date on them?

Thanks.....

Titanium Dome
09-09-2005, 11:34 AM
Yes, I'll second that request. :yes:

JBLnsince1959
09-09-2005, 12:05 PM
Hey Dome:

any idea why the Array thread was closed????

Zilch
09-09-2005, 12:34 PM
I suspect because it turned into JBL bashing.... :(

GordonW
09-09-2005, 12:50 PM
At first I was pleased to see the return of the Studio series, they were the speakers that I liked to reccomend to friends. (S-38 in particular)
But now I'm just annoyed. They have added a useless super tweeter that no human will be able to hear.

Couple of salient points here:

1) Just because the crossover point is 20KHz, does NOT mean that there IS NOT any output BELOW 20KHz. Most likely, these will have a first-order slope... which means their output will only be 9 dB down at 10KHz. Still enough to augment a falling response from a dome tweeter (they all tend to "roll over" at 15KHz or so, noticably, at least those capable of low end heft (ie, crossover points lower than 2.5KHz for the main tweeter).

2) Even IF they only primarily only operate above 20KHz, there are STILL SIGNIFICANT PHASE CONSIDERATIONS, down to TWO OCTAVES below that. To get a system linear (ie, NO drop off between 20 and 40KHz) in the upper range, will GREATLY help the phase response of the system, even down to 5kHz.

3) and the proof being in the pudding and all that... I've HEARD the difference made, with adding supertweeters to speakers "nominally rated" to go up to 20KHz already. Even very highly-regarded speakers such as Martin-Logan Prodigys, have AUDIBLY benefited, in my direct first-hand experience, from the addition of a supertweeter such as the Tannoy ST100 or the LCY 100K ribbon supertweeter. The surprising thing? The BIGGEST percieved benefit, is in BASS FEEl... the actual perception of TRANSIENTS in the BASS, such as the plucking of an upright bass, and such. It simply, to say it in normal terms, makes bass MORE LIKE LIFE. And this difference has been shown to exist on SEVERAL different types of speakers, here at my location.. adding the supertweeters to Tannoy S10s, JBL L100s, EV 12TRXbs (which already had modified crossovers, which "propped up" their response to around 18 or 19KHz!)... a wide variety of different models...

Don't discount the potential benefit of a supertweeter, just because old textbook thinking says they're "unnecesary". Heck, at one point "conventional wisdom" also said you didn't need response below 30 Hz either. Funny how things change, as the ability to MEET NEW PERFORMANCE levels readily, comes about...

Regards,
Gordon.

JBLnsince1959
09-09-2005, 01:06 PM
I suspect because it turned into JBL bashing.... :(

I was afraid of that......It's just that it can be frustrating for us fans when we can't find what we love. I'm sure there are many things we don't know about and in our ignorance we bash ...sigh,

Anyway, I really hope that Best Buy or another store will carry the new Sudio L line. Really looks exciting and I'm sure they would sell well.

I bought the Studio S312 ( wish I had bought the 412 also) back about 41/2 ( or 5) years ago and I'm still amazed at how good it sounds and the price - WOW - what a bargin. They really sound as good or better than speakers 2 or 4 times their price and with the new improvements I'm sure they'll sound even better. I guided to lot of friends to that series and they are all pleased and now JBL fans.From what i've read they worked on areas that I thought they should. These should be outstanding speakers for the money.

As much as we "old timers" still live in the "glory days" of the JBL speakers from the 70's or the old studio montiors, the new speakers are really better in so many ways, even those that are designed for the masses. I know that's not a popular theme on this site, but it's true. 30 to 20 years of R&D has made a difference IMHO and a lot of that is incorporated into the less expensive lines.

JBLnsince1959
09-09-2005, 01:15 PM
Couple of salient points here:

1) Just because the crossover point is 20KHz, does NOT mean that there IS NOT any output BELOW 20KHz

3) the actual perception of TRANSIENTS in the BASS, such as the plucking of an upright bass, and such. It simply, to say it in normal terms, makes bass MORE LIKE LIFE. And this difference has been shown to exist on SEVERAL different types of speakers, here at my location.. .

Exactly, it is the transients and upper harmonics that tell us much of the character of what we hear, even the bass. My experience follows alone the same lines. AND thats' one of the reasons why I'm so excited about these new speakers. It's exactly what they needed to do. I'm also glad to see some internal bracing and other things.

Don C
09-09-2005, 01:36 PM
I'll know that their decision was based on sound engineering when I see the same supertweeter on the LSR series.

JBLnsince1959
09-09-2005, 01:58 PM
I'll know that their decision was based on sound engineering when I see the same supertweeter on the LSR series.

so having it on the flagship K2 isn't good enough for you? :blink:

Don C
09-09-2005, 02:23 PM
so having it on the flagship K2 isn't good enough for you? :blink:
No, totally different situation, the K2 needs the supertweeter, and crossover is at 10 Khz.

JBLnsince1959
09-09-2005, 02:56 PM
and you think the beryllium 435Be compression driver couldn't have made it to 20,000 if they wanted to? Look at what they did with aluminum on other systems ( 4430 comes to mind)

These are the most experienced people on the planet in designing compression drivers and implementing them into systems. If they can get aluminum and titanium to go to 20,000 in systems I have no doubt that beryllium could have, Tad seems to have done it pretty good.

The supertweeter was NOT needed in the K2 , it was choosen. They could have gotten the 435Be to do upto 20,000 very easily.

I may question some things about JBL, (marketing for example) and have a few bitches here or there. But one thing I don't question is the engineering talent and knowledge these people have. This is the company that has more experience in testing their products than any other company.

I really don't think that GT and the other engineers sit around and think about how they can flim-flam people with useless Tricks to get people to buy, nor do I think they are ignorant about what they put in their speakers.

well anyway, you have your opinion and I have mine. I'm thru writing about this aspect of the Studio L.

hey guys any white papers or brochures. Sure could use some objective data, particualrly with the super tweeter :D

Mr. Widget
09-09-2005, 03:37 PM
and you think the beryllium 435Be compression driver couldn't have made it to 20,000 if they wanted to?.... They could have gotten the 435Be to do upto 20,000 very easily.

I agree with your premise that the "DC to Light" specs that are being sought after today are mostly market driven, but I have heard many of the best compression drivers from JBL and TAD and none of them reproduce 20KHz (or 18KHz for that matter) as well as the 045Be.



The supertweeter was NOT needed in the K2 , it was choosen.
I agree with this statement. I would suggest that it was chosen to make the K2-S9800 a much better speaker than it would have been without it... and I am not talking about the performance above 20KHz either. There is simply a finesse to the sound that it wouldn't have if they had muscled the 435Be into super tweeter duty.


Widget

Titanium Dome
09-09-2005, 04:14 PM
OK, where's the supertweeter bolt-on for the Performance Series? I smell a project!

Who's going first? :bouncy:

Zilch
09-09-2005, 04:27 PM
Who's going first? :bouncy:I have already gone. :p

I'd say there's a difference between 045Be and the monolythic mylar doodah they're using in L-Series.

I doubt they'll replace the 053Tis in LSR with either anytime soon....

[Or is it "dudah?"]

Mr. Widget
09-09-2005, 05:06 PM
OK, where's the supertweeter bolt-on for the Performance Series? I smell a project!


Well, it may not be a Ti inverted dome, but how about this Be inverted dome for ya?

Widget

JBLnsince1959
09-09-2005, 05:29 PM
I agree with your premise that the "DC to Light" specs that are being sought after today are mostly market driven, but I have heard many of the best compression drivers from JBL and TAD and none of them reproduce 20KHz (or 18KHz for that matter) as well as the 045Be.



Widget

true, but I also meant that they can design the whole system around that. They have lots of experience with pure two ways.

and also, they didn't have to use a tweeter that went that high. They could have used something that only went to 20 to 22. I personally feel thay think it was for better sound.


Well, it may not be a Ti inverted dome, but how about this Be inverted dome for ya?

Widget

Is that the one used in JM Labs speakers?

I was thinking of using that one for a project.

Lancer
09-09-2005, 06:23 PM
There is simply a finesse to the sound that it wouldn't have if they had muscled the 435Be into super tweeter duty.


WidgetYou are right on the mark.

OK, where's the supertweeter bolt-on for the Performance Series?Doesn't need one.

Mr. Widget
09-09-2005, 06:23 PM
They could have used something that only went to 20 to 22.

Well, I'd argue that the 045Be really does only go to 20 or 22KHz... it goes out to 50KHz but it is so far down in output compared to it's output at 10KHz.... not that it really matters.

Personally I don't care if the marketing department wants to make a big deal about a speaker that only dogs can hear as long as it sounds good to humans too.:applaud:


Is that the one used in JM Labs speakers?
I was thinking of using that one for a project.
Yep. I doubt you will be able to get them though. Like so many companies, the nice people at Focal are getting out of the DIY business.


Widget

JBLnsince1959
09-09-2005, 08:02 PM
.

Personally I don't care if the marketing department wants to make a big deal about a speaker that only dogs can hear as long as it sounds good to humans too.:applaud:

Widget

Well, Whit ( My GS) would like it :D




Yep. I doubt you will be able to get them though. Like so many companies, the nice people at Focal are getting out of the DIY business.


Widget

I can get one from some friends who sell JM Labs. ;)

JBLnsince1959
09-09-2005, 08:08 PM
OK, where's the supertweeter bolt-on for the Performance Series?




Doesn't need one.



Agree, just need some CC crossovers......... :applaud:
and maybe a single baffle box ;)

Zilch
09-09-2005, 11:54 PM
:hmm:

They're 045Ti, actually, not Be....

Ian Mackenzie
09-10-2005, 05:02 AM
I agree with your premise that the "DC to Light" specs that are being sought after today are mostly market driven, but I have heard many of the best compression drivers from JBL and TAD and none of them reproduce 20KHz (or 18KHz for that matter) as well as the 045Be.


I agree with this statement. I would suggest that it was chosen to make the K2-S9800 a much better speaker than it would have been without it... and I am not talking about the performance above 20KHz either. There is simply a finesse to the sound that it wouldn't have if they had muscled the 435Be into super tweeter duty.


Widget

Well who really cares what you agree and don't agree with, this is an open forum community and your comments to an open media sound like a judgement call than moderation...check your RULES.

AS usual you are all right and you are all wrong.

Pity the facts are not correctly and fully represented.:snore:

So for moderators casting their own limited and naive technical stature in a discussion....that should be chiselled as a Do NOT into the rule book.


Yawn...............

Ian

Some of you might be surprised why I am making these post.

No I am not picking on the Widget..but he wants to have a hard look at himself in the mirror...denial is a disease.

Today I cleaned my in and out box. To my surprise over a dozen messages were issues raised in reference to moderation notabely conduct of moderators.

Its rather unfortunately that in such a high profile forum we have people who simply do not practise what they preach. Its not surprising they get such a tough time of it from members.......

Ian Mackenzie
09-10-2005, 05:28 AM
Hey Dome:

any idea why the Array thread was closed????

You as a member have a right to a PUBLIC answer of that question raised.

A non answer is misleading and deceptive in conduct.

For moral and ethical reasons Don should come forward an offer an explanation.

Ian

Lancer
09-10-2005, 06:08 AM
You as a member have a right to a PUBLIC answer of that question raised.

A non answer is misleading and deceptive in conduct.

For moral and ethical reasons Don should come forward an offer an explanation.

IanHere's my real quick explanation. I don't want to waste too much of my life's time on something elaborate.

1. I asked that the thread be closed.
2. The story behind my request is long, dates back to a friendly request from JBL made over a year ago, has to do with Harman Japan, Northridge, and Woodbury, and I don't feel like getting into it. Take my word for it, the story is boring; quite uninteresting.
3. JBL had the opportunity to review the thread.
4. JBL graciously sent over some documents for us.
5. The thread can now be opened if desired.

Ian Mackenzie
09-10-2005, 07:49 AM
Thanks Lancer,

At least someone is on the ball....and I admire your candid and transparent disclosure.

Its about playing the game straight you have to be playing the game straight.

If those in a position of responsibility can't abide by the rules they should step aside..period. Thankfully someone has come forward.

Earl,

This is not a knee jerk reaction, you must think I am asleep, read on:

I expect this issue will wind up there. The problem with controls is that the controls themselves tend to lack the documentation of the enforcement.

That's my point, Moderators have the advantage of sitting behind a one way mirror just like a detective cop TV show...what you see is only part of the picture...layers of it.

The point is by virtue of Moderator status being an Icon, a moderator can influence, steer or manipulate the direction of a thread whether an opinion is intended or other wise and this is an area we as a community need to deal with. Many forum members feel inhibited or frightened off by the presence of a moderator in threads, and to use those words highlighted in RED is frankly a blight on free speaking members..... This is not the purpose of moderation.

If a moderator wishes to enter a discussion, a mechanism needs to be developed where the moderator icon is turned off or they enter the thread on another identity.

As to the rules I refer to the highlighted RED paragraphs below:

YOU will note the reference to Forums issues, below is a link to the last posted thread in Forum Issues, how appropriate...

Happy B-Day Ian (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7105)


Moderators will only intervene if they discover violations of the forum guidelines. In general, this means:

1. Dealing with threads in inappropriate forums.
2. Dealing with inflammatory posts.
3. Dealing with name calling or ad hominem attacks.
4. Dealing with violations of intellectual property.

The following actions are available to the moderators to deal with these issues, depending on the type and severity of the violation.

1. Issuing the subject party a reminder or warning about a potential or existing violation of the forum guidelines.
2. Moving inappropriately located threads to their proper location
3. Closing a thread to further input
4. Deleting posts if deemed a serious breach of the forum guidelines
5. Deleting an entire thread if deemed a serious breach of the forum guidelines
6. Banning a member.


The first recourse for a moderator should always be to try and work out any perceived infraction of the guidelines with the responsible member. This is preferably done through PM’s as opposed to an open forum message to that member. However, there may be occasions where an open post is most appropriate, specifically if it involves infractions by more than one person in a given thread.

If a moderator deems that a thread should be moved, the originator of that thread must always be contacted to explain the action through a PM. Whether this occurs in advance or after the fact depends on how clear cut the violation is. For example someone posting a “for sale” notice in the “General” forum is in obvious violation of the posting guidelines. Such a post would be moved directly and the originator would sent a PM to notify him of the move and why it occurred.

Where it is less clear that a thread is off topic, then the originator should be sent a PM in advance of any action to indicate why it is perceived to be in violation of the guidelines and offering an opportunity for input from the originator. The final decision to move or keep the thread will be the moderator’s.

Closing a thread to further input is a fairly drastic measure and should only be used if it is apparent that continuing the discussion has a significant risk of escalating violations. The moderator taking this action must post a final message in the thread explaining that it is now closed and why. The moderator should also let it be known that questions about this action can be made in the “Forum Issues” board or in a direct PM to the moderator in question.

Deleting posts and threads are the most serious actions a moderator can take short of banning a member. The actions themselves have the potential to inflame members and discussions. Because of this, the first recourse of a moderator should be to ask a member in violation to edit or delete the offending post themselves. After 24hrs of posting, members no longer have editing access to their messages. In such a case, the moderator should request permission to edit or delete an offending post. If permission is not granted, the moderator has the final decision on whether to proceed with the edit or deletion. The originator must be contacted again if these actions are taken and given notice that they have occurred. For all posts edited or deleted by the moderator, the post field labelled “Reason for edit/deletion” must be filled out by that moderator.

Posts can be deleted or edited without prior notice by the moderator if it is obvious that waiting for notification has the potential to escalate a situation. For example, profane name calling will be dealt with immediately. Violations of intellectual property rights (posting proprietary or copyrighted materials) will also be dealt with immediately when brought to a moderator’s attention. In these cases, the originator must be notified that these actions have been taken.

All deletions by the moderators are “soft deletions”, meaning they are not physically removed. These posts can therefore be “undeleted”. If a member feels that his post has been unfairly deleted by a moderator, they can make an appeal to the Administrator to have the post reviewed. The Administrator will consult with all of the moderators to make a final decision. If, in hindsight, the post is deemed to not be in violation, it will be restored. Otherwise it will remain deleted.

Deleting a thread is an order of magnitude more serious than deleting a post since it generally involves messages from numerous members, and very often innocent bystanders. This action shall only be taken if it the infractions cannot be dealt with by deleting or editing specific posts. For example, if a sufficient number of posts must be deleted so that it results in the loss of coherency of a thread, then the thread may be deleted. As a further example, if the thread topic itself is in violation of the forum rules, then the entire thread may be deleted. All thread deletions must be accompanied by a new post by the moderator in the “Forum Issues” board with notice that the deletion has occurred, the rationale for the deletion, and an offer to discuss an appeal. The entire moderating team will decide any appeal requests to restore a deleted thread.

Banning is the most serious action that can be taken on the forum. Banning can only be performed by the administrator with concurrence of the moderators. Banning can be temporary or permanent depending on the infraction. For example, physical threats will result in an immediate permanent ban. Spammers will also be subject to an immediate permanent ban. Lesser offences will be dealt with on a case by case basis by the entire moderating team. In general, banning will be limited to repeated, flagrant abuses by a member or abuse so egregious that no action short of banning would suffice. In the case of repeated abuse, the moderators should first warn the offender that continued violations have the potential to result in a ban

In every case, a banned member will be sent an email notifying them of the ban's existence, the duration and the reason. The member may appeal to the moderating team to reconsider. Bans will only be reconsidered if the member can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the entire moderating team why a ban would be inappropriate for the circumstances.

As a final word, it should be obvious in reading through the above that openness, communication and understanding are the guiding principles of moderation for this forum. For this reason, the moderators must never act without making the impacted parties aware of their actions. They must always give reasons for their actions and opportunities for recourse.



__________________
Regards

Don McRitchie
Webmaster
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andresohc
09-10-2005, 08:26 AM
The moderators are some of the most knowledgeable and well respected people on the site and I appreciate and enjoy reading posts with opinions and am capable of judging the difference between moderating tasks and opinions.

I miss seeing more posts from the moderators. I feel their inputs have been the foundation of the site. I hope we dont establish rules that make them reconsider every posted opinion. Bottom line I appreciate informed input about speakers, opinions or fact if based on intelligence and thought.

Titanium Dome
09-10-2005, 08:58 AM
All right


Thanks Lancer,

At least someone is on the ball....and I admire your candid and transparent disclosure.

Its about playing the game straight you have to be playing the game straight.

If those in a position of responsibility can't abide by the rules they should step aside..period. Thankfully someone has come forward.

I go to bed, I get up, the thread has gone completely OT, there are references like this that make no sense to me (reference from Lancer removed maybe?). :wtf:

Two threads that were exciting to me, one on the Array Series and now this one on the Studio L Series, are now messsed up. I just wanted to talk about new JBL speakers. This is big news, good news.

What's really going on here? Obviously I'm clueless. :dont-know

Lancer
09-10-2005, 09:08 AM
Oh yeah, I removed it. Feel free to reinstate my post if desired. I figured Don could say it better than I could.

Mr. Widget
09-10-2005, 09:11 AM
Well who really cares what you agree and don't agree with, this is an open forum community and your comments to an open media sound like a judgement call than moderation...check your RULES.

My mother cares! Beyond that take it with what ever type of salt you like. Of course its an opinion. I can back it up with facts and figures and we can start a thread debating it if you like.

The rules specifically state that contradictory view points and criticisms are OK as long as they are not about fellow forum members.

Now, if I were to call you a jerk, that would be out of line so I never would. I wouldn't even publicly say you were acting like one, which in my opinion is different than being one, but as I all too often do, I digress.


Widget

Mr. Widget
09-10-2005, 10:13 AM
Oh yeah, I removed it. Feel free to reinstate my post if desired. I figured Don could say it better than I could.

It's been undeleeted.

Titanium Dome
09-10-2005, 10:45 AM
Thanks, that helps a bit.

Akira
09-10-2005, 11:34 AM
i agree with TD. this started out to be a good thread...i precieved no infraction or condesention, someone agrees with someone else in a friendly way...why would anyone feel insult? :wtf:

JBLnsince1959
09-10-2005, 12:41 PM
All right



I go to bed, I get up, the thread has gone completely OT, Two threads that were exciting to me, one on the Array Series and now this one on the Studio L Series, are now messsed up. I just wanted to talk about new JBL speakers. This is big news, good news.



Ditto...... :dont-know

Lancer
09-10-2005, 01:51 PM
Thanks Lancer,

At least someone is on the ball....and I admire your candid and transparent disclosure.

Its about playing the game straight you have to be playing the game straight.

