Hurricane Katrina

[Don McRitchie]

I truly hope this is an overstatement. To our members from this area (actually everyone in the area for that matter), my sincerest wishes that you are able to get out of harm's way and ride out this potential catastrophe safe and sound.

http://weather.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/iwszone?Sites=:laz069

EXTREMELY DANGEROUS HURRICANE KATRINA CONTINUES TO APPROACH THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER DELTA

DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED

MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER. AT LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL...LEAVING THOSE HOMES SEVERELY DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.

THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL. PARTIAL TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED. ALL WOOD FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED. CONCRETE BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE...INCLUDING SOME WALL AND ROOF FAILURE.

HIGH RISE OFFICE AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL SWAY DANGEROUSLY...A FEW TO THE POINT OF TOTAL COLLAPSE. ALL WINDOWS WILL BLOW OUT.

AIRBORNE DEBRIS WILL BE WIDESPREAD...AND MAY INCLUDE HEAVY ITEMS SUCH AS HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES AND EVEN LIGHT VEHICLES. SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES AND LIGHT TRUCKS WILL BE MOVED. THE BLOWN DEBRIS WILL CREATE ADDITIONAL DESTRUCTION. PERSONS...PETS...AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK.

POWER OUTAGES WILL LAST FOR WEEKS...AS MOST POWER POLES WILL BE DOWN AND TRANSFORMERS DESTROYED. WATER SHORTAGES WILL MAKE HUMAN SUFFERING INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF NATIVE TREES WILL BE SNAPPED OR UPROOTED. ONLY THE HEARTIEST WILL REMAIN STANDING...BUT BE TOTALLY DEFOLIATED. FEW CROPS WILL REMAIN. LIVESTOCK LEFT EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL BE KILLED.

[Titanium Dome]

If anyone is in the path of Katrina and reading this, shut down and get out. Almost everything can be replaced:

Cars
Houses
Businesses
Trees
Pets
Furniture
Appliances
Boats
Even JBLs

BUT YOU CANNOT BE REPLACED. Take your loved ones, your precious keepsakes (pictures, documents, small heirlooms) and get out. :drive:

If you can't drive, go to the designated shelter.

We need you whole and safe.

We'll pray for your safety, because otherwise this is too big to comprehend.

[duaneage]

Mother Nature is about to reclaim the Mississippi Delta.

I was in Biloxi for Elaina in 1985. That was a Cat 3 and we had no power for a week. Water was three feet deep on the beach for a day. Fresh water was harder to find than anything else. And they didn't have all of those casinos moored to the shore at the time.
I saw Andrew in 1992 in Florida, it stripped the houses right off at the foundations and destroyed most of Kendall and Florida City.


They are in deep $#it for sure

[scott fitlin]

I was in Miami at that time, a DJ on South Bch, at the Warsaw Ballroom on Collins av.

I went to Hialeah, and sheltered at my bosses house, while the other DJ from the club went to his mothers house in Kendall. Before we left the club, after securing it as best we could, David said come to my moms house, we will be ok there!

Another freind and I got down to Sth Miami the next day by jeep, I mean the destruction was like nothing Ive ever seen in my life! Roofs completely torn off all the houses, many house completely collapsed. All the trees on the drive into Coral Gables destroyed! Whole neighborhoods gone!

I remember staying at my apartment on Miami Bch to protect everything I had there, and it was a week with no water, or electric. We would travel by car to Ft Lauderdale to buy food, and get ice and bottled water, the most precious of commodities!





I hope New Orleans fares better than we did in 1992.

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Any members in the area, we wish you well.

I have a feeling this is going to be a devastating storm.

Ken

[edgewound]

Good luck to all in the Gulf coast...our prayers and thoughts are with you.

[mikebake]

Not so sure that the dire prediction above is going to come true now.............

[Robh3606]

Go up on CNN unfortunately it's bad and worst isn't there yet. Major structural damage in the city and you see daylight through the roof of the Super Dome. I hope those people inside stay safe when the worst comes. Everyone is focused on New Orleans but they are not on the bad side of the storm. Mississipi is going to get hit even worse. I can't imagine what it is like. Living on Long Island I have been through several of them. Nothing like that monster. Even a Cat 1 is something you have to see to believe just how powerful they are. With Gloria a fast moving 1 or 2 you could hear tree's snaping like firecrackers in the gusts. This thing I don't even want to think about.

Rob:(

[louped garouv]

new orleans mayor gives status of new orleans area....

http://www.wwltv.com/perl/common/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=www.wwltv.com/082905mayor.wmv


martial law has been declared in new orleans since the status report....

not looking good :(

[Wardsweb]

I lived in Biloxi during Camile and this one is worse. I haven't been able to get in contact with my sister who still lives there. No power, no phone, no cell service, no water...it's bad, very bad. It's sad to see pictures of places I use to hang out leveled to the ground. It's like loosing a part of your childhood.

[duaneage]

A few days after Elena in 1985 things kinda got back to normal in Biloxi. The water receded, trees were cut off houses, the lights came back on and we had potable water. I-90 was dry in about 12 hours, overall the cat 3 storm was manageable. But this is ridiculous. The entire coastline looks like Indonesia after the Tsunami hit.

[louped garouv]

But this is ridiculous. The entire coastline looks like Indonesia after the Tsunami hit.

gonna be real rough out that way for the foreseeable future..... they are talking about evacuating all of the ppl that rode the storm out in NOLA.... the city is still flooding! :(


I saw pics of my old neighborhoods from a friend who had a plane chartered from Houma; the areas do not look good. I am so sad right now....

[Lancer]

'It's like being in a Third World country'

Losses, deteriorating conditions difficult for survivors to bear

It really does suck to be suddenly and brutally tossed back into real life after living in the dream world the United States has worked so diligently to create in the past 100 years or so.

Here's some info from the CNN site:

The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists these organizations for those seeking to assist victims of Hurricane Katrina:

Donate cash

American Red Cross (800) HELP NOW (435-7669) English; (800) 257-7575 Spanish

Operation Blessing (800) 436-6348

America's Second Harvest (800) 344-8070

To donate cash or volunteer

Adventist Community Services (800) 381-7171

Catholic Charities, USA (703) 549-1390

Christian Disaster Response (941) 956-5183 or (941) 551-9554

Christian Reformed World Relief Committee (800) 848-5818

Church World Service (800) 297-1516

Convoy of Hope (417) 823-8998

Lutheran Disaster Response (800) 638-3522

Mennonite Disaster Service (717) 859-2210

Nazarene Disaster Response (888) 256-5886

Presbyterian Disaster Assistance (800) 872-3283

Salvation Army (800) SAL-ARMY (725-2769)

Southern Baptist Convention -- Disaster Relief (800) 462-8657, ext. 6133

United Methodist Committee on Relief (800) 554-8583

[louped garouv]

I just read on a NOLA based night club BBS that some of the looters down there have been firing upon the coast guard rescue choppers and the volunteer boaters picking up survivors.....


unfortunately, I knew the social situation would get bad real quick down there.

when volunteers with their boats are sent out to look for victims, they are deputized and issued a sidearm. the instructions are to shoot if they feel threatened.

http://www.louisianaclubscene.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19879

and the Jefferson parish sherriff Harry Lee has taken a shhot first ask Qs later approach...

http://www.louisianaclubscene.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19884

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Plain and simple. Truly sad. Shooting at the Coast Guard Copters trying to help their fellow man. Looting!......Sad Sad.

[paragon]

This is a very worst thing. Whish all people and members very well.
We don`t have such things in our region. So we are happy.

Eckhard

[Regis]

Donate cash

American Red Cross (800) HELP NOW (435-7669) English; (800) 257-7575 Spanish

Salvation Army (800) SAL-ARMY (725-2769)



I bumped up my weekly paycheck deduction by a factor of two about a month ago. 50% goes to the American Red Cross and 50% goes to the Salvation Army. While $8 a week doesn't sound like much, it adds up to over $400 a year and the little bite it takes out of my check doesn't hurt all that much. I highly encourage everybody to make a weekly donation, year-round, year after year as opposed to the occasional influx of cash. Thanks Lancer for providing the info.

[paragon]

But there is so much money gone in the irak war,
Why he don´t spend so much money in this things ?
So much people died !
There is no electric power because the power lines are
over the street and all damaged !
Change this !

I´m dead, Eckhard

[paragon]

Was ist los, Jungs ??, What`s going on ??

Eckhard:D

Sorry, time difference !!

[Lancer]

There will be a "total evacuation of the city. We have to. The city will not be functional for two or three months," Nagin said.

Functional for two or three months!? Are they all on crack? They would actually try to rebuild New Orleans knowing full well it is unsustainable long term? Are they not looking at the amount of water around them that I'm looking at?

[louped garouv]

There will be a "total evacuation of the city. We have to. The city will not be functional for two or three months," Nagin said.

Functional for two or three months!? Are they all on crack? They would actually try to rebuild New Orleans knowing full well it is unsustainable long term? Are they not looking at the amount of water around them that I'm looking at?

regardless of how the city looks now, the port of New Orleans is still one of the most strategic ports/points in all of the world.... IIRC about 80% of US export goods pass through New Orleans on their way to foreign markets.... many import goods also come in to the US via NOLA --

I don't believe the city is unsustainable long term.... the engineers need to brainfunk the protection of the city from future flooding AND sustain the coastal wetlands, hopefully they will get it right this time....

being surrounded with water is a way of life down there.....

[Lancer]

being surrounded with water is a way of life down there.....and death apparently.

This picture spells only one thing to me F-U-C-T.

Maybe they'll get out the dump trucks and fill that really big depression with some dirt. Maybe they will put the pumps where they won't be overrun by water. Who knows...

[mikebake]

[QUOTE=Regis]I bumped up my weekly paycheck deduction by a factor of two about a month ago. 50% goes to the American Red Cross and 50% goes to the Salvation Army. /QUOTE]
Bravo. Two of the better outfits.

[boputnam]

This picture spells only one thing to me F-U-C-T.And - worse.

Lake Pontchartrain is +5 ft MSL; NOLA is avg. -5 ft MSL. That lake will simply continue to drain, as Newton would argue. NOLA is a natural bowl, a shape exaggerated by years of not allowing the overflowing Mississippi to re-fill the basin with sediments, and the Army Corp dutifully shoring-up the levees. Sure, the Army Corp of Engineers did their best to keep the Mississippi navigable, but the unintended consequence was an ever increasing risk to the Crescent City - a risk that would eventually be overrun by nature. They knew it, we knew it, but all were complicit in denial of the eventuality of the situation. Call me Darwin, but the planet wins every time. This terrible outcome will take years to rectify, if it even is (or should be...).

In the mean-while, there will be terribly long hours, days and weeks of incredible human tragedy - separated from functioning civilization my a mere few miles in places. Ths situation will worsen for days to come. It has to stop getting bad before it can start to get better. And the whole scene is peppered by atrocious looting and societally disrespectful behavior. All races must be shamed by what we can see...

[Lancer]

President Bush warned against price-gouging of gasoline Thursday in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and said looters should be treated with zero tolerance.


And the whole scene is peppered by atrocious looting and societally disrespectful behavior.I personally don't distinguish between looters and price gougers...

President Bush, in an interview on ABC's "Good Morning America," said that their should be "zero tolerance of people breaking the law during an emergency such as this."

Well... one could argue that there should be "zero tolerance" for presidents invading foreign countries to topple their form of government too.
I assume that's what's behind the joint military exercises between Russia and China. :D

Didn't we see all this play out in Iraq when law and order broke down there too?

Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco said Wednesday that she was "just furious" about the lawlessness.

"We'll do what it takes to bring law and order to our region," she said.

Yeah, just shoot all the insurgents. Call in a couple of airstrikes and deal with it. Better yet, vaporize the whole mess so you don't have to clean any of it up. Nuke the site from orbit... It's the only way to be sure...

[Alex Lancaster]

:( So, is it possible to rebuild 15' higher?.

[Titanium Dome]

Anything is possible when you have to destroy virtually everything that's there.

If you've ever travelled there, you know how dreadful the parking used to be. They could start by building reinforced concrete parking lots at ground level, then putting businesses, streets, and residences on top of them at +10 ft. above the Lake. Then if another hurricane comes, they can ride it out in the garages, then move above water level after the levees break.

Plus, they could pull a page from Atlanta, and have New Orleans underground for any parts of the old city that actually could be salvaged.

Or they could bulldoze everything and rebuild below seal level using wood frame construction and beef up the levees. Which is the moron's solution, and probably the one that will happen. :(

[Zilch]

Not that I actually KNOW anything, but I heard yesterday that much of the old city, including the French Quarter, is above sea level, according to Cokie Roberts, of all people, on "Nightline."

I recall the tax they charged coming in from the airport. $9.00 a head, wasn't it, for the maintenance of levees?

Good job.

[I think the Dutch know how to do this, actually....]

[Ian Mackenzie]

Dumb question maybe but why rebuild let alone live below sea level..in a region prone to such weather conditions....:blink: .

I think Maslow's model basically take's over when ever there is an event like this.

Ian

[DavidF]

Dumb question maybe but why rebuild let alone live below sea level..in a region prone to such weather conditions....:blink: .

I think Maslow's model basically take's over when ever there is an event like this.

Ian

Simple answer, maybe, is that just happend to be where ships met barge and wagon. All the sudden you look around and there is a city! I think when the blame-game get's started, the perpetual cost of trying to out-muscle nature will be be part of the debate. But the levees will be rebuilt and in time people will again be casual about life behind the levee.

David F

[Zilch]

Dumb question maybe but why rebuild let alone live below sea level..in a region prone to such weather conditions....:blink: .A terrible place, actually, but there's no denying it's probably on every American's five favorite U.S. cities list....

[Robh3606]

Hello Ian

The original city, The French Quater is the last to flood so the founders knew what they were doing. Over time however it was expanded. It is such an important port that they really have no choice but to reopen and rebuild what they can. As examples the colonial pipeline runs from New Orleans to New York Harbour and supplies natural gas and distilates to the north east. Most of the midwest and central states ship through there via the Mississippi river and the canal systems and railroads, either going east or west you have to truck over mountain ranges with over 1000-2000 mile plus distances to reach an east or west coast port. Savana Georgia would be an east cost alternate but you would have to truck or railroad there. The river is the cheap way to move large volume materials by ship or barge. There is so much volume of materials that comes through there another port may not be able to handle it. Even if they limit the rebuilding the port has to stay open for the forseeable future.

http://www.portno.com/facts.htm

Rob:)

[Titanium Dome]

For a shocking, raw look at what's happening from the standpoint of an emergency responder to the crisis, check this out:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=576235

You may not like it, both for its frankness and for its implied regional bigotry, but you shouldn't ignore it.

If you're easily offended, stay away.

His grammar's bad, too.

[JBL Dog]

The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists these organizations for those seeking to assist victims of Hurricane Katrina:

Donate cash

American Red Cross (800) HELP NOW (435-7669) English; (800) 257-7575 Spanish

Operation Blessing (800) 436-6348

America's Second Harvest (800) 344-8070

To donate cash or volunteer

Adventist Community Services (800) 381-7171

Catholic Charities, USA (703) 549-1390

Christian Disaster Response (941) 956-5183 or (941) 551-9554

Christian Reformed World Relief Committee (800) 848-5818

Church World Service (800) 297-1516

Convoy of Hope (417) 823-8998

Lutheran Disaster Response (800) 638-3522

Mennonite Disaster Service (717) 859-2210

Nazarene Disaster Response (888) 256-5886

Presbyterian Disaster Assistance (800) 872-3283

Salvation Army (800) SAL-ARMY (725-2769)

Southern Baptist Convention -- Disaster Relief (800) 462-8657, ext. 6133

United Methodist Committee on Relief (800) 554-8583

The wifey and I sent a small donation of $100 to the American Red Cross earlier this evening. If any of the rest of you can afford it, please consider doing the same. Our friends to the south are going through a living hell and need all the help they can get.

[Lancer]

"These are some of the 40,000 extra troops that I have demanded," Blanco said. "They have M-16s, and they're locked and loaded ... I have one message for these hoodlums: These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so if necessary, and I expect they will."

:rotfl:

Guess what you ignorant slut? The people you're talking tough to don't have any means of communication. Why don't you personally go down there with a bullhorn and let them know how fucking tough you are you stupid bitch. Take a couple bottles of water with you and pass them out while you're at it... Have each of those 40,000 extra troops hump in a few gallons of water while they're at it...

[Figge]

lol yeah i saw that too!


the weather is pretty fucked up everywhere compared to 15-20 years or so ago...and i guess its only gonna get worse...maybe its not such a bad thing the gas price is rising?



i feel really sorry for all the people stuck in the city...should have been saved DAYS ago!

[JBL Dog]

"These are some of the 40,000 extra troops that I have demanded," Blanco said. "They have M-16s, and they're locked and loaded ... I have one message for these hoodlums: These troops know how to shoot and kill, and they are more than willing to do so if necessary, and I expect they will."

:rotfl:

Guess what you ignorant slut? The people you're talking tough to don't have any means of communication. Why don't you personally go down there with a bullhorn and let them know how fucking tough you are you stupid bitch. Take a couple bottles of water with you and pass them out while you're at it... Have each of those 40,000 extra troops hump in a few gallons of water while they're at it...

Well stated!

[scott fitlin]

Yesterday evening on the news they showed the navy hospital ship " Comfort " being loaded and made ready to go to the Gulf! It will take a few days for the ship to reach the Gulf! But since when is a navel vessel not ready to go at a moments notice? Why wasnt the ship sent earlier? Why has the Gov`t been so slow at getting to New orleans to aid the people? When I was living in Miami in `92, the Gov`t was right there to help! All levels of Gov`t failed IMHO, Federal, State, and Local!

