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jim henderson
09-03-2003, 06:56 PM
Who points their front LR speakers directly at the center listening position, forming an approx. 45 degree angle between the LR speakers?

Who avoids toe-in all together, as this site recommends http://www.geocities.com/p_iturra/Placement.html ?

Who compromises and points the LR speakers at the respective ends of the couch?

4313B
09-03-2003, 07:00 PM
"Who compromises and points the LR speakers at the respective ends of the couch?"

:wave:

JonFairhurst
09-03-2003, 07:23 PM
Me too... Only I've got more of a project studio setup. There is no couch. I run some toe in, but not enough to point directly at my noggin.

boputnam
09-03-2003, 07:45 PM
You can get a feel for my approach, here: 4345 Cabinet Plans - Link (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=314) That is, sans the 4313B's and when enveloping the LCD TV.

Robh3606
09-03-2003, 08:33 PM
I got all three fronts either toed or angled down so I am close to being on axis. Not the extreme 45 degrees but more than a nudge towards the ends of the couch.

Rob :)

speakerdave
09-03-2003, 10:23 PM
After concluding I was not going to get much in the way of imaging with my L65a pair I swung them in to cross in front of the two-seat listening position my wife and I share. This way the rising on-axis response is avoided and sitting in the power/dispersion field seems to give the smoothest overall response and widest listening zone.

They image in a general way. The instrument positions of small acoustic jazz groups of the mid to late fifties are easily discernible although the mixes (I think) tend to blear the lead soloists. The instrument and voice groups in orchestras and choirs are nicely discernible and chamber groups fairly well defined--the precision of the speakers gives the individual instruments and voices distinct presence. But nothing near holographic.

By the way, over time the 122a woofers in these enclosures have loosened up (new surrounds when I bought them) and the balance is much better. The upper bass/lower midrange still seems reticent, but that will be remedied by going to a four-way system--but I really like these speakers. I vertical stack of the drivers will probably improve the imaging as well.

I have been following the discussions on this forum about large-format monitors, the various possibilities for drivers, etc., and I want to express my gratitude for the great quantities of useful information you all have been offering. My garage is filling with enough stuff to make two sets of speakers. I've decided I'm not in a hurry and want to enjoy this process--which I am! Meanwhile all I'm doing with these speakers is listening to music.

Thanks,

David

DavidF
09-03-2003, 10:24 PM
That article seems way too generalized for “most” situations. The toe-in is going to be a function of the speakers response characteristics and your room. The end of the discussion is going to be how you feel the placement works best for you. Anyone remember the Beveridge models from the 70s/80s? These wonderful (but woefully dynamically limited) speakers worked best nearly facing each other. I can contribute my own generalization… the closer you have to have the speakers to the side walls, the more you want to toe-in to minimize destructive reflections off of the side walls. If you have horns, then some other considerations have to be made (look down them throats!).

DavidF

Tom Loizeaux
09-04-2003, 03:26 PM
I toe in my studio monitors to be directly facing me when I sit in my "sweet spot" chair. I feel that's the only way to get proper balance at all frequencies.

Tom

Doctor_Electron
09-06-2003, 11:44 PM
I set the cabinets out 3 feet or so from the back wall, two feet or so from the side walls, then adjust the "toe" for best soundstage (using known reference music.
Getting your cabinets away from the rear & side walls is the best sonic improvement you can make...the more the walls influence the sound, ~ The MORE the walls INFLUENCE the sound.
Experiment!

Mr. Widget
09-12-2003, 12:18 PM
For my large 4355 clones I have found that fully toed in works exceptionally well. Here is a layout of my room.

MJC
08-06-2004, 08:55 AM
With my original L212s I had some toe-in. And when I setup the 5 channel system I tried the mains at 45*.
But after building two mirror imaged cabinets for the main L/R the best position is to have the speakers pointing straight out. This gives me a full soundstage, more so than with the original symetrical cabinets. Toe-in collapses the soundstage with mirror image.
5 channel music sounds great, but if I run stereo music thru the processor, to create prologic 3 channel front, the soundstage collapses.

Chas
08-06-2004, 09:13 AM
Does this qualify?

boputnam
08-06-2004, 09:31 AM
:rotfl:

Alex Lancaster
08-06-2004, 09:49 AM
That´s toe out, and You are going to wear the big ones real quick.

jbl
08-06-2004, 11:32 AM
Some degree of toe in will be necessary for any system with high frequency extension. The higher the frequency, the shorter the wave length. ("Beaming effect".) That's unavoidable.