If those in a position of responsibility can't abide by the rules they should step aside..period. Thankfully someone has come forward.All I have to say is you moderators have to communicate more. The moderator who closed the thread was right in doing so. The irritating point from my perspective is that the thread wasn't immediately put on ice right after Earl started it so JBL could validate what was on their website and give the thumbs up (errors have been made before *). Everyone knew discussing Project Array was off limits, it has been for over a year, and the moderator who closed the thread was acting on that knowledge. JBL did give the thumbs up and even sent along some documents to add to the site. The thread can be opened anytime any moderator wishes to open it. This is one of the very few times JBL has asked anything of us and frankly, abiding by their wishes wasn't a hardship.

* Reference several Service Center and Dealer members posting about being unable to get anything from JBL concerning Project Array. There was a reason for that.

Mr. Widget
09-10-2005, 02:16 PM
All I have to say is you moderators have to communicate more.

That's for sure. We sure can look pretty silly at times. In my life outside of these discussion forums I can look pretty silly too, so I guess I am comfortable wearing that hat.

Mr. Dome,

I am sorry to have continued the OT portion of this thread... maybe like Zilch and others with several quotes at the bottom of their posts, I should add a signature to my postings... something to the effect of "I'm liable to veer off topic without any notice..." and also a disclaimer that "any opinions expressed or implied are only those of the poster."

As for my apparent altercation with a fellow moderator... I am rather confused about that one myself.

Widget

PS. I for one find it interesting when people post threads about the various new series from JBL. I would probably never discover them otherwise.

Zilch
09-10-2005, 02:52 PM
"My mother cares!" would be good.... ;)

Don C
09-10-2005, 05:43 PM
You as a member have a right to a PUBLIC answer of that question raised.

A non answer is misleading and deceptive in conduct.

For moral and ethical reasons Don should come forward an offer an explanation.

Ian
None of of us have any entitlement to read, post, or demand answers from anyone else here. We are guests, and the site founder sets a fine example of courtesy and patience to put up with us.

GordonW
09-11-2005, 07:38 AM
None of of us have any entitlement to read, post, or demand answers from anyone else here. We are guests, and the site founder sets a fine example of courtesy and patience to put up with us.

Precisely correct, and well said.

Now, can we talk about speakers?

Thanks!

Regards,
Gordon.

Robh3606
09-11-2005, 08:12 AM
Holly Molly!!

What's going on around here???


'Now, can we talk about speakers?

Thanks!"

Yeah good idea! Let's try this again.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
09-11-2005, 12:31 PM
Yes, there's nothing worse than a speakers that insists on buzzing and rattling.

Perhaps we all need an Aquaplas coating, stop rattling and start listening

I've already ordered mine:D

But some things just won't stop rattling, isn't that right.

Ian

JBL8827
09-13-2005, 02:17 PM
...browsing the post and wanted to clear up some of the questions/comments.

But now I'm just annoyed. They have added a useless super tweeter that no human will be able to hear. Crossover frequency at 20 Khz? They couldn't find any better way to spend the money than to add this useless marketing gimmick? The tweeter and supertweeter crossover is right around 20khz for all models. It's low order and helps keep the system frequency and phase response linear up and through 20khz. On one hand the super tweeter was incorparated as a trickle-down from the top of the line array/K2 speakers - introducing some continuity throughout the JBL line from the flagships through the less expensive models. On the other hand it was something that was desired as much as or more by JBL Europe than in the US. The StudioL line is sold throughout the world, not just the US like the previous Studio series.

they figure that if Monster can make millions selling improvements that no one can actually hear, they should get in on the act too. It's another decision that puts marketing ahead of sound quality
I would disagree. Harman spends millions on R&D and argualby nothing on advertising. Whens the last time you saw an ad for a JBL consumer speaker? I would even go so far as to argue that sometimes we put sound quality too far ahead of aesthetics. Each and every JBL speaker goes through a battery of objective and subjective evaluation for sound quality before it can be approved for production. Every company could do this if they had millions in research facilities but fortunately for us they don't.

....No, totally different situation, the K2 needs the supertweeter, and crossover is at 10 Khz.
....and you think the beryllium 435Be compression driver couldn't have made it to 20,000 if they wanted to? Look at what they did with aluminum on other systems ( 4430 comes to mind)
no the 435Be and 435Ti don't make it to 20khz. They have 3" diaphrams. They were designed from the outset to have maximum low frequency output (down to 400Hz) and not for extended frequency response. The 045Be/045Ti UHF's both have frequency response from 4kHz and on the high end they're 6dB down above 40kHz. The 435/045-based systems are awesome. With the crossover points to the 435 at or below 800Hz in all models the systems really kicks some serious rear end. We're talking extremely smooth frequency response and dispersion throughout; and of course they'll play distortion free as loud as you can take it. The new JBL Synthesis One lineup is also based on the 435/045 horn loaded compression drivers. Just to note, the crossover point between the 435 and 045 is 9Khz.

I'd say there's a difference between 045Be and the monolythic mylar doodah they're using in L-Series.
yes, the 045 is a serious piece of R&D. The Studio L supertweeter has a custom designed phase plug and waveguide but it's not a compression driver. Nevertheless it's a nice UHF tweeter and performs well.

I'll know that their decision was based on sound engineering when I see the same supertweeter on the LSR series.
JBL Professional and Harman Consumer Group are two different companies. While we live next to each other in Northridge and share technology both companies have their own aganda. JBL Pro needs stuff to play loud, be light, and be array-based. The JBL Pro studio monitors are their own thing. Flat frequency response, high power handling with low distortion and low power compression. Not to mention the 6300 series is based on the old LSR28/32 models and uses the 053Ti which has been around for years. The 053Ti does have a nice frequency response that extends past 20khz but it costs $50 to manufacture and is not practicle in the price range of even a studio L series price point.

About the Studio L series in general I'm very happy with how it turned out. Once again JBL has not cut back on the number of models offered. There's a full line of floor standers, book shelfs, centers, on walls, and sub. Also, the enclosure design and build has continued to set some high benchmarks. Harman (with JBL and Infinity) were the first speaker company to start using some beautifully shaped mass produced wood/vinyl enclosures (starting with the Infinity Interlude series) and the Studio L is no exception. When you get close to the stuff they look just as good as they sound...

Zilch
09-13-2005, 03:44 PM
Jeez, good thing I spelled "doodah" correctly.... :D

edgewound
09-13-2005, 04:35 PM
Damage control is now on the scene....very tempting...hmm.

Titanium Dome
09-13-2005, 04:36 PM
Jeez, good thing I spelled "doodah" correctly.... :D


:rotfl: I think you meant "doodad." :rotfl:







sorry :o: Don't take the miracle wire back.

Zilch
09-13-2005, 04:51 PM
I KNOW you been secretly usin' that wire. ;)

mikebake
09-13-2005, 07:17 PM
we put sound quality too far ahead of aesthetics.......... While we live next to each other in Northridge and share technology both companies have their own aganda..

Nice authoritative post that I appreciate. Nice to see you here, and please do post similarly in the future as needed. Good info from a right-sounding source.

Titanium Dome
09-13-2005, 08:11 PM
[qoute=JBL8827]Each and every JBL speaker goes through a battery of objective and subjective evaluation for sound quality before it can be approved for production. Every company could do this if they had millions in research facilities but fortunately for us they don't.[/quote]

I'd sure love to know more about this process. I read bits and pieces about the Northridge campus and it's world-leading facilities. For example:

http://stereophile.com/news/10201/

http://www.reed-electronics.com/tmworld/article/CA475937.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_2/feature-interview-kevin-voecks-4-2004.html

But I'd love to know the basic process employed in developing these Studio L Series.

Mr. Widget
09-13-2005, 08:38 PM
Harman spends millions on R&D and argualby nothing on advertising. Whens the last time you saw an ad for a JBL consumer speaker? I would even go so far as to argue that sometimes we put sound quality too far ahead of aesthetics.

I wonder if it's working. I bet Harman has spent money studying the market to see what would happen if they spent real money on advertising and a bit more on aesthetics. I bet they ran the numbers and found their desired profit curve.

They do spend money on advertising for Synthesis and those funny little computer speakers... just not high fidelity. I am just thankful they are still doing the R&D and turning out new product.

Widget

JBL8827
09-13-2005, 09:36 PM
don't be bothered by me. I'm just a little guy here. I just happen to have some insight. I'm one of systems engineers just checking out the forum and posted during my lunch hour. I'm not primarily responsible for the Studio L series but let's just say I sit next to the guy who is and I'm extremely familiar with it :D I work primarily on JBL and I've been the primary engineer for the JBL Synthesis range for about 5 years now and I've been working for a good part of the last 12 months with the 435/045/175ND compression drivers as they are used in the new Synthesis line. I've also worked a bit with JBL Pro and did some work with the LSR28/LSR32's so this thread was interesting to me and I thought I would reply.

I wonder if it's working. I bet Harman has spent money studying the market to see what would happen if they spent real money on advertising and a bit more on aesthetics. I bet they ran the numbers and found their desired profit curve.
very good observation. This was something I questioned when I starting working for harman out of college 7 years ago. We are spending money more and more on advertising. The company is being run so smart and so efficiently now - it's really nice. JBL consumer has actually sort of come a long way. If you think about it JBL car audio always had fantastic products, but 5 years ago you couldn't find it anywhere. No advertising. Not many dealers. I myself could barely get a hold of a pair of 508GTi's! After a few years of aggressive campaigning and overhauling the dealer infrastructure they're all over the place now. ..advertising in the magazines, sponsoring the top car audio guys...and the product is actually great stuff. What a concept. ;)
There's some aggressive ad campaigns coming out in the next 6 months, print ad in magazine and public places etc...for JBL and harman kardon stuff.

I'd sure love to know more about this process. I read bits and pieces about the Northridge campus and it's world-leading facilities
yeah it's really something else. We actually have people in all the time for tours of the facilities and presentations and stuff. Dealers, print media, etc...and it's actually true, it's not b.s. sometimes to the chagrin of us systems engineering guys. Sometimes we are very proud of our prototype product and we have no reservations about making it and going into production but nevertheless we've got to go through tons of measurements, documentation, and subjective testing before we can proceed. Really cramps the timeline!

DRG
09-14-2005, 04:26 AM
Welcome to the forum JBL8827. What do you think of the rest of this site? Have you looked through the Library and the Profile pages?

Thank you for the posts.

JBLnsince1959
09-14-2005, 05:03 AM
Nice to have your input JBL8827( and DRG too). Glad to see your posts. It's refreshing to hear from the JBL staff.

Well, I've had to eat my words about the 435Be a couple of times on this thread, I got a little carried away as I was somewhat steamed ( shall we say - pissed-off) when I wrote that. But my basic position stays the same. I don't think JBL NEEDED the tweeter to go so high, I believed it was a choice ( marketing AND engineering), I could be wrong.

When the time is right, some "white papers" or other info on the studio L would be appreciated by many forum members I'm sure( like what was provided for the Array series). Of course we understand that info can only be released when the company is ready.

Anyway, welcome to the forum and thank you for you're input. It was really needed. By the way, one word of caution....This forum can be REALLY ADDICTING :D ;)

Don McRitchie
09-14-2005, 06:32 AM
...browsing the post and wanted to clear up some of the questions/comments.

As others are chiming in, your participation here is very welcome. Given the wide and diverse nature of our forum membership, it gets to be a bit of a free for all here at times. The information you provided gives insight into the complexity of the process and myriad of issues behind the development of a new loudspeaker system that I don't think everyone realizes. Therefore, I hope you stick around. Any opportunity for understanding benefits us mutually.

Titanium Dome
10-06-2005, 09:26 PM
From Harmanaudio.com come Studio L Series prices:

LC1 $499 each
LC2 $599 each
L810 $650 pair
L820 $750 pair
L830 $750 pair
L880 $700 each
L890 $799 each

Kilted
01-17-2006, 07:46 AM
Here is my limited report, I would like to hear from folks who have auditioned these speakers in a better environment:

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8810

Post #12

-- Brandy

Titanium Dome
02-12-2006, 01:39 AM
Here's how the Studio L Series starts 2006. It's mostly familiar verbiage, but a little deeper in a couple of places.


from Frank Doris, FM Group Public Relations

JBL Studio L Series: Bringing Professional Studio-Quality Sound to Home Listeners

JBL’s Studio L Series of home theater and stereo loudspeakers includes eight high-performance models that incorporate a host of design innovations and technologies directly derived from the company’s professional recording studio monitors to achieve exceptional sonic accuracy and musical realism. Along with superlative performance, JBL Studio L Series loudspeakers offer expanded installation options, and feature a distinctively contemporary design that complements every décor and home entertainment installation.

The Studio L Series includes two wall-mount/bookshelf monitors (models L810 and L820); a compact bookshelf loudspeaker (model L830); two floorstanding towers (models L880 and L890); two dedicated center channel loudspeakers (models LC1 and the wall-mountable LC2) and a 12-inch, 600-watt powered subwoofer (model L8400P). Suggested retail prices for the Studio L Series range from $650 to $1,598 per pair (SRP).

A key JBL innovation that is incorporated into every Studio L Series loudspeaker (except the L8400P subwoofer) is a newly developed ultrahigh-frequency horn transducer that provides extended frequency response to 40kHz. The UHF transducer is complemented by a pure-titanium-dome tweeter housed within an EOS waveguide, both configured in a “room friendly” design that delivers sound that’s closer to the real-life sound heard in the concert hall, and re-creates the acoustic environment captured on the original recording.

Studio L Series woofers and midrange drivers incorporate refinements such as JBL’s PolyPlas polymer-coated cellulose-fiber cones, which provide smooth frequency response with faster transients, and allow for higher playback levels without distortion. JBL Studio L Series loudspeakers also feature a host of additional enhancements, such as cabinets that are significantly improved from previous Studio Series models to minimize the possibility of sonic coloration from internal resonances, and JBL’s Straight-Line Signal Path (SSP) crossover network, which ensures maximum sonic purity.

JBL Studio L Series models offer wall-, stand- and floor-mounting installation options to accommodate any home theater or music system, and are available in a cherry, beech or black-ash finish, making it easy to complement any home décor.

Kilted
02-12-2006, 10:08 AM
I am very new to this forum, I came here for information on a product I was/am interested in purchasing. I have little opinion on the esoterics of speaker design, and many of the opinions in this thread were from folks who never listened to the speakers they were dishing. This was not very helpful in making a a purchasing decision, there were members who posted useful information, to them THANK YOU very much.

So to help another newbie who stumbles across this forum from a Google search I offer an excerpt from my thread on another forum:

….

“After spending a lot of time reading and auditioning some speaker's I'm keeping my JBL L100's for the time being.

I looked at several brands and came down to Definitive Tech, and JBL Studio L Series. I found it amazing how much it would cost to replace 30-year-old speakers.

My L100's have not been abused used almost every day for 30 years. They will require some touchup.

It was necessary to purchase a new A/V Receiver, to get what I needed/wanted required me to go up market, which put a big dent in the piggy bank. I got a Denon 4306.

As soon as I hooked this amp up I was immediately impressed with how much material comes out of the center channel and how little comes out of the surrounds.

I had auditioned the JBL LC1 and it was apparent that the LC1 was "under powered" for the job in my system. Any center channel of lesser quality I knew would not be worth trying.

I could not find a LC2 locally to listen to but I did find an almost complete JBL Studio Series L setup at a local Fry's so I had a good idea what a LC1 and L890's sounded like. Over all the mid-range and high range are excellent, I was disappointed in the bass, a really good sub is required. AKA L890 2x 8inch sub does NOT EQUAL one 12" sub in a L100.

So I ordered a LC2 from B&H Photo, it came in yesterday, I got it properly installed today and I'm very impressed at how natural it sounds.

For those doing a surround sound system DONOT SKIMP on those front speakers espc. the center channel.

I'll try the Definitive Tech LCR but I think the LC2 will do the trick.

Current 5.1 setup: A/V Rec-Amp Denon 4306, Front-L/R JBL L100A, Center JBL LC2, Sub JBL PB10, Surrounds JBL LX22's. Well it's not perfect but sounds much better than my prior configuration. “



-- Brandy

Titanium Dome
02-12-2006, 11:41 AM
Hi Brandy. It's often estimated that a new run of L100s would cost $2-2.5k per pair if manufactured today. That's just taking into account inflation, and probably doesn't reflect the fact that the cost of making those cabinets increased more than the rate of inflation.

I have two pairs of the original L100 Century speakers (all the drivers are in a line from top to bottom) and wouldn't give them up, even though there are some folks who like to run them down. :scold: The L100s are not the best speakers I own by a long shot, but they're among my favorites.

Even though the Studio L Series seems expensive compared to our L100s, remember we were paying $273 each back in 1971. I just checked my SS statements, and I made about $2400 that year as a college student living on his own with no parental help. (That's a long story... :blah: ) So, I spent nearly 23% of my gross income on those speakers.

Man, if I did that today, I could have some top JBLs and money left over.

I think the Studio L Series is a solid value, better than the L100 in its day, but they're two quite different designs and have very different sounds.

Now that you have the LC2, you'll always have the option to buy some other Studio L gear a couple of pieces at a time if you want, and eventually build a matched system all the way around. As it is, you've got an all JBL system, which everyone here likes to see. :yes: And whatever you do, keep those L100s. They're a big piece of JBL history, and, like mine are to me, a big part of your musical life.

Kilted
02-15-2006, 11:17 PM
Ti,

Thank you for the reply. The plan was to get a center speaker from a series that I could move into later.

I did get a chance to listen to L890's which I comment on previously. After hearing how much material comes from the center speaker I knew I need a good one.

The next thing I notice was how much bad audio comes from TV, actually I should not have been surprised.

When I have good software the LC2 & L100A's sound really good together.

As for replacing the L100'1 no current plans, I need to get the tweeter foams repaired.

Thanks again.

-- Brandy

robpatton
03-18-2006, 08:03 PM
I found the Studio L series to be a very strong contender when faced with other stiff competition. Both the Project Array and the Studio L series speakers have the sound of the K2 at fractions of the prices. I highly recommend both speakers to anyone intersted in them. I look forward to getting more involved on this site and I have lots to offer, I feel! Thanks!:bouncy:

Titanium Dome
03-18-2006, 08:11 PM
I found the Studio L series to be a very strong contender when faced with other stiff competition. Both the Project Array and the Studio L series speakers have the sound of the K2 at fractions of the prices. I highly recommend both speakers to anyone intersted in them. I look forward to getting more involved on this site and I have lots to offer, I feel! Thanks!:bouncy:

Welcome Rob. :yes:

Those are some interesting pictures. Can you tell us a little more about the where and what of each? I mean, after all, that's about $54k worth of K2s there.

Thanks!

robpatton
03-18-2006, 08:26 PM
Thanks for the welcome!!

The where seems to be everywhere...according to my wife. It take a graceful dance to navigate my home without tripping over a cable, speaker or amplifier. My son has learned to swing from the cables like a small monkey.:D

I have many K2 9800 SEs and regulars for some time. The prices are up to 30K for a pair now for the SEs, BTW. I have just received the Array 14s and the Studio Ls last week. I am running them with Cello Performance II amplifiers(400WPC @ 4 Ohm), an Esoteric UX-3 CD/DVD, an Anthem AVM 30 for the Pre and Silver Litz interconnects and Litz speaker cables. The K2s are one of the best speakers I have found anywhere at any price range and would recommend them first if the budget allows. On a lower budget the Array 14s are the next in line and then the Array 800 with subwoofer assistance needed. On limited budgets, the Studio L series brings the pack home nicely.

Regards,

Rob

Titanium Dome
05-07-2006, 11:05 PM
I listened to the L880s at Fry's Electronics today. Due to the almost complete lack of qualified and interested sales associates, I got to spend as much time as I wanted fiddling with them.

Let me start by stating that the room was barely acceptable, and the speakers were much too far apart. However, I went ahead and moved them to a few positions of my liking to get a better appreciation of them.

Since they're dual 6" woofers speakers, I also moved the EOL/NLA Northridge E80s over for a bit of comparison. The E80s were available at closeout for $79 each, while the L880s were at full retail of $699 each.

The E80s held up quite well, but were clearly not in the same league, especially on the high end. However, even the E80's dual 6" woofers were clearly not as capable as those in the L880.

I listened to some music from the 50s, 70s, 90s, and today to get a feel for the voicing and timbre. The L880 was very strong in the midrange, upper midrange, and highs. At any volume level, its tweeter was very good, and the midrange driver seemed to be effortless in its delivery. The sound was just there.

Running through an HK receiver, the sound was well balanced, clean, and articulate. However, on some of the older material (do wop in particular), the weak quality of the recordings tended to make the midrange voices a bit sharp and the highs were what I'd call shrill. I didn't notice this on any of the other music, though I certainly listened for it after that. I'd say this is a case of the speaker not hiding anything.

I was able to drive these speakers to very loud levels with no problems. I heard no break up, though occasionally I heard attacks and decays that could have been cleaner. Sometimes it seemed like there were very minor time/phase issues, which cleared up with proximity to the speakers.