Their now talking about shoot to kill? Well, what do we think happens to people that are living without water, food, and shelter? The basics! They are trying to survive, people are going mad! So some people are stealing things, BFD! Their are far more severe problems at hand! Disease! Death! Slow, torturous death of American citizens! Anyone thinking about that? Dehydrated babies died! The water is contaminated with feces, diseases, and other germs, and rotting corpses! What would any of us be like having to endure these conditions?

And yet, if there was an earthquake in Kajikastan, or a Sunami in the pacific rim, the American forces, Gov`t and aid is there within two days! I mean, they cant drop much needed food and water to the people from choppers in packaging that floats?

If they knew there was even a chance of those levees not holding, why was there not a " MANDATORY " evacuation of the City of New Orleans? After all, they were in fact preparing for the worst, and it did happen! Evacuation of Miami Beach was mandatory in 1992, before Andrew hit! If there was anyone they found in the area they made them get to higher ground, or took em against their will!

Maybe I`m talking out my A$$, but the govt should have gotten there right away with everything needed!

We didnt really come through for the people!

[Zilch]

The evacuation order was "Mandatory."

Problem was, no means was provided to accomplish it for those who didn't have a way to get out, or the resources to sustain themselves elsewhere.

Sidebar Note: #2 on the FEMA list, above:

"Founded on November 14, 1978 by businessman and philanthropist, M.G. Robertson, Operation Blessing was originally set up to help struggling individuals and families by matching their needs for items such as clothing, appliances, and vehicles with donated items from viewers of The 700 Club, Robertson's daily television program."

[louped garouv]

kinda alot of cussing, but so true....

http://www.illwillpress.com/kat.html

[edgewound]

I truly hope this is an overstatement. To our members from this area (actually everyone in the area for that matter), my sincerest wishes that you are able to get out of harm's way and ride out this potential catastrophe safe and sound.

http://weather.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/iwszone?Sites=:laz069

EXTREMELY DANGEROUS HURRICANE KATRINA CONTINUES TO APPROACH THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER DELTA

DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED

MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER. AT LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL...LEAVING THOSE HOMES SEVERELY DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.

THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL. PARTIAL TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED. ALL WOOD FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED. CONCRETE BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE...INCLUDING SOME WALL AND ROOF FAILURE.

HIGH RISE OFFICE AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL SWAY DANGEROUSLY...A FEW TO THE POINT OF TOTAL COLLAPSE. ALL WINDOWS WILL BLOW OUT.

AIRBORNE DEBRIS WILL BE WIDESPREAD...AND MAY INCLUDE HEAVY ITEMS SUCH AS HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES AND EVEN LIGHT VEHICLES. SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES AND LIGHT TRUCKS WILL BE MOVED. THE BLOWN DEBRIS WILL CREATE ADDITIONAL DESTRUCTION. PERSONS...PETS...AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK.

POWER OUTAGES WILL LAST FOR WEEKS...AS MOST POWER POLES WILL BE DOWN AND TRANSFORMERS DESTROYED. WATER SHORTAGES WILL MAKE HUMAN SUFFERING INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF NATIVE TREES WILL BE SNAPPED OR UPROOTED. ONLY THE HEARTIEST WILL REMAIN STANDING...BUT BE TOTALLY DEFOLIATED. FEW CROPS WILL REMAIN. LIVESTOCK LEFT EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL BE KILLED.

I've tried to stay out of this discussion...but I can't any longer. Why is the Gov't to blame for EVERYTHING? Those that stayed in the hurricane ravaged areas were told what was coming, and were told to get out. And now those that stayed behind and need help are blaming the very people trying to help them....and shooting at them. Last I heard the US and State Gov'ts didn't order this hurricane...but these people need to accept the help to get the help...I've been through earthquake clean-up....and those hit with NO warning... civilized people actually help EACH OTHER get through it....not try to kill the rescuers.

There I said it...probably get alot of flak for it...so be it.

[JBL Dog]

kinda alot of cussing, but so true....

http://www.illwillpress.com/kat.html

no sugar coating here!

[louped garouv]

I've tried to stay out of this discussion...but I can't any longer. Why is the Gov't to blame for EVERYTHING? Those that stayed in the hurricane ravaged areas were told what was coming, and were told to get out. And now those that stayed behind and need help are blaming the very people trying to help them....and shooting at them. Last I heard the US and State Gov'ts didn't order this hurricane...but these people need to accept the help to get the help...I've been through earthquake clean-up....and those hit with NO warning... civilized people actually help EACH OTHER get through it....not try to kill the rescuers.

There I said it...probably get alot of flak for it...so be it.

in talking (web chatting) to a lot ppl in Houma, Baton Rouge, lafayette, etc (SE louisiana); seems that some of the reporting has been hyped up a bit -- yes there are bad ppl there, yes there has been violence & looting, etc --
(if you don't know that is kinda business as usual, admittedly not on this kind of scale -- NOLA is not known for being the safest city around, even in the best conditions -- anyone from there had seen the mayhem comming..... unfortunately.)

but it does seem as if some of the stuff being reported on national/local news is (unintentional) mis-information..... I have been following the storm and aftermath on the NOLA area club BBSs, including www.louisianaclubscene.com (http://www.louisianaclubscene.com/) ,and like I said, seems as if at least some of the reporting is exaggerated.....

still not a place I would want to be right now, even though I am very sad about what is going on in my hometown..... makes me :barf:

[Zilch]

Those that stayed in the hurricane ravaged areas were told what was coming, and were told to get out.Here's my point again: 27% of the population, most of these living below poverty levels, had no means to leave. That's about 130,000 people. It would have taken 2000+ busses to do it. If the City had an emergency evacuation plan, it didn't work.

And then what? Where would they have gone? Look at the logistics of what is required to accomplish it now. The Astrodome is already at capacity and not taking any more....

[paragon]

All that is terrible (sorry about my english).
I look every day TV what`s going on there, but what i see is
there is no help for this people, they are dying.. and..nobody
where is the help of Mr. Bush ??
This is a great desaster !!

[louped garouv]

All that is terrible (sorry about my english).
I look every day TV what`s going on there, but what i see is
there is no help for this people, they are dying.. and..nobody
where is the help of Mr. Bush ??
This is a great desaster !!

I wish my german was a good as your english!

sometimes help takes a while -- hopefully the most desperate situations will be alleviated soon.....

I agree it is terrible....

[thoots]

Folks,

I spent about a dozen years in the "Emergency Management" business -- something I got out of about six years ago. My impression currently is that, at the very least, we're seeing a horrifyingly poor emergency management response to this disaster, from all levels of government.

FEMA is an interesting federal agency, but quite certainly, one truth can be said about it:

Only once in the history of FEMA has it been headed by anyone who had any professional experience in "emergency management." For years since its inception, FEMA was always run by an ex-military official -- usually some general, as a nice career- and pension-extending plum assignment. Then, President Clinton did something different -- he hired James Lee Witt, who had served with him as Emergency Management director in Arkansas.

Well, let's go back a few years before that: Hurricane Andrew hit Florida a year before Clinton took office, and FEMA was raked over the coals for taking so long to respond to the disaster. Prior to that, the FEMA director at the time didn't even bother to cut short the vacation he was on when the Loma Prieta earthquake hit the San Fransisco area. During all of this time, FEMA's focus was on "nuclear attack planning," and more war-time "civil defense" type priorities -- with very little focus on handling natural disasters.

Well, James Lee Witt changed all of that. He quickly moved the focus of the agency to natural disaster planning, and he comprehended one very important thing: THE FIRST 72 HOURS were what needed to be focused upon most of all. If you recall back during Hurricane Andrew, FEMA and the State of Florida squabbled about whether or not Florida had "formally requested" FEMA's help. "Insanity" or some such thing must have been what James Lee Witt thought -- when he took control, FEMA started proactively going out BEFORE a disaster hit, if that was possible -- getting "command and control" out in a region ahead of a hurricane, and so on. Putting plans in motion to get relief supplies on the road BEFORE the hurricane hit, and so on.

Very simply, that kind of action prevented the kind of three-to-five-day wait for relief that we're seeing in New Orleans this week.

So, what did our current President Bush do with FEMA? Well, here's an article that describes that far better than I could do here:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/090205Z.shtml

There's some political stuff in there that you may or may not agree with, but that pretty well lays the facts in this story down. Once again, FEMA has been "led" by people with no emergency management experience, it slipped to a far more "reactive" role than "proactive," and it presumably hasn't had nearly the amount of funding it once had.

To me, this is just evidence of the kind of priority Bush has put on "taking care of the average American" -- "we" always seem to be an afterthought, if thought about at all. So, this is exactly the kind of result I have come to expect from the Bush regime. Enough politics, though -- let me end this with my thoughts regarding what I just heard on CNN, and what has been discussed widely on the Internet: Would this slow response have happend if this was an affluent, white area? I've heard many people say "no," but I disagree -- it simply took this long for FEMA to get a response to the disaster coordinated and under way. The only real difference would have been that an affluent area would have probably evacuated itself far more than this one did -- showing all the more that the LOCAL emergency management planning should have had a better plan than just telling everyone to evacuate the area. They don't appear to have had any plan to provide the MEANS for such an evacuation, for residents who didn't have the means themselves.

At any rate, my take on all of this. Hope you found it worth reading!

[rloggie]

Does San Francisco, New York, Los Angles etc have an effective evacuation plan to remove all or even 73% of their population and relocate them with a couple of days notice? I'm not trying to make a point, I just wonder if the major cities are capable of this in an emergency. And I doubt it.




Here's my point again: 27% of the population, most of these living below poverty levels, had no means to leave. That's about 130,000 people. It would have taken 2000+ busses to do it. If the City had an emergency evacuation plan, it didn't work.

And then what? Where would they have gone? Look at the logistics of what is required to accomplish it now. The Astrodome is already at capacity and not taking any more....

[scott fitlin]

I've tried to stay out of this discussion...but I can't any longer. Why is the Gov't to blame for EVERYTHING? Those that stayed in the hurricane ravaged areas were told what was coming, and were told to get out. And now those that stayed behind and need help are blaming the very people trying to help them....and shooting at them. Last I heard the US and State Gov'ts didn't order this hurricane...but these people need to accept the help to get the help...I've been through earthquake clean-up....and those hit with NO warning... civilized people actually help EACH OTHER get through it....not try to kill the rescuers.

There I said it...probably get alot of flak for it...so be it.There, ( IMHO ), should have been mandatory evacuation, and those that refused to go should have been taken out of there! The local govt or state should have gotten some form of transportation over there to get them out of there! This is what they did in Miami in 92! They took people to the mainland, whether they agreed to go or not!

As to why the people in need of help the most, are being so hostile towards the people coming in to help, I dont know!

[thoots]

Does San Francisco, New York, Los Angles etc have an effective evacuation plan to remove all or even 73% of their population and relocate them with a couple of days notice? I'm not trying to make a point, I just wonder if the major cities are capable of this in an emergency. And I doubt it.

Actually, these places SHOULD have such plans. They pay a number of people plenty of money to write and update such plans, and to exercise them to try to figure out if they are feasible or not.

One thing you do (which we didn't see in New Orleans), is get all "incoming" traffic blocked so that all freeways go "outbound." Then, you figure out what proportion of people can drive themselves out. Then, you come up with a plan to move the rest of the people. How many public transit system buses do you think cities like these have? How many school buses do you think these places have?

I truly think that, given competent emergency management planning, even our largest cities can be evacuated successfully. In fact, you saw that kind of thing in action on 9/11, as people were evacuated from lower Manhattan, walking across the Brooklyn Bridge, taking ferry boats, and so on. For what it's worth, it takes planning on a "local" level to achieve this kind of thing -- not anything that FEMA does. Though, FEMA would indeed provide some kind of funding to the local levels to fund this kind of planning.

[edgewound]

... In fact, you saw that kind of thing in action on 9/11, as people were evacuated from lower Manhattan, walking across the Brooklyn Bridge...



Kind of what I was getting at...unless you can't walk, hitchhike, ride a bike...there was several days notice to evacuate.

[Zilch]

Does San Francisco, New York, Los Angles etc have an effective evacuation plan to remove all or even 73% of their population and relocate them with a couple of days notice? Nope, no doubt.

In all of our earthquake preparedness information here, we are cautioned that we'll be on our own for a minimum of 5 days when the "Big One" comes. No jurisdiction has the means for instant response of the requisite scale.

HOWEVER, I would think it prudent for a city such as New Orleans, under imminent threat of inundation at any time, to have an emergency response plan fairly high among civic priorities. It ain't real hard to figure that the sewers aren't gonna work if the place floods, and it might have been reasonable to expect bottled water and rations to be stored in emergency shelters on high ground, as well as a workable evacuation plan.

I acknowledge that this is all contrary to "Big Easy" culture, but still, NOTHING but some pumps that don't work? First response must come from the local jurisdiction responsible for the safety of its citizens, and one lonely pissed-off mayor afterwards doesn't get it done.

New Orleans is (was) a HUGE economic machine. There's no excuse.... :biting:

[louped garouv]

One thing you do (which we didn't see in New Orleans), is get all "incoming" traffic blocked so that all freeways go "outbound."

it is my understanding that the highways were 'contra-flowed'....

[edgewound]

(http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/090205Z.shtml)http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/090205Z.shtml

(http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/090205Z.shtml)

For the author of this politcally charged piece of "journalism" to suggest that the aftermath of the powerful natural disaster could be prevented is complete and utter:bs: . The reason so many people died from the tsunami in Thailand and surrounding areas was because there was no warning system at all...and people still would have died...it's all a terrible
tragedy. But come on...it wasn't just a flood...there was 150+ mph winds that the flood water had nothing to do with. There's only so much mankind can do to defend against Mother Nature....if she really wants to, Mother Nature will kick your ass....and this time she did it good. Let's stop the friggin' political finger pointing and deal with the mess. How 'bout just a little support for President Bush? This guy has been dealt disaster after disaster and he hasn't collasped from the stress yet...or been checked into rehab.

Oh yeah...almost forgot...former President Clinton cut the military by half.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think Thoots nailed it.

Sometime back I worked for a key supplier of our emergency services. Most of the budget was for EVAC planning and the alliances in place with other agencies to prepare a co ordinated effort in the event of a disaster right down to the plan and directions with a fridge magnet for every citizen.

Ian

[Audiobeer]

I won't live in a bowl, I won't live in a trailer in tornado alley, and I won't build on a flood plain. And above and beyond the before mentioned I would never depend on the goverment to protect my ass if I live in these areas. The ideal that All these people should be already rescued, sheltered, clothed, fed since the winds died down on Monday morning is ridiculous. The main problem was in New Orleans and everyone was breathing a sigh of relief until the levee's broke. I love all the Monday morning quaterbacks saying we should have done this are that. Hell there is a lot of things that should be done on all the fault lines, flood plains, ect, around the country....plans, contingencies, ect. Step back and look at the devistation. Yes the goverment is doing a shitty job....is that a surprise? Goverment waste and bureacacy knows no party.....insert Clinton where Bush is and you have more of a showman but the same results. Everyone from the grunt living in his shack to the Highest level of goverment assumed that someone has thier back. The best we can get out of this is learn from it because it's going to happen again and again through time. The biggest problem I think we all have out of this is the frustration that we can't do didly about it so we have to vent..... we point fingers. and I for one agree that we should learn from this but the ideal that one "average man" at best like "Bush" should have done this or that....well it just pisses me of when politics is injected. This is just a case of American's thinking it won't happen to them and not heeding the warnings. We don't heed any warnings when it comes to gas consumption, global warming, on and on. That's a whole other topic. The ideal that the Federal Goverment is at fault, or 1 particlar politician is ridiculous. What Nation could have all the issues resolved from such an occurence in 1 week if we can't. I will not argue that more could have been done but I just find it sad that it has to be a political football and we haven't even recovered. During 9/11 you were able to communicate and had power, lights, transportation and it was limited to a few blocks. Here the devistation goes on for blocks. I feel helpless, it is frustrating. Don't think I'll be offended if you fire back, pile on....I'm just venting too. :(

[sonofagun]

Then I'll vent too...

be careful who you contribute to:

http://www.the-catbird-seat.net/RedCross.htm

[thoots]

In all of our earthquake preparedness information here, we are cautioned that we'll be on our own for a minimum of 5 days when the "Big One" comes. No jurisdiction has the means for instant response of the requisite scale.

Well, no, you wouldn't see "evacuation" as a part of earthquake preparation, of course. Maybe some day we'll be able to predict those. However, the "you will be on your own" part is the same for everything -- you really should have a "72 hour kit" or something -- especially enough drinkable water and something to eat that doesn't need to be cooked, to last 3 to 5 days, or more.


HOWEVER, I would think it prudent for a city such as New Orleans, under imminent threat of inundation at any time, to have an emergency response plan fairly high among civic priorities. It ain't real hard to figure that the sewers aren't gonna work if the place floods, and it might have been reasonable to expect bottled water and rations to be stored in emergency shelters on high ground, as well as a workable evacuation plan.

I acknowledge that this is all contrary to "Big Easy" culture, but still, NOTHING but some pumps that don't work? First response must come from the local jurisdiction responsible for the safety of its citizens, and one lonely pissed-off mayor afterwards doesn't get it done.

New Orleans is (was) a HUGE economic machine. There's no excuse.... :biting:

Yep. It sure appears that the officials there recognized that the city was highly at risk of flooding. That's what you do as an emergency manager -- you determine what you are most at risk for, and then you develop plans to deal with that kind of emergency. You've nailed plenty of it -- at least make rations available for the emergency responders. Make sure they've got the equipment they need to respond to this kind of situation. And so on. Of course, it takes a pile of money to put stuff like that in place....