Ron

MJC
08-06-2004, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by jbl
Some degree of toe in will be necessary for any system with high frequency extension. The higher the frequency, the shorter the wave length. ("Beaming effect".) That's unavoidable.

Ron
True, the higher the frequency the narrower the beam.
But it depends on how good the speakers are at producing a full soundstage. Some speakers do a really bad job. With mirrored L212s I get instruments right where they should be, and a strong, precise "center channel". Which is much better than the original L212s toed-in or not.
If the mirrored L212s are toed-in then the soundstage collapses to a certain extent. I get a more airy,open high end with the new boxes than I used to get.:)

Ian Mackenzie
08-06-2004, 12:50 PM
I find exact symmetry is as important as anything else...and the distance between the enclosures.

Ian

Mr. Widget
08-07-2004, 01:04 AM
MJC,

I think the improvement in your mirror imaged L212s comes from the fact that moving the drivers closer to one side of the baffle fixes one of two problems in JBL's original design. Placing a dome tweeter on such a wide baffle will have drastic consequences on the imaging. In my opinion JBL made two fundamental mistakes in the design of the L212. The first is having such a wide baffle and second, placing the drivers in a row centered on it. If they had placed the drivers in small sub enclosures behind the grill in a manner similar to the Dahlquist DQ-10 but maintained the vertical alignment, I bet the system would be an imaging stunner.

I do think your speakers look very nice in your avatar, could you post a larger image?

As for toe in... I think it is system and room dependent. I have some systems with full toe in and others with absolutely none.

Ian,

I completely concur with you on the spacing and symmetry.

Widget

Ian Mackenzie
08-07-2004, 02:16 AM
This is perhaps why the 4344/4345 appear to have superior imaging to the earlier multiway monitors.

Ian

Mr. Widget
08-07-2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
This is perhaps why the 4344/4345 appear to have superior imaging to the earlier multiway monitors.

Ian

With a horn loaded system it isn't the same as a dome and cone system with their inherent wide dispersion. Horns have much less of the baffle diffraction issues... they have other issues, but that is for another thread.

I do think the off setting of the two cone drivers in the 4344/45 is useful, but I would have placed all of the additional drivers in a vertical line. While the offset 2405 probably does little harm, I would expect placing it above the 2421 would have been acoustically superior. My guess it's placement was a compromise since those speakers are already quite tall.

Widget

Ian Mackenzie
08-07-2004, 03:05 PM
Yeah could be,

But the unequal baffle distance by design is superior to everything I have ready.

Anyway, only slight toe in seems to work well for me. But we are not talking apple with the L65a

Ian

whej4312
08-07-2004, 05:49 PM
I am not sure about toeing horns, for the simple reason I've never had a pair of horns in the living room to toe in. I still prefer a more traditional approach to
design, in loudpeakers. I have my 4312's toed in about 15 to 20 degrees and 24.5 inches off the ground. That way they have a smoother transition between woofer and mid. No suckout. Plus as nearfield as they are; ( 3ft7" to ear) they become very critical on placement. But the fun factor is in the depth of soundstage I do get. It's like having a really big pair of Headphones!! I think that's what the 4300 series cabinets were designed for, right? Nearfield Monitoring?:banana:

whej4312
08-07-2004, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by MJC
True, the higher the frequency the narrower the beam.
But it depends on how good the speakers are at producing a full soundstage. Some speakers do a really bad job. With mirrored L212s I get instruments right where they should be, and a strong, precise "center channel". Which is much better than the original L212s toed-in or not.
If the mirrored L212s are toed-in then the soundstage collapses to a certain extent. I get a more airy,open high end with the new boxes than I used to get.:)
MJC, have you ever tried rock wool in the grills to take up the space on the outer edges of the 212's?
I did that for a guy years ago, they were less tempermental on toeing and greatly improves lateral resolution. I always liked the sound of the 212 but thought that cabinet could use a little damping or bracing or both.Did you do this to yours? Just a few thoughst:D

Alex Lancaster
08-07-2004, 06:48 PM
"I think that's what the 4300 series cabinets were designed for, right? Nearfield Monitoring?"

Whej:

I guess the 431x and maybe 432x, but imagine a 4355 at 4´!!

Alex.

whitese
08-08-2004, 08:13 AM
I have some toe-in but meeting at my head...a bt less....I am also tilting them a bit,,,,but being L-96's on tall stands...it makes me nervouso!!!

Robh3606
08-08-2004, 10:01 AM
"I guess the 431x and maybe 432x, but imagine a 4355 at 4´!! '

The 4350's have a reccomended minimum distance of 8 feet in the set-up manual. 4300/4400?? are midfields the 4200 are near field for sure.

Rob:)