The weak link was the lower bass, but with 6" woofers, this was no surprise. I avoided adding a sub to the mix, so I could see if my hearing adjusted to the sound. After awhile, I could hear that the bass was there, just not in abundance. The woofers were agile and accurate, but not low by any means.

I mentioned above that I also used the E80 as a touchstone for performance. The most curious thing was what happened in the high frequencies. The L880 has the mini-horn UHF tweeter, which I'm certain I couldn't hear if my life depended on it. However, the high frequencies I could hear sounded so much more accurate, that I wonder if the UHF driver was having an effect on the tweeter's response.

There was a distinctly better high frequency sound from the L880. Better tweeter? Probably. UHF influence? Don't know.

The L880 is a very nice speaker, but it's not full-range by my definition. Still it's only $700 in today's dollars. So to compare it to a full-range L7 or XPL200 wouldn't be fair. It suffers in comparison to them, but is a great speaker to occupy the middle ground in the consumer space. Add a sub, and you have a full-range system. :yes:

Titanium Dome
05-07-2006, 11:18 PM
Many have commented that the speaker looks tacky or cheap. Fortunately, it looks much better in person.

The finish is the all-too-familiar vinyl black ash. The edges of the relatively slim enclosure are rounded in a pleasing way. The grilles stand out from the baffle by a small space, and they have a nice, firm feel to them. They remove easily.

The drivers do look a bit gaudy, but not overbearingly so. The photos we normally see tend to exaggerate the look.

Probably the only thing I didn't like were the "feet." If I bought a pair of these, I'd paint the feet black (or take them off).

avliner
05-08-2006, 12:01 PM
Hi all,

I'd like to tell, intially, that it was a pleasure to discover this forum.
Matter of fact, it was something I was looking for - long ago - and I consider it as the real place to be, to the all of us, good'n ol' JBL fans!

Well, my current setting comprises the following speakers (7.1 system):

Mains = Northrigde ND 310
Center = S Center
Surrounds = S 38II
S Back = N 28II
Woofer = PB -12,

all being powered by a Denon 3805 AVR.

Quite recently, I've upgraded my system and now I'm using another woofer instead ( SVS PB 10 - ISD). I'm also considering the possibility of upgrading the mains & center channel and the new Studio L range seems to be a considerable upgrade of what I have now.

There's something I'd like to discuss about the new L series; i.e., I have read that they're basically all 4 Ohm load (altough specs states 8 Ohm loads), so that could somewhat overload the AVR, if pushed hardly, right?

In other hand, I know of several people using 4 Ohm speakers with the 3805 and have not had any problems, so far. Perhaps that sounds just like " to be in the safe side" and go for an external amp, right?

I have to say that I'm pretty satisfied with my current speakers, but I feel like the L Series are the end of the line on my wish list.
My room is not that big either, so I was thinking of only changing the mains & center, that's all.

By the way, what's the real need of a FULL RANGE FLOORSTANDERS nowadays, when the woofer takes care about the heavy burden??
I truly believe that this theory does make sense, mainly after the "sub woofer advent" on multi channel HT systems.

More & more you see people going with bookshelves for the mains, with pretty amazing results... (have to admit that I'm the ol' fashioned guy who still prefers big floorstanders though... isn't time for a change now??).

I'm re-configuring my HT room (as I've got a new HDTV set as well), so I'll be posting some pictures pretty soon for you guys, in order to evaluate my needs and chime back with your toughts.

In the meantime, I'd appreciate to have some feed-back on my comments.

Cheers / Avliner.

Zilch
05-08-2006, 01:26 PM
By the way, what's the real need of a FULL RANGE FLOORSTANDERS nowadays, when the woofer takes care about the heavy burden??
I truly believe that this theory does make sense, mainly after the "sub woofer advent" on multi channel HT systems.

More & more you see people going with bookshelves for the mains, with pretty amazing results... (have to admit that I'm the ol' fashioned guy who still prefers big floorstanders though... isn't time for a change now??).Notwithstanding the increasingly pervasive mischaracterization of just about any woofer as "subwoofer," few floorstanders incorporate a sub in the true sense of crossing and operating exclusively below 100 Hz.

Can most bookshelves get down to 80-100 Hz ? Yup.

Do they integrate well with a separate sub? Only if designed as a system, I'd say, and that includes whatever is doing the bass management.

Current practice is to stack the bookshelf on top of a subwoofer, in effect, creating a "modular" floorstander. DUH!!

MJC
05-13-2006, 06:44 AM
Current practice is to stack the bookshelf on top of a subwoofer, in effect, creating a "modular" floorstander. DUH!!

Or have the subs next to the mains. With my setup each main have their own 12" sub, sitting next to the mains, to the inside, with the center channel speaker in between the two subs. These subs are connected to the mains with speaker wire, which in effect make the mains full range. Of coarse, that is how the L212s were designed to work.

Plus I have two sub1500s that sit at the mid-points of the side walls connected to the "subout" on the H/K receiver. The mains are set to "large" in the receiver menu and the rest of the L212s are set to "small".

Of the various setups I've tried over the last two years, this is the best yet. And it works very well for both music and movies. When listening to music, I can use all four subs, or just the two 12" subs, when I'm listening to music in stereo. Of coarse I have all four on when listening to multi-channel music.

Titanium Dome
07-05-2006, 11:00 AM
Here is a major endorsement of the JBL Studio L Series from a wildly popular Internet site. Many Web-savvy electronics purchasers go here before anywhere else.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_2/jbl-studio-l-speakers-6-2006-part-1.html

Read and rejoice.

edgewound
07-05-2006, 11:12 AM
Here is a major endorsement of the JBL Studio L Series from a wildly popular Internet site. Many Web-savvy electronics purchasers go here before anywhere else.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_2/jbl-studio-l-speakers-6-2006-part-1.html

Read and rejoice.

They probably sound fine, but....it looks like they spent all of five minutes on the design.

That is an uggglllleeee speaker system.

Titanium Dome
07-05-2006, 11:56 AM
They probably sound fine, but....it looks like they spent all of five minutes on the design.

That is an uggglllleeee speaker system.

Have you had a chance to see them in person? Average people under the age of 40 probably think they look fine, even cool. Other customers at Frys thought so.


Many have commented that the speaker looks tacky or cheap. Fortunately, it looks much better in person.

The finish is the all-too-familiar vinyl black ash. The edges of the relatively slim enclosure are rounded in a pleasing way. The grilles stand out from the baffle by a small space, and they have a nice, firm feel to them. They remove easily.

The drivers do look a bit gaudy, but not overbearingly so. The photos we normally see tend to exaggerate the look.

Probably the only thing I didn't like were the "feet." If I bought a pair of these, I'd paint the feet black (or take them off).

edgewound
07-05-2006, 12:42 PM
Have you had a chance to see them in person? Average people under the age of 40 probably think they look fine, even cool. Other customers at Frys thought so.

I haven't seen them in person. I think the average person under 40...well....35 maybe ...hasn't had the good fortune of being able to experience good design in the stores.

To me...those Studio L's would benefit from way less contrast in the colors. There's just too many drivers that are silver in a black box...the grilles should be left on. Can you imagine the above pictured K2's with a silver horn and woofer?...Ewwww.

Even a darker gray or titanium color would do the Studio L's wonder...make it look quite a bit richer...and not so "Wal-Mart"

Mr. Widget
07-05-2006, 01:45 PM
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.... but I agree with Mr. Edge on this one. Most of the affordable JBLs sold over the last several years look pretty darn cheesy to me.

I've discussed this with others here on the forum and the response was speakers are for sound... that may be true but they are also part of your life... I don't want to surround myself with things I'd rather hide in the closet.


Widget

Titanium Dome
07-05-2006, 04:38 PM
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.... but I agree with Mr. Edge on this one. Most of the affordable JBLs sold over the last several years look pretty darn cheesy to me.

I've discussed this with others here on the forum and the response was speakers are for sound... that may be true but they are also part of your life... I don't want to surround myself with things I'd rather hide in the closet.


Widget

It's unlikely JBL is deliberately making speakers that would be considered ugly by its target market. I'll bet Harman has a van full of analysis that says what will work in certain consumer segments. This awareness keeps the numbers up, and that's what pays the bills. Just remember, this is the same segment that buys Bose, Athena, Rockets, Ascends, Paradigms, etc.

I can remember when I got my first JBLs, L100s, there was some debate over the appearance. Goshawful colors, three-dimesional grilles for heaven's sake, bizarre geometric patterning--"Do you play chess on that thing or what? Is that a Brill-o pad? Why I like old-fashioned grilles, not this gaudy, new fangled stuff."

But back on track, my post was about the sound and the great review. Can we at least be happy about that?

edgewound
07-05-2006, 04:52 PM
But back on track, my post was about the sound and the great review. Can we at least be happy about that?

Happy as a hog in hogwash.

How many ad pages did Harman buy in that issue? Is it recurring revenue for the periodical?

I'd just like to see the entry and mid-level stuff with the JBL badge use JBL components that have the build quality that the JBL name is supposed to be known for....and not just be a "Cadillac Cimarron" that's priced way higher than it deserves to be simply because of the brand name..."is all"...that was a "Zilchism":p

Mr. Widget
07-05-2006, 04:52 PM
It's unlikely JBL is deliberately making speakers that would be considered ugly by its target market....
But back on track, my post was about the sound and the great review. Can we at least be happy about that?I don't know... do they sell well? I was under the impression that it was mostly car audio that kept the JBL boat a float. I guess I just wish they offered elegant options too... in Europe they do. Perhaps they respect that market more than our own.:(

As for the sound... my point was, for at least some of us that isn't an isolated quality. If they were the best speakers in the world, I'd be buying them and repackaging them. Fortunately there are other options. Of course as I said before, beauty even more than sound quality is subjective. If someone likes their looks that's great... I doubt I'd consider any "box" type of loudspeaker that doesn't at least have real wood veneer... not even those very expensive Wilsons... car paint?! Get real, I don't want a plastic coated box in my living room. Just a personal thing I guess.


Widget

Mr. Widget
07-05-2006, 04:57 PM
How many ad pages did Harman buy in that issue? Is it recurring revenue for the periodical?It is sad but often true. I have no idea in this case... it is quite likely that the reveiwer really loved the speakers.

Sorry but I'll drift OT for a second... has anyone noticed the retro gear that Stereophile has been testing and reviewing... I think it's way cool... and you know Advent, Bozak, Fisher, and the rest aren't buying any ads since the companies that created those products are as dead as Altec Lansing.

Now back to the previously scheduled thread.


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JBLnsince1959
07-05-2006, 05:01 PM
That is an uggglllleeee speaker system.

that's what the grills are for...;)

Titanium Dome
07-05-2006, 08:15 PM
Happy as a hog in hogwash.

How many ad pages did Harman buy in that issue? Is it recurring revenue for the periodical?


It's Web only, so Harman didn't have any ad pages, per se.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/about.html

There are ads from Paradigm, SVS, and HSU speakers.

There is an ad for Lexicon. Hey, maybe Harman leveraged that to get a favorable review on a consumer speaker, instead of say, a high margin Lexicon processor.

Mr. Widget
07-05-2006, 09:30 PM
But back on track, my post was about the sound and the great review. Can we at least be happy about that?"The bottom line is that I bought them for myself and would not hesitate to recommend them to anyone as an excellent investment in home theater and music listening enjoyment."- Adrian Wittenberg -

The reviewer bought the review system. I guess he really did like them!


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piturra
07-07-2006, 11:28 AM
Great thread Titanium Dome!!! Mostly good/great INFO especially from JBL8827 (2-posts).

FYI: Here's another review from Sound & Vision Magazine - check out the Objective Benchmarks by Tom Nousaine ...

JBL L820 and L810 left/right satellites and LC2 center speaker (http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=1214&page_number=1)by Al Griffin - FEB. '06.

Notable quote from on-line article:
BOTTOM LINE The "studio" tag on the Studio L speakers is well earned. This system's robust build quality surpasses that of many speakers in its price range and makes a strong connection to JBL's professional line. The same can also be said for its clean, uncolored sound and impressive dynamics. While the satellites’ extended highs didn't exactly make me stand up and say "Aha!," the system's performance with top-notch SACD recordings was nothing short of stunning. You can easily buy a better-looking system for several hundred dollars less, and it will make a more elegant design statement alongside your new flat-panel TV. But if performance is more important to you than the fussy stuff, you’ll be well served by JBL's Studio Ls.

If I ever upgrade my setup, ... I'd replace my six JBL S26s w/six JBL L830s and JBL S-Center w/JBL LC2!!! (LFE sub-woofer duties = SVS 25-31PCi of course!!! :D ) I just love the 360-degree near 100% timbre-matching surround sounds in my 20' x 30' w/10'high vaulted ceiling HT/family room!!!

Phil

edgewound
07-07-2006, 11:46 AM
I think the positive reviews are great....really. But when a reviewer says in no uncertain terms that they're ugly....why not capitalize on understating the appearance...iow...make them prettier and sell even more.



You can easily buy a better-looking system for several hundred dollars less, and it will make a more elegant design statement alongside your new flat-panel TV. But if performance is more important to you than the fussy stuff, you’ll be well served by JBL's Studio Ls.


A consumer oriented manufacturer should well be aware that the appearance can make or break a products success....that silver just looks cheap. I'm sure those MBA marketers at Harman have it all figured out. Must have some analytical EOQ mu squared delta gamma bell curve standard deviation vector to predict sales volume.

Keep a lookout for them at the Harman Outlet.;) :p

JBLnsince1959
07-07-2006, 12:05 PM
A consumer oriented manufacturer should well be aware that the appearance can make or break a products success....that silver just looks cheap. I'm sure those MBA marketers at Harman have it all figured out. Must have some analytical EOQ mu squared delta gamma bell curve standard deviation vector to predict sales volume.

Keep a lookout for them at the Harman Outlet.;) :p

Cheap...like sex.. sells..... ( and cheap sex sells best of all:p )

Look at all those electronics from the 70's and 80's that had 1000's of flashing lights and knobs that did nothing to improve the sound.... they sold like hot cakes...

I agree with you Edge..I'm sure they did focus groups and what not to know what sells....

then again maybe we could drap flags over them and play them for "OLD GLORY" after drinking about 6 beers( things look better after drinking - at least until the next morning)...

seriously tho, I don't think they're THAT BAD

edgewound
07-07-2006, 12:22 PM
Cheap...like sex.. sells..... ( and cheap sex sells best of all:p )

Look at all those electronics from the 70's and 80's that had 1000's of flashing lights and knobs that did nothing to improve the sound.... they sold like hot cakes...

I agree with you Edge..I'm sure they did focus groups and what not to know what sells....

then again maybe we could drap flags over them and play them for "OLD GLORY" after drinking about 6 beers( things look better after drinking - at least until the next morning)...

seriously tho, I don't think they're THAT BAD

I think I know what your saying, Rick.

But I can hear the conversation in Best Buy or Fry's now:

"Baby!!! Listen to those JBL's....Gawd those sound TIGHT!"

"Um, yeah well... Honey...those ones over there are so much prettier...RIGHT!!!???

"Yeah, Baby...I guess so...:( "

Titanium Dome
07-07-2006, 12:34 PM
I think I know what your saying, Rick.

But I can hear the conversation in Best Buy or Fry's now:

"Baby!!! Listen to those JBL's....Gawd those sound TIGHT!"

"Um, yeah well... Honey...those ones over there are so much prettier...RIGHT!!!???

"Yeah, Baby...I guess so...:( "

There's an old saying about putting a bag over something or another. In this case, just put the grilles on and enjoy the sex--er, sound.

JBLnsince1959
07-07-2006, 01:25 PM
I think I know what your saying, Rick.



Quick...let me know:D ...half the time I'm not sure what I mean;) But I think everyone got the joke about the flag...



There's an old saying about putting a bag over something or another. In this case, just put the grilles on and enjoy the sex--er, sound.

I agree, you know it took me 6 months to get to like the look of the PS series, so I'm use to the Industrial Silver Look ( I.S.L.) now....besides how much can a can of spray paint cost if it really bothers you???

ooooooor just put the grills on and fugitaboutit..

after all it's the sound that matters....lastly..how many of JBL's other speakers look strange but sound wonderful???this is just another in a long line..excuse the pun but the 4430's are BUTT UGLY...

edgewound
07-07-2006, 01:28 PM
There's an old saying about putting a bag over something or another. In this case, just put the grilles on and enjoy the sex--er, sound.

JBL would...should surely be proud of the loyalty displayed here for the marque...bravo:applaud:

I hope it flows to the showrooms.

edgewound
07-07-2006, 01:33 PM
excuse the pun but the 4430's are BUTT UGLY...

Oh they are not...:rotfl:

Zilch
07-07-2006, 02:54 PM
Don't MAKE post the Biradial Babes here, too, now.... ;)

MJC
07-07-2006, 04:49 PM
Oh they are not...:rotfl:
I don't think that either the 4430 or the Studio L are ugly. I haven't seen the Studio L in a store, but they look good enough on the computer screen.

JBLnsince1959
07-07-2006, 05:15 PM
Oh they are not...:rotfl:

yes, you're correct of course...the 4430's are THE wife pleaser's......

On a scale of 1 to 10, the Wife Approval Factor MUST be a 12.....I've yet to see a woman that didn't fall in love at first sight of those big old 4430's:D

It's a case where SIZE truely does matter:applaud:

edgewound
07-07-2006, 05:22 PM
yes, you're correct of course...the 4430's are THE wife pleaser's......

On a scale of 1 to 10, the Wife Approval Factor MUST be a 12.....I've yet to see a woman that didn't fall in love at first sight of those big old 4430's:D

It's a case where SIZE truely does matter:applaud:

Now your catchin' on...I knew you'd get it soon....:D

Anthony L100
07-08-2006, 06:12 PM
yes, you're correct of course...the 4430's are THE wife pleaser's......



Yeah, mine too, she said the look "powerful":D BTW, great thread 'dome, no bitchin:)

JBLnsince1959
07-09-2006, 08:35 PM
Ok, time to get serious....

Saturday night as me and lady were on our way to a movie I checked a place where they have JBL's ( I left her outside while I ran in just to see)...well they had the 890 and the Venue series ( and still have the large nothridge series to).

Today I took a little time to go hear them. Now understand I was planning NOT to like these ( and not for the looks, I'm Ok with the looks)...but really, dual 8's for bass...can we get serious???? I remember 6 years when I played the S312 VS dual 8's or 10's at Best Buy and the dual small woofers just didn't cut it in realistic sound ( and I don't mean Radio Shack), the 12's were Sooooo much better IMHO...

Just to let you know my bias, I don't like the "NEW LOOK" of speakers ( thin, cubes etc:barf: ), I don't like small..I'm old school.. a person who likes large voice coils....I don't want no pansy-ass, left-over from a 60's Japanese transistor radio SMALL SPEAKER wanta-be in my house...and I don't care WHAT the woman says or likes, they ain't coming in my house..period:biting:

Since much has been said about the looks of these puppies and since several people want to judge a book by it's cover, I'll start with looks. The 890's they have are the cherry finish and had the grills on....They look great!!! in fact they make a rather refined, strong statement. dims are 42 1/4" H, 10 1/4" W and 15" D the speakers are deeper than they are wide, sides are curved and placement of the grill is perfectly centered....these are heavy looking , quality looking, refined looking speakers...nice, very nice... Looks nothing like the pictures on the web. You got to see them in person. When I took off the grills, yes all those transducers and wave guides looked a little strange at first, but seriously most times you would have the grills on AND if you didn't so as to get the last drop of resolution from the highs, I think it's something you would get use to....I got use to the PS 800's.....stop and think..what was your first reaction to the 4430?? the Everest..the K2..these are speakers that don't "Fit the Mold" and one thing I have enjoyed about JBL over years is that they are willing to use the "Form Follows Function" to get the best sound.

Botton-line..they are very good looking speakers in person and if you don't like looking at the ultra-high tweeter or silver and that really upsets you then put on the grills or go see a shrink...

Ok, lets get to the heart of matter...THE SOUND!!!! Botton-line..these speakers will knock your socks off...really they are that good....resolution, detail, mid-bass, mids, highs, air, all in balance and yes, ( I hate to amitted it) BASS...no F'ing sh*t . These are the sleepers of 2006. Now everything must be put into perspective, these are (retail) around 1600 ( they were on sale for 627 each I think). That's not cheap but it's not JM Labs Be stuff either...for the price the sound is unbelieveable.

This a major step up from the older Studio series..very major. In fact there's no comparison. In several threads I've praised the old Studio speakers as the best bang for the buck speakers I had heard....well, the studio L leaves those old studio speakers in dust and for not much more money.