And, yes, people DO have to take responsibility for their lives, too. It WILL take a while for relief to get to them.

[edgewound]

and of course....here's Jesse Jackson...a man of peace:bs: ...stirring the racist hornet's nest

http://channels.netscape.com/fotosrch/2/20050901BAR02D.jpg (http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/bigpic.jsp?photoid=20050901BAR02D) Jackson Blasts Bush Over Katrina Aid

</FONT
By DOUG SIMPSON

BATON ROUGE, La. (AP) - Racism is partly to blame for the deadly aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, the Rev. Jesse Jackson said, calling President Bush's response to the disaster ``incompetent.''

``Today, as the President comes to Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi for his ceremonial trip to look at the victims of the devastation, he would do well to have a plan more significant than a ceremonial tour,'' Jackson said Friday.

``His whole response is unacceptable.''

Bush has acknowledged that the federal response has not been acceptable, but promised that the government would get supplies to survivors and crack down on violence in New Orleans.

Jackson questioned why Bush has not named blacks to top positions in the federal response to the disaster, particularly when the majority of victims remaining stranded in New Orleans are black: ``How can blacks be locked out of the leadership, and trapped in the suffering?''


``It is that lack of sensitivity and compassion that represents a kind of incompetence.''


U.S. Army Lt. Gen. Russell Honore, head of the military task force overseeing operations in the three states, is black. His task force is providing search and rescue, medical help and sending supplies to the three states in support of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.


Jackson was in Baton Rouge to take part in a local project using a caravan of buses to pick up people stranded in New Orleans and transport them out. He spoke at a news conference at the state emergency center.


The civil rights leader said the flooding that caused thousands to be trapped inside the city was caused by a lack of federal funding for its levee system and hurricane planning. The resulting tragedy, he said, has largely hit New Orleans' black residents, because they were too poor to evacuate before the storm hit.


``There's a historical indifference to the pain of poor people and black people'' in this country, he said.


Jackson also said the news media has ``criminalized the people of New Orleans'' by focusing on violence in the city.



09/02/05 15:48


© Copyright The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained In this news report may not be published, broadcast or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.

..

[Don McRitchie]

The following is not directed at anyone in particular. Please do not turn this thread into a political football. We are witnessing a great tragedy and using this as an opportunity to score political points on this forum is inappropriate and divisive. I have to admit one of my strongest reactions to the images and stories coming out of this catastrophe is anger and I have my own targets for directing that anger. However, I will not express them here because it would do no good and only have the potential for harm. There are numerous political forums out there that are expressly designed to allow this type of discourse if you so wish. That being said, it is not my intent to close off discussion on this topic. There are a lot of constructive issues that can become the focus of this thread.

[thoots]

(http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/090205Z.shtml)

For the author of this politcally charged piece of "journalism" to suggest that the aftermath of the powerful natural disaster could be prevented is complete and utter :bs:. But come on...it wasn't just a flood...there was 150+ mph winds that the flood water had nothing to do with. There's only so much mankind can do to defend against Mother Nature. Let's stop the friggin' political finger pointing and deal with the mess. How 'bout just a little support for President Bush? This guy has been dealt disaster after disaster and he hasn't collasped from the stress yet...or been checked into rehab.

Well, I'm definitely with Don, and I'm really trying pretty hard NOT to make this political -- it's just a matter of what priorities any given politician has been using while spending all of the tax money we fork over to him or her. I'm not really even trying to "lay blame," but rather, I've been trying to provide a little insight into the situation where all kinds of other folks are laying blame all over the place.

That said, back to the disaster at hand. I don't believe anyone is saying that a natural disaster could be "prevented" -- of course it can't. However, we human beings absolutely CAN make a difference in regards to the amount of damage such a disaster might cause to our lives and property. In the emergency management arena, this is something known as "mitigation." If we happen to live in an area that's largely below sea level, and we make that happen by means of building levees, well, we "mitigate" the possible effects of disasters by making sure we build VERY VERY VERY GOOD levees. Unless, of course, some politician who happens to control the money decides this isn't a very high priority, and sends all the money somewhere else. Then, maybe we only get VERY MEDIOCRE levees.

Building "below sea level" and controlling nature's waterways to fit our urban needs isn't really rare at all -- we "reclaim" land by filling in waterways all over the world, we build dams and seawalls and all kind of things to control the waterways around us. "Netherlands" usually comes to mind in regards to areas built below sea level, but, gosh, I doubt they skimp on the funding of their levee and dike maintenance and construction!

But, again, this is "mitigation," and it largely works. It's like the argument in regards to rebuilding the city below sea level again, and why should we do that. Along with the argument about how they keep on rebuilding in the earthquake-zone areas in California. Well, again, in California, they "rebuild" with ever-increasingly-demanding building codes, so new construction is built to be relatively "earthquake-proof." A good for-instance is how you usually don't see major new buildings -- skyscrapers and such -- get damaged in those earthquakes. It's mainly because these are multi-million-dollar constructions built to very demanding earthquake-survival building codes. And, a lot of techniques and technologies can help to "earthquake-proof" any given home -- bolting the home to the foundation, adding steel or other strengthing supports and such can make a big difference. Other kinds of construction also get rebuilt to better codes, such as freeway overpasses.

So, we CAN mitigate the effects of natural disasters. Also, especially in regards to "flooding," we have increasingly become aware of the effect that "paving over vast acres of land" has PLENTY to do with the severity of any flooding that might happen. It's very simple -- natural soil and especially anything resembling a "wetland" can soak up floodwaters, but concrete and pavement just doesn't allow that to happen. Again, that has been identified in the New Orleans area -- we have built over much of the wetland area around the city, doing exactly the opposite of "mitigating" the chance that flooding might happen in the city.

Regarding "politics," all I can do is point out that George W. Bush has appointed a couple of guys who have no emergency management experience whatsoever to run FEMA. And, it essentially took FEMA about five days to get any relief into the area. Plus, whoever made the decision to bury FEMA under the Office of Homeland Security put the whole thing back into "military mode," where natural disaster response became a low priority once again. Heck, I watched a CNN report today where, out of some 350 or so exercises FEMA had anything to do with over some period of time I never quite caught, only TWO had anything to do with "hurricanes" -- all of the others were all about terrorist attacks. And, apparently, even the two hurricane exercises included some terrorist attack within them.

In the end, I just come from the side of the fence that believes that government CAN make a difference in situations like these. We fork over lots of tax dollars, and we have come to expect "disaster response and relief" from our government agencies. In the case of natural disasters, I have seen how FEMA under James Lee Witt took pro-active action to get command and control centers in place before hurricanes hit our country, and took pro-active action to have relief supplies virtually "on the road" before a storm hits land. It CAN be done, if government is competent enough to decide to do it. And I sure think it helps to have an experienced emergency manager running FEMA, in order to attain such competence.

Of course, you can't do this kind of thing with all the different kinds of natural disasters -- we can't predict earthquakes worth beans, for instance. But, we've got a pretty good grip on "hurricanes" by now. Yeah, they move around a bit, but we usually have a pretty good idea of where they will hit and how strong they will be not only "hours" before they hit, but virtually "days." Good emergency managers know that THIS is the time to start acting -- it can and does save lives, and that's the number one priority for every emergency management professional.

[Audiobeer]

I cannot argue with anything you say, other than to state there was a need to prepare the levee's before Bush. I would think the Mayor, then the Govenor of Louisiana and so on should be more responsible then the President. I find it hard to belive had Kerry or Gore had been elected the Levee would not have still failed. I just cannot believe that while all this crap is going on, the same politicians on both sides take the pot shots. It's business as usual on both sides and I for one get sick of it. Hopefully if anything good comes out of the tragedy like this will pull people together. :(

[Titanium Dome]

I find it hard to belive had Kerry or Gore had been elected the Levee would not have still failed. I just cannot believe that while all this crap is going on, the same politicians on both sides take the pot shots. It's business as usual on both sides and I for one get sick of it. Hopefully if anything good comes out of the tragedy like this will pull people together. :(

Characteristically, though, these poorly implemented plans pull us apart. Some of us blindly blame the government and the president, while some of us blindly support them. Your point that it wouldn't matter who was in charge is the saddest reality of all. Is this the best we can do? Are these truly the most talented and capable leaders we can produce?

The hard truth is that we all know people who could have done a better job organizing, assigning, and executing, but they'll never be mayors or governors or presidents. Could we at least get a mayor or governor or president who could appoint people to these positions based on merit and ability? Apparently Clinton could do it at least in one instance.

Witt was clearly the most competent FEMA leader ever. Period. Did you see the poor sap in charge now? He doesn't have a clue. Why is he there? Who appointed him? Who's responsible for that? Ah, George Bush.

If you want the power and the glory you have to accept the blame and the shame. Because when the good times come you want the credit, and when the bad times come you said you could take care of business so do it. No excuses, no "I can't control nature" whining, no "it takes time to ramp up" aid, no "we have plenty of resources and we just have to mobilize them so be patient" while people suffer and die, while children are trumatized, while people predictably turn into animals trying to survive.

Geez, all the studies needed have been done, all the logistical plans needed have been drawn over centuries of military planning, all the strategies necessary for command and control have been demonstrated hundreds of times across the globe over the decades, the mystery of supply chains and food/materiel drops have been perfected, and we are the brightest and best...so :wtf:

It's leadership and vision folks. Where there is no vision the people perish. Where there is no vision, only the blind have power. And you know what happens when the blind lead the blind.

He said he wanted to be president. She said she wanted to be governor. He said he wanted to be mayor. No one forced them. In an older and more accountable culture, the leader would be taken out and killed after a disaster like this. Then the next leader would do a much better job.

[Audiobeer]

[QUOTE=Titanium Dome]He said he wanted to be president. She said she wanted to be governor. He said he wanted to be mayor. No one forced them. In an older and more accountable culture, the leader would be taken out and killed after a disaster like this. Then the next leader would do a much better job.[/QUOTE

I have no argument for that.....the leadership sucks all around. I look at other parts of the affected area that things are goind so much better, is it the flood waters, leadership, or the people causing the delay on New Orleans? What is it about New Orleans that differs from the other areas. Why is everyone looking at New Orleans as the News Story. Why is there no looting elsewhere in the scope of New Orleans. Why are the people suffering more in New Orleans than anywhere else? I just can't believe that it's politics on a federal level. Why are the people in the dome being forced to stay and Red Cross not being allowed in. Who's making those decisions?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Frankly,

After reading the newpaper accounts of the horror stories of Austrailian tourists lucky to be alive after being trapped inside the super dome, everything else is background noise.

I am sure we will all pray for those caught up this tragedy that they survive the ordeal.

Ian

[louped garouv]

... above and beyond the before mentioned I would never depend on the goverment to protect my ass if I live in these areas. The ideal that All these people should be already rescued, sheltered, clothed, fed since the winds died down on Monday morning is ridiculous. The main problem was in New Orleans and everyone was breathing a sigh of relief until the levee's broke. ...... This is just a case of American's thinking it won't happen to them and not heeding the warnings. ... During 9/11 you were able to communicate and had power, lights, transportation and it was limited to a few blocks. Here the devistation goes on for blocks. I feel helpless, it is frustrating. Don't think I'll be offended if you fire back, pile on....I'm just venting too. :(

no reason to pile it on ole' audiobeer..... we just talking.... ;)


the number I have been hearing listening to the www.wdsu.com (http://www.wdsu.com/) (local NOLA TV station broadcasting from FL right now, w/ live webcasting) has been the 90,000 square miles of devestation --- that is the biggest issue, the shear magnitude of the destruction; and the related issue of loss of power and utilities...

I don't think it can all be attributed to local new orleanians merely not heeding the warnings, much of it can be attributed to the lack of evacuation, it was a mandatory evacuation after all, but to just write it off as ignoring the warnings is to not look at the true circumstances faced by the ppl of NOLA -- I have heard the story of at least three survivors that said they just could not afford to leave -- the storm hit b4 payday afterall, and their meager savings had been dwindled down to nothing the last time they evacuated (from George IIRC -- one of the interviewees stated that she had spent $1200 the last evacuation and just did not have the funding to be able to do that again on such stort notice)

as far as not depending on the govt to take care of them, I personally know a bunch of folks out that way that have done as well as can be expected during this last storm, and it is undoubtedly due to their preparations.... fresh water, food, batteries, radios, emergency phones, pirogues, flatboats,sidearms/ammo, etc -- alot of the ppl you have seen on the news just have no way of stockpiling the necessary survival kits in their publically provided tenemants, or their little homes that they have been able to provide for themselves; just a fact of life down there....


good cajuns are prepared for almost anything, I hope a pray for the saftey of the folks in Louisiana, Miss, and AL -- especially the folks out in the still flooded areas and what used to be the outlying coastal areas of LA, IE: Grand Isle, Venice, Buras -- I hear that their hometowns have not fared so well....

[paragon]

Wir gedenken der Toten im Raum Missisipi Delta die dieser Hurrican verursacht hat. Die Versorgung der Überlebenden ist inakzeptabel !!

Sorry, Eckhard

[John]

From what I remember Clinton did not start the downsizing of the U.S. Forces, it started under Reagon and then continued under Bush and then Clinton. By the way "W" has had 5 years to fix things!!! Is there anyone out there that could name one thing that "W" has fixed in the last 5 years??? Really what has the guy done at all.:banghead:

[Mr. Widget]

Is there anyone out there that could name one thing that "W" has fixed in the last 5 years???

I can name one thing. He has really "fixed" us! :applaud:

Please take this as an attempt at humor and not a political slam or endorsement of any kind.

As for the aftermath of Katrina, there is plenty of blame all around. It does focus at the top, but that is the nature of being at the top. As pointed out by several members, it isn't like an earthquake that strikes with absolutely no warning (at least with our current technology) however like an earthquake striking San Francisco, a class 4-5 Hurricane hitting New Orleans was never going to be a surprise... we've had a very, very long time to plan.

I am now just that much less confident in our response for the big one that will hit San Francisco. We do have an outstanding fire department, but who has their backs? With our current type of respond after the fact mentality, I expect that we will see what resources that might have been available to us will be diverted to the South East leaving us even more vulnerable... The quote will be, "No one thought that San Francisco would burn like that after a massive earthquake. We couldn't possibly have known. We've all been humbled by the awesome powers of Mother Nature."

Widget

[Titanium Dome]

He's spent nearly 27% of his terms so far on vacation. That's his #1 achivement. Now admittedly, this is information I got from another source, and I didn't count the days myself, and he might have worked parts of some of those days.

http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20031001.html

If I had that kind of deal, I'd get 14.4 weeks of vacation a year, but I only get three, and I have to work during my vacation sometimes, too. :baby:

Now some folks somewhere will say that the unfortunate residents of New Orleans will be on permanent vacation at government expense for untold months, but that's obviously not the same thing. Sadly, when you have nothing to go back to, being away from home is not a vacation, no matter who pays for it. :no:

Just once I'd like to see a president who not only said he cared but actually proved it again and again with actions. Well, there was Jimmy Carter (who created FEMA, BTW). You don't have to like him or his politics to be able to see that he put his back into it, building houses, feeding the poor, relieving refugees, etc. He didn't go on the perpetual pocket-lining parade of pompous dinners that other presidents have undertaken.

He'll be in New Orleans for more than a flyover and a photo op.

http://www.habitat.org/newsroom/2005archive/insitedoc010602.aspx

[Ian Mackenzie]

Gee,

You guys are still talking blame.

I think you need to look at what the rest of the world thinks of "America".

It's an attitude problem...

America's shame...are the headlines and the pictures back this up.....

How could this happen to the richest nation on Earth?

Bush calls on his father and former president Clinton for help because he can't handle it. If he is the manager of a business then the business is " seriously scewed up" and the recources that were needed to deal with this unfortunate event have been spent on an all but failed attempt at telling someone else how to run their business..

We get plenty of these storm too....Darwin was flattened totally and it is literally 1000's of kms from the nearest major city....there was none of this crap. They went in the next morning, established leadership and did what had to be done.

No this is not a political slap in the face, its just that the rest of the world has to deal with disasters all the time but shame isn't the outcome.

[louped garouv]

We get plenty of these storm too....Darwin was flattened totally and it is literally 1000's of kms from the nearest major city....there was none of this crap. They went in the next morning, established leadership and did what had to be done.

No this is not a political slap in the face, its just that the rest of the world has to deal with disasters all the time but shame isn't the outcome.

the levees (really the floodwalls) breaking the next morning in NOLA really created havoc -- the calls over the radios at that time were desperate... had rescue personnel been on the scene at the time, they would have needed saving too....

true establishing leadership took entirely too long, but I think that the armed (bad) ppl in NOLA really are the ones who established themselves as leaders, and unfortunately they started raping and pillaging which did not exactly encourage rescue volunteers to help with the life saving portion of the recovery plan -- they were trying to stay safe themselves...

I seem to remember the US helping in most foreign disasters, not sure about the one in question, bu tI think the U Shelp in most.....

I just hope and pray that thr body count does not reach the 10K mark in NOLA... Nagin said that the number of NOLA citizens unaccounted for tops 50K, I just hope that 10% don't end up being dead.... but deep inside, I know that they will be pulling corpses for a long time......

like I said b4, I am really torn up over this.....