I'm going back and I'll do some more listening, but just to finish saying...I really liked these and was thinking of where can I put these...I want these BIG TIME..
( but I have no room and I'm waiting to see what's coming out this fall)

If you are thinking of getting new speakers, and you don't want to spend a fortune to get a really RICH and wonderful sound that would cost $7000 from other speakers, then do yourself a favor and listen to these. I think you'll be surprised at how great $1600 can sound..

GT and his crew have done a wonderful job:applaud: ....can't wait to see what they have for us this fall

JBLnsince1959
07-10-2006, 05:58 AM
I had to stop last night with the review of the 890. I'll go into it more after I hear them with more material.

these speakers were a total shock to me....they look good, sound good and have enough bass..

The most surprising thing was the bass, it was much better than I expected...( understand that I was listening to music, not movies with super low noises - and yes, all subs were off)...no, it's not a 12, 14 or 15" transducer, they are dual 8's and I want a Studio L with something bigger if it were my main speaker ( see my bias, maybe a S312 and S412 version - yes BOTH). These were designed to be used with subs I think

I see two uses for me with the 890's.....Center speakers for my HT ( I don't do single speaker) or actively crossed over to PS1400's or to some home grown Le-14 or 15's

Bottom-line:
1. they don't look cheap or cheesy in person, maybe on paper or on the web. These are very nice looking speakers in person - but then some people I've seen look cheesy on the web too

2. The sound is way better than a $1600 pair of speakers should sound, these are really approaching what I consider "Audiophile" sounding speakers

3. the bass is way better than one would believe(Frequency Response (±3dB) 28Hz – 40kHz ). I took in my "ball-busting Bass" CD's to break them and they took it and gave it back MUCH more than I thought possible. I'm not a "bass" person ( I believe what most people hear as "bass" is the box itself) BUT when REAL Bass is called for I want it there and the 890's did it...period. Next i'll take an organ CD and see if we can break them ( I've "broken" a few in stores;) )

Of course all of this is subjective...and you'll have to make up your own mind...just know that if you are judging these by the pictures on the web then you're only judging a book by a picture of it's cover. ( you're twice removed)

Titanium Dome
07-10-2006, 08:30 AM
Thanks for taking the time to both look and listen in person before passing judgment. It makes a difference, eh?

While all of us have opinions on these things, it's always useful to have an informed opinion with some credible experience to back it up. I know it can be hard to accept that something new and different is "as good as/better than/an improvement on/different in a good way to" older ideals, but it does happen.

I learned this lesson when I got my first pair of SVA1800s, an MTM design with two 8" drivers surrounding a Bi-Radial horn. It was mind blowing and paradigm busting at the same time. How could two 8" drivers be so powerful, so articulate, and so effective?

Old dogs like us can learn new tricks. ;)

Thomax
07-10-2006, 09:13 AM
...no, it's not a 12, 14 or 15" transducer, they are dual 8's and I want a Studio L with something bigger if it were my main speaker ( see my bias, maybe a S312 and S412 version - yes BOTH)

In fact you'd like a pair of TL260 ! :D

edgewound
07-10-2006, 09:40 AM
these speakers were a total shock to me....they look good, sound good and have enough bass..

The most surprising thing was the bass, it was much better than I expected...( understand that I was listening to music, not movies with super low noises - and yes, all subs were off)...no, it's not a 12, 14 or 15" transducer, they are dual 8's and I want a Studio L with something bigger if it were my main speaker ( see my bias, maybe a S312 and S412 version - yes BOTH). These were designed to be used with subs I think

Bottom-line:
1. they don't look cheap or cheesy in person, maybe on paper or on the web. These are very nice looking speakers in person - but then some people I've seen look cheesy on the web too

2. The sound is way better than a $1600 pair of speakers should sound, these are really approaching what I consider "Audiophile" sounding speakers

3. the bass is way better than one would believe(Frequency Response (±3dB) 28Hz – 40kHz ). I took in my "ball-busting Bass" CD's to break them and they took it and gave it back MUCH more than I thought possible. I'm not a "bass" person ( I believe what most people hear as "bass" is the box itself) BUT when REAL Bass is called for I want it there and the 890's did it...period. Next i'll take an organ CD and see if we can break them ( I've "broken" a few in stores;) )

Of course all of this is subjective...and you'll have to make up your own mind...just know that if you are judging these by the pictures on the web then you're only judging a book by a picture of it's cover. ( you're twice removed)

I think it's great that you love them. I do think they look better in the the beech color, too. Lots of Euro made speakers have the beech/silver look...it'd be really nice if the silver material was actually aluminum, magnesium, or some real metal. Harman's got lots of resources globally for VERY inexpensive(China) metal parts.

It's also not surprising that two eight inch woofers make ample bass...two 8"s cone area closely approaches a single 12", and the rest can be made up with added excursion...the transcient attack should be better than a single big driver due to the lighter moving mass you'd expect from multiple smaller drivers....you see this way more in the "high-end, audiophile" world.

I'm glad JBL has at least one more customer for the new line. They must be doing something right.

JBLnsince1959
07-10-2006, 10:00 AM
In fact you'd like a pair of TL260 ! :D

Most likely, there's a thread about the 260 with a PR article from JBL about it, but it really didn't say much..where it is ( most likely Europe), what transducers, crossovers etc....just general Smoke Out the Ass PR stuff ( SOA) that let's you know it exist but nothing in particular as to what's in it or why someone would want to buy it

I made a knee-jerk reaction statement that if the 260 used the same speakers as the Studio L ( they look the same) that that would be a disappointment...I may have to apologize to the GT and JBL crew as the studio L speakers are very good...still....( altho I don't think GT designed the 260 if I understand correctly)

There's still a part of me that wishes that they had done a little more research into "better" speakers ( Be tweeters, ultra high tweeters and mids; large dual voice coil speaker for the 8" mid-bass, le-14) for a flagship speaker for the masses as the 250 ( now 260) but that's me. then again maybe they did..who knows as the PR said nothing about what's in it..

I'll wait to pass judgement until I hear them..IF they can be found here in the States...

JBLnsince1959
07-10-2006, 10:30 AM
I think it's great that you love them. I do think they look better in the the beech color, too. Lots of Euro made speakers have the beech/silver look...it'd be really nice if the silver material was actually aluminum, magnesium, or some real metal. Harman's got lots of resources globally for VERY inexpensive(China) metal parts.

.

I think they are doing something right..very right...Let's not forget that these are speakers for the masses and that's what I'm comparing them to..Again for the price these are some of the most bang for the buck speakers i've seen in a long time..

are they the best speakers I've heard?..no...

at the moment I'm testing out JM Labs Electra 1027 Be ( very, very nice by the way, again not the best but nice)...only BIG problem is the SMALL dual 6" woofers ( IMHO - Damn I hate this new "modern" HT small shit design, can anyone tell me why speakers designed for Home theater are the smallest speakers around, you would think that they would be the largest..OH WAIT of course..who cares how they sound as long as they look good by not sticking out into the room)

I agree that all that stuff can look a strange and maybe a little color would help blend them in...but we ARE talking about speakers for the masses and something has to give...so put on grills:D and enjoy....

well that's my 2 cents..

Can't wait to see what they come out with this fall

JBLnsince1959
07-10-2006, 11:50 AM
It's also not surprising that two eight inch woofers make ample bass...two 8"s cone area closely approaches a single 12", and the rest can be made up with added excursion...the transcient attack should be better than a single big driver due to the lighter moving mass you'd expect from multiple smaller drivers....you see this way more in the "high-end, audiophile" world.

.

Exactly .....what most people ( 99.9%) don't know is that the lower notes on a piano and organ ( and below) are perceived largely through their partials ( harmonics) and tranisents can be a very big part of that small picture.

While I've always known that about dual woofers I've never liked it or thought that it was as good as one large one..at least until now....

I'm not sure what they've done with the cones.. I wasn't a real BIG fan of the Poly-plas cones but it is very good for the price and seemed to work well enough( I'm sure it's a bang for the buck process)

whatever they've done it works and works light years over the old studio speakers...still a S412 Frankinclone :hmm: maybe I can put one together with the new 2206's I got sitting around and other goodies..( or get some 2262's)

or get a pair of the 890's, put them beside my 1400's and run the wires from the 1400's to the 890 instead of the 800's.......;) ( Q&D 260?)

Hey I wonder if they are going to redo the PS series with the ultra-high thingymabob

Thomax
07-10-2006, 02:27 PM
Most likely, there's a thread about the 260 with a PR article from JBL about it, but it really didn't say much..where it is ( most likely Europe), what transducers, crossovers etc....just general Smoke Out the Ass PR stuff ( SOA) that let's you know it exist but nothing in particular as to what's in it or why someone would want to buy it

I made a knee-jerk reaction statement that if the 260 used the same speakers as the Studio L ( they look the same) that that would be a disappointment...I may have to apologize to the GT and JBL crew as the studio L speakers are very good...still....( altho I don't think GT designed the 260 if I understand correctly)

There's still a part of me that wishes that they had done a little more research into "better" speakers ( Be tweeters, ultra high tweeters and mids; large dual voice coil speaker for the 8" mid-bass, le-14) for a flagship speaker for the masses as the 250 ( now 260) but that's me. then again maybe they did..who knows as the PR said nothing about what's in it..

I'll wait to pass judgement until I hear them..IF they can be found here in the States...

You can find these easily here in France, either in shops or ebay. It looks like it's the same drivers as the Studio L's, but nobody really knows. People who had the opportunity to listen to them where quite impressed, like you with the Studio L's. The price is about 2000€ (~2000$) each, so it isn't much more given the larger woofer and cabinet....

JBLnsince1959
07-11-2006, 09:45 AM
You can find these easily here in France, either in shops or ebay. It looks like it's the same drivers as the Studio L's, but nobody really knows. People who had the opportunity to listen to them where quite impressed, like you with the Studio L's. The price is about 2000€ (~2000$) each, so it isn't much more given the larger woofer and cabinet....

Thanks for the info about the 260's being in France. I did a search for these and all I can find in English is a White paper
www.mediaaudio.hr/site/upload_news/tl260whtpaper.pdf

the rest of the info is written in other languages so this looks like one of their "WE'LL SELL IT ANY WHERE BUT IN US" speakers. kind of like the last 250 they made.

One thing the white paper settled for me is that this is NOT a replacement to the 250 but just another variant. It uses a 12" woofer and a 6 1/2" mid-bass so this is a smaller unit based on the design of the 250 to most likely be sold only outside the US ( like TI3000 and TI5000 )

Now one really interesting thing about the woofers in the white paper is that the way they describe them is exactly like the transducers for the Studio L - "Rubber surronds, high-temperature, over-sized Kapton voice coils [ whatever over sized means?????], cast-aluminum baskets and HeatScape motor structures [means it's got hole in the center - wow] so it sounds exactly like the trans used in the Studio L EXCEPT FOR ONE THING - THEY MAKE NO MENTION OF WHAT THE CONES ARE MADE OF!!!!!

Now that is strange, so it can only be one of two things
1. It's using the same Poly-Plas cones but they don't mention it so it doesn't sound too much like the Studio L's
or
2. It does use a better cone material - but if it did then it's strange that the PR People won't make use of such a detail to sell with..If they're proud of the hole in the back of the motor, surely they'll brag about different cones material and it's advanges..

hard to know exactly but most likely they're using the same poly-plas material.

and if that's the case then no, the speakers ( tl260) would not be worth that to me just to add a 12" woofer and 250 shaped box.. the exchange rate for the Euro is around 1.24% so that would make each speaker around $2500 ( or 5000 for both)

Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure they are very nice sounding speakers and who knows maybe in 5 years I'll get a pair on Ebay for cheap and ship'em over ( to be played for a month and then put in storage). If all they have done with the studio-l is to use the same tranducers as previous models and just stick a utrahigh tweeter and wrap it in a new box then the 12"version should be much better... ( I had nothing to compare to this time..just thinking of comparisons made 6 years ago)

So please understand my enthusiasm for the studio-L is based upon Two factors
1. Sound quality AND price...

for a pair of $1600 speakers ( 890) these are fantastic sounding, as the price gets around $5000 then there are other ( maybe better) options.. I'll have to hear the TL260's to make an opinion...

Now that we know the 260 IS NOT a replacement for the 250 then that leaves an interesting "HOLE" in the line up and maybe, just maybe we'll see a NEW 250 as part of the 60th year lineup ( could that be what GT was looking at so fondly in the picture????)

we'll see.... I'll love for them to do a new 250 AND IF THAT'S THE CASE THEN MY MONEY WOULD BE SPENT ON THAT AND NOT THE TL260..( I'm sure it would be expensive)

here's what I'll like to see...(please, pretty please:bouncy: )

1. Be ultra-high and high tweeter with wave-guides
2. 3" to 4" Be cone mid-range
3. new 8" transducer based on either the 1500AL ( alnico mag) with large coil OR Maybe something different like a 8" cone of the ceramic composite stuff they use OR better yet something that combines the properties of both ( fast and warm )
and of course
4. 14" based on the 1500AL ( alnico mag) again with dual voice coil

2" thick box with 21/2" baffle with Carbon Fiber Composite Baffle ( like used in the LSR32 montiors) or something better covered with neopreme ( or some better)..with heavy duty vibration reducing gaskets between the transducers and box.

and of course CC crossovers..

oh well we can dream..and I'm sure if they do make a new 250 then it will be better than anything I can imagine....

Titanium Dome
07-11-2006, 11:29 AM
While I'd love to have a speaker with (C)Klapton's voice coil in it, I'd settle for Kapton®. :D (Sorry, couldn't resist. You probably hit both K and L at once.)

In my mind, the 250s always had LE14H-x in them, so the 12" does seem wrong. However, having the opportunity to compare the PS stack, L250, XPL200, and L7 four ways on a regular basis, I gotta say that the LE120H-1 in the L7 doesn't give anything away to the LE14H-1, and very little to the LE14H-3. If the 12" in the TL260 compares favorably to or is an improvement on the LE120H-1, it might be quite surprising.

The TL260 does have that Studio L Series look to it as far as the drivers go. I believe you're right that it's pricey at the current rate of exchange.

Thomax
07-11-2006, 11:49 AM
I agree, it's not a new 250, and it looks less expensive than its price. All I know is that people who have listenned to them say they are very good for the price.

JBLnsince1959
07-11-2006, 12:04 PM
While I'd love to have a speaker with (C)Klapton's voice coil in it, I'd settle for Kapton®. :D (Sorry, couldn't resist. You probably hit both K and L at once.)

.

Thanks for the proof-reading there :D ( yes, we all know about my typo's, I've had a few good ones)

I'll have more to say later to both you and Thomax, but I have to work right now

JBLnsince1959
07-11-2006, 12:30 PM
In my mind, the 250s always had LE14H-x in them, so the 12" does seem wrong. .

I'll just make a quik note here.... in Europe some of the more popular JBL's were the TI5000 and TI3000 from the mid 90's, these are shaped like the 250's pyramid but contain smaller tranducers....from what I understand they sound great. I was going to get some and ship them over here but never got around to it ( someday)

the 250's are very popluar also, I'm sure that these ( 260's) were designed in Europe for Europe to cash in on the "good vibs" that already exists for the 250, TI5000 and TI3000

the 260's should do well there.....and one day i will own them...:D

MJC
07-11-2006, 06:07 PM
( IMHO - Damn I hate this new "modern" HT small shit design, can anyone tell me why speakers designed for Home theater are the smallest speakers around, you would think that they would be the largest..OH WAIT of course..who cares how they sound as long as they look good by not sticking out into the room)

In one word, women; second words, girley men.

I worked for an architect a few year ago, that designed his house and had a ht of sorts. The HT contractor used Triad speakers, their small ones, and had them hid in the cabinets that went across the front wall. To my way of thinking, putting speakers(and I don't mean in-wall speakers) into cabinets is about the most assinine thing I can think of, as far as audio goes.

I like my speakers IN the room and big. Now I do like them to kind of blend in. At first, my ht walls were Spanish White(because I really didn't know what color I wanted), so when I built the 3 front L212s I did them in a light colored wood. Then I decided to do the walls in Burgundy, so then I made black grilles to put over them, so they would blend with the walls again.

Now I'm glad to hear that the Studio Ls are a big improvement over the Studios, never much liked the sound of them. But I still haven't seen the Studio Ls in any stores around here, yet. A familiar story, again; still haven't seen the PS either.
It sounds as if I might at least like to have the Studio Ls in the MB for surround sound there, to replace the L55s.

JBLnsince1959
07-13-2006, 06:43 AM
BTW: JBLsince1959: In my best Hanibal Lecter: "Luv the new avatar"-S.G.

I can't beleive my lady got pictures of that guy on I25, he must have doing 85, she was taking pictures while I was speeding up to catch him...... (I think he got "wind" of what we were doing as he started to pull down his shirt)

anyway, this avatar fits my personality better ( strange humor)..I never planned on using Whit as my avatar...I just put it there because I couldn't get her pictures in a post some years ago when I was doing a back and forth with Dome.....It looked good so i left it ( couldn't think of anything else either)

anyway, if people like this new avatar it I'll leave it....

Titanium Dome
07-13-2006, 08:38 AM
I can't beleive my lady got pictures of that guy on I25, he must have doing 85, she was taking pictures while I was speeding up to catch him...... (I think he got "wind" of what we were doing as he started to pull down his shirt)

anyway, this avatar fits my personality better ( strange humor)..I never planned on using Whit as my avatar...I just put it there because I couldn't get her pictures in a post some years ago when I was doing a back and forth with Dome.....It looked good so i left it ( couldn't think of anything else either)

anyway, if people like this new avatar it I'll leave it....

Since we have a whole new GS dog thread here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11380

why not put some great shots of Whitney in it? That way you can keep the fat, hairy-assed man, too.

Now, if you could only PhotoShop some L820s on the bike in place of the saddlebags, we'd be in business. :p

JBLnsince1959
07-13-2006, 09:00 AM
Since we have a whole new GS dog thread here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=11380

why not put some great shots of Whitney in it? That way you can keep the fat, hairy-assed man, too.



I will later on, but since I started the thread for Roth I thought it would look self serving if I had put in pictures of Whit. Once everyone else has posted their babies i'll put Whit out there.... Besides most of my pictures of her are on the forum some where already.....

Interesting how BOTH my avatars are covered with hair.....;)

WEll, I've got to do some serious work the next month or so.. may not be on much if I can stay away... this place can really eat up your time if you're not careful.....

OK, back to the Studio L

MJC
07-13-2006, 06:07 PM
I just found out you can't always trust the JBL web site's "where to buy". I called the Fry's in Sac, CA.(by far the closest one from here) to ask if they had the new JBL Studio L speakers, the answer was no. Didn't know when they were getting any either.
I was planning to drive over there to do an audition on Saturday.
Oh well, try later.
Just checked the Fry's Outpost.com for the Studio L. They only showed the sub, and said to call for availability.
One would think that JBLs were made half way around the world from CA, instead of only around 400~500 miles south of Sac.

Phil H
07-13-2006, 07:16 PM
If it is like the Fry's close to me, I wouldn't trust the answer from them either. Just the other day, I rushed through Fry's to get a surge suppresor for the GF (old one went zap, zap, smoke, smoke). I quickly looked at a black L890. I didn't have time to listen. But, with the grilles on they are presentable. They are better looking in person than the picutes on JBL's website. They have a more subdued appearrance in person.

MJC
07-13-2006, 08:12 PM
If it is like the Fry's close to me, I wouldn't trust the answer from them either.
I was thinking about that too, but I'd have to drive about 150 miles to know for sure.

JBLnsince1959
07-14-2006, 12:55 PM
I was thinking about that too, but I'd have to drive about 150 miles to know for sure.

call them and talk to the manager, tell him your 150 miles and ask for a responsible person to check the floor and back room ( hey the web says you do...Your kids say you don't etc)....

I usually get better service if I put the main person on the burner ( altho times and people are changing)

Good luck..too bad it's so far to KC, you could listen to them all you want here...

I'm going to listen to them this weekend again AND play some Infinity Beta's that are beside them....I listen Tuesday night to the L's again ( I really like them, played different music) and for a minute listened to the beta's ( with the C.M.M.D. cones) NOT BAD and a REAL surprise for $499 speakers ( each I believe)!!!!! Don't think I would buy the Beta's ( they had them on sell for $327 - CHEAP!!) But I want to do an A/B comparison for fun. At first blush ( which can be wrong, I only listened for a minute) they sounded more open and airy....

Oh while I'm here...Tuesday the main CD I listen to was Dig by Boz Scaggs, great CD and has lots of REAL and DEEP BASS...real musical bass and NOT computer generated movie crap bass

the studio L's played it very nice, I mean real nice..this is the same CD that I blew away $30,000+ and $50,000+ JM Labs Utopia speakers, the woofers just couldn't handle it and were so Flabby..turned me against the Utopica's real quick. ( so much for their W design - needs a real voice coil too)

any way the 890's handled it..I could here the limits of the dual 8's at the bottom of the notes( sort of dropped off)..but they really did a good job considering...not as good as the 1400's but really surprising for dual 8's..BUT MUCH BETTER than the BIG Utopica's

My biggest disappointment is that the largest JBL makes the Studio L's is dual 8's..not even dual 10's ( maybe out of the cost range)

anyway, good luck MJC on finding some

Robh3606
07-14-2006, 03:32 PM
The big Grand Utopias have real room integration issues with the bass drivers. That could be what you were hearing when you listened to them. Take a look at this!!! You wouldn't expect this in a TOTL system.

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/921/index4.html

Rob:)

JBLnsince1959
07-14-2006, 04:46 PM
The big Grand Utopias have real room integration issues with the bass drivers. That could be what you were hearing when you listened to them. Take a look at this!!! You wouldn't expect this in a TOTL system.

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/921/index4.html

Rob:)

Thanks Rob.....I'm not sure what it was but I heard the same thing on many models of JM Labs( even the smaller models) and it wasn't good... It was at my local MAC dealer that I listened. On the Big Utopica's I think the JM Lab guys setup ( don't quote me tho). they had every model BUT the grands.....

after many listening sessions I gave up on them..

I figured the sound was intrinsic to the basic design of the woofers....When any Strong low bass came thru them it was like cones were flapping instead of being tight.... they really sounded like they were out control....It wasn't so much as a bump or drop...it was just the way it handled the bass in general- in my mind I saw a sheet flapping in the wind. all I could think of was those small voice coils being over worked...another way of saying it is that it seemed out of balance ( too much)

Now I'm not a "tight" bass person myself..I like the bass to sound full, But the bass of the JM Labs still trouble me..and I listened a lot..

No one else seemed to mind ( the salesmen thought it was great bass - I thought it was bloomy and flappy), but then no else had big-ass home-grown JBL 15"ers for their listening pleasure either..;) so it could me..but I must have spent the better part of two weeks listening ( they know me real well)

anyway, thanks for the info I really appreciate it, I'll digess it tonight. Maybe the answer lies in these notes.

BTW, maybe you'll know this..did stereophile put out the review of the K2????

MJC
07-14-2006, 06:38 PM
Well, I've decided that I need to get out of this town, for at least a day, and I've never been into a Fry's to see what they've got, so off I go tomorrow morning. The bad part of that I know Sac is hotter than it is here. But I'll be on the road about 6:30AM, so I'll be there before the store opens. Get in, check it out, hopefully the Studio Ls, and then whatever I decide to do after.

Titanium Dome
07-14-2006, 10:52 PM
Well, I've decided that I need to get out of this town, for at least a day, and I've never been into a Fry's to see what they've got, so off I go tomorrow morning. The bad part of that I know Sac is hotter than it is here. But I'll be on the road about 6:30AM, so I'll be there before the store opens. Get in, check it out, hopefully the Studio Ls, and then whatever I decide to do after.

:drive: Road trip!

Good luck. I hope you're successful. :yes:

Rusnzha
07-14-2006, 11:19 PM
Originally written by JBLnsince1959



and for a minute listened to the beta's ( with the C.M.M.D. cones) NOT BAD and a REAL surprise for $499 speakers ( each I believe)!!!!! Don't think I would buy the Beta's ( they had them on sell for $327 - CHEAP!!) But I want to do an A/B comparison for fun. At first blush ( which can be wrong, I only listened for a minute) they sounded more open and airy....

I don't know about the center for the Studio Ls, but I replaced my S-Center with a Beta C360, and it was so much better. The Infinity blends very well with the S412s & S38s and is very transparenent. It doesn't stick out like a sore thumb like the S-Center did. The S-Center was like some kind of effects box -- I would have liked to try playing electric guitar through it, because it sounded more like a small vintage Marshall tube amp than anything else. Cool for guitar, not so cool for CD listening. The Infinity gave me a major improvement in my overall sound. Now if I only had the money for a Lexicon RV-8. :banghead:

PS -- Love your avater -- speaking of cracks, gross stuff cracks me up!

JBLnsince1959
07-15-2006, 06:55 AM
Russ...I think there's something to the C.M.M.D. cones and i'll like to hear more...JBL has some form of ceramic cones used in a ultra-high end HT setup ( don't hear much about it)

I was very surprised by what I heard with the C.M.M.D. cones....

I haven't been a fan of Infinity designs for the bigger models like the INTERLUDE 60 with side firing woofers ( 4 way with 12" powered woofer), .. would be fun to buy and play around ( maybe build a real box for the transducers). If they were'n't side firing thenI would buy them in a heart beat and use for center channels.....Seems like they have some great cones but are struggling with basic designs....alot of their stuff seems to copy older designs by JBL....now it looks like they are big into array speakers with a series of SMALL shit-ass speakers ( 31/2") so they don't stick out OR in the wall speakres

It's a sad day as this may be the real future of speakers.

We'll need to PM each other about you guys coming up and maybe we can make some time to go listen to those also.

as far as the avatar Well..By-Cracky...this may be temporary.. as I said to Dome..."once the shock and humor wears off then it just becomes another asshole on the forum..." ;)

Whit was soooooo much prettier...

Let's PM about next weekend if you guys are still able come up..

JBLnsince1959
07-15-2006, 07:34 AM
Well, I've decided that I need to get out of this town, for at least a day, and I've never been into a Fry's to see what they've got, so off I go tomorrow morning. .

Have a safe trip and hopefully the Studio L's will be there

Good luck

MJC
07-16-2006, 06:55 AM
I made it to Fry's in Sac yesterday. That place is the size of a Costco! Four audio rooms and three or four HT rooms, so they were headed in the right direction, compared to BB, but that's where it ends. The HT rooms were filled with large screen TVs only. Guess someone forgot to tell them you need a 5.1 audio system for HT as well.
One of the audio rooms that had JBLs, only had a Sony receiver for a source, no cd or dvd players. That room had the Studio L820 bookshelf speakers, LC1 and other JBLs, no 890. I ask the sales guy, when are you getting the 890s in. Checks on the computer and sez, "we show them in stock". I ask why they're not on display.
So he brings ONE out and hooks it up in another room that had a H/K745 receiver and a dvd player. I drop in one of the cds, that I brought, this sounds pretty sweet. Another sales guy comes in, and I tell them, if you guys expect me to buy these, you better get a pair connected.
So while I'm listening to one, they dig another one out and set it up in the other room and then drag the first one over there.
As it turns out, they had completely sold out their first shipment of 890s, including the original display pair. And then weren't able to get any for at least two weeks. They said they had just got these in, but no one had enough sense to put a pair back on display! If you want sales, well...

As JBLnsince1959 has said, these speakers sound great, especially for the price. These are a much better system than either the Studio or Northridge series. So much so that decided to bring a pair home, and give them a REAL test drive. And I've got 30 days to decide if they stay.
Being that these are full range speakers I've been running them w/o any subs. Played the 1812 Overture, for the first time with no subs. The canons didn't shake the room, like they would with subs playing, but those dual 8" woofers are no slouches either.
So far the highes haven't come forward, as they did in the sound rooms, but I would think that my HT/LR is not as live(thicker carpet, pad, on wood floor, instead of concrete and bigger padded recliners).
The 890s don't like EQ, at least with no subs in the mix. Also they didn't like the "Dolby vs 2SP REF", which my L212s love, it makes their wide soundstage even wider. I don't know why there would be a difference. When I tried the Dolby vs 3SP REF, which brought the center L212 into play, it was as it should be. Of coarse, vs is virtual surround, which to me isn't even close to surround, but it does expand a stereo soundstage.
So to this point I'm not hearing the overall soundstage and as clear highes that I've been used to, but I'll continue to test. More later

Titanium Dome
07-16-2006, 10:15 AM
Great story, and true to my own experience at Frys. The associates are under trained, their sales acumen is zero, and they never know what they do or do not have. One must always ask, even insist to learn the truth about what's in stock.

You make a very important point about the room eating the highs. The following sidebar comments are general in nature and are not meant to reflect your particular situation.

Sometimes we get so caught up in sound absorption and bass management that we lose the high end. By the time we add carpeting, drapes, sound panels, furniture, bass traps, plants, diffractive surfaces (book shelves, open cabinets, wall fixtures, etc.), we suddenly wonder, Where'd the highs go?

My garage has a concrete floor (surprise, surprise :eek: ) and mildly textured ceiling, but the walls are replete with all kinds of storage. Some of my JBLs sound better in there than anywhere else I've put them, and a few are way too bright in there. My LR sucks the treble out of everything incluidng the Performance Series but it's great for bass mangement; thank goodness for calibration and EQ!

Back to your situation, I'm sure you'll find the highs if you seek them, and they won't be in the same place as you find the highs from the L212s. Good luck, and great tale. :yes:

MJC
07-16-2006, 11:02 AM
Sometimes we get so caught up in sound absorption and bass management that we lose the high end. By the time we add carpeting, drapes, sound panels, furniture, bass traps, plants, diffractive surfaces (book shelves, open cabinets, wall fixtures, etc.), we suddenly wonder, Where'd the highs go?

This morning I turned on the MC channels and tried the Dolby vs 2sp, it was working much better, but it wasn't right at all last night with cds. I also tried the eq, it brought in the highs, but the bass was not good. I can run the L212s either way, just a matter of taste. Still haven't added the sub1500s yet, will later today.
If I was to keep the Ls in the HT I could remove the 12" subs, being the Ls go to 28htz, and just run the two sub 1500s.
The Studio Ls and the L212s seem to be a much closer timbre match, than when I had three L55s up front and the L212s on the side. When action moved front to back it was way off. Didn't notice that last night watching Twister.
I will try the Ls back here in the MB, in place of the L55s, to the sides of this 32" screen, connected to a Marantz receiver later this month.

JBLnsince1959
07-16-2006, 11:30 AM
MJC

I'm working so not much time to add much, except to say that yesterday I had a chance to sneak out and listen to the Studio Ls' again, only this time I also listen to the Infinity Beta's and JBL Venue series...

compared to to the other speakers ( A/B testing) the studio L's sounded "darker" and fuller, the Infinity beta's with their C.M.M.D. cones were far more brighter, open, clear and precise in the Mid and highs than the Studio L's. the Venue's were also brighter than the Studio's ( doesn't mean better tho)

I'll have to listen when I can take someone...it's hard to do the switching and listen to..

so far I'm thinking.... "if only I could get the studio L's with the C.M.M.D. mids and highs"

I'll have to do much more fine listening to study the difference, particularly in the mid-bass and bass area...

MJC
07-16-2006, 05:05 PM
compared to to the other speakers ( A/B testing) the studio L's sounded "darker" and fuller, the Infinity beta's with their C.M.M.D. cones were far more brighter, open, clear and precise in the Mid and highs than the Studio L's. the Venue's were also brighter than the Studio's ( doesn't mean better tho)
I didn't listen to any Infinitys yesterday, should have, but the sound room which seemed to have the most speakers only had a receiver for a source. That's the room they ended up putting the 890s after I'd listened to one of them on a H/K and a dvd player, in another room.
I guess some people are just too lazy to properly set up a sound room with enough gear so a customer can do a proper audition.
But having heard the Infinity Preludes a few years ago, I know what you mean about the highs. They are some of the most neutral speakers I've ever heard.

JBLnsince1959
07-17-2006, 12:19 PM
MJC

I think I'm a little confused as to your setup..are you using these HT or 2 channel, or both....what are they begin run by??

yogaplayer
07-18-2006, 03:51 PM
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/jbl_l890.htm

Not so enthusiastic review from a reviewer who owns Vanderteen 1C. They have measurements too.

Titanium Dome
07-18-2006, 06:52 PM
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/jbl_l890.htm

Not so enthusiastic review from a reviewer who owns Vanderteen 1C. They have measurements too.

It was hard to give this guy any serious credit after reading this paragraph:


My own audio interests have led me to a more intimate engagement with music, one with a heightened sense of involvement defined by parameters (soundstaging, detail retrieval, overall musicality) that my 16-year-old self would never have understood, let alone cared about. And to that end, I enjoy exploring the world of specialized audio manufacturers big and small, but all focused on the thrilling, accurate re-creation of music.

IOW, "I'm biased toward specialized and boutique brands because they give me a special feeling." I do think he made some effort to be fair, although the bit about him having perfect memory about the sound of some speakers that weren't there and comparing them favorably against the Studio Ls is just foolish.

MJC
07-18-2006, 08:13 PM
MJC

I think I'm a little confused as to your setup..are you using these HT or 2 channel, or both....what are they begin run by??

I'm using them right now as my main L/R in a HT/music setup, along with 5 L212s. But its just to hear how they perform. They are being run by a H/K 635 receiver and a Parasound amp.
I'll also try them back in the MB's audio setup, where I have the L55s.

The chance that I'm going to keep them is only 50%, at best. I've got 4 weeks to decide before I take them back to Fry's.
They sounded fairly good at the store, so I thought I'd buy them to see if I might want them to replace the L55s.
From what I've heard so far, there is no chance they would replace the L212s. The soundstage of the mirror image L212s is better, and the 890 highs haven't come thru, as they did in the store. Plus they don't seem to like any EQ. They are nice sounding speakers, but not up to the par of the L212.
Consider this, the pair of 890 list for $1798, in '06 $, the L212s were $2000, list in the late '70s, if I adjust for inflation, that would be about $8000 now. Making the comparision of the two unfair. But they should be an upgrade from the L55s.

This test of the 890s is really in frustration of not being able to do an audition of the PS over the last 4 years, short of buying them off the Harman online store before ever hearing them.

JBLnsince1959
07-18-2006, 08:36 PM
and the 890 highs haven't come thru, as they did in the store. Plus they don't seem to like any EQ. They are nice sounding speakers, but not up to the par of the L212.
.

yes, that would be comparing a $1700 pair of speakers against a $8000 pair of speakers..no contest...

If the highs are not there then I would look at your equipment or setup...audio stuff is funny...some things just don't mix well. everything I had that wokred great with the 4430's didn't work at all with the PS..I had to start over from the interconnects on up...

I'm flabbergasted at the last review...these speakers are ANYthing but bright..I'm not sure where the guy is coming from..

As far as the PS series, Before you buy from the web Pm me about something...when i get time ( OK, when I feel like it) I have some things to say about the PS series..what they are...and what they are not...

Zilch
07-19-2006, 11:34 AM
L890, top
L100, bottom

I'm becoming a frequency response conspiracy theorist.... :p

MJC
07-19-2006, 05:42 PM
[quote]
If the highs are not there then I would look at your equipment or setup...audio stuff is funny...some things just don't mix well. everything I had that wokred great with the 4430's didn't work at all with the PS..I had to start over from the interconnects on up...

I never said I didn't like the sound of these speakers, just they lacked highs in a room that's not totally live.
In the audio room at Fry's they showed a fairly good top end, but that room has a concrete floor, thin commercial carpet and windows along one wall. That makes a live room. The receiver was a H/K 745.
Now I've never considered my LR/HT to be dead. No wall treatment, a couple of windows, three doors, thick carpet/pad on wood floors and 4 padded recliners. That mix, I would think, makes the room about neutral.
With the H/K635's EQ on gives me all the highs and bass I what, thru the L212s, even with the EQ off, its still there, just a bit less.
You're the one who called the 890s dark and full, and I would agree with that, to a point. With the EQ on the 890s show some highs, but the bass self destructed.
Last night I moved the 890s into the MB, sitting to both ends of the computer table, connected to a Marantz receiver, sounds about the same as with the H/K. Right now I'm listening to a cd, with my head right in the middle and slightly forward, sounds very nice. They are an upgrade from the L55s and stand tall enough to project sound properly when laying in bed. It just a matter of do/will I like them enough to keep them. That's still undecided.


I'm flabbergasted at the last review...these speakers are ANYthing but bright..I'm not sure where the guy is coming from..
As I said, they can show highs, in a live room.



As far as the PS series, Before you buy from the web Pm me about something...when i get time ( OK, when I feel like it) I have some things to say about the PS series..what they are...and what they are not

I'm not likely to ever do that, I don't like buying speakers I can't audition first.

JBLnsince1959
07-19-2006, 07:01 PM
I never said I didn't like the sound of these speakers, just they lacked highs in a room that's not totally live.

Now I've never considered my LR/HT to be dead. No wall treatment, a couple of windows, three doors, thick carpet/pad on wood floors and 4 padded recliners. That mix, I would think, makes the room about neutral.
With the H/K635's EQ on gives me all the highs and bass I what, thru the L212s, even with the EQ off, its still there, just a bit less.
.

You may have misunderstood my intent...I was just saying (or trying to) that there can be many things that can affect the sound of the speakers...you made it clear that you liked the speakers altho they may not replace the L212....( the L212 are way better IMHO)




They are an upgrade from the L55s and stand tall enough to project sound properly when laying in bed. It just a matter of do/will I like them enough to keep them. That's still undecided..

cool....

when I said they were "dark" it was compared to certain other speakers..the 890's are very balanced and full sounding.....I'm sure for the right application they'll be perfect. At this point I really like them but i don't have a place for their kind of sound ( dual 8's). altho I have considered sitting them next to a 1400 and running the wire to the 890's and not the 800's, sound's like fun but not a reason to buy them:D ;)

I'll be interested in your further comparisons as time goes on...

MJC
07-19-2006, 07:26 PM
When I first saw the Studio L Series on JBL's web site I thought of getting the wall mount L/R, center, surrounds for this room and use my PB12 sub with them, thus eliminating some of the clutter in this room. And when I got to Fry's I did listen to the 820s first, and thinking, with a sub, these would be very nice. But I went there to check out the 890s and liked the looks of them and their sound.
After 28 years I guess I'm getting tired of looking at the wide baffle L212/PS types and even wider subs. Which is one reason I haven't bought the PS, although I'd like to audition them.
I find the narrow towers more pleasing to the eye now. In that same mind set, of all the speakers I've heard the last 6 years, and if money was no object, I'd buy the Infinity Prelude MTS system. Hands down, one of the best sounding, most neutral speaker systems I've ever heard. And I really like their looks, including their side firing subs. And the only place you can find them now is on the Harman Online store, but no matching centers. Even Infinity's web site doesn't show them any more.

JBLnsince1959
07-19-2006, 07:38 PM
After 28 years I guess I'm getting tired of looking at the wide baffle L212/PS types and even wider subs. Which is one reason I haven't bought the PS, although I'd like to audition them.



If you need a place to store those L212's just mail them to me;)






In that same mind set, of all the speakers I've heard the last 6 years, and if money was no object, I'd buy the Infinity Prelude MTS system. .


I agree BIG TIME...I'm really wanting a pair of those..

MJC
07-19-2006, 08:08 PM
JBLnsince1959]If you need a place to store those L212's just mail them to me;)


You wish







I agree BIG TIME...I'm really wanting a pair of those

A pair, hell no, 7, center and at least 2 subs.

MJC
07-22-2006, 12:45 PM
I moved the 890s to another room, connecting them to an old Sony Prologic receiver and Yamaha turntable. First time I've had the turntable connected since '99, when I bought the Marantz 880.
The only advantage to the Sony is its manually adjusted parametric eq, and phono input. I added about 3db at the bass end and starting at 8k steadily increased the output up to +10db @ 18k.
I tried a number of LPs, including Grand Funk's Closer to Home, Olivia's Totally Hot, her only 'really rock' LP, and a couple of early '60s Elvis LPs. That EQ setup brought in the highs and gave an overall good sound across the entire range.

That differed from when the 890s where connected to the H/K 635, which of coarse, has the auto EZSet/EQ, that EQ brought in the highs at the expense of totally distorting the bass. And I have no idea why. That same EQ just makes the L212s even better. And why are the 890s seemingly not compatable with another Harman product's EQ. Yet in Fry's the 890s had good highs when connected to the H/K 745, and I don't remember if the EQ was on.
The soundstage is still about the same, nowhere near as wide or as deep as the Mirror imaged L212s. But the 890s are good sounding speakers.

By comparision, the Marantz only has the Cinema RE-EQ, which only works with DD and DTS. And the Marantz and Sony only go to 20k, making the 890's super tweeter useless.
But will I keep them, don't know yet, got 3 more weeks to decide.

JBLnsince1959
07-22-2006, 04:24 PM
I added about 3db at the bass end and starting at 8k steadily increased the output up to +10db @ 18k.


something doesn't sound right ( excuse the pun)....

The 3 DB in the bass I can understand, but the highs should not need that much....From a general view and also fromy experience at the show room, that just doesn't compute...is it possible you've got a bad pair?