[Lancer]

No this is not a political slap in the face, its just that the rest of the world has to deal with disasters all the time but shame isn't the outcome.America is really huge on "accountability" and "taking ownership" right now. Bush is accountable and he needs to take ownership of the fact that he is a failure as a president. Instead of blowing 80 billion in Iraq he should have put all the cash into our now ancient infrastructure. All across America we are working with legacy infrastructure and pretty soon it will get to the point where things simply start to fail wholesale. He just doesn't have a good picture of things. Moreover, is appears he doesn't want to have a good picture of anything beyond his own personal adgenda. People can understand natural disasters just fine. What people can't understand is when impending doom is spelled out before them and their leaders fail to act on that information. Hurricanes happen, no one can be blamed for that. Bush and the leadership in this country are accountable for New Orleans. It's really pretty simple. They gambled and they lost.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-na-levee4sep04,1,989132.story?coll=la-news-politics-national

There is soooo much that has to be done in the United States to bring it into the new century. Everywhere you go towns and cities need money pumped into them. Instead we spend our money overseas...

[louped garouv]

America is really huge on "accountability" and "taking ownership" right now. Bush is accountable and he needs to take ownership... People can understand natural disasters just fine. What people can't understand is when impending doom is spelled out before them and their leaders fail to act on that information.


Everywhere you go towns and cities need money pumped into them. Instead we spend our money overseas...

the problem in NOLA long predates Bush... had NOLA been given a billion dollars thirty years ago; then they could have had a levee system that could have stood up to a Hurricane class 4/5 --

currently, the funding bills to update the levees have been stalled in congress for several years now, but even had they been passed a decade ago, the work would have still been going on...

too big an issue to put on the one guy, ya know? I would suspect that even if NOLA had been fully funded to construct a modern system, some local politians would get rich and the system would be 1/2 ass......

[Lancer]

the problem in NOLA long predates Bush... Completely irrelevant... it happened on "his watch". That's another current favorite buzzword in this country.

[Robh3606]

Florida had 3 major hurricane strikes is 3 weeks last year. You didn't see one report where people were abandoned and left with no help. It's not like we have not seen a hurricane before. They are simply better prepared at all levels to deal with them. LA should have been ready and it wasn't. Their local government all the way to the federal level failed them. Doesn't matter how much money you have if you spend it on the wrong things.

Rob:)

[Audiobeer]

Completely irrelevant... it happened on "his watch". That's another current favorite buzzword in this country.

And that's politics as usual. "On his watch", "Held accountable", "leveraging technology". blah nlah blah........what it is, is just words. Same old shit just a different administration, And folks like us will bitch about it and point fingers while all this crap goes on. We'll reach in our pockets and we will send money. In the years to come and this is on the back burner we will have done nothing further about it. We are reactive and are so caught up in our own lives that we never look forward. That is why we depend on leadership. Can any of us name a President that was Forward Looking in any other area other than defense? It was long before my time. By the way Lancer this was not a reaction based on your reply....well it was....."Watchwords. Drivers. triggering mechanism.....these are the words I hear everyday at work and it makes me want to snap! :D

[paragon]

Thats the same everywhere. Blablah.. and nothing behind.:blink:

[Mr. Widget]

Can any of us name a President that was Forward Looking in any other area other than defense?

Jimmy Carter... he was a terrible administrator but was quite forward thinking. If we had stayed the course he laid out we wouldn't be as indebted to the oil companies and their spawn as we are. Had we continued with the alternative energy and conservation programs that were begun under "his watch" we wouldn't have the gas guzzling behemoths that so many feel entitled to and enjoy filling up so much.

Jimmy Carter was also forward thinking about national disasters and homeland security in creating FEMA... too bad others haven't followed his lead.

Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

My intention was not to stir the pot but at least many of you can see the wood for the trees. That's not easy in a large economy.

I watched Late Line last night. The foreign correspondent in Washington basically summed but everything Lancer said and much much more. The levee's I think he said are on the top 5 impending known threats to the USA, Bush's incompetence, the racial/class inequality and the watering down of key agencies into Homeland security, the lack of co ordination..

But it was the broadcast by that mayor who broke down and wept the truth that is reverberating through the annals of Washington and the nation. When there are promises for help and it does not come soon enough it goes right to the core.

If victim of a disaster recognises they have been left for dead their resolve is crushed and if they are weak..they die.

I'd be very surprised if emotions like that will not etch deep into the hearts and minds of those who can and will make change in the future.

Ian

[Mr. Widget]

the problem in NOLA long predates Bush...

too big an issue to put on the one guy, ya know?

Both quite true. That said a true leader could have done so much more. Just look at this man, while talking about the disaster relief his eyes wander and he looks as if he is looking for guidance from elsewhere... as soon as the topic is the damage to the oil fields and the oil infrastructure, his eyes focus and he speaks with conviction and authority.

I never liked Bill Clinton. I never voted for him. I did vote in every election too. I have no idea if things would have been appreciably different had he been president for the last five years, (a side from the billions of dollars and thousands of lives lost in Iraq) but I do feel that we have about the poorest example of true leadership that I have seen in my lifetime.

Widget

[Lancer]

too big an issue to put on the one guy, ya know?New Orleans is small potatoes compared with Iraq and I have no problems with putting THAT issue on one guy...

The bottom line is they should have reinforced the levees as recommended and they didn't. They chose not to so tough shit. It's all history now. In real life people would actually get fired for such performance. Now we, and I do mean we, have to spend a whole lot more money on fixing a whole bunch of stuff that would not require fixing if the money had been put into the levees as described. The difference in dollars will not be trivial. I personally don't feel like having a bunch of my tax dollars get dumped into New Orleans. My personal opinion is that would be throwing good money after bad. Unfortunately I have to go with the program.

[Audiobeer]

Your right....so let me re-word it. Has there been a President that has been sucssesful in any eandevor that was forward looking since the depression era? Keep in mind we keep blaming the President when our elected officials in the Congress and in the Senate have a little more control in our problems. This discussion is so futile and useless because it keeps reverting to blaming a single Politician for the failures that realy fall on the congress, senate, and ultimately the people who elects them. I think Kennedy had the right ideal with is inaugral statement, ask not what you can do....blah blah blah. Instead a lot of us are going to get in an SUV on a bright sunny dry day, go to work, pitch in $5 so you can wear jeans and send the money to the Hurricane victims. Business as usual, politics as usual. We think we are entitled to everything as long as we pay are taxes. Compare our taxes to the Europeans. If I was paying what they were I might be bitching about the response time. If I was able to, I'd get in a SUV loaded with supplies to go down to help. I can't though because, I like many of you are not "Forward Looking". If I miss one month of work, my world as I know it goes under because I live from day to day. This is the same mentality that exists from the Head of Goverment, to the grunt on the street. Think about how forward looking you are when you compare your assets to your liabilities. We as Americans since World war 2 are the greediest, bitchiest, useless, folks on the planet. We make very little and we consume everything. Years ago Americans could travel, and anyone anywhere would welcome us with open arms. That's because we took care of our own first and then took care of others. We were self sufficient.....now you have to hide your identity on foreign soil. So if any of you believe, that a President with and economy that we have can rebuild the intrastructure is just naive. Here's why I believe that.....who's going to pay for it. What congressmen in the midwest is going to tell his constituents to pay for rebuilding the left coast to Earthquakes standards, and while your at it lets replace the aging sewer and pipelines that should have been done years ago. Now lets go to New Orleans and not just rebuild to a level 3 hurrican cababilty but lets go to 5. Yes it's been done elswhere....like the Dutch. I'm not to educated but could anyone tell me how often if ever the Dutch get a threat from say a Level 1 hurricane? The point I'm making is the price is unbelievable. The process is so slow. It depends on you first. People talk about voting the conscience but when that curtain closes they vote thier pocket book. The reason Bush got in because people voted for the man they felt represented him. It was so close in the past 2 elections that it is easy to conclude this country is divided in which way to go. There is no clear leader in sight. Any Leader is going to have to regain respect in the World so we can be left alone long enough to rebuild from within. Then It will be interesting to see this leader get congress to lay off 100,000 or so of thier constuints from the Defense Spending industry, or so from oil industry. And as long as people aren't going to step up, as long as people are going to sit back and attack rather than assist the shit goes on. Have you seen one politician from 1 party compliment or recommend what another party do as a norm or an exception. As long as we bitch slap each other we can't look ahead.

[DavidF]

Leadership will usually fail if you cannot get anybody to listen (Carter) or nobody wants to listen (Bush).

I see some very encouraging signs coming out of the disaster area. The media is only now beginning to put a wide angle lens on the total impacted area outside of the New Orleans Superdome and Convention Center. Many, many communities suffered, and will continue to suffer. It seems though that the suffering in N.O. will always be etched in people’s minds.

David F

[Lancer]

Yeah, that area got the most media coverage, by design I'm sure. There isn't nearly as much drama associated with a town that gets wiped off the map by a hurricane.

[thoots]

Folks,

I saw what was a totally incredible story on CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360" show today -- he did a phone interview with "Former FEMA Director James Lee Witt." Stepping back a bit, when the Bush regime came in, Mr. Witt started an "emergency management" consulting company. So, I don't know in what capacity Mr. Witt is serving, but he talked about how he was working with current director Michael Brown to improve the response to the disaster in New Orleans.

OK, so how did Mr. Witt describe the work he was going to do? Mainly, "set up a Joint Operations Center" and set it up to work with the "Incident Command System."

HOLY STINKING CRIMONY, BATMAN!!! You mean to say that they HAVEN'T been working under such a system all of this time?!? HOLY INCOMPETENCE, BATMAN!! Most folks wouldn't have comprehended the significance of Mr. Witt's statements, but emegency management folks know EXACTLY what he was talking about -- these are the "tools" of the emergency management "response" phase, and the apparent fact that this stuff hadn't already been put into place down there speaks VOLUMES about the nightmare that has happened down there. (Nightmare as in 'not the hurricane or the flooding,' y'know....)

Prior to this little phone interview, the show had done a bit about how some firefighters were frustrated out of their minds, as they hadn't been given work to do, and just recently when they had tried, another agency shooed them away, saying the area was "their" responsibility.

So, yeah, that kind of thing would have a big effect upon the ultimate response to things -- total chaos among the various agencies trying to accomplish something. My word!

You see, a "Joint Operations Center" pulls together DECISION-MAKING AUTHORITIES from each of the agencies involved in the effort, all in one room, trying to work together to coordinate their "troops" to the best benefit and the highest priority work at the time. The "Incident Command System" is a universal, widely-adopted "set of rules and procedures" that aids not only the communication and control within the Joint Operations Center, but also aids the communication and control of the troops in the field. It's probably quite similar to military command and control -- very much like you've seen how the military forces under Lt. Gen. Russel Honore look like they've got their end under control and how they're getting things done. Now, finally, all of the agencies down there can work together and get all of the tasks that need to be done, in a planned and organized fashion.

James Lee Witt said that he'd have that all set up in place by the end of the day Tuesday, and that he had started talking with FEMA Director Brown on Friday. But, again, to think that FEMA hadn't facilitated such an operation before this is absolutely MIND-BOGGLING. As I like to say to those who try to bring "race" into the slow response, I think FEMA's response under Director Brown was really just "equal-opportunity incompetence." And/or, as Mr. Witt pointed out, FEMA's budget was essentially eviscerated during its move into the Deparment of Homeland Security. I haven't read up on what happened there, but it could be that the whole Department's budget was essentially built upon FEMA's budget, leaving just "table scraps" for FEMA's traditional natural disaster functions.

Oh, and let me slip in here the background of the current FEMA Director Michael Brown -- you're now probably beginning to read and/or hear about his "resume," and how he was "asked to leave" the job he had before joining FEMA, and then getting what appears to be a purely "crony" appointment as FEMA director. So, make sure to read up on the details of that fine story.

In the end, it's very obvious to me that "someone" purely didn't take FEMA's mission as part of the federal govenment seriously. And this is the result. America CAN do better than this. America HAS done better, in the past.

[Titanium Dome]

but not in a good way.

Having Witt around will add some organization and competence, but what was the cost of the delay? It's all so very, very sad.

My GF and I made contributions, but how long will it take that money to help in the way we want it to? We talked about going to help, but decided against it because of the chaos of the organizers. Maybe now..

[DavidF]

...Having Witt around will add some organization and competence ..

For Lousiana anyway. They are the ones who requested his services.

[Zilch]

I personally don't feel like having a bunch of my tax dollars get dumped into New Orleans. My personal opinion is that would be throwing good money after bad. Unfortunately I have to go with the program.





"CLEAN FILL WANTED."

[Lancer]

"CLEAN FILL WANTED."







Absofreakinlutely! Fill that damn hole in!!! :applaud:

[louped garouv]

I don't normally care for Anne Rice (I waited on her a few times while living in NOLA),but a friend turned me on to this read .. and i figured it would be good to share with those interested. with all the racial issues and finger pointing .. its refreshing to read something like this.


What do people really know about New Orleans?
By Anne Rice

Do they take away with them an awareness that it has always been not only a great white metropolis but also a great black city, a city where African-Americans have come together again and again to form the strongest African-American culture in the land?

The first literary magazine ever published in Louisiana was the work of black men, French-speaking poets and writers who brought together their work in three issues of a little book called L'Album Littéraire. That was in the 1840's, and by that time the city had a prosperous class of free black artisans, sculptors, businessmen, property owners, skilled laborers in all fields. Thousands of slaves lived on their own in the city, too, making a living at various jobs, and sending home a few dollars to their owners in the country at the end of the month.

This is not to diminish the horror of the slave market in the middle of the famous St. Louis Hotel, or the injustice of the slave labor on plantations from one end of the state to the other. It is merely to say that it was never all "have or have not" in this strange and beautiful city. Later in the 19th century, as the Irish immigrants poured in by the thousands, filling the holds of ships that had emptied their cargoes of cotton in Liverpool, and as the German and Italian immigrants soon followed, a vital and complex culture emerged.

Huge churches went up to serve the great faith of the city's European-born Catholics; convents and schools and orphanages were built for the newly arrived and the struggling; the city expanded in all directions with new neighborhoods of large, graceful houses, or areas of more humble cottages, even the smallest of which, with their floor-length shutters and deep-pitched roofs, possessed an undeniable Caribbean charm.

Through this all, black culture never declined in Louisiana. In fact, New Orleans became home to blacks in a way, perhaps, that few other American cities have ever been. Dillard University and Xavier University became two of the most outstanding black colleges in America; and once the battles of desegregation had been won, black New Orleanians entered all levels of life, building a visible middle class that is absent in far too many Western and Northern American cities to this day.

The influence of blacks on the music of the city and the nation is too immense and too well known to be described. It was black musicians coming down to New Orleans for work who nicknamed the city "the Big Easy" because it was a place where they could always find a job. But it's not fair to the nature of New Orleans to think of jazz and the blues as the poor man's music, or the music of the oppressed.

Something else was going on in New Orleans. The living was good there. The clock ticked more slowly; people laughed more easily; people kissed; people loved; there was joy. Which is why so many New Orleanians, black and white, never went north. They didn't want to leave a place where they felt at home in neighborhoods that dated back centuries; they didn't want to leave families whose rounds of weddings, births and funerals had become the fabric of their lives. They didn't want to leave a city where tolerance had always been able to outweigh prejudice, where patience had always been able to outweigh rage. They didn't want to leave a place that was theirs.

And so New Orleans prospered, slowly, unevenly, but surely - home to Protestants and Catholics, including the Irish parading through the old neighborhood on St. Patrick's Day as they hand out cabbages and potatoes and onions to the eager crowds; including the Italians, with their lavish St. Joseph's altars spread out with cakes and cookies in homes and restaurants and churches every March; including the uptown traditionalists who seek to preserve the peace and beauty of the Garden District; including the Germans with their clubs and traditions; including the black population playing an ever increasing role in the city's civic affairs.

Now nature has done what the Civil War couldn't do. Nature has done what the labor riots of the 1920's couldn't do. Nature had done what "modern life" with its relentless pursuit of efficiency couldn't do. It has done what racism couldn't do, and what segregation couldn't do either. Nature has laid the city waste - with a scope that brings to mind the end of Pompeii.

I share this history for a reason - and to answer questions that have arisen these last few days. Almost as soon as the cameras began panning over the rooftops, and the helicopters began chopping free those trapped in their attics, a chorus of voices rose. "Why didn't they leave?" people asked both on and off camera. "Why did they stay there when they knew a storm was coming?" One reporter even asked me, "Why do people live in such a place?"

Then as conditions became unbearable, the looters took to the streets. Windows were smashed, jewelry snatched, stores broken open, water and food and televisions carried out by fierce and uninhibited crowds. Now the voices grew even louder. How could these thieves loot and pillage in a time of such crisis? How could people shoot one another? Because the faces of those drowning and the faces of those looting were largely black faces, race came into the picture. What kind of people are these, the people of New Orleans, who stay in a city about to be flooded, and then turn on one another?

Well, here's an answer. Thousands didn't leave New Orleans because they couldn't leave. They didn't have the money. They didn't have the vehicles. They didn't have any place to go. They are the poor, black and white, who dwell in any city in great numbers; and they did what they felt they could do - they huddled together in the strongest houses they could find. There was no way to up and leave and check into the nearest Ramada Inn.

What's more, thousands more who could have left stayed behind to help others. They went out in the helicopters and pulled the survivors off rooftops; they went through the flooded streets in their boats trying to gather those they could find. Meanwhile, city officials tried desperately to alleviate the worsening conditions in the Superdome, while makeshift shelters and hotels and hospitals struggled.

And where was everyone else during all this? Oh, help is coming, New Orleans was told. We are a rich country. Congress is acting. Someone will come to stop the looting and care for the refugees. And it's true: eventually, help did come. But how many times did Gov. Kathleen Blanco have to say that the situation was desperate? How many times did Mayor Ray Nagin have to call for aid? Why did America ask a city cherished by millions and excoriated by some, but ignored by no one, to fight for its own life for so long? That's my question.