MJC
07-22-2006, 06:27 PM
The 3 DB in the bass I can understand, but the highs should not need that much
Actually, no. While I was listening to Yes' Fragile I backed it off, way too bright. That Sony eq seems a bit odd, but maybe not. The bass eq and the treble eq overlap the mid eq. With the bass 99htz~1k; the treble 1k~10k; and the mid from 20htz~18k. Right now its -.8db @ 99htz, on the bass; +1.2db @ 6.3k on the mid control, and +4.4db @ 9k on the treble. So overall the slope is only increasing slightly from 20htz~18khtz.
So to my ears, it sounds pretty good. With the 890s being ported its doing its bass thing all the time.
But I still don't understand the problems with the bass using the H/K 635, here and there not having any problems, using the 745 at Fry's. I got the highs in both cases, but with the H/K635 eq to L890 bass problems I wasn't leaving the eq on, thus losing the highs.

MJC
07-23-2006, 08:01 AM
Well, I think I've got the L890s dialed in as good as they're going to get. Unfortunately, they're only connected to a prologic receiver, but that eq has brought the highs to life. The 'Bridge Over Troubled Water' album was great on those speakers.
I might try one more time, connecting them to the H/K receiver to see if I can get that eq to work with the 890s. That is the only receiver, of the three, that has a frequency response that is over 20K. Otherwise, the super tweeter is useless.

JBLnsince1959
07-23-2006, 08:24 AM
That is the only receiver, of the three, that has a frequency response that is over 20K. Otherwise, the super tweeter is useless.

well, yes and no....the super tweeters' rolloff below 20K is helping the tweeter ( according to GT); also, there is some proof that the higher harmonics above 20K do affect the stuff down below...but mostly it's the stuff BELOW 20K that we really here....

of course these's much debate about this but I'll go with what GT had to say..

by the way Russ ( Rusnzha) is here this weekend and he's thinking the same thing I am ( he says hi)...

let us know more off what you find..

also, the H/K receiver you're using, how many amps does it put out or what is it's specs ( I'm not familiar with it)

take care

MJC
07-23-2006, 08:38 PM
The irony of this is, that of the receivers I have, the one that's not digital seems to work best with the 890s. And and GT has said, the Studio Ls are made for digital audio, as are all the current JBLs.
The H/K is only processing the signal, its connected to a Parasound HCA 2505 amp.
But if I do decide to keep them, they won't be used in the main HT, where the H/K receiver is, because that would mean breaking up a complete 7 channel L212 system.
So they might just stay connected to the Sony and the turntable. Of coarse, buying a phono pre-amp and adding it to the H/K would be cheaper than the 890s. Or I could move them back to the MB's system.
But spending the time finding the right receiver for these speakers is worth while.

Titanium Dome
07-23-2006, 10:46 PM
That HK AVR 635 goes well below 20 Hz and beyond 100kHz, so it should be a good match. Yet, I wonder if the older HK gear (or any older gear for that matter) is really prepared to handle auto EQ on speakers that may exceed the expectations of the EQ logic.

The Frys in Manhattan Beach was running an AVR 645 (not yet for sale)through the Studio Ls and it sounded great.

Maybe you should reset everything on the 635 to defaults and forget about using the EZ Set/EQ. Tweak it by hand. It could be that the ultra high capabilities of the super tweeter are messing the calibration up. The 645 (sibling of the 745) due next month probably is more capable of handling these brand new speakers with their heretofore unexpected high frequency capability.

Zilch
07-24-2006, 12:30 AM
Pssst :

Measure....

JBLnsince1959
07-24-2006, 05:38 AM
Pssst :

Measure....

and spoil all the fun??????????

MJC
07-25-2006, 05:28 PM
[Titanium Dome]
That HK AVR 635 goes well below 20 Hz and beyond 100kHz, so it should be a good match. Yet, I wonder if the older HK gear (or any older gear for that matter) is really prepared to handle auto EQ on speakers that may exceed the expectations of the EQ logic.
The only problem was what the EQ did to the bass, no good. The highs came in just great. So I left the EQ off, which cut the highs, as if I was using THX processing. I did run the EZSet at least twice, as I moved the 890's positions a couple of times. But in the store, connected to the 745, the highs and bass were good.


Maybe you should reset everything on the 635 to defaults and forget about using the EZ Set/EQ. Tweak it by hand. It could be that the ultra high capabilities of the super tweeter are messing the calibration up. The 645 (sibling of the 745) due next month probably is more capable of handling these brand new speakers with their heretofore unexpected high frequency capability.
I didn't try a reset, and I always do a tweek, manually, after I run the auto, as the auto does not get it quite right, as far as distances, xovers, large or small settings go.
But I'm not about to screw up an all L212 7 channel system by replacing the main upgraded 212s with the 890s, even tho they were a lot closer timbre match they I thought they would be. Much closer than when I had the 3 L55s across the front(which gave me a good front, you know, 3 of the same speaker) and the original L212 pair on the sides.
I do like the sound produced by the L890s, despite the fact, they don't produce the soundstage of the mirrored L212s. So its just comes down to which room I'll keep them in, if I keep them at all. The PS, I'm sure they are not.

And if I was to put them back in the MB again, that I wouldn't do better to exchange them for the L820s. With the 820s mounted to the wall, to the sides of the 32" LCD, and connect them to the PB12, that I'm not using at this time, to save space along that already cluttered wall.
On the other hand, I do like how they sound with the Sony receiver and Yamaha turntable, in the other BR(formerly a LR).

JBLnsince1959
07-28-2006, 03:34 AM
MJC

I just thought of something, I was reading the brochure for the L series and it shows that the speakers are designed for Bi-amping...meaning that in standard mode they would have those "Brackets-from-hell" connecting the two sets of connects. Check and see if those are on yours ( I'm sure they are). If they are try replacing the brackets with 16 to 18 gauge wire and see if there's a difference in the highs. Of course if you've done this already and I missed it.. sorry

MJC
07-29-2006, 06:25 AM
The jumpers are still in place. I had thought of taking them off, remembering the discussion of that very thing on the PT800s.
I still can't decide if I want to keep them or take them back.
I think I'll do an A,B comparision, using the Sony receiver, since it has A, B connections, between the Studio L and the L55s in the room where the Studio Ls are now. And if I decide that the 890s aren't worth the $1400, leave the L55s there.
Then I could put a pair of 820s, mounted on the wall to the sides of this 32" LCD screen, connect them to a sub. I listened to the 820s first, at Fry's, and thought that with a sub they'd work fairly well, and a pair is less than the price of one 890.
And leaving the L55s(there are 3 in this room) in the other room would really help in cleaning out some of the clutter along this wall.

Arv
08-01-2006, 01:12 PM
I’ve been considering the L series for quite some time now and probably read most of the reviews out there. It’ll be mostly for HT use and occasionally for music listening. These caught my attention because of the ultrahigh-frequency driver (which have received mixed reviews) but in case they do help, then good! So far it seems that they are great speakers for the price with some “shortcomings”. One that really stands out for me (from what I’ve read) is that the LC1 does quite have the oomph for a full blown HT. Is this true? Someone suggested using two, I wonder if that will work out, I do have the space on top of my RPTV (Mitz 73711). Any comments on using two center channel speakers? Apparently they might cause too much interference to each other. Or do I really just need one. The room is about 20x30x10, listening position will be about 15 feet away. The LC2 wouldn’t work; it’ll be too tall to fit between the RPTV and the ent. center bridge, on top would not have a good WAF.

I’m also planning on getting the L890s for L&R (I’m hoping the bass will be enough for 2-channel playback) and 820s for surround music and HTI6C for surround side and back for movies.

I’m also planning to buy the Outlaw 990 and ATI2007 amp to drive these babies. I’m using a Denon 2900 for DVD/CD playback. A major shortcoming I would say would be that the 8400P sub’s low end output, so I’m not getting one. I’m keeping my shiva sonotube (tuned to 22Hz). Also got an old Infinity RS12 servo sub to help out, and half a dozen bass shakers that I haven’t installed since I haven’t “felt” or “not felt” the need for extra bass.:D

Just wondering if the people who have purchased these speakers are happy with them. How’s everything MJC? Are you going to keep them? I listened to the 890s and 820s briefly at the Sac Frys, I couldn’t find the LC1 or 2 anywhere. Man do those 890s play loud!!! I think my ears were ringing by the time I was out of there! :barf: LOL! A bit bright if you’re used to soft domes (I currently have soft dome NHTs) but after a while I guess you’ll get used to them. I also listened to the comparable Polks but it was hard to do a good comparison since they were in different rooms. Another set I am considering are the BG Corp Z series ribbon speakers.

All comments welcome. I need all the input I can get.

One more thing I’m thinking of placing the 890s in the ent. center L&R tower upper cabinets. All I have to do is remove the glass from the door which is held by rubber strips and replace them with speaker grill fabric. Probably need to remove the rear panel to give the 890s some breathing space and lessen the boundary interactions.This added height might even help for panning since this will place the drivers just slightly lower than the center channel. I know these won’t be ideal due to the boundary interactions but its something worth a try since it’s got a great WAF (hence the in-ceiling surrounds) and it will protect my speakers from the two little monsters that run around my place. Has anyone done this with good results?

Thanks!
Arv

MJC
08-01-2006, 10:31 PM
I’ve been considering the L series
So far it seems that they are great speakers for the price with some “shortcomings”. One that really stands out for me (from what I’ve read) is that the LC1 does quite have the oomph for a full blown HT. Is this true? Someone suggested using two, I wonder if that will work out, I do have the space on top of my RPTV (Mitz 73711). Any comments on using two center channel speakers? Apparently they might cause too much interference to each other. Or do I really just need one. The room is about 20x30x10, listening position will be about 15 feet away. The LC2 wouldn’t work; it’ll be too tall to fit between the RPTV and the ent. center bridge, on top would not have a good WAF.

I’m also planning on getting the L890s for L&R (I’m hoping the bass will be enough for 2-channel playback) and 820s for surround music and HTI6C for surround side and back for movies. .:D

Just wondering if the people who have purchased these speakers are happy with them. How’s everything MJC? Are you going to keep them? I listened to the 890s and 820s briefly at the Sac Frys, I couldn’t find the LC1 or 2 anywhere. Man do those 890s play loud!!! I think my ears were ringing by the time I was out of there! :barf: LOL! A bit bright if you’re used to soft domes (I currently have soft dome NHTs) but after a while I guess you’ll get used to them. I also listened to the comparable Polks but it was hard to do a good comparison since they were in different rooms. Another set I am considering are the BG Corp Z series ribbon speakers.

All comments welcome. I need all the input I can get.

One more thing I’m thinking of placing the 890s in the ent. center L&R tower upper cabinets. All I have to do is remove the glass from the door which is held by rubber strips and replace them with speaker grill fabric. Probably need to remove the rear panel to give the 890s some breathing space and lessen the boundary interactions.This added height might even help for panning since this will place the drivers just slightly lower than the center channel. I know these won’t be ideal due to the boundary interactions but its something worth a try since it’s got a great WAF (hence the in-ceiling surrounds) and it will protect my speakers from the two little monsters that run around my place. Has anyone done this with good results?

Thanks!
Arv

As with all speakers, the Studio Ls needed some break-in time. Well after 2 1/2 weeks they are there. Where in the beginning, I had the treble on the EQ way up, I now have the EQ slope flat. The highs have really opened up.
There is PLENTY of bass, these are NOT bass shy speakers.
The 890s you listened to in the Sac Fry's are the ones I first listened to, right out of the box. And those rooms are WAY live, not typical of most rooms in a house.
The more I listen to these 890s the more I like them. I'm just using them in a stereo setup right now, with a turntable.
I did listen to the 820s for awhile at Fry's and with a sub would work well for surrounds.
As far the ent. centers go, I'm not big on them. They limit what you can do as far as placement of gear, in particular, speakers. And I don't suggest that you put the 890s in a cabinet, or any speaker, for that matter.
I thought I saw at least one of the center speakers at Fry's, but I don't remember if it was a LC1 or LC2. And using two center speakers will create a comb filter effect, not something that you want.
After almost 3 weeks of listening to the 890s, I say buy them.

Arv
08-02-2006, 10:40 AM
Thanks for the input John! I definitely agree with you that the room at Frys is WAY live. When I was reading your previous posts (after I listened to the 890s) I was wondering why you were looking for more highs when I thought there was plenty to begin with, so I'm glad to hear that after the break in that you have what you want.

Yeah I think I'm just going to stick with one center ch spkr and see how it goes, from my reseach it seems like its not worth the sonic problems.

regarding placing the 890s in the cabs, I think I'm still going to try it out. The cabs are pretty wide and with the back panel out I don't think I'm going to get a lot or rattling. I'll just have to find the best material I can line the side walls of the cabs. If it does not sound right then I'll just have to put them on the floor.

Keep us posted on your 890s!

Anyone got ideas on what to use as a baffle material for the cab walls?

Thanks!
Arv

MJC
08-02-2006, 06:20 PM
For starters how far above the floor will the bottom of the 890s be if you put them into the cab? I ask because when the 890s are on the floor the tweeters are at the correct height when you are seated.
But if you must put them into the cab, I'd try using styrofoam to line the cab. But remember that the baffle of the speakers needs to be forward of the face of the cabinet, or you'll end up with early reflections off the walls of the cab, equivilent of having speakers placed in a corner. First rule of physic for speakers is; they need space both inside the box(which is why large speakers will always sound better than small speakers, of same quality)and outside the box. I've got my main L/R more than 5' from the side walls and over 3' from the end wall, in my HT.

Arv
08-03-2006, 11:53 AM
John,

The 890s will be about 2' above the floor, I may have to wedge the back a little bit to tilt them down to the listening position like how I have my center channel (NHT vs1.2) now.

As for the cabinet walls, I was planning on getting some Sonex acoustical foam tiles but I have not looked into the best material that will absorb the needed frequency range. Do I try to eliminate reflections in the whole audio spectrum or just the mid to high end is the question?

MJC
08-04-2006, 05:06 PM
The 890s are quite heavy, and therefore, I wouldn't recommend tilting them forward. They have feet that can be used w/wo carpet spikes.
As far as being close to boundries,(read in cabinet) they have enough bass that they don't need any reinforcement, as speakers get when placed in a corner. So then, the entire baffle needs to be clear of the cabinet, imho.

One the other hand, if you insist on putting speakers into the cab, then you might think about using the 820s instead of the 890s. The 820s only require that you add a sub to get the full spectum of sound, and a pair cost less than one 890.

yogaplayer
08-09-2006, 04:50 PM
Finally, some decent photos of the Studio L series.

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/jbl_studio_l_1.shtml

yogaplayer
08-09-2006, 04:53 PM
http://www.diyzone.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Forum&file=viewtopic&forum=6&topic=84364

MJC
08-09-2006, 05:27 PM
I've been saying the last 3 1/2 weeks that these speakers are much better looking than any of the pics on the JBL web site.:applaud:

And for anyone who is thinking of buying them, and your room would be considered neutral to dead, I suggest really putting the two tweeters thru their paces. :eek: If you have a receiver that has a parmetric eq or a stand alone eq, crank up the top half of the audio range(10K+) and really shove it to those tweeters, for the first few days. And then as the sound seems to be too bright back the eq off. I did just that and now I have the eq slope completely flat. In fact the eq is now off, and the highs come thru as when I first had the upper range cranked up.
And the matching 820s are no slough either for surround speakers or even mains, with a good sub.

JBLnsince1959
08-10-2006, 05:16 AM
The jumpers are still in place. .

Hey guy if you get a chance, I'll like to hear your opinion using wires ( if I missed this sorry).instead of brackets

now that you are "settled in" try using a good 16 gauge ( braided) wire on one side and leave the bracket on the other one and A/B back and forth

I would think that the wired side would be more smooth and clear.....

would like to know if you have time....

MJC
08-11-2006, 04:42 AM
I replaced the jumpers with wire, 14ga, I'm not sure that I can hear any difference. I didn't do a l/R test. one jumper on, the other with wire.

JBLnsince1959
08-12-2006, 12:22 PM
I replaced the jumpers with wire, 14ga, I'm not sure that I can hear any difference. I didn't do a l/R test. one jumper on, the other with wire.

Thanks:applaud: , I was just wondering..

MJC
08-21-2006, 04:48 PM
The more I listen to those Titanium tweeters the better I like them. And I still have not put the grilles on the 890s yet. In fact they're still in their plastic shipping bags.
So as good as the Studio Ls are, I can only imagine how good the PS are with all Titanium drivers.
Then again, I remember how much I liked the 250Ti, back in '87.

jblnut
08-24-2006, 12:14 PM
I remember how much I like the 250TI on a regular basis...

:)


jblnut

JBLnsince1959
08-24-2006, 02:48 PM
I can only imagine how good the PS are with all Titanium drivers.

.

It's amazing:bouncy: and gets better all the time.:applaud:

Even tho at heart I'm still a Horn guy, I love the PS series

Titanium Dome
08-24-2006, 04:01 PM
What that L890 would sound like if the 4" PolyPlas cone were replaced with a 4" Ti inverted dome? In fact in both the L880 and L890, one could swap out the midrange AND replace the 6" or 8" drivers with Ti inverted domes, too.

Of course, the networks would be crackers and need to be rebuilt and all info below 80Hz should go somewhere else, but even so, the drivers do exist for a complete replacement. :hmm:

MJC
08-24-2006, 07:53 PM
Of course, the networks would be crackers and need to be rebuilt and all info below 80Hz should go somewhere else, but even so, the drivers do exist for a complete replacement
Think about this, the 890 has two 8" drivers and are already full range. So only replace the mid-range, and one 8" bass with the titanium drivers, and leave the other 8" bass driver to still deliver full range. And build a new CC network for the 2 tweets and 3 drivers.
Of coarse, getting two 4" and two 8" titanium drivers might be next to impossible or at least quite expensive.

JBLnsince1959
08-25-2006, 04:04 AM
I think it would be a problem design wise. Asking one 8" woofer to do all the base may be a little tough. Not sure on the design of those woofers but I think having only one 8" woofer to try and move the that much air would considerablely weaken the bass response. also, for me anyway, that would be a nightmare of a design change considering the crossover changes and box design.

If I were to build a FRANKIN-PS speaker ( and I will some time) I'll rather use 250 boxes for the PS drivers and maybe throw in an ultra-high on top.

However, it is fun to imagine....

Titanium Dome
08-25-2006, 02:19 PM
I think it would be a problem design wise. Asking one 8" woofer to do all the base may be a little tough. Not sure on the design of those woofers but I think having only one 8" woofer to try and move the that much air would considerablely weaken the bass response. also, for me anyway, that would be a nightmare of a design change considering the crossover changes and box design.

If I were to build a FRANKIN-PS speaker ( and I will some time) I'll rather use 250 boxes for the PS drivers and maybe throw in an ultra-high on top.

However, it is fun to imagine....

I basically agree with you, though I'm thinking about that 8" driver as it's installed in an enclosed space (PT800) versus how it would act in a ported space like the L890 cabinet. I'm wondering if the 80Hz lower limit is imposed by the enclosure as much as the driver design in the PT800.

IOW, would two 908Ti drivers in a vented enclosure of greater volume be able to operate below 80Hz with no issues?

The current 8" drivers in the L890 claim 28Hz (-6dB) in that enclosure. What if the 908Ti drivers could hit 32Hz or 35Hz in tandem there?

I, too would rather use a 250 enclosure with an LE14H-3 handling the low end, but I'm intrigued by the 908Ti's 80Hz limitation. Since it's only been in one enclosure that I know of, there's no way to know its performance in other applications.

JBLnsince1959
08-25-2006, 03:09 PM
I basically agree with you, though I'm thinking about that 8" driver as it's installed in an enclosed space (PT800) versus how it would act in a ported space like the L890 cabinet. I'm wondering if the 80Hz lower limit is imposed by the enclosure as much as the driver design in the PT800.

IOW, would two 908Ti drivers in a vented enclosure of greater volume be able to operate below 80Hz with no issues?

The current 8" drivers in the L890 claim 28Hz (-6dB) in that enclosure. What if the 908Ti drivers could hit 32Hz or 35Hz in tandem there?

.

Dome...

there's a lot that goes into a design for a particular freq range. I'm sure that the excursion on the 908Ti is all wrong to be a woofer. I would believe that if you did that and sent big bass notes to them for any time, they would rip apart.

MJC
08-26-2006, 07:31 AM
What if the 908Ti drivers could hit 32Hz or 35Hz in tandem there?

From what Giskard told me, when we were comparing the 908Ti to the 112A/H, the 908 is not designed to go below 80htz. And I have played the 112A, in the L212s, full range, W/O a sub, but the 112 also has only a 6db/oc xover, so it was designed to play lower.
And I had also thought about there only being one 8" bass in the 890, after I wrote that, thinking it wouldn't be enough.

JBLnsince1959
08-26-2006, 07:51 AM
And I had also thought about there only being one 8" bass in the 890, after I wrote that, thinking it wouldn't be enough.