I know that New Orleans will win its fight in the end. I was born in the city and lived there for many years. It shaped who and what I am. Never have I experienced a place where people knew more about love, about family, about loyalty and about getting along than the people of New Orleans. It is perhaps their very gentleness that gives them their endurance.

They will rebuild as they have after storms of the past; and they will stay in New Orleans because it is where they have always lived, where their mothers and their fathers lived, where their churches were built by their ancestors, where their family graves carry names that go back 200 years. They will stay in New Orleans where they can enjoy a sweetness of family life that other communities lost long ago.

But to my country I want to say this: During this crisis you failed us. You looked down on us; you dismissed our victims; you dismissed us. You want our Jazz Fest, you want our Mardi Gras, you want our cooking and our music. Then when you saw us in real trouble, when you saw a tiny minority preying on the weak among us, you called us "Sin City," and turned your backs. Well, we are a lot more than all that. And though we may seem the most exotic, the most atmospheric and, at times, the most downtrodden part of this land, we are still part of it. We are Americans. We are you.

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks for sharing that... I had no idea Anne Rice could actually write.:D It is nice to get a sense of history of the place that isn't the sort of thing you get bottled up in the 30 sec. news cycles.

I do take issue with her saying that America turned her back on New Orleans though... I have heard that certain nut bags have blamed this on the gays and "wild" lifestyle of NO, but we get that here in SF all the time too and just shrug it off as the spouting off of close minded ignorance. Beyond those few I think we all looked on in horror and asked why isn't our system working and how can we help... I don't think the average American simply turned our back.

Widget

[louped garouv]

Thanks for sharing that... I had no idea Anne Rice could actually write.:D It is nice to get a sense of history of the place that isn't the sort of thing you get bottled up in the 30 sec. news cycles.

I do take issue with her saying that America turned her back on New Orleans though... I have heard that certain nut bags have blamed this on the gays and "wild" lifestyle of NO, but we get that here in SF all the time too and just shrug it off as the spouting off of close minded ignorance. Beyond those few I think we all looked on in horror and asked why isn't our system working and how can we help... I don't think the average American simply turned our back.

Widget

I don't really care for her writings either, because of her there are now vampire tours in NOLA, talk about blasphemy -- ghost, voodoo, general evil tours = yes, typical of NOLA. Vampires in NOLA are a direct result of the writings of Ms. Rice....

I also agree that the average american did not turn away from NOLA.... she isn't known for being the most emotionally stable person.....

[Ian Mackenzie]

Thanks for sharing that... I had no idea Anne Rice could actually write.:D It is nice to get a sense of history of the place that isn't the sort of thing you get bottled up in the 30 sec. news cycles.

I do take issue with her saying that America turned her back on New Orleans though... I have heard that certain nut bags have blamed this on the gays and "wild" lifestyle of NO, but we get that here in SF all the time too and just shrug it off as the spouting off of close minded ignorance. Beyond those few I think we all looked on in horror and asked why isn't our system working and how can we help... I don't think the average American simply turned our back.

Widget


I don't know that is in fact the case or the issue.

Commentators are starting to analyse America and compare this to other similar events globally. What stands out is the extreme poverty and the stark distribution of wealth, the racial tensions, and the everyman for himself mentality...the gun...bascially the social economic backdrop is a sewer. It's as though in many centres in the USA, the nation is on the verge of anchy and it would only take a small imbalance to create mayhem.

A vistor from the USA said to us as we drove through the city....where are the slums, where are the slums......?

What, we don't have any!

Why does America have these problems.......?

This is the question international commentators are raising and the sentiment in Washington over who was left down there is well what would you expect.

Perhaps turning the back has already been turned!

Meanwhile, officials are screwing each other over on who should be at the head of an organisation chart while the poor devils are screaming for help.

You really can't blame them for thinking they were left for dead, they were by world standards but then America is different.

Ian

[Zilch]

Anne Rice skillfully documents the cultural intangibles that make New Orleans one of America's most beloved cities.

The "Clean Fill Wanted" approach is not a bad one. There's going to be little salvageable of those structures after having been underwater for so long. Think "Archeology."

Enough clean fill could come down the Mississippi on barges to do the job in short order. Contemporary low-rise frame construction does well on fill. It could all be mapped and rebuilt in kind 20 feet higher.

Think "Sustainability." We know how to do this.

['Course, that'd take some ORGANIZATION....]

[Zilch]

"Bureaucracy has murdered people in the greater New Orleans area. And bureaucracy needs to stand trial before Congress today," Aaron Broussard, president of Jefferson Parish, said on CBS' "The Early Show."

"So I'm asking Congress, please investigate this now. Take whatever idiot they have at the top of whatever agency and give me a better idiot. Give me a caring idiot. Give me a sensitive idiot. Just don't give me the same idiot."

[louped garouv]

I grew up in Broussard's district, in Kenner -- I gotta say that I have NEVER heard him break down or speak out like he has this last week.... he is a really nice guy, normally...
From what I have heard on the wwl webcast, seems as if FEMA cut the local emergency communications to hook theirs up, and they also turned semis full of water/food away saying it wasn't necessary..... :banghead:

it will be interesting to see how the chips fall....

[scott fitlin]

They are now calling for the director of FEMA to be fired!

President Bush just said on TV he will launch an investigation into the response time of the rescue and aid ! WOW, great results player he is!

Alot too little, much too late!

[louped garouv]

So, I don't know in what capacity Mr. Witt is serving, but he talked about how he was working with current director Michael Brown to improve the response to the disaster in New Orleans.



from what I understand he is serving as a consultant to the State of La. -- Blanco would not give control to the FEDs citing lack of competence thus far -- but that was just what I could hear from a pretty garbled webcast.....


And I think they should all be fired...

would Bush still be in office.... ummm ummm, nevermind ;)



from the AP.....
Witt Says La. Crisis 'Our Worst Nightmare'






The Associated Press
Sunday, September 4, 2005; 10:09 PM

BATON ROUGE, La. -- James Lee Witt, the former Federal Emergency Management Agency director hired to advise Louisiana's governor, described the crisis Sunday in the hurricane-ravaged state as "our worst nightmare."

He said he couldn't estimate how long the recovery would take.

In New Orleans alone, the levees will have to be fixed and the water pumped out. After that, crews will have to get in to assess the damage and determine which structures are too unstable to remain. Utilities are down in several areas. There's also historic preservation to think about, he said Sunday on MSNBC.

"This was our worst nightmare," Witt said. "You could point the finger at anybody and everybody. ... I don't think they turned a blind eye. I don't think the state did. I don't think the mayor did. I think they worked as fast as they could to do whatever they could."

Before Witt became director, FEMA was criticized for its slow response to Hurricanes Andrew and Hugo. With Witt in charge in 1993-2001, the agency won praise for its vigorous reaction to the Midwest floods and the 1994 Northridge earthquake in Los Angeles.

Witt repeated his criticism Sunday that the reorganization that put FEMA under the Department of Homeland Security had hurt the agency's ability to deal with natural disasters. He said a lot of resources also had been depleted by the war in Iraq.

Witt now heads the crisis and emergency management consulting firm James Lee Witt Associates. He said he was called by the governor Thursday and would stay in Louisiana as long as needed.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco said that when she told FEMA Director Mike Brown she was hiring Witt, "he said, `That is absolutely the right thing to do. He will make a huge difference.'"

[thoots]

louped garouv,

Hey, thanks for the info -- that sure helps fill a few holes in my understanding of things! For once, I agree with FEMA Director Brown -- getting James Lee Witt in there IS the best thing anyone could do at this point!

[aust-ted]

Just read this thread.

Having visited N'Awlins several years ago and been impressed by the city and its proud inhabitants, including a visit to Preservation Hall, I was deeply saddened by what has happened.

Must admit the contributions in this forum on this topic are generally of a very high standard and give some great insights, especially the bits about James Lee Witt of whom I had no previous knowledge.

I support what Ian wrote about the 1974 tropical cyclone Tracey which destroyed Darwin. For once, the Australian Govt did the right thing and immediately appointed a General to take control. The leadership made a difference.

Regards
Ted Riesz

[louped garouv]

I lived in Biloxi during Camile and this one is worse. I haven't been able to get in contact with my sister who still lives there. No power, no phone, no cell service, no water...it's bad, very bad. It's sad to see pictures of places I use to hang out leveled to the ground. It's like loosing a part of your childhood.

have you gotten word from your sister?

I have heard from 80% of the ppl I am trying to get ahold of... this waiting game sucks :biting:



***note to self -- keep in better contact with friends; you never know when something will impede communications with loved ones*****

[louped garouv]

I apologize in advance to my readers who subscribed to this newsletter for cruise news and deals only--you may wish to skip straight to the bottom. I want to begin today with what is happening here in Houston, in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

It's 4:45 a.m. on Friday, September 2nd, and tension is rising at the Astrodome in Houston.

The governor of Texas and the mayor of Houston have opened the Astrodome to evacuees from Louisiana. The enormous ground level of the Astrodome has already filled to absolute capacity with thousands of small cots, and every one is taken. There are not enough to go around, and some hold mother and child or two children. Many others sleep on blankets in the hallways that ring every level of the dome, and hundreds more try to sleep in the hard wooden chairs meant to house sports fans for three hours at a time.

Against this surreal backdrop, a lonely figure trudges the uneven aisles holding a cardboard sign aloft with the names of loved ones who are missing.

Our small group of volunteers has just arrived to help serve breakfast in the Astrodome, but we quickly learn that the plan has changed. For the safety of the untold thousands already here, the fire marshal has closed the Astrodome to new arrivals, but the evacuation is chaotic, and the buses just keep coming.

"All those buses still have people on them," someone with a walkie-talkie tells us, pointing to a line of darkened motor coaches stretching out of sight around the dome. "We're opening Reliant Arena (a separate building nearby), but the situation there is tense. We need you over there."

We load tables and supplies into two trucks and walk from the Astrodome to Reliant Arena, where we pass an impromptu medical "clinic" filled with sick and injured evacuees and bleary-eyed doctors, nurses, paramedics and police officers.

On the far side of the building, we arrive at a room where we will serve breakfast, and through a long wall of glass, we get our first glimpse of the new arrivals outside. Standing ten deep, in lines that run the length of our large room and stretch out of sight, these are the first who arrived after the Astrodome’s closing. Out there in the darkness, thousands more are still in their buses. No one on this side of the glass knows what they have already endured to get here. Many have spent the prior four days in the sweltering heat and stench of the Superdome, the closest thing to hell on earth.

Now they have heard that the Astrodome is full and do not know whether they will be allowed to stay or be bused to another city, or to another state. They are at their wits' end. Tempers have flared, emotions are high.

Within an hour we are ready to serve and the doors are opened. As evacuees enter the building, their identities are recorded, and they proceed immediately to our three serving lines for their first hot meal in days: two waffles, two sausage patties, one pat of butter, one serving of syrup, one box of juice and one big spoonful of grits.

During the next five hours the line moves continuously. Word filters in that Houston has opened its convention center to evacuees as well, and some of the volunteers leave our building and the Astrodome to help out downtown. Hundreds of other volunteers pour in to replace them, including at least 25 travel counselors and the top management from Vacations To Go.

I've never volunteered in such an enormous operation coming together on the fly, but I have only good things to say about the supervisor from food service company Aramark, and the people I could not see behind the scenes. We knew the folks on the other side of the glass were desperately hungry, and we worried among ourselves whether the food would last. None of us knew how much food there was, or how many waited outside, but we did know that no one had expected this huge new group for breakfast. We ran out of some things, for a while, but we never ran out of everything at the same time, and the food line never stopped.

By 11:15, every one of our neighbors from New Orleans had entered the facility and received a hot meal.

I will not soon forget the faces of the people as they came through the line. Many were dazed or grieving, and some still wore the clothes they had on when Katrina struck. Some wore bandages and struggled to hold their plates steady. Others tried to smile, and made a point of expressing their gratitude and shaking our hands in the midst of having lost everything.

The little old ladies, with their sugary Nawlins drawls of "Thank you, darlin'," were truly a sign of Amazing Grace.

But this was just the first meal of the day, in the first week of the first month that evacuees will need help. It’s a scenario that is playing out across Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and Florida.

The Deep South is in trouble, and the need is as wide and as deep as the Mississippi.

[Lancer]

Hurricane Katrina could cost the U.S. over 400,000 jobs and shave up to 1 percent off the nation's economic growth in the second half of the year, the Congressional Budget Office said.

Oh that's ok. :) I'm sure all those jobs were going to be outsourced to India or China anyway so no real loss...

[louped garouv]

A must read...... This is something I read this morning and it really hit "HOME". I love my hometown... It has put a smile on my face and warmth in my heart.

Thank you Chris Rose

From columnist Chris Rose of The Times-Picayune
www.nola.com (http://www.nola.com/)

Dear America,

I suppose we should introduce ourselves: We're South Louisiana.

We have arrived on your doorstep on short notice and we apologize for that, but we never were much for waiting around for invitations. We're not much on formalities like that.

And we might be staying around your town for a while, enrolling in your schools and looking for jobs, so we wanted to tell you a few things about us. We know you didn't ask for this and neither did we, so we're just going to have to make the best of it.

First of all, we thank you. For your money, your water, your food, your prayers, your boats and buses and the men and women of your National Guards, fire departments, hospitals and everyone else who has come to our rescue.

We're a fiercely proud and independent people, and we don't cotton much to outside interference, but we're not ashamed to accept help when we need it. And right now, we need it.

Just don't get carried away. For instance, once we get around to fishing again, don't try to tell us what kind of lures work best in your waters.

We're not going to listen. We're stubborn that way.

You probably already know that we talk funny and listen to strange music and eat things you'd probably hire an exterminator to get out of your yard.

We dance even if there's no radio. We drink at funerals. We talk too much and laugh too loud and live too large and, frankly, we're suspicious of others who don't.

But we'll try not to judge you while we're in your town.

Everybody loves their home, we know that. But we love South Louisiana with a ferocity that borders on the pathological. Sometimes we bury our dead in LSU sweatshirts.

Often we don't make sense. You may wonder why, for instance - if we could only carry one small bag of belongings with us on our journey to your state - why in God's name did we bring a pair of shrimp boots?

We can't really explain that. It is what it is.

You've probably heard that many of us stayed behind. As bad as it is, many of us cannot fathom a life outside of our border, out in that place we call Elsewhere.

The only way you could understand that is if you have been there, and so many of you have. So you realize that when you strip away all the craziness and bars and parades and music and architecture and all that hooey, really, the best thing about where we come from is us.

We are what made this place a national treasure. We're good people. And don't be afraid to ask us how to pronounce our names. It happens all the time.

When you meet us now and you look into our eyes, you will see the saddest story ever told. Our hearts are broken into a thousand pieces.

But don't pity us. We're gonna make it. We're resilient. After all, we've been rooting for the Saints for 35 years. That's got to count for something.

OK, maybe something else you should know is that we make jokes at inappropriate times.

But what the hell.

And one more thing: In our part of the country, we're used to having visitors. It's our way of life.

So when all this is over and we move back home, we will repay to you the hospitality and generosity of spirit you offer to us in this season of our despair.

That is our promise. That is our faith.

[Audiobeer]

Hurricane Katrina could cost the U.S. over 400,000 jobs and shave up to 1 percent off the nation's economic growth in the second half of the year, the Congressional Budget Office said.

Oh that's ok. :) I'm sure all those jobs were going to be outsourced to India or China anyway so no real loss...

I'm sure those folks don't give a shit right now. They are pretty close to being in a 3rd world country right now.

[paragon]

After this terrible help i think why you voted him ??
This is a desaster !
6 Days !!! That cannot be !!

Eckhard

[Ian Mackenzie]

This whole deal seems to be washing in new AND different directions with each passing day...the blamming matches, the final forced evacuations, the E bacteria threat, the spread of refugee's national...., the 3 undercover graduates.....its a real theatre for CNN and the others.

I really wanted to see New Orleans at some stage.....that has definately gone bye the bye and out of respect I there are other priorities than tourism under the circumstances.

Ian

[Mr. Widget]

I really wanted to see New Orleans at some stage.....that has definately gone bye the bye and out of respect I there are other priorities than tourism under the circumstances.


I am sure in time they will be encouraging tourism to bring back some needed jobs and tax income. The French Quarter seems to have fared pretty well and I am sure will be back to some degree before next year's Mardi Gras.

Widget

[aust-ted]

I am sure in time they will be encouraging tourism to bring back some needed jobs and tax income. The French Quarter seems to have fared pretty well and I am sure will be back to some degree before next year's Mardi Gras.

Widget]

Widget, makes sense to me. Think they should be able to get the commercial and tourist businesses up pretty quick provided they can find a way to temporarily house the displaced workforce nearby while they work out how to replace the destroyed housing. That is what I would do if I was in charge. I am sure most of the evacuees want to get back as soon as possible and start earning incomes etc.

Regards
Ted

PS Did you know that a sizable part of the world's zinc metal supply is currently stored in New Orleans warehouses? How is that for a useless bit of info.

[scott fitlin]

The French quarter seems to have faired pretty well. Im sure they will fix what needs fixin, and if the Govt needs to provide fast housing, Im sure they could put up Quanset huts for temporary housing, like they`ve done after major wars for the returning veterans.

Its a workable temporary solution that would help many families!

[Mr. Widget]

I was sent this link from a friend... if it is half true it is 100% damning. It certainly is worded in a manner designed to outrage and condemn, but it appears to be backed up with sources. Obviously the addition of shoe shopping sprees and fund raisers is unnecessary.

Read it with a grain of salt.

http://thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline/


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

Obviously the addition of shoe shopping sprees and fund raisers is unnecessary.



Widget

Except it shows the callousness and naive indifference to the real issues of the day. I don't care what your office is, if your nation is in the throes of a national disaster, your ass ought to be working, not playing or fundraising for yourself. :barf:

[John]

I just saw Nancy Pelosi on MSNBC and she was in a meeting today at the white house. She claims she asked the president point blank if he was going to fire the head of FEMA? He replyed "why would I do that" :banghead:

She replyed for every thing that has gone wrong?
He replyed "What went Wrong" :banghead:

You have to admit this guy is consistent!!!:banghead:

[Mr. Widget]

Nancy Pelosi is my Congress woman and is certainly a politician too.
She may be right, but jumping in the President's face is no way to get things done.

As has been pointed out... many people came up short here. Let's give them time to save more stranded people, begin repairing the infrastructure, and figure out what went wrong.

I doubt anyone will be making statements like "What went wrong?" once the facts start coming in.


Widget

[Figge]

guess he didnt see it coming....

[Audiobeer]

Politics baby, Dean, Papussyo. It's so easy to criticize and point fingers, use the race card. It's amazing how a little water makes these issues flow to the top and they become so knowledgible Poor play on words sorry). They suck big time. I love how they are so good at helping this nation pull together. The director of the Red Cross was on National television last night stating they were ready to go in the next day but the Louisiana Governor would not allow it. If the Red Cross would have been allowed in there from day One, none of this shit would be tearing this nation apart. Makes me sick. :(

[Don McRitchie]

Jon Stewart: So no one's going to be held accountable for this at all?

Ed Helms: No. In fact, if history is any indication, they'll be hard-pressed finding enough medals to pin on these guys. My sources tell me the head of FEMA will be dipped in bronze and turned into an award to be given to other officials.

[Don McRitchie]

Politics baby, Dean, Papussyo. It's so easy to criticize and point fingers, use the race card. It's amazing how a little water makes these issues flow to the top and they become so knowledgible Poor play on words sorry). They suck big time. I love how they are so good at helping this nation pull together. The director of the Red Cross was on National television last night stating they were ready to go in the next day but the Louisiana Governor would not allow it. If the Red Cross would have been allowed in there from day One, none of this shit would be tearing this nation apart. Makes me sick. :(

I don’t mean to pick on you Audiobeer, but I do have to take exception to this post. It’s not my intention to assign blame since I am in no position to know all of the details of who was at fault and why. However, at a marco level, the following is undeniable.

That thousands of people have died as a result of Katrina and its aftermath is undeniable.

That the vast majority of those that were trapped, suffered or died in NOLA were black and poor is undeniable.

That the federal, state and local governments were all unprepared is undeniable.

That after years and hundreds of billions of dollars spent on home security since 9/11, the country was neither secure or prepared is undeniable.

That the economic consequences of Katrina will be widespread and long lasting is undeniable.

The disaster in NOLA is a failure of unprecedented proportion. No disaster of this scope and magnitude is ever the result of one single factor (e.g. letting the Red Cross in on a given day). It was years in the making and the culmination of untold numbers of failures (large and small) by untold numbers of people in positions of responsibility. The problem is that the US is still in the midst of this disaster. There is a huge amount of work that remains to be done and the economic fallout has yet to be fully developed or understood.

What bothers me is that there is no attempt at accountability. The talking point about “playing the blame game” is already out and repeated endlessly. Seeking accountability is not playing the blame game. The incompetence that led to the catastrophic events to date is still in place and still causing damage as reported on an almost hourly basis. Conversely, the “blame game” talking point has only one purpose - to minimize political damage by stifling any objective examination of what went wrong while there is still time to do something about it.

Those repeating the “blame game” mantra are the same people trying to ensure that a neutral and objective examination of this disaster will never occur. President Bush has already announced that he will lead the investigation of his own administration. The GOP leaders in Congress have refused to consider an independent investigation and have instead rolled up all investigations into one bicameral committee that they have stated will be controlled using majority rules. It is obvious that there is only one goal – to protect those in power.

As a Canadian, looking at this disaster from the outside, I can see why the world reaction is one of shock and dismay. The country that constantly reminds us of its wealth, its power and its role as a beacon of freedom has to counter the images of Katrina. The images that I saw convey poverty and neglect in a very specific segment of its population, feebleness in response to a catastrophe that was anticipated and planned for, and attempts to stifle the democratic debate on how to address the failures. Personally, I hope these images are illusory, but given the events unfolding in front of us, I am not optimistic.

Don

P.S. Deriding criticism and finger pointing before leveling a double barrelled blast at the Louisiana Governor is a tad self defeating.

[Zilch]

It's good to see that the Mayor now has a plan:

"Everybody OUT!"

Truth be told, the water's not as dangerous as he makes it out to be, expecially in those area where there isn't any.

[It'd be good if he turned off the gas, tho....]

[louped garouv]

It's good to see that the Mayor now has a plan:

"Everybody OUT!"

Truth be told, the water's not as dangerous as he makes it out to be, expecially in those area where there isn't any.

It'd be good if he turned off the gas, tho....

the diehards down there (ppl who always ride out the storms) are calling this decree 'knee jerk'

it is beyond me why he wants to make the ppl in dry areas that are helping save lives and clean the city leave.... btu then again NOLA is liek a whoel different country -- especially now.....

on a good note, seems as if Jefferson Parish (kenner, metairie, etc) residents may get back home sooner than expected.... sounds like the cleanup is really picking up steam in Jefferson....

Jeff Parish could reopen sooner than expected

From NOLA.com Times Picayune Katrina news blog...
Thursday, 9:20 a.m.
Jefferson Parish officials are not yet ready to stray from the 3- to 4-week timeline for residents to return, but that possibly could change soon, Emergency Management Director Walter Maestri said Thursday morning.

"It might be earlier than we thought," he said in an interview on WWL-TV. "We certainly hope it will be. (But) that estimate is still three to four weeks."

Maestri said signs of life are surfacing, such as a Wendy's restaurant and a Walgreen's drugstore opening on the West Bank.

He said the situation is improving rapidly in Kenner and Harahan is in good shape in East Jefferson, while work parishwide on the water, electrical and sewer systems also is going well.

"We are making real progress there," he said. "There are literally thousands of crews here . . . The West Bank is improving quite rapidly."

Responding to a question about the parish pump stations during the storm, Maestri said the pump operators in the large stations were removed once conditions became dangerous. At that point, those stations were shut down, he said.

While some smaller, electrical pumps in the parish can operate remotely, he said the huge, diesel pumps require operators, who returned about 10 hours after they were evacuated.

"So it is not true that we shut down all the pumps," he said. "It is true we shut down the larger pumps."

[DavidF]

... Personally, I hope these images are illusory, but given the events unfolding in front of us, I am not optimistic...

Don

Don, I do not agree with the undeniable facts, though some may be shown to be so in time.

That thousands of people have died as a result of Katrina and its aftermath is undeniable.

No one knows for certain. That is what is predicted.

That the vast majority of those that were trapped, suffered or died in NOLA were black and poor is undeniable.

This could be predicted given that a high majority of the population is black. Is it also an undeniable fact that the whites in the city, who were also poor, were able to evacuate in some significant higher proportion of blacks? The pain and suffering throughout the region will likely follow the demographic spectrum that exists in the area.

That after years and hundreds of billions of dollars spent on home security since 9/11, the country was unprepared for this disaster is undeniable.

This may be true. I have experienced hurricanes. Those did not compare to Katrina, but how many have? Compared to my emotions watching incredible sight of large planes crashing into buildings and the destruction that followed, I would not have argued that we needed any more attention to natural disaster and any less to terrorism. That is, before this storm hit.

That the economic consequences of Katrina will be widespread and long lasting is undeniable.

I will yield to this point if we are talking only about N.O. and the gulf coast. There certainly will be a huge impact on this region in the near term. The long-term prospects seem good to me. The core of N.O. was not damaged. It is a significant shipping port and will remain a great tourist destination unless this episode just absolutely kills the soul of the city. Many of the long term residents go several generations back and probably have every intention of staying. The rebuilding of homes and businesses will spark new jobs. Low-interest loans will continue to be available for several years. The state and local politicians will be able to bring in new Federal dollars to area that already receives a greater share than anywhere else in that region.

David F

[Don McRitchie]

You're missing the larger picture. The list of undeniables was solely a means of illustrating that the aftermath and response to Katrina was an unprecedented f*ckup on a colossal scale. More importantly, there continues to be an active effort by some to not only leave the root causes unaddressed, but to bury their very existence. If it is your position that the response to this catastrophe remains fully within the realm of what is reasonable and that the long term ramifications are not very significant, then there is nothing to discuss. However, I would never expect Americans to set such a low bar on what their nation could accomplish.

[scott fitlin]

You're missing the larger picture. The list of undeniables was solely a means of illustrating that the aftermath and response to Katrina was an unprecedented f*ckup on a colossal scale. More importantly, there continues to be an active effort by some to not only leave the root causes unaddressed, but to bury their very existence. If it is your position that the response to this catastrophe remains fully within the realm of what is reasonable and that there are no significant long term ramifications, then there is nothing to discuss. However, I would never expect Americans to set such a low bar on what their nation could accomplish.That the aftermath and response to katrina WAS such a F*ckup on such a colossal scale does make one wonder WHY it was such a F*ckup?

Since 9/11 has been mentioned, everyone from everywhere got here to NYC, AS FAST AS THEY COULD, including the President! Granted 9/11 encompassed nowhere near the giant scale of Katrinas destruction, but then again, yes it did, of a different type of caliber, but how could Govt, all of it, local, state, and federal not repond as quickly as they could? Or as many are saying , WHY did they not respond as quickly as they could? All those people, regardless of who or what they were, were left there with NOTHING!

Had Katrina hit Washington DC, how fast would there have been every kind of rescue and emergency service there lickety split?

I, as an American, of 43 years of age, have watched my govt make major mistakes, and it only seems to get worse!

[louped garouv]

Had Katrina hit Washington DC, how fast would there have been every kind of rescue and emergency service there lickety split?

or a same scale natural disaster that hit Chicago, LA, San Fran, NYC, SoBe.....
I also bet there wouldn't be talk of "f*ck it -- why rebuild there?"

but truth be told, the ppl who live on the gulf coast are a hardy type of folk -- the survivors will be alright.

Just a few hours ago, while on lunch, I ran into a guy w/ Louisiana plates on his vehicle.... I stopped to talk to him, asking if he was displaced due to the storm.... he replied that he was... we talked for a bit -- I told him where I grew up and axed (if you've been to NOLA you get the joke :D ) if I could help... yada yada yada...

and then he said the most heartning thing I have heard in a while was when he said, "don't believe a word of what is being said on the TV, Mardi Gras will be HUGE in '06"

the ppl from down there got it covered, even if our govts. (state, local, fed) suck

[edgewound]

My subject line is the order of how procedures are carried out in this great land of ours. What about the other regions that took direct hits from Katrina? Did their evacuation/preparedness plans actually get implemented? Some towns were completely wiped out...and they aren't getting a fraction of the news coverage....why? NOLA is more romantic to the rest of the world. Mayor Nagin did order a complete evacuation of about 500,000 people and the busses and other ground transportation to be used for evacuating the people that needed it didn't get utilized...the plan was abandoned locally. President Bush, it was reported, urged Gov. Blanco to declare a local state of emergency and act on it....but it didn't happen...she had time to mobilize local National Guard and ask for outside help...it didn't happen. On top of all this, here comes Katrina packing the largest natural disaster pummeling that this country has NEVER seen before. Let's look at race a little...Jesse Jackson complained that no blacks were in charge of the response. The Lt. Gen. Honore is a very honorable black AMERICAN that came in and took charge immediately to restore what order could be restored. The USA took a big hit with this one...Yes we help the rest of the world, and we're very good at helping ourselves. During 9/11 the whole place wasn't under 10+ feet of water, and responses could be mobilized immediately. The US has a history of reacting to events rather than being able to prevent major catastrophes. When will we all learn that the human race is ultimately in the hands of the forces of nature that created us, and deal with the fact that we must come together and help get through this without fighting, and not worry about the latest news poll? We're all responsible for the cleanup and restoration. It is heartening to see a substantial amount of aid to start arriving from around the world.

I'll stop now

[scott fitlin]

and then he said the most heartning thing I have heard in a while was when he said, "don't believe a word of what is being said on the TV, Mardi Gras will be HUGE in '06"

the ppl from down there got it covered, even if our govts. (state, local, fed) suckThis I do believe, N.O. is a way of life, and one that will continue!

[Audiobeer]

I did not take a pot shot at The Govenor.....The Red Cross did. The image that everyone saw and caused all the anger and are nations emmbarresment was on that overpass where the RED CROSS WAS DENIED ENTRY BY THE STATE....that was the flash point that is a fact that will be the most damning. My consistant point from the very beginning has been that Everyone is bickering and pointing fingers while people die. What the hell does Race have to do with how the plan was implemented? On another point enviormentalists for years have fought the feds for years to upgrade canal levees and won barring what they felt would the destruction of the natural wetland forests. If you want to say it's race that caused these people to live there and they can't afford to go anywhere else, well you have an argument, but it isn't any single politicians fault...That's the American people. That has been an underlying problem and I will never no how to fix it other than make an ignorant statement like "Kill every racist and anyone in America that is able to work but won't because they would rather sit on thier ass and take a goverment check. The Blame game is great.....it has a purpose. Just imagine your hunting......a gun misfires while your taking a shit. Blows the artery open open the side of your buddies neck. While he's bleeding to hell everyone is standing around telling you what an asshole you are and your having to defend yourself because now they are beating the shit out of you and your buddy is near death pleading for help. That is the point I'm making. There will be plenty of time to assess why the gun went off and award damages and prosecute the negligent. This is politics in America and it sickens me. There will be plenty of time to assert blame after those in harms way are safe. Instead the leaders on both sides of the aisle are positioning thier party for political gain (at the expense of the folks in New Orleans) getting ready for the "SuperBowl" of politics in 2008 our national elections. That to me is racism! All the facts will come out in good time and We will see that everyone from local to Federal level screwed up. Please don't worry about insulting me with your candor, I have been married for 30 years and I'm used to it. :D I do feel that I am obviously almost alone in my opinion and accept that. I don't feel like you are pointing me out.

[/QUOTE]=Don McRitchie]I don’t mean to pick on you Audiobeer, but I do have to take exception to this post. It’s not my intention to assign blame since I am in no position to know all of the details of who was at fault and why. However, at a marco level, the following is undeniable.

That thousands of people have died as a result of Katrina and its aftermath is undeniable.

That the vast majority of those that were trapped, suffered or died in NOLA were black and poor is undeniable.

That the federal, state and local governments were all unprepared is undeniable.

That after years and hundreds of billions of dollars spent on home security since 9/11, the country was neither secure or prepared is undeniable.

That the economic consequences of Katrina will be widespread and long lasting is undeniable.

The disaster in NOLA is a failure of unprecedented proportion. No disaster of this scope and magnitude is ever the result of one single factor (e.g. letting the Red Cross in on a given day). It was years in the making and the culmination of untold numbers of failures (large and small) by untold numbers of people in positions of responsibility. The problem is that the US is still in the midst of this disaster. There is a huge amount of work that remains to be done and the economic fallout has yet to be fully developed or understood.

What bothers me is that there is no attempt at accountability. The talking point about “playing the blame game” is already out and repeated endlessly. Seeking accountability is not playing the blame game. The incompetence that led to the catastrophic events to date is still in place and still causing damage as reported on an almost hourly basis. Conversely, the “blame game” talking point has only one purpose - to minimize political damage by stifling any objective examination of what went wrong while there is still time to do something about it.

Those repeating the “blame game” mantra are the same people trying to ensure that a neutral and objective examination of this disaster will never occur. President Bush has already announced that he will lead the investigation of his own administration. The GOP leaders in Congress have refused to consider an independent investigation and have instead rolled up all investigations into one bicameral committee that they have stated will be controlled using majority rules. It is obvious that there is only one goal – to protect those in power.

As a Canadian, looking at this disaster from the outside, I can see why the world reaction is one of shock and dismay. The country that constantly reminds us of its wealth, its power and its role as a beacon of freedom has to counter the images of Katrina. The images that I saw convey poverty and neglect in a very specific segment of its population, feebleness in response to a catastrophe that was anticipated and planned for, and attempts to stifle the democratic debate on how to address the failures. Personally, I hope these images are illusory, but given the events unfolding in front of us, I am not optimistic.

Don

P.S. Deriding criticism and finger pointing before leveling a double barrelled blast at the Louisiana Governor is a tad self defeating.[/QUOTE]

[Audiobeer]

I wish I could have articulated it as well. Thank You! :)




My subject line is the order of how procedures are carried out in this great land of ours. What about the other regions that took direct hits from Katrina? Did their evacuation/preparedness plans actually get implemented? Some towns were completely wiped out...and they aren't getting a fraction of the news coverage....why? NOLA is more romantic to the rest of the world. Mayor Nagin did order a complete evacuation of about 500,000 people and the busses and other ground transportation to be used for evacuating the people that needed it didn't get utilized...the plan was abandoned locally. President Bush, it was reported, urged Gov. Blanco to declare a local state of emergency and act on it....but it didn't happen...she had time to mobilize local National Guard and ask for outside help...it didn't happen. On top of all this, here comes Katrina packing the largest natural disaster pummeling that this country has NEVER seen before. Let's look at race a little...Jesse Jackson complained that no blacks were in charge of the response. The Lt. Gen. Honore is a very honorable black AMERICAN that came in and took charge immediately to restore what order could be restored. The USA took a big hit with this one...Yes we help the rest of the world, and we're very good at helping ourselves. During 9/11 the whole place wasn't under 10+ feet of water, and responses could be mobilized immediately. The US has a history of reacting to events rather than being able to prevent major catastrophes. When will we all learn that the human race is ultimately in the hands of the forces of nature that created us, and deal with the fact that we must come together and help get through this without fighting, and not worry about the latest news poll? We're all responsible for the cleanup and restoration. It is heartening to see a substantial amount of aid to start arriving from around the world.