I agree, they usually use two small woofers to replace one larger one. Two basic considerations with woofers ( this isn't all of course)..one is the excursion, but also the amount of air moved. One small woofer wouldn't move the amout of air needed to balance the system. also, the two woofers can be used to decrease the drop off level of the lower notes( or increase the sound level of the lower notes - i.e. Drews use of two 2227's in his last design to get it level down to around 80 if I remember correctly), two should increase the sound level by about 3db.

The fact that the 8" woofers in the studio L go to 28 is a sign that they really worked on increasing the excursion of those speakers to handle those notes..most stop at around 35 or so.

The more I listen and think about the studio L the more impressed I am.

Titanium Dome
08-27-2006, 09:07 AM
From what Giskard told me, when we were comparing the 908Ti to the 112A/H, the 908 is not designed to go below 80htz. And I have played the 112A, in the L212s, full range, W/O a sub, but the 112 also has only a 6db/oc xover, so it was designed to play lower.
And I had also thought about there only being one 8" bass in the 890, after I wrote that, thinking it wouldn't be enough.

The single 708G-1 in the L5 produces quite a bit of bass, but it really needs a sub to help it get that last octave. The L7 addresses this nicely with the LE120H-1.

Zilch
08-27-2006, 10:42 PM
Make and measure.

L5's 708G-1 is good to 30 Hz (-10 dB) with boundary reinforcement in this closed-box alignment.... ;)

Titanium Dome
08-27-2006, 11:15 PM
When used in the L3 and L5 ported enclosures it was alleged to go down to 35Hz without a problem. I notice JBL didn't specify any + or - dB info.

Zilch
08-28-2006, 11:30 AM
O.K., so what's the 8" woofer in Studio L?

And can we get a pic of it?

I'm not above trying it in Minis if the parameters work. :thmbsup:

Thus far, it's the venerable 116A/H I like the best....

Titanium Dome
08-28-2006, 03:32 PM
Looks like all may not be lost with the 908Ti after all.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12006

Thanks to Techbot for the contribution.

JBLnsince1959
08-29-2006, 05:11 AM
Looks like all may not be lost with the 908Ti after all.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12006

Thanks to Techbot for the contribution.

10-4 ( thanks techbot!!)

I'll be studing it in more detail later and run some numbers.....

One thing I was surprised at was the dip just under 200.

If the PS "deal" had gone thru I was thinking about using two 800's for center channel crossed over to a bass/midbass ( I have two new 2206's sitting around, that are going to be sold if I can't find something to use them for) and see how it sounds. I was wanting a little "more" on the bottom-end ( 80 to 160-200) But wasn't sure where to cross them. Those numbers sure do help.

Now, if only we could get the numbers for the rest of the PS series:hmm: :bouncy:

personally I just can't see using them for any "full" range use or for bass when we have so many good transducers already available, in particaular the big dip under 80. it would be like using E130s, 2220s, 2012s, 2020s, 2227s or 2123s midbass/midrange speakers and expecting big bass.

Dome, I quess the only way to tell is to simply test it ( Oh no not the empirical thing again). Just take two 800 and run them all out with lots of volumn as left and rights for some music or movies and let us know if they rip apart, sound weak or sound good. ( on second thought no, don't do it :p )

Titanium Dome
08-29-2006, 07:12 AM
(snip)

personally I just can't see using them for any "full" range use or for bass when we have so many good transducers already available, in particaular the big dip under 80. it would be like using E130s, 2220s, 2012s, 2020s, 2227s or 2123s midbass/midrange speakers and expecting big bass.

I don't know why one would use any 8" or 10" driver for big bass. None really delivers, not even Bose. (It's a joke kids, put down the flamethrowers.)

In pairs, the situation is improved, but still not ideal. I think even a pair of L890s would benefit from a sub. Heck, I used to run SVA1800s with a sub (LE120H-1) because those ball-busting STUDIO8 drivers didn't deliver at the low end to my satisfaction.

The intrigue for the 908Ti is being able to have a matched set of drivers from 50, 60, or 80Hz all the way up to 27kHz or higher.

Titanium Dome
08-29-2006, 07:31 AM
Dome, I quess the only way to tell is to simply test it ( Oh no not the empirical thing again). Just take two 800 and run them all out with lots of volumn as left and rights for some music or movies and let us know if they rip apart, sound weak or sound good. ( on second thought no, don't do it :p )

I have two unmounted 908Tis on the bench right now, running a sweep from 24Hz to 200Hz using FFT through the AE2000. They didn't perform so well below 48Hz, so I'm thinking it's a power issue.

Here let me take the 200W/ch offline and sub in the 600W/ch amp. Hmm. :hmm: Getting closer. They respond to the power.

Let's insert the DX4200 and auto-bridge the amp to 1200W and pump it all into one 908Ti. Wow! At moderate volume it's really handling the lower freqs pretty well; let's see if we can get a little more out of it. OH DA#N IT! :shock: THE INVERTED DOME JUST POPPED!! IT ACTUALLY RIPPED A $UCKIN% HOLE THROUGH THE DOME ABOUT 1.5" IN DIAMETER RIGHT IN THE CENTER. :banghead: #UCK, #UCK, #UCK! &@DDA#M IT RICK. WHY WOULD YOU SUGGEST THAT? WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU MAN? (I NEVER READ ANYTHING IN PARENTHESIS. MISSED YOUR WARNING, DA##IT!) I"M SCREWED, SCREWED I TELL YOU. :biting:






The above is a dramatization of what happens when clueless dorks try to act like scientists or engineers. Kids, please leave the experiments to the experts, or you too could kill innocent drivers.

Your friend, TD.

:rotfl:

JBLnsince1959
08-29-2006, 08:02 AM
The above is a dramatization of what happens when clueless dorks try to act like scientists or engineers. Kids, please leave the experiments to the experts, or you too could kill innocent drivers.

Your friend, TD.

:rotfl:


:rotfl:

Yes, it's really embarrssing when things "POP" and "EXPLODE" prematurely and unexpectedly !!!:D

JBLnsince1959
08-29-2006, 08:14 AM
I think even a pair of L890s would benefit from a sub.




From what I've heard they would....I would cross them over at around 60 or so




The intrigue for the 908Ti is being able to have a matched set of drivers from 50, 60, or 80Hz all the way up to 27kHz or higher.



I know what you mean, I've thought about it too, BUT, on second thought there are other options out there and not just JBL's transducers. Maybe some of the Aluminum or composite woofers for fast speed to maybe match the Ti's. Two to three 10" ( or Four 8") AL/composite woofers would do pretty good.

maybe, just maybe you could get a little lower..but at what cost??? besides that dip just below 80 doesn't look to hot....

MJC
08-29-2006, 08:54 PM
10-4 ( thanks techbot!!)

If the PS "deal" had gone thru I was thinking about using two 800's for center channel crossed over to a bass/midbass ( I have two new 2206's sitting around, that are going to be sold if I can't find something to use them for) and see how it sounds. I was wanting a little "more" on the bottom-end ( 80 to 160-200) But wasn't sure where to cross them. Those numbers sure do help.

You NEVER want to use two speakers for a center channel, you know, comb filtering.

MJC
08-29-2006, 09:05 PM
I think even a pair of L890s would benefit from a sub.
For music only, which is what I've been using the 890s for most of a month, I think there is plenty of bass. And remember, I'm used to listening to music with a full L212/B212 system.
Now if you were to use a complete Studio L system(pair of 890s, center and two or four 820s for surrounds), for movies, then yes, you would want to add a sub.

JBLnsince1959
08-30-2006, 06:25 AM
You NEVER want to use two speakers for a center channel, you know, comb filtering.

I want to all the time( and yes, I'm aware of what you are talking about)..BUT it has to be done correctly and is not easy to setup( bigger speakers work best - small speakers are very hard). But that's just me. Most people have their center speakers above or below the screen so when something pans across, the image moves up ( or down) when it reaches the center. IF you can get it setup correctly ( IF now) with two speakers either beside the screen ( or one above and one below) the image is dead center and balanced across all speakers. Also, the feel of the movie experience is..well...bigger...

I first learned about this at the biggest hi-end speaker store we have. They had a HT setup like that with two speakers and I asked Tom the owner about it. I pretty much said the same as you.."Yes, but..:blah: " and he explained the theory and application and I listened. He asked if I wanted to go with them and help setup a new customer ( he got free labor I got trained), anyway if done correctly it sounds really good. The trick is to get two speakers to work as one and balanced with the left and rights, it can be done. But I don't expect people to believe it, nor do I care if they do.



Bottom-line...I like two if done correctly ( it can sound really bad if not), but that's a personal thing and not for everyone.

anyway, we're off topic big time.

JBLnsince1959
08-30-2006, 06:29 AM
For music only, which is what I've been using the 890s for most of a month, I think there is plenty of bass. And remember, I'm used to listening to music with a full L212/B212 system.
.

I tested a couple of CD's with the L890's and only on the very lowest bass did I hear any weakness or drop off ( I wrote it some where back). The CD I noticed it most with was Boz Scaggs' CD - Dig ( very deep and natural bass). BUT that was in the store ( two locations and setups). Could be different in the home.

I was very impressed with the bass from those dual 8's

MJC
08-30-2006, 04:37 PM
I was very impressed with the bass from those dual 8's
I've really been enjoying listening to all my old LPs thru the 890s, but I do need to get a new receiver or amp for them, just haven't decided what brand i want to get.

Zilch
08-30-2006, 06:55 PM
John, could you remove a woofer and get the model number, please?

A pic or two of it would be helpful, as well.

[Zilch wants to play.... ;) ]

MJC
08-30-2006, 07:55 PM
I looked at all the drivers and the numbers I saw didn't remind me of any driver #s of the past. All had a 6 digit # starting with 353. The 8" were 353111-001. The frame was stamped 72522 4.
The Titanium tweeter was 353237-001, and also had 0525.
The dates were from '05 or '06.

Titanium Dome
08-30-2006, 09:22 PM
Well, it's not the same tweeter as in the Performance Series. That's 335663-001.

MJC
08-31-2006, 06:19 PM
Well, at least I know I was looking at the right #, being the PS tweeter and the L series # have the number of digits.
Those numbers are a long way from 066, 045, 035. The studio L tweeter looks like NOTHING, compared to the 066, JBL's most expensive tweeter. But, I do like the sound of Ti.

MJC
09-04-2006, 03:04 PM
Here is a real photo of the L890
18182

Titanium Dome
09-04-2006, 03:17 PM
Thank you for posting that.

You have a PM. ;)

MJC
09-07-2006, 10:29 PM
Well this past week I've upgraded the source to the 890s. I tossed out the old Sony receiver and replaced it with a Denon. And then bought a new Shure M97 cartridge, beats the hell out of the Pickering, which was the only one I could find in '89 and then didn't use it much over the years.

So now I've really improved the sound coming from the 890s
Still trying to decide if I want to spring for B&K phono pre-amp/pre-amp/stereo power amp combo for $2000. That might be over kill for the Studio L 890, thus a waste of cash.

Arv
09-14-2006, 02:09 PM
MJC,
I must be blind:blink: but I just noticed that you're from Nevada. Or maybe I did notice it before but I assumed you were down in Las Vegas but now I recall that we listened to the same 890s at the Sac Fry's. I'm really getting ready to buy the 890s with the LC1 and 820 for surround or maybe just the HTI6Cs. It wouldn't hurt to listen to the 890s one more time to seal the deal. Any chance of an in-home demo from you:) ? You must be in the Reno area right?

Thanks!
Arv

MJC
09-15-2006, 07:00 PM
Arv,
I'm south of Carson City, actually. You're welcome to come over, if you want to make the drive.

oznob
09-26-2006, 02:35 PM
Hi MJC,

I'm going to Sac. this weekend. I just want to confirm the Fry's off I-80 have the Studio L's. Also, I have a good friend in Gardenerville that I visit often. Sounds like you are in that area. Maybe we could hook up the next time I'm there?

Mark

MJC
09-26-2006, 05:29 PM
Hi oznob,
Ya, that Fry's should have them, unless they sold all they had again.
Garnerville is in the same valley, about 8 miles south of here.

oznob
09-26-2006, 10:27 PM
Thanks for the info John. I may be in your area sometime near the end of October, I'll let you know. My buddy is one of those that sold his modest house in South Shore and moved over the Kingsbury Grade to buy a "Tract Mansion" there. I really like that area but my wife would never go for it. She likes the heat here in Redding. :mad: I will be sure and check out Fry's this weekend.

MJC
09-27-2006, 05:13 AM
That's a fair drive from Redding to Sac. And having worked in and around Redding, I know how hot it gets there. Alot hotter there than it gets here.

Arv
10-04-2006, 02:09 PM
John,
Thanks so much for the offer! But I ordered the speakers the same night of my last post, I was going to be out of town for a while so I just ordered them. Also been extremely busy and have not hooked them up yet but I'll let everyone know how it goes hopefully soon.

I got a pair of L890s, a LC1, and 820s for surrounds all in Cherry.

How much break-in those these puppies need? Do I need to run them the whole day? Cranked up? Hopefully not!

Arv

MJC
10-04-2006, 05:21 PM
John,
How much break-in those these puppies need? Do I need to run them the whole day? Cranked up? Hopefully not!

Arv
It took about a week or so to break in my L890s, playing them in the mornings, before leaving for work. Then in the evenings, for a couple of hours.
I haven't heard the LC1, but I did listen to the L820s and thought they would make good surrounds.

Arv
10-04-2006, 06:39 PM
I wanted the LC2 but its size was just not going to work out. So I had to settle with the LC1. I even have to lift my ent center bridge about an inch to fit the LC1, damm TV is too big:D I don't have much space above it.

A friend of mine told me that the highs will be a little bit less bright after the break-in period.

I might end up getting another pair of 890s in the near future and build a pillar to hide them in. Maybe even put a light sconce on top:banghead: . Sad to hide these beauties but this is a requirement for WAF:blah: .

Titanium Dome
10-04-2006, 06:50 PM
Congrats, Arv. Can we see a picture or two?

oznob
10-05-2006, 01:52 PM
I'm off tomorrow, wife's working, perfect day for a :drive: to the Sac. Fry's to check out the Studio L's. Well, after the third call, I finally got someone who's english I could understand. He checked the computer, several times, and asked me, several times, to confirm the brand and model numbers.:banghead: Then he asked me if they were new items.:banghead: :banghead: Finally he said they didn't have any in stock but they had a lot of other speakers like Polk, Bose etc..:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: So, I have the money, want to audition the speakers and, likely buy them but sounds like that ain't gonna happen any time soon soon!:mad: Any suggestions would be appreciated!

MJC
10-05-2006, 06:44 PM
So, I have the money, want to audition the speakers and, likely buy them but sounds like that ain't gonna happen any time soon soon!:mad: Any suggestions would be appreciated!
I wouldn't go by what anyone on the phone tells you. I was told there weren't any, but decided to take the drive to Sac anyway.
When I get there I see the L820s and a center but no L890 or L880s. A sale guy comes in the sound room so I ask if there are any L890s. He looks on the computer and said "yes there are", I ask "why aren't they on display?" So he brings a pair out so I can do an audition.

oznob
10-05-2006, 07:52 PM
Thanks for the encouraging words John. I may take the risk and make the drive? Give me an excuse to go by The Guitar Center and Skip's Music also.

TerryJ
10-06-2006, 09:07 AM
So, I've read a few online reviews of the L890's, and they are generally positive.

I currently don't own any JBL speakers, but I've always had a fascination with them since enjoying some Studio Monitors back in the 80's.

Anyway, I have the opportunity to buy some speakers via the Harman Online website with a heavy corporate discount via the company that I work for now. Enough of a discount, I think, to possibly do a "blind buy" ("deaf buy"?) as I can't seem to find these speakers to audition.

I currently am using a pair of B&W CDM1NTs (bookshelf sized). They aren't that bad, but have never "blown me away". However they were a big step up (quality and, unfortunately, price wise) compared to my old NHT SuperOne speakers.

So... I was wondering if anyone has any first hand experience with the L890s, especially in comparison to some higher end brands of speakers (akin to my B&Ws) and how they compare. I wouldn't mind taking advantage of the discount if the L890's will be a satisfying replacement.

-Terry

Titanium Dome
10-06-2006, 10:18 AM
(snip)
I currently am using a pair of B&W CDM1NTs (bookshelf sized). They aren't that bad, but have never "blown me away". However they were a big step up (quality and, unfortunately, price wise) compared to my old NHT SuperOne speakers.

So... I was wondering if anyone has any first hand experience with the L890s, especially in comparison to some higher end brands of speakers (akin to my B&Ws) and how they compare. I wouldn't mind taking advantage of the discount if the L890's will be a satisfying replacement.

-Terry

I've heard many Bowers and Wilkins, and I've heard the L890s as well, though not in the same room. The B&W product range is a bit confusing, but in general I think the L890s fit in the 600 Series 3 or 700 Series range. IMO, the JBLs sound better overall, but they are not uniformly better.

For example, the DM604 S3 has a very nice tweeter (with waveguide!) and Kevlar® midrange. This combo performs very well, and its midrange is superior, but its highs are not. Neither the 600 Series 3 or 700 Series has the LF extension of the L890, by almost 10Hz.

The 600 Series 3 looks pretty good, and the 700 Series is attractive, if you like the look. The JBL is better looking in person than in a picture, but it runs in third place in this appearance comparison.

If your "deal" is good, then the L890s would be a super buy, especially if you can get the pair for around $1000 or so.

TerryJ
10-06-2006, 11:09 AM
I've heard many Bowers and Wilkins, and I've heard the L890s as well, though not in the same room. The B&W product range is a bit confusing, but in general I think the L890s fit in the 600 Series 3 or 700 Series range. IMO, the JBLs sound better overall, but they are not uniformly better.

For example, the DM604 S3 has a very nice tweeter (with waveguide!) and Kevlar® midrange. This combo performs very well, and its midrange is superior, but its highs are not. Neither the 600 Series 3 or 700 Series has the LF extension of the L890, by almost 10Hz.

The 600 Series 3 looks pretty good, and the 700 Series is attractive, if you like the look. The JBL is better looking in person than in a picture, but it runs in third place in this appearance comparison.

If your "deal" is good, then the L890s would be a super buy, especially if you can get the pair for around $1000 or so.
Thanks for the info. Yeah, my current speakers (CDM line) were the predecessor to the current 700 series. They are better than what I've had before, but I have never... "loved" them, if you know what I mean. Sometimes it's hard to describe (or impossible to describe, in a way) what combination of attributes makes you love a speaker. You just know when you hear it (and hear it for a while... in your home.)

They aren't cheap speakers, and they were reviewed quite well, too. (Which, first, lead me to ask if the Studio Ls were even in the B&W's league. Sounds like they are.)

Anyway, I suppose the corporate discount I can get is a "super buy" because I can get a pair of the L890s (prior to tax/shipping) for $700. It seemed like a really great deal to me, but, not having heard the speakers, that would be an assumption. (If they don't sound great... then $700 is overpriced!)

I am very tempted to pick up a pair!

-Terry

Arv
10-06-2006, 03:14 PM
Congrats, Arv. Can we see a picture or two?

I'll take the pics this weekend and post them! I'm glad I got the cherry "fake" wood :) . They look really good, unless you really know wood it will fool you the wood graining and color is pretty realistic.

TerryJ - I for one had NHTs but they were really getting old (though still perfectly good) the ones I had are soft domed so the L890s are a bit bright for me but I think any metal dome would be the same. Its hard to find soft domed spkrs nowadays. When I auditioned the 890s I also listened to some Polks in the same price range(though these might not be considered higher end speakers :p ) and I thought the 890s were better (clarity and bass). For the price that you're getting them I think you can't go wrong since a review on S&V said they were already really good for their price range so if they were 50% off then it makes them an even better deal! Can't you go to a Fry's or Tweeter's?, it's best to listen to them first and not take the word of anyone but if you can't then go for it and if you don't like them sell em and I'm sure someone will buy them from you at that price!

MJC
10-06-2006, 04:36 PM
Anyway, I suppose the corporate discount I can get is a "super buy" because I can get a pair of the L890s (prior to tax/shipping) for $700. It seemed like a really great deal to me, but, not having heard the speakers, that would be an assumption. (If they don't sound great... then $700 is overpriced!)

I am very tempted to pick up a pair!

-Terry
I'd say that's a super buy. I paid $699/ea. And they're worth every bit of that price. The L890's entire range is really good. If you have never heard a Ti tweeter, well lets say its a treat. As will all JBLs they are very dynamic and the bass you'll get from twin 8" woofers is amazing.

Yesterday morning I listened to a LP I hadn't heard in years. It was Melanie's(a French singer) Lay Down(Candles in the Rain). I remembered her voice as being fairly high pitched. But I didn't remember how deep the bass got on that cut, it was just amazing thru the L890s.

While I work on replacing the veneer on the main L212s(JBL's top of the line in '77) in the HT I going to but the L890s in their place. Something I haven't done since the first week I had the L890s. Which at that time they weren't broke in and I could tell that the L890's soundstage wasn't as good as the L212's. So now I'll be able to hear if that has changed. The room the L890s are in now(connected to a turntable) is completely different.

oznob
10-06-2006, 07:23 PM
I wouldn't go by what anyone on the phone tells you. I was told there weren't any, but decided to take the drive to Sac anyway.
When I get there I see the L820s and a center but no L890 or L880s. A sale guy comes in the sound room so I ask if there are any L890s. He looks on the computer and said "yes there are", I ask "why aren't they on display?" So he brings a pair out so I can do an audition.

Wow, great advice John! I decided to drive to Sac. and see what they had. In the middle audio room they had a pair of L-890's on display. So much for not having any in stock! They also had a pair of 820's on the shelf. I switched back and fourth between the two sans a sub. The switching box on the back wall was pretty easy to figure out as well as the Onkyo AVR powering it all. I was very impressed even though the test material was limited. Unfortunately, I thought I had my travel CD's in my truck. Dummy me, I took them out last week when I had it serviced and forgot to put them back. :banghead:

I finally talked to a sales guy. He checked and found the display speakers were the only pair. They were $699 each. Upon close inspection, I found a 2" suface scratch on one side, a slighly broken grill and a dent in one of the tweeters.:banghead: He told me he could knock 10% off if I wanted the display models, uh, no. I then noticed that one of the tweeters on the 820 was perfect. I said I would buy them at 20% off if he would let me swap the tweeters. He left for a while and came back with a set of allen wrenches and left again. I guess that was the green light to swap the tweeters, so, I did. He then came back and said he couldn't find the boxes, owners manual or spikes. The bottom line is, I got 25% off and bought them. A little super glue on the grill and they are good to go. The only thing I need to know is the thread size on the spikes. I have some cones with M6 posts but the 890's are bigger. Any clue as to the size of the threads? Anyway, they sound awesome as is but I know they will just get better! Thanks again John for the encouragement!

Mark

Titanium Dome
10-06-2006, 09:27 PM
Woo-hoo for you! Another new JBL owner. That's totally a score! :applaud:

oznob
10-06-2006, 10:55 PM
Thanks Ti, they are a great match for my HK 3480! The 820's sounded very good also. If I decide to go to a home theater system, they would certainly be at the top of my list for surround duty. I would have liked to compare them to the L880. I do have a good compact sub but I figured "a bird in the hand....." As I think you pointed out, they look much better in person than in the pictures on JBL's web site. Even the black finish with the rounded corners and silver accents look very nice. The great thing about black is you can hide the flaws pretty easy. A little black Kiwi shoe polish can work wonders! Going to really give them a workout tomorrow. I don't know if I will be able to load pictures as we still have dial-Up. Sometimes it sucks living in a smaller town!

JBLnsince1959
10-07-2006, 05:31 AM
I The bottom line is, I got 25% off and bought them. Mark

Congrads on the score:applaud: , yes, they look better than the pictures and they sound amazing for the price. JBL did a very good job on those. From what MJC says they just get better with time...

If I didn't have so much I'll get a pair..Makes you wonder what the 260's sound like.

enjoy...

MJC
10-07-2006, 07:06 AM
The bottom line is, I got 25% off and bought them. Thanks again John for the encouragement!
Mark
Good going, anytime a person buy display units it should be 25% off. Back in the '70s, when JBLs were never discounted, I got 25% off when I bought the display L212s.

So now that is at least the second time that the Sac Frys has sold out all their L890 stock, including the displays, in four months. And there is a good reason they keep selling all their L890 stock. The L890s are by far the best speaker JBL has had in years of all the speakers that would be considered below the Performance Series.

When I was there, they only had the L890s connected to a Sony receiver's FM out. Of coarse, as I've said before, they didn't even have them on display until I asked, as they had already sold them all and just got a new shipment a day or two before I got there.

oznob
10-07-2006, 09:43 AM
http://www.oregondv.com/

The link above is to Brass and Granite Audio in Salem Oregon. A couple of guys who started their business in a garage and have done pretty well. I have no affiliation but have done business with them in the past and they treated me right! I shot them an e-mail to see if they know the thread size. Their list says most JBL's are M6, 6mm, but the 890's are larger.

I have to hand it to Fry's, they certainly don't have enough "knoledgeable" staff but they treated great! When I asked if I could swap the tweeter I was expecting a resounding NO, but was not the case. I fell asleep listening to them last night. Got Mike Bloomfield and Al Kooper on right now, awesome!

MJC
10-08-2006, 11:04 AM
I was listening to the SACD version of the 1812 Overture, in 2 channel, with the L890s in the main room, w/o any subs. They did a good job of reproducing the canons, of coarse, not to the db level of the subs. Just a "slight difference of power", 220wpc compared to 800wpc. The overall sacd recording came across very well thru the L890s.

I looked in the manual but it didn't say what size the spike threads are.
Your experience in buying the displays reminds me of when I bought the displays in '79. No boxes, no manual. Why can't these clowns at least keep the manuals in a file cabinet.:banghead:
And Frys sales staff could use a lesson or two on audio as could the guys at Magnolia HT, here.

oznob
10-08-2006, 05:37 PM
I was listening to the SACD version of the 1812 Overture, in 2 channel, with the L890s in the main room, w/o any subs. They did a good job of reproducing the canons, of coarse, not to the db level of the subs. Just a "slight difference of power", 220wpc compared to 800wpc. The overall sacd recording came across very well thru the L890s.

I looked in the manual but it didn't say what size the spike threads are.
Your experience in buying the displays reminds me of when I bought the displays in '79. No boxes, no manual. Why can't these clowns at least keep the manuals in a file cabinet.:banghead:
And Frys sales staff could use a lesson or two on audio as could the guys at Magnolia HT, here.

Many years ago, around 1978 or so, I went to a stereo store in Sacramento, either Stereo Showcase or Turntables Unlimited, anyway, that was the first time I heard the L300's. They were using big SAE mono blocks and a direct disc recording of the 1812 Overture with cannon. I think it was The London Philharmonic Orchestra. Needless to say, when the cannons went off the clip lights on the SAE's were glowing and the L300's were booming not missing a beat! The salesman accidentally switched over to some Infinity's and, when the cannons went off again, the woofers crackled and sizzled a bit then shut down, AWESOME! I have been hooked on JBL's ever since. One of my fondest JBL memories.

The spikes must be larger than a M6, smaller than an M8 and larger than a 1/4". Couldn't find a 3/8 or 5/16 bolt to try so it maybe one of those. To my knowledge, those are the common thread sizes unless they used something off the wall.

BMWCCA
10-08-2006, 06:19 PM
I know nothing about these speakers or even this thread but in Googling L890 JBL I came up with this ad from one of my favorite online merchants:
Buy.com (http://www.buy.com/prod/JBL_8_4_WAY_TOWER_BLACK/q/loc/273/202988555.html). They show the L890BK for $383.99 plus shipping but say: "Very few left In Stock! Order soon -- product may sell out." and do not show a photo. Worth a try if I understand the street price is $699 each? Anyway, thought I'd pass it along. Let me know if it really is the deal I'm thinking it might be. Not that I have any money or room to want to get a pair for myself. Good luck!:dont-know

Titanium Dome
10-08-2006, 11:15 PM
And most of the other members of the Studio L Series are there if you look. Also, the old HT Series is represented. (It is currently rebadged as the Synthesis HT line, so JBL must be dumping the older badged models.) :dont-know

oznob
10-09-2006, 10:29 PM
I really "poured the coals" to the 890's this weekend and I have to say I am very impressed! I think Tidome pointed out that the supertweeter really complements the tweeter when it comes to upper octave articulation, I concur. Being a garage drummer, accurate percussion reproduction is very important to me. While the 890's did not give the slam of the kick drum like the 4430's, the cymbal sticking and crashes were dead on! I left the sub off most of the time and found the 890's quite capable of being full range. That said, on more bass heavy music, the sub did compliment them quite well. With vocals, the 890's were quite capable of giving the feel of the performance without much coloration. Most of my listening these days is acoustic jazz, light blues, and mellow rock but, sometimes, you just have to crank the Zep loud and the 890's will do loud! I ordered some 1.5" cone spikes for them which will hopefully anchor them down better and get them off the floor. Oh, after a lot of experimentation, and finally being able to get on JBL's web site, the thread size is 5/16", not 8mm. M8 is just a bit too big, on my pair at least. So far, I am very happy with my new speakers!:D I want to again thank MJC for giving me the push to make the :drive:!

johnaec
10-10-2006, 05:40 AM
'Sounds like you finally found something that makes both you and the missus happy? :)

John

oznob
10-10-2006, 08:29 AM
'Sounds like you finally found something that makes both you and the missus happy? :)

John

I wouldn't define her as happy but she is accepting the fact that we need to make compromises. If I had my way, I would still have the 250ti's and the 4430's and the L112's and the S312's and the L7's and the L65's and.................

MJC
10-11-2006, 05:33 AM
I wouldn't define her as happy but she is accepting the fact that we need to make compromises. If I had my way, I would still have the 250ti's and the 4430's and the L112's and the S312's and the L7's and the L65's and.................
I've still have every JBL I ever bought.

MJC
10-11-2006, 06:39 PM
I really "poured the coals" to the 890's
While the 890's did not give the slam of the kick drum like the 4430's, the cymbal sticking and crashes were dead on! I left the sub off most of the time and found the 890's quite capable of being full range. That said, on more bass heavy music, the sub did compliment them quite well. With vocals, the 890's were quite capable of giving the feel of the performance without much coloration.
want to again thank MJC for giving me the push to make the :drive:!
First of all you're more than welcome.
As with all speakers, how they perform largely depends on what you feed them. When I have the L890s connected to the Denon stereo receiver(only 85w) I get good bass from LPs. But now that they're connected to the Parasound amp(220w) in the main room (while I re-veneer the L212s, sub1500s) they can flat kick ass, when it comes to producing deep, loud bass.

oznob
10-20-2006, 10:26 PM
Had the day off, wife's at work, so I decided to flex the woofers a bit. I drug out the old Hafler PT500, throwdown PA amp, to give the L890's a workout. The Hafler's fan sounds like a helicopter so I needed some juice to drown it out. While the Hafler is not the most articulate piece of audio equipment, at 250+ a side at 8 ohms, it will kick some low end butt! I got the glasses and knick knacks in the curio cabinet rattleing cranking Victor Wooten's bass licks! Pushed them pretty hard without any sense they were at their limit, clean, clear and loud with most stuff! May have bottomed out a bit on Jennifer Warnes's "Way Down Deep" track but nothing major. I'm going to buy an NAD C372 Integrated and probably a power amp to bi-amp them. I really want to lose the sub-woofer. Haven't found one yet that I can dial into my room. I believe I can be very happy with the 890's giving the woofers some real power. I guess time will tell.

MJC
10-21-2006, 04:26 PM
Ya, 220~250w gives plently of kick for the 890s. Not as much as the 15" subs w/800w, but still very good.

diabag
11-12-2006, 01:58 PM
I am looking to buy a 2.1 speaker system and was looking for info about the JBL studio L series. Hopefully someone on this forum can give me some feedback.

I am not much of an audiophile, but I currently own the JBL S38II bookshelf speakers, the JBL S120PII subwoofer, and a Harman Kardon HK3475 stereo receiver. I use the speakers for both movies and music and have been quite pleased with the sound quality/power/value of my little system.

My brother is about to head off to college and I was looking to buy a similar setup for him. Price is a big consideration for me, so I am limited in my options. I am planning on purchasing another S120PII subwoofer and a HK3480 stereo receiver. My question is, what speakers should I buy? I was mainly looking at the L820 or L830 bookshelf speakers since I can't afford the L880 or L890 floorstanding speakers. The L820 seem nice because they are have a 4 inch mid range but I don't know what to think about the sealed enclosure/shallow depth of them. The L830 have a port and normal depth, but they lack a midrange. I was able to listen to my S38II speakers before I bought them, but I am unable to listen to any of the new studio L series because I can't find a store that carries them.

It seems that many people posting here have heard the studio L series. So, could anyone make a recommendation on what would complement a 2.1 system best between the L820 and L830 models? Any information I could get would be very much appreciated. If anyone has general recommendations as to what speakers/subs/receivers to buy for a 2.1 system with a lot of quality/value I would be very interested to hear them. Thanks.

MJC
11-12-2006, 03:42 PM
I have a pair of the L890s and have listened to the L820s. I thought, while listening to the 820s, that with a sub, they would be a good speaker for either mains(in a small system/room) or surround use.
Fry's Elelctronics is where I auditioned the 890s and 820s. They didn't have the 810s or 830s.
I don't know how close this is to you.
AUDIO VIDEO INTERIORS
2753-L MEDINA ROAD
MEDINA OH, 44256
Phone: (330) 723-6696
Also two in TN and one in Detroit

oznob
11-13-2006, 09:00 PM
I also have a pair of 890's and I'm quite impressed with their performance. I currently have them in a strictly two channel system. I recently got rid of my subwoofer and actually like the sound of the 890's better without it. The sub tended to muddy and over power the bass notes. Keep in mind I almost exclusively use them for music, not movies. The low end is tight and accurate. The tweeter and super-tweeter seem to blend the high frequencies very well. The low mids may be a bit lacking but that is a minor detail. They also present a very wide soundstage. The 890's are just fun to listen to and do most things right and very little wrong. All in all I would highly recommend them!:yes:

Thom
11-13-2006, 09:11 PM
Maybe it's like McIntosh showing there speakers with expensive wire. I'm not quite sure why I said maybe. Almost guaranteed head of marketing makes more than head of engineering and gets a better parking place too.

oznob
11-13-2006, 10:00 PM
[QUOTE=Thom;133949]Maybe it's like McIntosh showing there speakers with expensive wire. I'm not quite sure why I said maybe. Almost guaranteed head of marketing makes more than head of engineering and gets a better parking place too.[/QUO

:confused:

MJC
11-14-2006, 05:20 PM
I also have a pair of 890's and I'm quite impressed with their performance. I currently have them in a strictly two channel system. I recently got rid of my subwoofer and actually like the sound of the 890's better without it. :yes:
I've used my 890s in both rooms, stereo and Ht. The bass for music is great w/o a sub. And overall a good soundstage, tho not deep.
When I had them in the HT, connected to a 220wpc amp, running full range, the bass was outstanding. Not as good as the pair of sub1500s w/800 to each, but still very impressive.
But for diabag's needs, his brother's really, the 820s w/sub would be good.

diabag
11-14-2006, 05:58 PM
Thanks a lot for responding to my post. I was prepared to get the L820s but just needed a bit of reassurance that they would sound as good as my old studio S38IIs (hopefully better). I am kind of surprised and disappointed at the lack of information/reviews of the new studio L series available on the web, as I really like the sound of the old studio series and was excited to see that they added a true center speaker. I really am not sure why more stores aren't carrying them.

I think that the L890s would be the best, possibly without a subwoofer, but I just can't find them for nearly cheap enough. Also, smaller speakers are more practical considering you don't always know how much room you will have in a college living situation. Maybe when I move out of my apartment and into a larger place I'll get the full studio L surround set up for myself.:)

Thanks again for the input guys.

MJC
11-14-2006, 07:08 PM
Thanks a lot for responding to my post. I was prepared to get the L820s but just needed a bit of reassurance that they would sound as good as my old studio S38IIs (hopefully better). I am kind of surprised and disappointed at the lack of information/reviews of the new studio L series available on the web.
To my hearing the entire Studio L series is much better than the old Studio series.
So far I've seen 4 reviews of the studio L series. One on the 880s, one on the 820s, I think it was, and one on the 890s and another on a complete HT setup.
Here is one of them.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/1214/jbl-studio-l-series-home-theater-speaker-system.html

Titanium Dome
11-14-2006, 10:35 PM
Of course, the reviews are useful, and the firsthand reports here are even more useful, but the best thing is always your own ears in your own space.

If possible, buy from a dealer that allows returns.

MJC
11-15-2006, 05:03 PM
Of course, the reviews are useful, and the firsthand reports here are even more useful, but the best thing is always your own ears in your own space.

If possible, buy from a dealer that allows returns.
Yep, that's what I did and then decided to keep 'em.
But I still like my diy HT at least as much.

Murph
11-24-2006, 06:59 AM
Hello! First post here. I have been looking at the JBL Studio L series and was able to listen to them at our local Tweeter the other day - they sound very nice. In reading many of the online reviews, I came across a review of the Revel Concerta F12 - very similar configuration, size, price point and parent company (Harmon). Is this a clone or are there specific differences? Has anyone here heard the F-12's or compared the Revel F-12 with the JBL L890? Thanks!

MJC
11-24-2006, 08:47 AM
Hello and welcome to the forum. Although I've never heard the Revels, I'd have to say they are a different speaker altogether.
First, the Revels are a 3-way design and the L890s are a 4-way design, having two tweeters.
Second, the Revel's drivers are a Organic Ceramic Composite, where as the Studio L's are PolyPlas.
I have the 890s and have had them connected to a stereo receiver only having 85wpc and also in my HT with 220wpc. They sound very good in either setup. Although with 220w the twin 8" woofers can really give sub woofers a run for the money, for movies.
I think the L890s have a really nice sound over the entire audio range, with crystal clear highs and midrange and a strong bass.

oznob
11-25-2006, 10:19 PM
Hello and welcome to the forum. Although I've never heard the Revels, I'd have to say they are a different speaker altogether.
First, the Revels are a 3-way design and the L890s are a 4-way design, having two tweeters.
Second, the Revel's drivers are a Organic Ceramic Composite, where as the Studio L's are PolyPlas.
I have the 890s and have had them connected to a stereo receiver only having 85wpc and also in my HT with 220wpc. They sound very good in either setup. Although with 220w the twin 8" woofers can really give sub woofers a run for the money, for movies.
I think the L890s have a really nice sound over the entire audio range, with crystal clear highs and midrange and a strong bass.

I too have L890's and am in full agreement with MJC's opinion. A very solid performer and one of the best values out there for a new full range speaker. I am running mine with an NAD C372 150 watt integrated amp and they sound great top to bottom! I highly recommend them!

:yes:

MJC
12-28-2006, 12:25 PM
First time I've really looked at the specs for this sub:
Bass Driver 12" (300mm) PolyPlas™cones with rubber surround, cast-aluminum chassis, HeatScape™ motor structure, Symmetrical Field Geometry™ (SFG™), oversized fiberglass voice coil, magnetic shorting ring

Fiberglass voice coil?
I just took a look @ the specs, the voice coil in the L890s is Dupont's Kapton

aht3
01-04-2007, 01:05 PM
Hello all. Just to be upfront, I am going for a bit of overkill. I am really looking for a fuul range sound in my office. I watch a lot of TV, movies and play game on 360. My room is 12'X11' with a 10' cieling. I have a Pioneer Elite 84 and want to put a good set of speakers on it to "jam jam jam". This thread has been interesting and I am ready to bite.

Anyway, I ran across the 890s and thought they would be a great fit. I will be using the LC2 for my center and the 820s for rears. I have a great set of surround speakers with side firing 6" drivers and a front firing tweeter. I'll keep them if the get along with the JBL's I only plan to bi wire the mains and center. Does anyone have I am also looking at getting a sub. I looked at the 8400 but that might be a bit too much. Does the 8400 have an auto standby? it does not state either way on the JBL site. The JBL S120P II is still available. Does anyone have any thoughts on it or have any other suggestions? This will round out my 7.1 system. I know my room is small but this is my little getaway. Any thoughts? I would like any and all the help I can get. One other question. Do I need 820's for surrounds and rears or will the 810/830 do the job. the 820's actually loook like potential stand ins for mains but it might be fun to have them anyway.


Thanks,

Andrew

MJC
01-05-2007, 06:06 AM
Depending on how many watts the Pioneer Elite 84 puts out, you'll probably not need a sub with the L890s. When I had my pair in my 3100cuft HT I was using them w/o any subs. They were connected to a 220wpc amp. They would put many subs to shame. So I suggest trying them w/o a sub first, being your room is only 11x12.
As far as the 8400 sub, the Fry's, where I auditioned the L890s, didn't have the sub, at least not in the same room.

aht3
01-05-2007, 06:50 AM
ok and thanks. the eliete 84 is 140 WPC and is a high current amp.

the dealer I just found with a really sweet price has just taken them off of their site due to "franchising" issues. that's really sad because I found a pair of the beech 890s for 472/ea.:(. Anyway, I am just thankfue to even be able to look at new speakers. If I do not get the lseries, do you have any suggestions for towers in the 400-600 range?


Thanks,

kingjames
01-05-2007, 07:03 AM
The L7's would be a good choice in that price range;)