I'll stop now

[Titanium Dome]

How does the mayor demonstrate leadership? Order an impossible evacuation, then fail to implement most of it, including the part about transporting the poor and infirm. By not having a contingency communication plan for police and fire. By not having trained staff who can give good advice to people seeking safe haven. When everything goes to hell in a handcart, get on the radio and swear a lot and call people names.

How does the governor demosntrate leadership? Governor? What governor? You mean that deer in the headlights over there?

How does the FEMA director demonstrate leadership? What happened? When? Where? Are you sure? I'd better send someone to see if you're telling the truth. I don't want to act based on what might be a misrepresantation by people who don't work for me. Until I know differently, everything is under control. Things are going as planned.

How does the president demonstrate leadership? Let me go to CA first. Then let me go back to my ranch. Maybe I'll cut my vacation short by a day or two. Hey, on the way back to DC, let's fly real low over New Orleans and I'll look concerned. Say, looks pretty bad. Hmm, time for a meeting. Got to find out who we can pin this on. Better get Condi back from shoe shopping.

It's a circus of the stars. :rotfl:

[Mr. Widget]

President Bush, it was reported, urged Gov. Blanco to declare a local state of emergency and act on it....but it didn't happen...she had time to mobilize local National Guard and ask for outside help...it didn't happen.

I am not sure where you got those ideas... here is an excerpt from the official letter Gov. Blanco sent to the President... the date is 1 day before President Bush's urging... there is a link to the entire letter if you care to read it.

August 27, 2005


The President
The White House
Washington, D. C.

Through:
Regional Director
FEMA Region VI
800 North Loop 288
Denton, Texas 76209

Dear Mr. President:

Under the provisions of Section 501 ..., I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans ...the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976

I didn't see when Governor Blanco activated Louisiana's National Guard, but on Sunday August 28th... New Mexico Gov (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903/ap_on_re_us/katrina_national_guard). Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco help from his state’s National Guard on Sunday. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn’t come from Washington until late Thursday. (Sept. 1st)


Let's look at race a little...Jesse Jackson

Let's not look at the race bit... it is a stupid distraction. Jesse Jackson probably is sincere in his beliefs but this is not a race issue... it is perhaps a class issue, but I have a real hard time with the notion that this governmental neglect and or incompetence has in anyway been made more severe due to the overwhelming dominance of poor black families that live in the area.

Widget

[edgewound]

I am not sure where you got those ideas... here is an excerpt from the official letter Gov. Blanco sent to the President... the date is 1 day before President Bush's urging... there is a link to the entire letter if you care to read it.

August 27, 2005

I got the idea from the newspaper.

The President
The White House
Washington, D. C.

Through:
Regional Director
FEMA Region VI
800 North Loop 288
Denton, Texas 76209

Dear Mr. President:

Under the provisions of Section 501 ..., I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans ...the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina.

http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=976

I didn't see when Governor Blanco activated Louisiana's National Guard, but on Sunday August 28th... New Mexico Gov (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050903/ap_on_re_us/katrina_national_guard). Bill Richardson offered Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco help from his state’s National Guard on Sunday. Blanco accepted, but paperwork needed to get the troops en route didn’t come from Washington until late Thursday. (Sept. 1st)





Let's not look at the race bit... it is a stupid distraction. Jesse Jackson probably is sincere in his beliefs but this is not a race issue... it is perhaps a class issue, but I have a real hard time with the notion that this governmental neglect and or incompetence has in anyway been made more severe due to the overwhelming dominance of poor black families that live in the area.

Widget


I didn't bring up the race bit...Jesse Jackson did on national television. He slapped Lt. Gen. Honore in the face with his comments...because he was in a hurry to get on TV and put his usual racist spin on this catastrophe...and everything else for that matter.

[Mr. Widget]

[/color]I didn't bring up the race bit...Jesse Jackson did...

...and I wasn't calling you stupid for bringing it up. I think Jesse Jackson and the media circus are the stupid ones... we just don't need to be distracted by this sort of thing.

Widget

[Mr. Widget]

It's back to leadership.

I totally agree. I am not singling out the President as sole villain here. They all screwed up... some just screwed up bigger than others.

Widget

[edgewound]

Pursuant to 44 CFR § 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal.




I read the letter and here is an excerpt, that basically says the state can't do anything...and didn't...she declined her responsibility to act and in the meantime , it was her duty to take local control...precious time was wasted waiting for Federal paperwork to clear, and all the busses ended up under water.

[DavidF]

You're missing the larger picture. The list of undeniables was solely a means of illustrating that the aftermath and response to Katrina was an unprecedented f*ckup on a colossal scale. More importantly, there continues to be an active effort by some to not only leave the root causes unaddressed, but to bury their very existence. If it is your position that the response to this catastrophe remains fully within the realm of what is reasonable and that the long term ramifications are not very significant, then there is nothing to discuss. However, I would never expect Americans to set such a low bar on what their nation could accomplish.

There is in this country lately a lot of flying debris in terms of facts. So many people are pulling down bits of this and bits of that which when pulled together do not make a complete story. Many times this is to justify a particular bias or slant, context and truth be damned. But I did not take issue with your comments nor the implications of the points you raised other than to try to give some basis to a portion of the facts recited.

I do not accept what I saw in terms of a lack of response to the immediate and urgent needs of many of my fellow citizens. What I saw on those early days was only a part of what was happening on those days, in those hours. I was given a picture of events created by the news coverage. The stories were compelling and very disquieting but did they portray the total picture? I don’t know, yet.

I have tried not to dwell on the whys and why-nots because I have a concern for the continued support for these people. There is much to do and plan for and so much that could still go wrong. I am not influenced so much by words or expressed feelings as much as action. Oh yes, there appears to be real lack of critical action before, during and after the Hurricane. So where do we start? Who do we fire? Will that fix the problems or cause more delays? Will this cause more people to become defensive or unable to make critical decisions? I don’t know. Was the f*@kup on the scale of the disaster that preceded it? Well, we haven’t yet measured the scope of the disaster but some have already measured, weighed, packaged and delivered to the world the newest and biggest-to-date f*@kup. So if many of us who have not taken the bait do not seem publicly riled and outraged to the degree befitting the biggest-to-date f*@kup, do not be too quick to assume that we have laid down on the matter.

David F

[Mr. Widget]

I read the letter and here is an excerpt, that basically says the state can't do anything...and didn't...she declined her responsibility to act and in the meantime , it was her duty to take local control...precious time was wasted waiting for Federal paperwork to clear, and all the busses ended up under water.As I posted above. They all screwed up!

However, I am not sure I'd interpret that section quite the way you have.

Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Some members may have thought my earlier posts were pointed, hash and put me on the ignore list but possibly not all it seems.

The most incredible story even if staged was the 3 young graduates who went into the convention centre several times and rescued people. Perhaps more journalist should mount their own rescue missions.

The must be very embarrassing.

Lets see our China handles her 600K evacuation.

Ian

[Don McRitchie]

Actually, you were right in stating it is getting to be harsh. I don't think I'm doing this forum any positive good in pursuing it so I've deleted my last post and I am bugging out of this thread.

Don

[Mr. Widget]

It is difficult not to get, harsh, riled, excited, etc. when people are dying... whatever the cause. Katrina has proven to be a national tragedy on so many levels.

Widget

[Robh3606]

Hello Ian

I think it's good to get outside views. I like the BBC more balanced and professional than our own media. No one want's to play the blame/name game now because of the focus. No one's going to step-up and say, "You know I could have done more" In 3 weeks after a couple of meetings, speeches and prayer groups all will be forgoten by most as the next crisis comes into view and the focus will change. A year from now after the congessional review of the procedures it will get a 2 minute spot on the evening news and page 5 in the Times no suffering souls to show. Then they will get the better levees they should have years ago. Remember we have someone really on top of things. With quotes like "No one expected the levee's to break". Did anyone in his cabinet brief him on what the hell is going on???? Didn't he get briefed on what the dangers were before the storm or was he the only person in the US not to read a newspaper or listen to the NOAA warnings. Next crisis don't worry he will put someone right on it after he get's back from vacation. Sorry but there are no excusses.

You can make an arguement that we need to focus on helping the people and not what went wrong but it's still hurricane season and 2 weeks from now another monster could slam into ANYWHERE in the US from Texas to Maine and I sure as hell would like to know what they are doing NOW to not let this happen again.

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

A year from now after the congessional review of the procedures it will get a 2 minute spot on the evening news and page 5 in the Times no suffering souls to show.
Sad but true.


You can make an arguement that we need to focus on helping the people and not what went wrong but it's still hurricane season and 2 weeks from now another monster could slam into ANYWHERE in the US from Texas to Maine and I sure as hell would like to know what they are doing NOW to not let this happen again.
That is avery good point.

Widget

[edgewound]

I know I've said enough on this one....I'm done with it too.

Peace everyone:)

[louped garouv]

The most incredible story even if staged was the 3 young graduates who went into the convention centre several times and rescued people. Perhaps more journalist should mount their own rescue missions.



that was the point behind my foamy the squirrel link (post #40) -- pretty funny in a twisted kind of way....

[louped garouv]

FEMA's Brown sent back to D.C.

04:13 PM EDT on Friday, September 9, 2005

By LARA JAKES JORDAN / Associated Press

WASHINGTON – Federal Emergency Management Agency Director Michael Brown is being relieved of his command of the Bush administration's Hurricane Katrina onsite relief efforts, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff announced Friday.

http://www.wwltv.com/sharedcontent/nationworld/dailyimages/090905brownfema.jpg
RON HELFLIN/AP File
USAF Lt. General Russel Honore, left, talks with reporters Sept. 4 in New Orleans as Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff, center, and FEMA Director Mike Brown look on. Brown is being removed from his role managing Hurricane Katrina relief efforts.


He will be replaced by Coast Guard Vice Adm. Thad W. Allen, who was overseeing New Orleans relief and rescue efforts, Chertoff said.

Earlier, Brown confirmed the switch. Asked if he was being made a scapegoat for a federal relief effort that has drawn widespread and sharp criticism, Brown told The Associated Press after a long pause: "By the press, yes. By the president, No."

"Michael Brown has done everything he possibly could to coordinate the federal response to this unprecedented challenge," Chertoff told reporters in Baton Rouge, La. Chertoff sidestepped a question on whether the move was the first step toward Brown's leaving FEMA.

But a source close to Brown, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the FEMA director had been considering leaving after the hurricane season ended in November and that Friday's action virtually assures his departure.

Brown has been under fire because of the administration's slow response to the magnitude of the hurricane. On Thursday, questions were raised about whether he padded his resume to exaggerate his previous emergency management background.

Less than an hour before Brown's removal came to light, White House press secretary Scott McClellan said Brown had not resigned and the president had not asked for his resignation.

Chertoff suggested the shift came as the Gulf Coast efforts were entering "a new phase of the recovery operation." He said Brown would return to Washington to oversee the government's response to other potential disasters.

"I appreciate his work, as does everybody here," Chertoff said.

"I'm anxious to get back to D.C. to correct all the inaccuracies and lies that are being said," Brown said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.

Asked if the move was a demotion, Brown said: "No. No. I'm still the director of FEMA."

He said Chertoff made the decision to move him out of Louisiana. It was not his own decision, Brown said.

"I'm going to go home and walk my dog and hug my wife and, maybe get a good Mexican meal and a stiff margarita and a full night's sleep. And then I'm going to go right back to FEMA and continue to do all I can to help these victims," Brown said. "This story's not about me. This story's about the worst disaster of the history of our country that stretched every government to its limit and now we have to help these victims."

Amid escalating calls for Brown's ouster, the White House had insisted publicly for days that Bush retained confidence in his FEMA chief. But there was no question that Brown's star was fading in the administration. In the storm's early days, Brown was the president's primary briefer on its path and the response effort, but by the weekend those duties had been taken over by Brown's boss - Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff.

Also, while Brown was very visibly by the president's side during Bush's first on-the-ground visit to the hurricane zone last week, he remained behind the scenes - with Chertoff out front.

Even before Chertoff's announcement, the beleaguered Brown was facing questions Friday about his resume.

A 2001 press release on the White House Web site says Brown worked for the city of Edmond, Okla., from 1975 to 1978 "overseeing emergency services divisions."

Brown's official biography on the FEMA Web site says that his background in state and local government also includes serving as "an assistant city manager with emergency services oversight" and as a city councilman.

But a former mayor of Edmond, Randel Shadid, told The Associated Press on Friday that Brown had been an assistant to the city manager. Shadid said Brown was never assistant city manager.

"I think there's a difference between the two positions," said Shadid. "I would think that is a discrepancy."

Asked later about the White House news release that said Brown oversaw Edmond's emergency services divisions, Shadid said, "I don't think that's a total stretch."

Time magazine first reported the discrepancy.

Separately, Newsday reported another discrepancy regarding Brown's background. The official White House announcement of Brown's nomination to head FEMA in January 2003 lists his previous experience as "the Executive Director of the Independent Electrical Contractors," a trade group based in Alexandria, Va.

Two officials of the group told Newsday this week that Brown never was the national head of the group but did serve as the executive director of a regional chapter, based in Colorado.

A longtime acquaintance, Carl Reherman, said Brown was very involved in helping set up an emergency operations center in Edmond and assisting in the creation of an emergency contingency plan in the 1970s. At the time, Reherman was a city councilman, and later became mayor.

"From my experience with Mike, he not only worked very hard on everything he did, he had very high standards," said Reherman, who also knew Brown when he was a student taking classes from Reherman, who was a professor of political science at Central State University.

Nicol Andrews, deputy strategic director in FEMA's office of public affairs, told Time that while Brown began as an intern, he became an "assistant city manager" with a distinguished record of service.

"According to Mike Brown," Andrews told Time, a large portion of points raised by the magazine are "very inaccurate."

–––

Associated Press writers Ron Fournier, Pete Yost and Ted Bridis in Washington and Richard Green in Oklahoma City contributed to this story.

[louped garouv]

Embattled FEMA Director Mike Brown Resigns
http://i1img.com/images/email_this_page_sm.gif (javascript:eMail_Friend(540, 540);) Email this Story (javascript:eMail_Friend(540, 540);)

Sep 12, 3:00 PM (ET)

By RON FOURNIER

http://ak.imgfarm.com/images/ap/thumbnails//KATRINA_BROWN.sff_LARC103_20050909194741.jpg (http://apnews1.iwon.com/image/20050909/KATRINA_BROWN.sff_LARC103_20050909194741.html?date =20050912&docid=D8CIT0UO1)(AP) Federal Emergency Management Agency Director Michael Brown, left, listens as Homeland Security...
Full Image (http://apnews1.iwon.com/image/20050909/KATRINA_BROWN.sff_LARC103_20050909194741.html?date =20050912&docid=D8CIT0UO1)p {margin:12px 0px 0px 0px;}

WASHINGTON (AP) - Federal Emergency Management Agency director Mike Brown said Monday he has resigned "in the best interest of the agency and best interest of the president," three days after losing his onsite command of the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. "The focus has got to be on FEMA, what the people are trying to do down there," Brown told The Associated Press.

[Mr. Widget]

Good to see he is such a good team player... makes for a good team.
Not.

Well, it's a start. Maybe they'll get it together before the next major catastrophe. I really hope so...


Widget

[mikebake]

However, I would never expect Americans to set such a low bar on what their nation could accomplish.

Why not? We're no better than the rest of the world, are we? Some people relish the tragedy.

[mikebake]

guess he didnt see it coming....
I'm waiting for the big Swedish Katrina disaster aid package to be announced..........

[Figge]

well they said on thursday after the hit that we (sweden) is gonna help in some way...havnt heard anything more. they were at some point talking about sending help to rebuild tele comuninications. after that i have no clue! been away from the "news". so i guess well see what happens

[mikebake]

well they said on thursday after the hit that we (sweden) is gonna help in some way...havnt heard anything more. they were at some point talking about sending help to rebuild tele comuninications. after that i have no clue! been away from the "news". so i guess well see what happens
At some point they were talking about sending help??
What is taking them so long??!! Time is wasting! People are suffering and dying! :banghead: Send us the cellphones and send them NOW!

[louped garouv]

Is an inept coward who bears MUCH of the blame. BTW, Mayor, where is the 10,000 dead? A$$wipe.


different mayors --

you need to go back and check you understanding of who said what when...

the mayor who cried over the ppl who drowned in that nursing home in St. Bernard was the mayor of Kenner, Broussard

the one who said 10K dead was Nagin of NOLA proper....

[Figge]

At some point they were talking about sending help??
What is taking them so long??!! Time is wasting! People are suffering and dying! :banghead: Send us the cellphones and send them NOW!


well i guess they are discussing what model they will be shiping over.

[mikebake]

different mayors --

you need to go back and check you understanding of who said what when...

the mayor who cried over the ppl who drowned in that nursing home in St. Bernard was the mayor of Kenner, Broussard

the one who said 10K dead was NAgin of NOLA proper....
Thanks, I gotcha. Here we go, then;
Mayor Nagin is an inept coward who bears MUCH of the blame. BTW, Mayor, where is the 10,000 dead? A$$wipe.

[louped garouv]

At some point they were talking about sending help??
What is taking them so long??!!

Sept 5, (Reuters) - Hurricane Katrina has devastated New Orleans and U.S. Gulf Coast states, killing hundreds of people and possibly thousands, and drawing support pledges from rich and poor, traditional friends and foes of the United States.


The United States, a major world donor itself, last week let it be known it would accept help from a variety of nations.


U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice decided "no offer that can help alleviate the suffering of the people in the afflicted area will be refused."


Some 60 nations have offered help, from longtime American friends such as Japan, Germany, Canada, France and Britain as well as Cuban President Fidel Castro, who is willing to donate doctors and medicine. The Venezuelan government, frequently criticised by the Bush administration, has also offered help.


Thailand, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh, countries that suffered their own devastation during the tsunami on Dec. 26, also offered support.


International organisations and religious institutions also offered help ranging from medical teams to tents to cash donations. They include NATO, the Organization of American States, the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees, the World Health Organisation, the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies and Cor Unum, the Vatican's central charity organisation. The United Nations has offered to help coordinate international relief.


Following is a list of some of the aid offered.


ASIA


AUSTRALIA: "We're going to provide A$10 million and the bulk of that money, if not all of it, will go to the American Red Cross," said Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer.


CHINA: China offered $5 million in aid for victims. If needed, the government is also prepared to send rescue workers, including medical experts, officials said. State-controlled CNOOC, the country's top offshore oil and gas producer which was forced to drop a bid for Unocal after opposition from U.S. Congress, said it would match donations from its employees.


JAPAN: Will provide $200,000 to the American Red Cross to assist victims, the Japanese Foreign Ministry said. Japan will also identify needs in affected regions via the U.S. government and will provide up to $300,000 in emergency supplies if it receives requests for such assistance, the ministry said.


SINGAPORE: The Singapore Armed Forces, responding to requests by the United States Texas Army National Guard, has sent three Chinook helicopters to Fort Polk, Louisiana, to help in relief efforts. The government said the Chinooks will help to ferry supplies and undertake airlift missions.


THAILAND: Thailand has offered to send 100 doctors and nurses to hurricane-ravaged New Orleans. "We have made the offer to them and they have accepted and said thank you," Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra said.


SOUTH KOREA: Will send $30 million in aid, which includes private donations. Will dispatch a 50-person rescue team and if the U.S. needs foreign troops, parliament will discuss whether to send South Korean soldiers.


BANGLADESH: Offered $1.0 million donation as humanitarian aid, the foreign ministry said.


SRI LANKA: Will donate $25,000 to the American Red Cross.


AMERICAS


CANADA: Defence Minister Bill Graham has indicated that three warships and a coast guard vessel are being loaded with relief supplies and 1,000 personnel. They will be ready to travel to Louisiana as required in the coming days.


CUBA: Cuban President Fidel Castro offered to fly 1,100 doctors to Houston with 26 tonnes of medicine to treat victims.


MEXICO: Is sending 15 truckloads of water, food and medical supplies via Texas and the Mexican navy has offered to send two ships, two helicopters and 15 amphibious vehicles.


VENEZUELA: President Hugo Chavez, a vocal critic of the United States, offered to send cheap fuel, humanitarian aid and relief workers to the disaster area.


EUROPE:


BRUSSELS: The European Union and NATO said they had received official requests from the United States to provide emergency assistance for the victims of Hurricane Katrina. The United States has asked for first aid kits, blankets, water trucks, and 500,000 prepared meals, the EU executive Commission said.


The Commission's Civil Protection Mechanism will coordinate member states' offers and U.S. needs. An EU field coordinator will be appointed this week.


AUSTRIA - Crisis team in Houston, Texas. Dirty water pumps, 300 camp beds.


BELGIUM - Three medical teams, civil engineering team, diving team.


BRITAIN: Britain is sending 500,000 military ration packs to areas hit by Katrina. Medical experts, marine engineers and high-volume pumps, various engineers.


DENMARK - Water purification units.


FINLAND - Thirty-member search and rescue team.


FRANCE: Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin said France was ready to offer help. "We have rescue teams based in the Caribbean and we are naturally ready to provide aid to the Americans, and that is what we have told them," he said. Paris has readied 300 tents, 980 field beds and other material.


GERMANY: Over the weekend, Germany sent two German army Airbus planes to the United States, loaded with a combined 25 tonnes of food rations. America has asked for logistical specialists, pumps, drinking water, water filters, generators, emergency dwellings, blankets and medical aid.


IRELAND - Initial assistance of 1 million euros.


ITALY: Has offered to send aid and evacuation specialists, Italy's civil protection unit said. Authorities have prepared two military transport planes to fly amphibious vessels, pumps, generators, tents and personnel to New Orleans and other areas.


LUXEMBOURG - Prepared 1,000 camp beds, 2,000 blankets.


MALTA - Material and cash. No details.


NETHERLANDS: Will provide teams for inspecting dykes and for identifying victims if there is a formal request from the United States. It will also send a frigate from Curacao to New Orleans shortly to provide emergency assistance, the government said.


ROMANIA - Two teams of medical experts.


RUSSIA - Will send three planes on either Monday or Tuesday.


The planes will carry medical dressings, food, tents, blankets, drinking water and portable electricity generators.


SWEDEN - First aid kits, blankets, meals ready to eat, two water purification plants plus instructors. Equipment to restore cell phone net in disaster areas.


SPAIN: Is prepared to grant any formal U.S. request for gasoline stocks, an Industry Ministry spokesman said. Also organising delivery of items such as military-type meals, batteries and medicines.


SWEDEN: The Rescue Authority said it was on stand-by to supply water purifying equipment, healthcare supplies and emergency shelters if needed.


MIDDLE EAST


IRAN: Offers to send humanitarian aid to a country that has labelled it part of the "axis of evil." "The victims have complained about the lack of timely assistance and we are prepared to send our contributions to the people through the Red Crescent," said Foreign Ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi.


ISRAEL: Sending health and defence officials to the U.S. to help coordinate aid.


QATAR: Pledged $100 million in aid to the disaster victims, the official QNA news agency reported.


SAUDI ARABIA: Saudi Refining, a Houston-based subsidiary of state oil firm Saudi Aramco, will donate $5 million to the American Red Cross to support relief efforts.


KUWAIT - Wealthy OPEC nation Kuwait is donating $500 million worth of oil products and other humanitarian aid, news agency KUNA reported.


BAHRAIN - Pledged $5 million to aid hurricane victims.


INTERNATIONAL AGENCIES, ORGANISATIONS


RED CROSS/RED CRESCENT: The Geneva-based International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies is sending some 80 disaster experts from more than 10 countries in response to a call from the American Red Cross. They will support volunteers providing food and shelter, the Federation said.


COR UNUM: Pope Benedict announced he had asked the Vatican's central charity organisation, Cor Unum, to coordinate Catholic aid for hurricane victims. "We have all been pained in the last few days by the disaster caused by the hurricane in the United States of America, particularly in New Orleans," Benedict said.


UNITED NATIONS: The United Nations announced the United States had accepted its aid offer and said its staff will be based at the USAID Hurricane Operations Center, where international assistance is being coordinated. They "are ready to provide emergency staff and a wide variety of relief supplies as and when necessary," the U.N. statement said.

[Titanium Dome]

At some point they were talking about sending help??
What is taking them so long??!! Time is wasting! People are suffering and dying! :banghead: Send us the cellphones and send them NOW!


Sarcasm aside, a huge pile of telecommunications stuff is coming from Sweden with the intent of restoring mobile communications.

http://www.klfy.com/Global/story.asp?S=3838393

Why now? Why the delay? Well, don't forget that the US declined aid from Sweden early on. The offer was for more than cell phones.

http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=2018&date=20050904

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/06/AR2005090601994.html

http://www.swedenabroad.se/pages/news____39332.asp

[Figge]

WOW! thats not a bad list! hope it all arrives

[mikebake]

Louped, that was PRICELESS and there is WAY TOO MUCH FODDER for jokes in there.....................
p.s. apparently France and Germany have no shame........................and I see where Fidels offer was actually 1100 doctors, OR their weeks combined salary of 1238.00 dollars.

[louped garouv]

Louped, that was PRICELESS and there is WAY TOO MUCH FODDER for jokes in there.....................

in the spirit of true new orleanians, please make the jokes --- locals down there are KNOWN for making jokes at the most inappropriate times :applaud:

[mikebake]

in the spirit of true new orleanians, please make the jokes --- locals down there are KNOWN for making jokes at the most inappropriate times :applaud: Oh, alright, then. Fits me anyway, to make a quick rough stab at jokes when inappropriate. (Edit; a few revisions!)


Following is a list of some of the aid offered.


ASIA


AUSTRALIA: "We're going to provide A$10 million and the bulk of that money, if not all of it, will go to the American Red Cross," said Australian Foreign Minister Ian MacKenzie.


CHINA: China offered $5 million in aid for victims. If needed, the government is also prepared to send rescue workers, including medical experts, and well-made but cheap products originally destined for WalMart, officials said. State-controlled CNOOC, the country's top offshore oil and gas producer which was forced to drop a bid for Unocal after opposition from U.S. Congress, said it would match donations from its employees. China has also offered to purchase New Orleans.


JAPAN: Will provide $200,000 to the American Red Cross to assist victims, the Japanese Foreign Ministry said. Japan will also identify needs in affected regions via the U.S. government and will provide up to $300,000 in emergency supplies and really killer squeezable wasabi paste, if it receives requests for such assistance or condiments, the ministry said.


SINGAPORE: The Singapore national Opera, responding to requests by the United States Texas Army National Guard, has sent three hookers to Fort Polk, Louisiana, to help in relief efforts. The government said the hookers will help to "ferry" supplies and undertake "airlift missions".


THAILAND: Thailand has offered to send 100 doctors and nurses to hurricane-ravaged New Orleans. "We have made the offer to them and they have accepted and said thank you," Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra said. Refugees were also offered vacation discounts to visit Phuket.


SOUTH KOREA: Will send $30 million in aid, which includes private organ donations. Will dispatch a 50-person rescue team and if the U.S. needs foreign troops, parliament will discuss whether to send South Korean soldiers, or those of some other country.


BANGLADESH: Offered $1.0 million donation as humanitarian aid, the foreign ministry said. Must be picked up in Bangladesh, and returned immediately to help Bangladesh.


SRI LANKA: Will donate $25,000 worth of thatched chickees to the American Red Cross.


AMERICAS


CANADA: Defence Minister Bill Graham has indicated that three warships and a coast guard vessel are being prepared to shell Louisiana as required in the coming days.


CUBA: Cuban President Fidel Castro offered to fly 1,100 doctors to Houston with 26 tonnes of medicine to treat victims. (see above post)


MEXICO: Is sending 15 truckloads of water, food and medical supplies via Texas and the Mexican navy has offered to send two ships, two helicopters and 15 amphibious vehicles. (just the phrase Mexican Navy is enough to make one howl)


VENEZUELA: President Hugo Chavez, a noted vocal critic of the United States, says George Bush is the worst tenor he has heard.


EUROPE:


BRUSSELS: The European Union and NATO said they had received official requests from the United States to provide emergency assistance for the victims of Hurricane Katrina. The United States has asked for fresh sprouts, blankets, water trucks, and 500,000 tonnes of really good cheese, the EU executive Commission said.


The Commission's Civil Protection Mechanism will coordinate member states' offers and U.S. needs. An EU field coordinator will be appointed this week.


AUSTRIA - Crisis team lost in Houston, Texas. Dirty water pumps, 300 campsites, beds, and some Smores.


BELGIUM - Three medical teams, civil engineering team, diving team, who will entertain the Reliant Center survivors by performing excerpts from their routine, soon to debut at the World Diving Championships.


BRITAIN: Britain is sending 500,000 military ration packs to areas hit by Katrina. Medical experts, marine engineers and high-volume pumps, various semi-succesful recording engineers.


DENMARK - Water purification units, and a 30 year old stash of those fucked up shoes.


FINLAND - Thirty-member reindeer-mounted search and rescue team.


FRANCE: Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin said France was ready to offer help. "We have rescue teams based in the Caribbean and we are naturally ready to provide aid to the Americans, and that is what we have told them," ("HA! and they BELIEVE US!! HA HA) he said. Paris has readied 300 tents, 980 teddy bears, and other fissionable material which was never in Iraq. (Upon arrival, however, the rescue teams immediately surrendered to Gov. Blanco. You knew that one was coming)


GERMANY: Over the weekend, Germany sent two German army Airbus planes to the United States, loaded with a combined 25 tonnes of food rations. The food was subsequently judged too inferior tasting even for the poorest NOLA residents, who, afterall, have NO cuisine to compare to, and was therefore used to help damn the levee breach. Has asked America for logistical specialists, pumps, drinking water, water filters, generators, emergency dwellings, blankets and medical aid.


IRELAND - Initial assistance of 1 million euros, whatever the fuck those are worth today.


ITALY: Has offered to send aid and evacuation specialists, Italy's civil protection unit said. Authorities have prepared two military transport planes to fly some really hot-looking but damn unreliable amphibious vessels, attractive leather pumps, test-tone generators, non-filter cigarettes, and personnel to New Orleans, and other areas not colonized by Spain.


LUXEMBOURG - Prepared 1,000 camp beds, 2,000 blankets. Unable to ship as FedEx couldn't find Luxembourg on the map.


MALTA - Material and cash. No details. Piss off. ( I love the specificity)


NETHERLANDS: Will provide teams for inspecting dykes and and other strange Mardi Gras celebrants, and for identifying victims of poor taste if there is a formal request from the United States. It will also send a frigate from Curacao to New Orleans shortly to provide emergency assistance, after the excursion trip is over and the mainsail repaired, the government said.


ROMANIA - Two teams of medical experts, and a guy who bites people for fun.


RUSSIA - Will send three planes on either Monday or Tuesday. Or Wednesday. Or whenever the airline mechanic is sober.


The planes will carry salad dressings, black bread, tents, blankets, drinking "water" and portable electricity generators, which are new and don't work.


SWEDEN - First aid kits, blankets, meals ready to eat, two water purification plants plus instructors. Equipment to restore prepaid cell phone cards to their previous credit amount and bill them to Bush.


SPAIN: Is prepared to grant any reasonablly small, formal U.S. request for gasoline stocks, an Industry Ministry spokesman said. Also organising delivery of items such as military-type batteries and medicines. Wait, someone has blown up a taxi, we change our mind.


SWEDEN: The Rescue Authority said it was on still on hold with Bush' cellphone, to offer to supply water purifying equipment, beauty supplies and emergency ponchos if needed.


MIDDLE EAST


IRAN: Offers to send humanitarian aid to a country that has labelled it part of the "axle of elvis." "The victims have complained about the lack of trim assistants and we are prepared to send our contributions to the people through the Bloody Red Crescent," said Foreign Ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi. When pressed for specifics, he mentioned that internal security forces could quickly strike any complaining refugees or media people "so they cannot criticize so much anymore".


ISRAEL: Sending health and defence officials to the U.S. to help coordinate aid. Offers to bulldoze houses, even some good ones.


QATAR: Pledged $100 million in aid to the disaster victims if Tiger Woods will make an appearance at the Al Sharen golf outing, and hit golf balls off their hotel roof, the official QNA news agency reported.


SAUDI ARABIA: Saudi Refining, a Houston-based subsidiary of state oil firm Saudi Aramco, will donate $5 million to the American Red Cross to support relief efforts, after raising prices overnight to make a quick extra 48 million.


KUWAIT - Wealthy OPEC nation Kuwait is donating $500 million worth of sunflower seed oil products and other humanitarian aid, news agency KUNA reported.


BAHRAIN - Pledged $5 million while watching re-runs of the Jerry Lewis Telethon.


INTERNATIONAL AGENCIES, ORGANISATIONS


RED CROSS/RED CRESCENT: The Geneva-based International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Socialists is sending some 80 disaster experts from more than 10 countries in response to a call from the American Red Cross. They will support volunteers providing food and shelter, the Federation said.


COR UNUM: Pope Benedict announced he had asked the Vatican's central charity organisation, Cor Unum (Latin for clean underwear), to coordinate Catholic aid for hurricane victims. "We have all been pained in the last few days by the disaster caused by the United States of America, particularly in New Orleans," Benedict said.


UNITED NATIONS: The United Nations announced the United States had accepted its "Food for Money" offer and said its staff will be based at the USAID Internatoinal Tennis Operations Center, where internecine assistance is being coordinated. They "are ready to provide emergency staff and a wide variety of relief supplies as and when necessary," the U.N. statement said.

[aust-ted]

Mikebake wrote in part "AUSTRALIA: "We're going to provide A$10 million and the bulk of that money, if not all of it, will go to the American Red Cross," said Australian Foreign Minister Ian MacKenzie. "

Ian would probably do a better job than the incumbent Alexander Downer. Perhaps you should ask George W to recommend the change to our illustrious Prime Minister

Regards
Ted

PS Think we are have also sent a few relief workers.

BTW Have you read about the young Aussie who refused to leave a New Orleans bar before Katrina (presumably under the weather) and ended up in a Louisana jail after being relocated from a New Orleans lock up (there to sober up). Apparently his credt card got stolen from the secure area after a riot and escape. His family, who were worried about him after his stolen card was recovered from some crims who used it for a Baton Rouge motel room, were relieved when he was located.

[Mr. Widget]

Sorry to drag this up again, but this was just too funny....


Widget

[scott fitlin]

Sorry to drag this up again, but this was just too funny....


WidgetWell, yes, he has been just that!

:rotfl:

[Titanium Dome]

Sorry to drag this up again, but this was just too funny....


Widget

The best gift is one that can be passed on, so I did.

Whether you like the president or not, a gaffe like this from the media is just too hard to pass up, yet easy to pass along. :rotfl: