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View Full Version : Does the main forum need a DIY or Modifications subforum?



Miss Orchid
07-29-2005, 11:43 AM
?

Zilch
08-01-2005, 12:10 PM
Well, I've really thought about it twice now, and I still can't decide, largely because it can easily spill over into Technical. I appreciate Ian's dilemma. "Here's what I did and how I did it. If you have any questions, comments, suggestions, criticisms, alternative approaches, or etc., post 'em separately...."

I suppose if we could really restrict ourselves to simple exposition, formatted like a published article, perhaps, or several on the same specific subject: Building an N3134 crossover, Refoaming woofers, Cabinet refinishing, Upgrading L200, etc., as subforums, but for me, the other stuff is intimately intertwingled therewith. I just can't unwrap myself from the inherent technical issues, and the desire to explore them here.

However, I would also like to be able to find all the iterations of a particular project in a dedicated space. "Search" gets tougher every day.

Focus may be my problem: It's a POLL, and Zilchster the Incorrigible wants to DISCUSS it! :banghead:

[Forgive me, Miss Orchid....]

Lancer
08-01-2005, 12:52 PM
Well, I've really thought about it twice now, and I still can't decide, largely because it can easily spill over into Technical.Not really. The header is Technical Help. The problem might be in the description - "Discussions on repairing, restoring or upgrading Lansing products".

I guess it would have been more tidy if the Technical Help subforum had been left as a place to answer Technical Help questions pertaining to repairing, restoring, or upgrading Lansing products. It now has a considerable number of threads devoted to modifications and projects in it that have nothing to do with providing technical help on repairing, restoring, or upgrading Lansing products.

dancing-dave
08-01-2005, 01:00 PM
I think that threads in this sub-section should be based on step-by-step guides approved by the administrators. Then each guide can have it's own thread limited only to technical comments/questions (e.g. no congradulatory messages). There has been some wonderful work already completed that qualifies for this section. Thus the only real task is consolodating this info into a guide format that the novice can use.

scott fitlin
08-01-2005, 01:28 PM
My thoughts are the Technical section is restricted to JBL and Altec tech talk!

So a sub category for mods, DIY, and other tricks, not neccesarily for JBL products alone can be good!

Titanium Dome
08-01-2005, 01:55 PM
Perhaps we could simply rename the Technical Help to Orthodox JBL and call the new one Heterodox JBL?

My orthodoxy is your heterodoxy.

Miss Orchid
08-01-2005, 06:31 PM
Forgive me, Mz. Orchid....
Miss Orchid. Thank you.

Perhaps we could simply rename the Technical Help to Orthodox JBL and call the new one Heterodox JBL?

I don't understand.

Ian Mackenzie
08-01-2005, 09:04 PM
I have lots of dilema's which one are you talking about??:blah:

Ian

Robh3606
08-01-2005, 09:37 PM
How do you know where to put a post about T/S for the 2235 if you intend to build boxes from scratch??

Technical Help or DIY

Are you going to have a Technical Help subforum in the DIY section??? Do we limit DIY to Non Heritage designs using JBL drivers?? Keep the 4344 4340 clones in the regular forum sections?? What do you see as guidelines we could post to keep things in the right home?? If you do I would split it up into enclosures and driver alignments, crossovers, drivers/compression drivers/horns, completed systems. The completed systems could be a catalog of the DIY systems that have been done by the members. Set it up in a way so someone could search for a driver and get all the systems that the driver was used in. Would be nice to have examples of what worked and what didn't. I would also come up with a syntax on the Threads that works well with the search engine we have and also will help down the road. Just some ideas.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
08-01-2005, 11:30 PM
Just about everything on this forum is a modification if not done exactly to factory specs. (per Jim Lansing design)

Perhaps Edgewound can elaborate!:banghead:

Zilch
08-02-2005, 12:19 AM
Some of the best efforts here are the clones. They come with drawings and specs, right down to the paint color mix, not to mention construction techniques.

BUT, many of the departures have equal standing in my recollection: Pangea's MTM's and the interactive design process getting there, sebackman's HT ensemble, the super cool Sub 1500 packages. Everybody's got their favorites, no doubt.

L200's deserve their own forum, probably. 4430's and 434x's certainly do. Or, more generally, maybe, it's two-way, three-way, four-way? DIY crossovers need their own place, as well.

Then there's the "How To's," some of the most useful information here: Refoaming, grille replacement, diaphragms, refinishing, room treatment, testing....

I, too, am thinking about approaches to structure. Too hard to find this good stuff among 6000 threads and 50,000+ posts, and there's more coming all the time. Lotsa talent here.... :hmm:

Titanium Dome
08-02-2005, 10:43 AM
Forgive me, Mz. Orchid....
Miss Orchid. Thank you.

Perhaps we could simply rename the Technical Help to Orthodox JBL and call the new one Heterodox JBL?

I don't understand.

Miss Orchid, beautiful flower of the East:

Othodox JBL would be all factory-spec'd JBL designs, factory-referenced modifications and substitutions, factory recommended procedures, and in-the-field, real-world experiences, tips, and tricks for keeping our JBLs orthodox (i.e., factory original and/or faithful to the factory designs).

Heterodox JBL would be all non-factory spec'd designs, non-factory-referenced modifications and substitutions, non-factory procedures, and in-the-field, real-world experiences, tips, and tricks for modifying our original factory designs or building our own original JBL component sourced designs (i.e., individual modifications or personal, original designs).

May the dripping dew of these humble thoughts bejewel the petals of your consciousness and refract the light of wisdom to your mind's embrace.

Don McRitchie
08-02-2005, 11:46 AM
Just for the record, I have no objections to modifing the current structure of the forum to address DIY issues. I just have one requirement that must be met. The new forum must have a definition that is unequivocal with minimal overlap on any other forum. I'm guessing that the Technical forum will have to be redefined as part of the process to acheive this, but so be it. The suggestions to date will need more work in my opinion to meet this objective.

edgewound
08-02-2005, 03:45 PM
Just about everything on this forum is a modification if not done exactly to factory specs. (per Jim Lansing design)

Perhaps Edgewound can elaborate!:banghead:
__________________
E = 16 x 10(-12) f3(3) Vb k


I believe that restorations/factory recommended substitutions should be just that. I've noticed that what used to be privy information to Authorized Sevice Centers can now be found at JBL Pro's website. Many studio monitor crossover schematics are online. All the values of the components are right there for the taking. Granted, the factory manual doesn't give tolerances, but if a guy wants to use a better cap or coil but it's the same value, I think that qualifies as a restore. On the other hand, when you change a crossover point to eg. 1200hz from 800hz, etc., that should go in DIY modifications, because obviously it's not restoring to factory original specs.

So I guess I agree that a new category would be good for DIY/Modifications.

Edgewound

tomt
08-04-2005, 12:14 PM
well, it is certanly obvious now...

Miss Orchid is Giskard re-incarnated!
``````````````````````````````````````
setting computers encoding to,

'chinese simplified'

stevem
08-04-2005, 02:56 PM
The definition of the Technical Forum is "Discussions on repairing, restoring or upgrading Lansing products". To me, a Lansing product is a complete system. Therefore, a DIY forum could mean discussions on designing and constructing custom systems from scratch using JBL drivers and components. For example modifying a 4343 crossover would fall under the technical forum, while designing and building the Project May system would be in the DIY forum.

JBLnsince1959
08-04-2005, 03:06 PM
well, it is certanly obvious now...

Miss Orchid is Giskard re-incarnated!


No way.....kindred spirits with the same passion....

1. Othodox :
adhering to traditional and established beliefs and practices

2: Heterodox :
not in agreement with accepted beliefs.... departing from doctrine or dogma

Titanium Dome
08-04-2005, 04:26 PM
well, it is certanly obvious now...

Miss Orchid is Giskard re-incarnated!
``````````````````````````````````````
setting computers encoding to,

'chinese simplified'


After all, I've been flirting with her/him.

Titanium Dome
08-04-2005, 04:28 PM
No way.....kindred spirits with the same passion....

1. Othodox :
adhering to traditional and established beliefs and practices

2: Heterodox :
not in agreement with accepted beliefs.... departing from doctrine or dogma


Well-rendered.

JBLnsince1959
08-04-2005, 05:51 PM
After all, I've been flirting with her/him.

I have this information from a very good source. But, you know this "Looking for Giskard" is starting to remind me of Elvis sightings.

Anyway, I too was wondering about this and I call over Whit ( my German Shepherd) and had her sniff a few of the old Giskard posts and then posts from the new people in question.

Her answer ....Bark..woof..woof ( Let sleeping dogs lie)

"GISKARD has left the bulding......."

tomt
08-04-2005, 06:24 PM
JBLnsince1959

"GISKARD has left the bulding.......
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````
you know i missed 'the incident' however it must have been quite bad

i had no idea that any one was looking for giskard
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````
did you ever go to penny lane/streetside to look at the yamaha

ns1000s?
```````````````````````````
secret agents on the case:

http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/h/e/heb130/smith_children_walking.jpg

Titanium Dome
08-04-2005, 06:27 PM
I

"GISKARD has left the bulding......."

be the language of love, then let the romance begin. :heart:

Say, how about a forum for personals for JBL nuts?

JBLnsince1959
08-04-2005, 06:27 PM
did you ever go to penny lane/streetside to look at the yamaha

ns1000s?

you know, to be honest, I had so much happening here with personal sh*t and business that I forgot to go. Thanks for reminding me I'll go this weekend. :D :applaud:

JBLnsince1959
08-04-2005, 06:29 PM
be the language of love, then let the romance begin. :heart:



What would it be like to have a GF who, cooked AND knew everyhting about JBL's and restored them?? would that be great or what? :applaud:

OK, back on track now....

tomt
08-04-2005, 06:30 PM
hotter than h... pretty warm there isn't it
in OP that is

pmakres1
08-04-2005, 06:59 PM
I have this information from a very good source. But, you know this "Looking for Giskard" is starting to remind me of Elvis sightings.

Anyway, I too was wondering about this and I call over Whit ( my German Shepherd) and had her sniff a few of the old Giskard posts and then posts from the new people in question.

Her answer ....Bark..woof..woof ( Let sleeping dogs lie)

"GISKARD has left the bulding......."

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

JBLnsince1959
08-04-2005, 07:19 PM
hotter than h... pretty warm there isn't it
in OP that is

that would be putting it mildy :D it really sucks right now, thank GOD for AC.....

Titanium Dome
08-04-2005, 10:11 PM
All right then:

Orthodox JBL Forum: repairing, restoring or upgrading stock JBLs
Heterodox JBL Forum: designing and building custom JBLs
Orthosexual JBL Forum: personals for JBL lovers looking for other JBL lovers
Heterosexual JBL Forum: personals for JBL lovers looking to love other JBL lovers

Any other additions?

JBLnsince1959
08-05-2005, 06:21 AM
All right then:

Orthosexual JBL Forum: personals for JBL lovers looking for other JBL lovers
Heterosexual JBL Forum: personals for JBL lovers looking to love other JBL lovers

Any other additions?

Geez Dome.....That is just so WRONG, in so many ways...I don't know where to begin....

frank23
08-05-2005, 07:13 AM
I believe that restorations/factory recommended substitutions should be just that. I've noticed that what used to be privy information to Authorized Sevice Centers can now be found at JBL Pro's website. Many studio monitor crossover schematics are online. All the values of the components are right there for the taking. Granted, the factory manual doesn't give tolerances, but if a guy wants to use a better cap or coil but it's the same value, I think that qualifies as a restore. On the other hand, when you change a crossover point to eg. 1200hz from 800hz, etc., that should go in DIY modifications, because obviously it's not restoring to factory original specs.

So I guess I agree that a new category would be good for DIY/Modifications.

Edgewound

Hi, I am a DIY-er. I wonder with a split up between "restorations" and "modifications" what to do when a thread is about a subject and deviates from "restoration suggestions" to "improvement suggestions". Which can happen quite easily as JBL designed most speakers for PRO use but most of us are using them in our living rooms being able to make other choices with regard to power handling etc.

Maybe a splitup between a technical forum and a specifications forum could work?

greetings, Frank

Titanium Dome
08-05-2005, 01:30 PM
Geez Dome.....That is just so WRONG, in so many ways...I don't know where to begin....

I'm trying to keep it on thread, really. It's just that I always see the tapestry and not the individual thread.

JBLnsince1959
08-05-2005, 01:51 PM
I'm trying to keep it on thread, really. It's just that I always see the tapestry and not the individual thread.

:rotfl:

and just what pattern does the tapestry make??

tomt
08-05-2005, 06:02 PM
JBLnsince1959 that would be putting it mildy :D it really sucks right now, thank GOD for AC.....
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````
main reason i left 'went on vacation' was the weather round KC

see people in Brookside, in Febuary,playing tenis in shorts,
next day the temp will be under 30F and the wind blowing-Hard
in Feb-2003 it rained 2 inches in an hour, then froze that night
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````
topic;
i voted yes

Titanium Dome
08-07-2005, 09:33 AM
:rotfl:

and just what pattern does the tapestry make??

In my mind, it looks like this:

http://www.d0rkgirl.com/LG8934.htm

sonofagun
10-29-2005, 04:59 AM
Just for the record, I have no objections to modifing the current structure of the forum to address DIY issues. I just have one requirement that must be met. The new forum must have a definition that is unequivocal with minimal overlap on any other forum. I'm guessing that the Technical forum will have to be redefined as part of the process to acheive this, but so be it. The suggestions to date will need more work in my opinion to meet this objective.


Well said, Don!

:applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

jim3860
11-14-2005, 11:30 AM
After all, I've been flirting with her/him. Well TI I agree with you i also hope that Miss Orchid isnt Giskard, because her Avatar makes my heart go thump thump:p PS. Either way we are lucky to have them here.

boputnam
11-14-2005, 12:06 PM
Just for the record, I have no objections to modifing the current structure of the forum to address DIY issues. I just have one requirement that must be met. The new forum must have a definition that is unequivocal with minimal overlap on any other forum. I'm guessing that the Technical forum will have to be redefined as part of the process to acheive this, but so be it. The suggestions to date will need more work in my opinion to meet this objective.Agree.

I think Technical Help forum needs restricted to specific repairs / refurbishing to / by JBL spec.

I think this idea has real merit, Miss Orchid, dood. :applaud:

spkrman57
11-14-2005, 12:28 PM
I like to have one for original JBL gear and a separate one for modded gear!

Ron

And I'm sure the Giskard has indeed left the building!

Ron

boputnam
11-14-2005, 12:59 PM
I'll take that as a nominal yes.

This Thread is VERY important, and should stay on topic. All benefit from the additional parsing of work - it addresses a topic we've discussed time and again.

Off I go...

edgewound
11-14-2005, 01:12 PM
The poll results kind of look like any other election in the US as of late. The voting few will get to dictate to the non-voting many...as far as membership numbers go. Of course, it looks like most of the active participants have voted.

boputnam
11-14-2005, 01:46 PM
The poll results kind of look like any other election in the US as of late. Actually, we've not had 80% FOR since I can recall... :no:


The voting few will get to dictate to the non-voting many...Everybody gets a chance to vote. :bouncy: Few got a chance to strategize the original structure, here, and this idea has real merit. But, we've got to compell the Wizard.

Those that don't take this opportunity, or converse in the perspectives, live with the outcome, of course.

Robh3606
11-14-2005, 02:15 PM
OK try this

How do we divide a DIY forum from Technical Help?? Why don’t we simply say that any questions on stock systems would be covered as Technical Help. If you were building the 4430 as an example you could ask for the crossover schematic in Technical Help. Answers would be limited to a link to a schematic or other reference information that answers the poster question directly. To show the forum your progress or ask if others have built a clone you could start a thread in DIY. Any documentation such as photo’s and how the actual “clones” were built would be in DIY. Under this format any technical questions about the original design would reside in Technical Help. Any issues and documentation of a DIY project would reside in the DIY Forum. We could move Bo’s excellent re-foaming thread there as well as Zilches Q+D 4430 thread as examples. If we limited the Tech Help Forum to just Tech Help it would be easier to search and in DIY we can discuss any and all possibilities for changes to the basic design till the cows come home. This way we will limit Tech Help to what is basically factual or true for the original design and have a place to discuss modifications and changes in DIY. We could even have subheadings in DIY for the 4430 or 4343 as examples where we could discuss upgrades such as Ian’s 4343 Upgrade thread if there is enough posts and content to warrant it. That way all the DIY information is cataloged by design in one place so it would be easier to find.



What do you think?? Does this definition help narrow things down a bit???



Rob:)

edgewound
11-14-2005, 02:45 PM
I would agree that Technical Help should be split into separate sub forums. For instance, (I)Technical Help- OEM specs for maintenance, repair, restoration only. (II) Technical Help- DIY Modification, Repro Projects, Repair, etc. This way factory specs stay factory... period.

johnaec
11-14-2005, 03:30 PM
I think a potential solution is to have an a JBL alley or JBL Chat room where formites can shoot the breeze, vent as it were or tade opinion. This would filter a lot of the chatter out away from the pure information thread.Isn't this already pretty much what the current "Off Topic" is for?

John

morbo!
11-14-2005, 03:54 PM
maybe a section for morbo and like minded people just to rant abouts whats bothering them

we could call it (morbo`s pathetic corner for venting)
and dont enter unless u over 21 and gonna speaka da english
doesnt have to be good mine isn`t

lfh
11-14-2005, 05:27 PM
First of all (since I've been silent for quite some time): Hi everybody! :wave:

I don't have a suggestion (yet), but I'd like to bring up a few points that I think deserve some discussion in this context:

1. FAQ

Obviously lots of questions are asked over and over again and frankly I'm a bit surprised that there is no FAQ to address that. A Q&D (but effective) way of implementing a FAQ (sort of) is to collect links to threads that are likely to be particularly useful for newbies in a sticky thread per sub-forum. An examle of this is available here: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43093

2. Technical Documentation Project

As implied by the subject definition ("Discussions pertaining to the development of a comprehensive web application that documents technical data related to Lansing products") a forum is not the ideal medium for reference type of information. Clearly, lots of goodies that surface within the various threads deserve to be collected (or not put in the forum in the first place) and structured for easier access.

IMHO a wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki) is a strong candidate as a supplement to the forum. For a modest example check out my wiki about Acoustic Control Corp. amplifiers: http://acoustic.homeunix.net/ It's very easy to create a framework such that various lists are generated automatically, e.g. products with 15 in drivers (http://acoustic.homeunix.net/twiki/bin/view/Acoustic/FifthteenInchDriver) or generation 3 products (http://acoustic.homeunix.net/twiki/bin/view/Acoustic/GenerationThree). Every product has a page of its own and new pages are easily created by means of a template. A very useful feature of the particular wiki used (TWiki) is that it has built in revision control, so it's easy to see who added what and when. I'd be glad to elaborate on this further, should the forumites be interested.

3. Examples of what goes where

IME (when restructuring the intraweb at the company I work for - by chance it's a wiki ;) ), supplementing topic definitions with examples of what should go under a specific heading ("inclusive: ...") as well as what doesn't belong there ("exclusive: ...") help reducing erroneous posting a lot.

4. Number of forums and hierarchical levels

Too much structure (in terms of number of forums and sub-forums) should be avoided. I've seen examples of forums that went downhill after being chopped up into way too many specialized areas. 5-7 top level categories seem to be the optimum, and two levels should be enough. Anything more than that, and it gets hard to get an overview as well as cumbersome to navigate.

5. OT vs OT

According to the current definitions OT is basically everything non-JBL (et al). Perhaps it would be beneficial to split it into e.g. 'General Audio' (for discussions on RTAs, room correction, vintage tube amps, ...) and 'The Pub' or similar, where we can bash politicians, discuss Chevy trucks or whatever? In the pub its okay to rant after a couple of beers :)

Just my EUR 0.02

Fredrik

(Disclaimer: Maybe one or all of the above topics have been discussed to death already (I've been away ya know). If so, I apologise for my lenthy post.)

Titanium Dome
11-14-2005, 05:38 PM
To move this discussion along, I think there are several issues that need to be addressed. Right now we're looking at structure, yet it is organization that needs a good kick in the rear. If we simply add more structure without getting the organization of the content right, then we're making it worse, not better.

So what are these organizational issues? Some have been mentioned many times before.

1) Getting alreadly scanned and available info into the system.
2) Taking that info and the already-input technical info into a master database.
3) Making the search function more useful.
4a) Reading every thread ever written and assigning keywords and subject tags to each one (that has any merit).
4b) At the same time removing OT jokes and comments from the searchable database parameters but not from the original archives.
5a) Forcing all new members to post only in a "new member's area" until they have ten/fifteen/twenty posts.
5b) For info requests, only allow other members to recommend search strings or thread links to new members in this "new member's area."
5c) For the "how much can I get?" one-or-two-post, profit-seeking new members, only allow PMs to them of anticipated value, sales tips, individual offers, etc.
5d) Of course established members can always do the "Welcome" and "Congratulations" kind of stuff with newbees, as well as the inane bullshit we're all so fond of.

AFTER these steps and perhaps others are taken, THEN I believe we could have a useful Technical Area AND a useful project/DIY area.


Of course, the one exception I can think of to 5a-d above is the sole post by deleted .

What I do know is that innumerable one- or two-post members who have never contriubted anything substantive to the forum clog the member list. The seach engine dribbles their worthless inquiries and sales pitches into its results. The time and energy wasted trying to re-educate them and answer their questions can certainly build up our post count, but it returns nothing to the forum.

And yes, I realize that 5a-5d also introduce a structural change as a direct result of reorganizing the data flow.
;)

Earl K
11-14-2005, 06:41 PM
- There are some good suggestions in there, TiDome .

Deleted content

- My suggestion :
(i) Deleted content


Deleted content

(a) .Deleted content

(b) Deleted content

(c) Deleted content

(ii) Deleted content

(iii) Deleted content

(iv) Deleted content


( :(

morbo!
11-14-2005, 06:59 PM
maybe just use the money to pay for lithium for these people!

morbo has a hard enough tiime bieng morbo!

morbo!
11-14-2005, 07:44 PM
why would you need two
do you want to argue with yourself?

deleted content


p.s make it possible to ask a simple question without joining the forum

boputnam
11-14-2005, 08:11 PM
- Deleted content
:offtopic: Earl, you're venting big-time, and not on-topic here. Agreed

If those are your goals / requests, then this should a different "Forum Issues", or "Off Topic" thread. Possibly worthy, and could there be joined by other Forumites' opinions.

While you're there maybe we should consider a "suggestions to authors" thread, e.g. spelling, syntax, and definitely the use of punctuation. Far too much tolerance of that here, eh?

Ian Mackenzie
11-14-2005, 09:34 PM
I think the majority will ignore that thankless post

Ian Mackenzie
11-14-2005, 09:34 PM
I like the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki

It works well for projects.

Ian

morbo!
11-14-2005, 09:58 PM
oh i see now
thanks for the clarification ian!

they like to pat them selves on the back!
and post as a diffrent gender when their wearing a dress!
well cant prescribe for that! (yet anyway)

morbo!

Deleted content


p.s morbo would aslo like to see a place for people`s favorite recipe`s
(elzars corner?_)
morbo maybe a bit gruff but he does like to cook for people!

10 Watt Street
11-15-2005, 08:34 AM
Hey, you kids in the back of the station wagon. Am I going to have to stop this car?

:homer:

Miss Orchid
11-15-2005, 12:06 PM
Anyway the results of the poll are obvious.

Yes, four people do not know. :p

lfh
11-15-2005, 02:27 PM
The new forum must have a definition that is unequivocal with minimal overlap on any other forum. I'm guessing that the Technical forum will have to be redefined as part of the process to acheive this, but so be it. The suggestions to date will need more work in my opinion to meet this objective.

OK, I'll give it a try:

Repair & Restoration (was Technical Help)
Discussions on repairing, restoring or upgrading Lansing products to factory specifications

Modification & DIY (new)
Discussions on modifications, "hybrids", "clones" and new designs using Lansing components


BTW, what about starting the (IMO related) discussion on the Technical Documentation Project in the new, but still empty, forum? (Dunno if it's proper for me to write the "Hello, world!" post...)

edgewound
11-15-2005, 02:57 PM
1.9%...or 58 out of 2,996 of the membership has voted.....hmmm....not really a mandate to go to the trouble of tweaking the current format.

morbo!
11-15-2005, 03:31 PM
thats a lot of lithium

lfh
11-16-2005, 02:40 PM
1.9%...or 58 out of 2,996 of the membership has voted.....hmmm....not really a mandate to go to the trouble of tweaking the current format.

Well, a quick check reveals that 2,263 members have less than 10 posts each, and only 106 members have more than 100 posts...

morbo!
11-16-2005, 02:55 PM
maybe just a clean up of every body who has less then a reasonable amount of posts for a given time
or in my case to many!:D

lfh
11-16-2005, 04:16 PM
Yes there are problems but we need to be unified about what the issues are so a strategy and action plan and resources can be put in place.

Yep, let's start to this end. I suggest we all post our #1 concern.

Personally I consider the lack of simple means to collect reference type of information an order of magnitude more troublesome than occasional misplaced posts or interleaved OT in "serious" threads.

By "simple means" I mean a database and/or hierarchy with distinct "nodes" for every relevant Lansing product, for all major projects undertaken by forumites, as well as for other frequently discussed topics, whereupon we can collect the important bits and pieces on the fly and also tidy up the information as time allows.

In short: The forum is excellent for discussions, but conclusions and results belong elsewhere IMO.

Titanium Dome
11-16-2005, 04:39 PM
Yep, let's start to this end. I suggest we all post our #1 concern.

Personally I consider the lack of simple means to collect reference type of information an order of magnitude more troublesome than occasional misplaced posts or interleaved OT in "serious" threads.

By "simple means" I mean a database and/or hierarchy with distinct "nodes" for every relevant Lansing product, for all major projects undertaken by forumites, as well as for other frequently discussed topics, whereupon we can collect the important bits and pieces on the fly and also tidy up the information as time allows.

In short: The forum is excellent for discussions, but conclusions and results belong elsewhere IMO.

Going back to some earlier comments, let's get things organized before we restructure. The critical issues here are the how and the who.

Clearly there has to be a method that's consistent with the forum's current software, and clearly it's more than a one-man job. The job certainly can't fall to Don or John while everyone sits back and waits.

Mr. Widget
11-16-2005, 09:55 PM
Repair & Restoration (was Technical Help)
Discussions on repairing, restoring or upgrading Lansing products to factory specifications

Modification & DIY (new)
Discussions on modifications, "hybrids", "clones" and new designs using Lansing components
I think this is a very good starting point. It may not be the absolutely ideal scenario, but it is easily implemented and gets us closer to our goal of lessening the confusion. It would also add a level of control we don't currently have while performing searches.

It would also be possible to weed through the legacy threads and populate the new areas with threads that are clearly useful and the remainder of the old threads that meander about could simply be put in a read only (Old Technical Threads) area.


Personally I consider the lack of simple means to collect reference type of information an order of magnitude more troublesome than occasional misplaced posts or interleaved OT in "serious" threads.
By "simple means" I mean a database and/or hierarchy with distinct "nodes" for every relevant Lansing product, for all major projects undertaken by forumites, as well as for other frequently discussed topics...
The moderators and administrators of the forum have discussed this and while we are all in agreement that we would like this functionality, it appears that we have certain technical and man power issues that make it impractical at this time.


Widget

Titanium Dome
11-17-2005, 10:32 AM
Even though I run a nonprofit corporation and don't spend money when I don't have to, I've always subscribed to the idea that you get what you pay for. When I need expertise or personpower that's outside the ken of my staff, I outsource.

I think one solution might be to pay someone to go through this site under Don's and John's supervision and make the needed fixes once and for all. The the only question is cost.

Yes, cost is a difficult question to answer, but it pales in comparison to all the ambiguity that we'll have if we try to cobble this effort together ourselves. For me in a situation like this, the cost of buying expertise is always more efficient than trying to create it (often with dubious results).

In this case the questions become, "Who will do it?" and "How much will it cost,?" followed by "How will we raise the money?"

I think Don, John, and the moderators can tackle the first and second questions. The rest of us could work on the last one.

I'm sure I've got a nice pair of JBLs and maybe an amp, receiver, or pre/pro that could factor into a fundraising effort. Anyone else? Maybe some of us can just cough up some $$ or tap a well-heeled acquaintance (personal or corporate) on the shoulder. Does Harman/JBL have somebody they'd loan us for a couple of weeks? I have a staff IT guy who could do this in a couple of weeks, no problem, but of course, I need him to work for me. :yes:

Don, do we have a 501(c)(3) from the Feds? If not, I can help us get one. This helps with tax breaks for donors.

Yes, yes, I know I'm being a bit pushy with ideas. But I'm into finding solutions to this impediment to our success. If you guys think it's too much, then simply push back. :p

Mr. Widget
11-17-2005, 10:41 AM
Dome, it's been a while since we discussed it so I am a bit fuzzy, but I think one of the technical problems was the very software we use to run this forum. Of course if we want to hire a staff of local techies I am sure anything is possible, but spending say $100K to entice them away from Google does seem steep even for a nonprofit.:D

Hopefully Don will pop in with some words of wisdom.:bouncy:


Widget

Ian Mackenzie
11-17-2005, 10:50 AM
Yep:thmbsup:

Originally Posted by lfh
Repair & Restoration (was Technical Help)
Discussions on repairing, restoring or upgrading Lansing products to factory specifications

Modification & DIY (new)
Discussions on modifications, "hybrids", "clones" and new designs using Lansing components


I think its a safe course of action. It sums up and disseminates by and large what is going on and will ease the confusion and associated issues.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense to do this.

The ulimate search engine would be phase 2 of the forums upgrade.

Titanium Dome
11-17-2005, 11:39 AM
Dome, it's been a while since we discussed it so I am a bit fuzzy, but I think one of the technical problems was the very software we use to run this forum. Of course if we want to hire a staff of local techies I am sure anything is possible, but spending say $100K to entice them away from Google does seem steep even for a nonprofit.:D

Hopefully Don will pop in with some words of wisdom.:bouncy:


Widget

I'm certain that the software is one of the complicating factors, but then it always is in any project. There are a lot of two- and three-man php shops around the country that bang out this kind of thing--or in fact anything that pays--for relative peanuts by Silicon Valley standards. The most I've ever spent was $25k, and that was a much more comprehensive project than this should be.

You're correct, though, that we need to hear from Don. I just want him to know that I'm willing to do more than just talk. :)

Mr. Widget
11-17-2005, 03:01 PM
I just want him to know that I'm willing to do more than just talk. :)
Now we know you can talk... (look who's talking) so that is some offer! :thmbsup:


Widget

lfh
11-20-2005, 12:23 PM
The moderators and administrators of the forum have discussed this and while we are all in agreement that we would like this functionality, it appears that we have certain technical and man power issues that make it impractical at this time.

Have the discussions resulted in some kind of design specification / requirements document (not necessarily in terms of potential SW solutions, rather a summary of desired functionality from the user perspective) you could point us to?




I think one solution might be to pay someone to go through this site under Don's and John's supervision and make the needed fixes once and for all. The the only question is cost.
/.../
In this case the questions become, "Who will do it?" and "How much will it cost,?" followed by "How will we raise the money?"

I think Don, John, and the moderators can tackle the first and second questions. The rest of us could work on the last one.

FWIW: I'm prepared, too, to spend some time and money to help making this happen. (E.g. I'm willing to host and hack together a simple TWiki-based framework (this time using the metadata capabilities - the Acoustic Control Corp site is admittedly pretty lame, but it was never ment to leave my laptop...) for evaluation if this approach is deemed a feasible solution.) Let's see what Don suggests as next steps.

:bouncy:

Zilch
11-20-2005, 01:56 PM
I am one of the four "I don't knows," and I still think for good reason:

Q: "I have and EN3 cabinet with Allied drivers in it. I'd like to restore it to JBL original...."

A: "Cool. You've come to the right place, the 'Repair and restore to JBL specifications' forum. Here's the list of original component options. You'll need a 2203 woofer, or the equivalent consumer 124A."

Q: "Great! Where do I get a pair of those?"

A: "Well, they're pretty scarce, but you may just luck out an snag a pair on eBay. They show up maybe once a year or so. However, be aware that the recone kits for those have long since been discontinued. You MIGHT be able to find someone who has a couple NOS kits for around $300 each, should you need them to restore the drivers."

Q: "That's not a good choice for me, then. I was hoping to repopulate these with JBL for $200 to $300 for all of the drivers. Is there something else I might use instead?"

A: "Oh, sure, there are lots of options, but we can't discuss them here because this is the JBL technical purist forum. We only do 'correct' here. You can start a new thread on this subject over in the freeforall DIY hybrid sleeze clone forum if you'd like to pursue this further...."

I feel myself to be in part to blame for this, for reconing E140's with 2235H kits in public, and, in general, for pursuing "outside the envelope" approaches, occasionlly involving the use of a Sawzall.

I appreciate how some might find these practices offensive, though I suspect we all do it to one degree or another. The incidence of 100% "correct" is likely quite rare among the 7600 threads on the forum. I'm merely pointing out that pure vs. impure may not be the most rational choice for subdividing the current technical forum....

Ian Mackenzie
11-20-2005, 02:31 PM
Zilch,

I don't think the regouping is in quite that vain.

The point being in that specific example that it would be pointed out yes / no the driver is NLA or if there was a JBL recognised equivalent such as listed in the various JBL support pdfs.

If the member prefers to take an alternative means of restoration or driver substitution then it needs to be made quite clear that it will not be to the original speciification. (that's their question after all)

This is as opposed to suggesting a driver can be adapted if you do this and that and it will be per the original driver.

In the cases we have seen recently, technically the T/L simulations tell the story.

Its about drawing the distinction, not so much being 100% correct or out of scope of the forum.

Its also about the source of technical information.

Sometimes the answer to a tehnical question is unknown or not previously discussed. Best practise is not to assume but raise a request for the querry.

We are fortunate that JBL are often in many case able to provide, confirm or clarify specific technical questions regards many of their vintage JBL designs.

Threads are often organic, and by providing the right direction or information will lead to the right outcome and that might end up in the diy forums.

We're here to inform and educate and there needs to be some order about how we go about doing this...that's all.



Ian

lfh
11-20-2005, 02:35 PM
A: "Oh, sure, there are lots of options, but we can't discuss them here because this is the JBL technical purist forum. We only do 'correct' here. You can start a new thread on this subject over in the freeforall DIY hybrid sleeze clone forum if you'd like to pursue this further...."
/.../
I'm merely pointing out that pure vs. impure may not be the most rational choice for subdividing the current technical forum....

Maybe, maybe not. I think most would agree that it's actually good practice to start a new thread (as you suggested) whenever a discussion changes direction/focus significantly - even within the same sub-forum for that matter. Thus in your specific example the thread would be rather short - but actually to the point, and still potentially useful to someone else who would actually be prepared to do it the the "ortodox way".

That said, I would not personally be annoyed if the thread would continue within the proposed R&R forum. The objective is still "repair", and sometimes unorthodox repair methods are called for. This is so to speak "modification by necessity" rather than "modification by desire". (To make such posting practice tolerable to the structure-purist, the definition could be relaxed to e.g. "...primarily to factory specifications.")

Deliberate slaughtering / bastardization, however, should clearly be discussed in the proposed M&DIY forum. ;)

Titanium Dome
11-20-2005, 02:47 PM
(snip)

Deliberate slaughtering / bastardization, however, should clearly be discussed in the proposed M&DIY forum. ;)

:rotfl:

Mr. Widget
11-20-2005, 03:00 PM
Dome,

You need a splash of aquaplas..but not too much..just a tinsy bit:D

"If it's metal put aquaplas on it!" :rotfl:
A wise person said that...

Widget

Zilch
11-20-2005, 03:33 PM
That said, I would not personally be annoyed if the thread would continue within the proposed R&R forum. The objective is still "repair", and sometimes unorthodox repair methods are called for. This is so to speak "modification by necessity" rather than "modification by desire". (To make such posting practice tolerable to the structure-purist, the definition could be relaxed to e.g. "...primarily to factory specifications.")Fine. Here's the actual thread. You be moderator and decide which posts to delete:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8038

I'd be using my trusty Sawzall to install LE14A, a factory option, actually.

Or, would we prefer: "$300? Yer DREAMIN', dude...."

Having reread the initial post, it's clear that the thread does not even belong in the proposed R&R forum, though the originator might have thought it did, since he wants to install "what originally came in it," yet proposes a non-standard driver complement.

As moderator, I think I'd avoid the entire hassle and just move it over to the M&DIY forum.

Too messy.... :p

lfh
11-20-2005, 03:54 PM
Having reread the initial post, it's clear that the thread does not even belong in the proposed R&R forum, though the originator might have thought it did, since he wants to install "what originally came in it," yet proposes a non-standard driver complement.

As moderator, I'd avoid the entire hassle and just move it over to the M&DIY forum. :p

Given that it's about cabinets from the JBL Enclosure Series about which one can read the following in the posted literature

"OR DESIGN YOUR OWN

Blank uncut baffles are also available, should you want to challenge your ingenuity and develop your own system."

I'd say either forum is fine in this particular case. This is orthodox DIY, folks!

:applaud:

(Besides I know where to get some 2203A:s. PM me if interested. ;) )

Ian Mackenzie
11-21-2005, 01:46 AM
Someone wake me up when something actually happens:snore: :snore: :snore:

morbo!
11-21-2005, 01:50 AM
send beer
then i`ll liven up the place

Mr. Widget
11-21-2005, 10:36 AM
Someone wake me up when something actually happens:snore: :snore: :snore:
Don and I exchanged PMs about an unrelated issue recently... he has been swamped at work. Hopefully he'll get some daylight and be able to cruise this thread and make some recommendations.


Widget

Zilch
11-21-2005, 10:58 AM
Someone wake me up when something actually happens:snore: :snore: :snore:I specifically cited that example because it illustrates the issues you have raised over the past couple of weeks, i.e., unsupported Franken-stuff.

SO, this is illusory? I'm only IMAGINING there's an issue here? Lfh says, "No problem, let it be...."

Mr. Widget
11-21-2005, 11:03 AM
I specifically cited that example because it's full of the issues you have raised over the past couple of weeks, i.e., unsupported Franken-stuff.

SO, this is illusory? I'm only IMAGINING there's an issue here? Lfh says, "No problem, let it be...."
Hey Zilch,

I have no idea what you are saying. Are you suggesting that Ian and the rest are trying to fix something that isn't broken. Are you saying that this proposed fix won't deal with certain complexities?

If you don't mind, please reiterate you point. Thanks,

Widget

Zilch
11-21-2005, 11:44 AM
To reiterate: I think the idea of separating repair and restoration from DIY and mods is likely a good step, however, it's clear R&R will frequently (if not nearly always) incorporate mods, thus obscuring the distinction. Not a big problem, since the primary R&R objective is retained.

Ian, likely representing others as well, has recently emphasized a secondary distinction, that R&R must be pure and "correct," i.e., "to original specifications," and anyone with any other suggestions or ideas not fully supported by the "official" literature should not post them as a response in R&R. Lfh would apparently allow diluting this, somewhat, to "substantially" to original specifications, or, perhaps, "somewhat" to original specifications, on a case by case basis.

My point: While the addition of a M&DIY forum may, indeed, be a good step forward, the imposition of restrictions to circumvent "pollution" of R&R by any material which is not "pure and correct" by some arbitrary definition (or, by some moderator's opinion,) will unduly restrict the exposition of available, often viable, options.

It seems there is a desire to restrict R&R to some perceived "official" limitations upon correctness. Instead, if someone posts a bad suggestion, let others step up and say so: "Now, Zilch, that's a REALLY stupid approach...." ;)

edgewound
11-21-2005, 12:29 PM
If I may...and I will:p ...I'd like to add to the "Repair/Restoration" vs. "Mod/DIY" dilemma. Some parts original to a given model are no longer available/supported by the factory, but usually there is a factory recommended "last resort" substitution available per the factory pointed out
in some service lit. I do think there should be some lattitude tolerated in the R&R section so long as it follows the spirit of OEM-ness. When something crosses the line such as Akira's well-executed L100(?)/4311+2405(077) mod....that should go into Mod/DIY territory....as well as...e.g....replacing a NLA 044 with a Morel tweeter. I'm confident that most members would agree that when starting with an existing vintage JBL model system, the first inclination would be to restore it. If you're piecing together a system to clone or make custom...then it's Mod/DIY.

Robh3606
11-21-2005, 12:35 PM
"My point: While the addition of a M&DIY forum may, indeed, be a good step forward, the imposition of restrictions to circumvent "pollution" of R&R by any material which is not "pure and correct" by some arbitrary definition (or, by some moderator's opinion,) will unduly restrict the exposition of available, often viable, options."

Hello Zilch

I don't think this is really all that difficult. What's pure and correct is what the JBL engineering staff put's it stamp of approval on. The 4344, 4430, L26, L100 or what have you. Any stock system falls into this. If you want to restore a pair of L26's, where the woofers were changed due to foam rot or what have you the correct replacement would be the 125A as an example. Could you use a 127A's?? Sure!! same T/S parameters. Would it be correct??? No. The L26 was never built with 127A the L40's were. We don't want arbitrary decissions just something that is factual and will bring the speaker back to it's as design response and function.

I have several clones 4344, 811C, XPL-200A. If I need information on them to build them stock I would go to Tech Help or R+R. To show the build history or explore non stock changes DIY. Nothing is ever cut and dry we will always have some thread that are hard to place but you do the best you can and leave it at that.

If you wanted to build/restore completely original 4343's today you would have a very hard time as the 2231 kits are long gone. There are times when you have no choice when doing R+R simply because you must use what's available and supported by JBL. If you went into the R+R forum with what drivers do I need to restore a 4343 you would be told a 2231A 2121 2420 and a 2405. It would then be acceptable to then point out that the 2231A drivers only have 2235 kits available for recone. The 2420 has a 2425 or 2421 diaphrams as options as well not the original 2420 diaphram which is no longer available.


Rob:)

sonofagun
11-22-2005, 07:47 AM
angels can dance on the head of a pin?



Oh, and also...

"My point:blah: : While the addition of a M&DIY forum may, indeed, :blah: be a good step forward, the imposition of restrictions :blah: to circumvent "pollution" of R&R by any material :blah: which is not "pure and correct" by some arbitrary definition (or, by some moderator's opinion,) will unduly :blah: restrict the exposition:blah: of :blah: available, often :blah: viable, options."

Indubitably, BUT...


Are you speaking of in sub-atomic or hyper-dimensional space-time? :blink:




Well are ya...punk!




Go ahead....



make



my



DAYYYYYY!!!!!!!

Lancer
11-22-2005, 07:57 AM
Before or after you pull their wings off?

sonofagun
11-22-2005, 08:00 AM
Not me...YOU pull 'em off!

Ian Mackenzie
11-22-2005, 08:38 AM
:snore: :snore: :snore: :argue: :snore: :snore: :snore:

Zilch
11-22-2005, 11:02 AM
Are you speaking of in sub-atomic or hyper-dimensional space-time? :blink: By the proposed definition, any suggestion to upgrade using foam grilles on a speaker that didn't originally come with them might be deemed "unwelcome."

[If we didn't just happen to LIKE you and your product so much.... :p ]

sonofagun
11-22-2005, 11:09 AM
How come "unwelcome"?

I mean, uh...come on!


p.s. You made my day :D










...i think. :blink:

sonofagun
11-22-2005, 11:14 AM
:rotfl: :rotfl::rotfl:

Ian Mackenzie
11-22-2005, 11:32 AM
Yawn,

He Sounds like a baby that's lost its rattle and has gone crying home to Moma.

Refer to The Eagles Hell Freezes Over.....on a JBL 3 or 4 way not a retro two way thankyou:rotfl:
GET OVER IT

Titanium Dome
11-22-2005, 11:57 AM
Before or after you pull their wings off?

It's the effing halos that are the problem: no friction and too much displacement. Replace those halos with horns and see how many you can cram on that pinhead.

Interlocking horns, baby, that's the answer. :yes:

Zilch
11-22-2005, 11:57 AM
How come "unwelcome"?

I mean, uh...come on!Sorry, that's an "upgrade," which has been conspicuously stricken from the scope of R&R, and is certainly not "to orginal specifications."


Don't know why y'all are YELLIN' at the Zilchster here.... ;)



I do think however if the direction is taken as discussed in the DIY post poll it will certainly assist in cleaning up the confusion over where and when to post.

Taken that the afformentioned proposal legitimises diy pseudoism then those that want to free fall in their own incarnations can do so while the those looking for the facts can read with assurance in vintage JBL restorations


Perhaps a JBL sticker on a post or a thread header will become the stamp of approval that it is correct and accurate http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/thumbup.gif while those vetted to be less so will get the http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/bs.gif (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=7#)stamp.

The intent is clear, and it's more than merely distinguishing R&R from M&DIY.

The question is who decides what is correct and pure?

I say let free discourse handle it....

Mr. Widget
11-22-2005, 12:01 PM
The question is who decides what is correct and pure?


Essentially we are talking about the JBL recommended best practice. It isn't all that complicated.



I say let free discourse handle it....
I didn't know you were an anarchist. :D


Widget

Zilch
11-22-2005, 12:16 PM
I didn't know you were an anarchist. :DUmmmm, more like iconoclast, maybe? :p

Robh3606
11-22-2005, 12:33 PM
Hello Zilch

I will make this as simple a distinction as I can

"The question is who decides what is correct and pure?"

In R+R JBL's Original Design or as close as possible with the available drivers and recone kits. It's JBL's design not the restorer.

In DIY the builder of the speakers. It's your design and you can do whatever you want. So basically everything and anything goes. Two very different animals

Rob:)

edgewound
11-22-2005, 12:50 PM
Essentially we are talking about the JBL recommended best practice. It isn't all that complicated.



Widget

I concur....you are correct, Sir.

What the hell is all the fuss about?

Zilch
11-22-2005, 01:13 PM
What the hell is all the fuss about?To quote the head man:


I just have one requirement that must be met. The new forum must have a definition that is unequivocal with minimal overlap on any other forum.We're nailing that down, is all.

I suspect, in the cited example thread, in light of what we have so far, your post regarding making 2203's out of 2235 cones would become "deleted content."

No problem?

edgewound
11-22-2005, 01:31 PM
To quote the head man:

We're nailing that down, is all.

I suspect, in the cited example thread, in light of what we have so far, your post regarding making 2203's out of 2235 cones would become "deleted content."

No problem?

No....actually, my friend...that would come under Mod/DIY....since 2203 recone kits are no longer available....and there is no substitution called out in my JBL Service Lit. I don't understand why you have a problem with my post. I just stated earlier in this thread that R&R to current specs is listed in the JBL Service Manual...that's all. And please don't try to take my posts out of context.

Mr. Widget
11-22-2005, 01:40 PM
To quote the head man:

We're nailing that down, is all.

I suspect, in the cited example thread, in light of what we have so far, your post regarding making 2203's out of 2235 cones would become "deleted content."

No problem?
I don't expect we'll see any more of the, "deleted content." I would expect that type of solution to be prefaced with this is off topic or other reminder to those that don't know what the best practice is that it would be an experimental solution. (As it was I believe.)

There is nothing wrong with experimental solutions. The goal is simply to let everyone understand when they are leaving the charted waters of JBL stock and entering into a new and possibly uncharted area.

Perhaps the problem you are having understanding the point of this is that to you and many of us this seems obvious. The reason for being so pedantic is that there are many who read these threads that may not know the difference. There are some that think you can change a foam surround on a 2235 to a cloth roll and still have a 4430... as you know, this simply isn't the case. It can be done, but it should be clearly stated that this isn't JBL sanctioned and it will no longer sound the same as the JBL original.


Widget

Zilch
11-22-2005, 01:45 PM
I have no problem with your post. I think it's a good and creative approach to a solution. Do not take this personally:

We're having a discussion about the implications of the newly defined R&R forum. I cited that thread as an example for discussion. The presumption is that it would be in R&R, hypothetically, and the question was, what there might not comply with the new definition.

I suggested that the entire thread would appropriately be moved to M&DIY. You seem to agree with that. Do you believe your post would appropriately remain in an R&R thread under the proposed definition?

Zilch
11-22-2005, 01:49 PM
There is nothing wrong with experimental solutions. The goal is simply to let everyone understand when they are leaving the charted waters of JBL stock and entering into a new and possibly uncharted area.Do we agree, then, that "experimental solutions" would not be appropriate in R&R?

Mr. Widget
11-22-2005, 01:56 PM
I suppose they would be acceptable as a last resort in some instances.

If the thread is about restoring a 4350, any recommendation to use a 2122,2213, etc., etc. would be wrong. A suggestion that a K120 frame be reconed with a 2202A kit would be appropriate.

If this solution was no longer available then the JBL suggested solution should be suggested. If there is no JBL suggested solution, then a mention of that fact should be posted with a recommendation to find used parts or as a last resort follow the best experimental approach.

For DIY, anything is acceptable as it is a free for all and any advice is acceptable and open for debate.:bouncy:


Widget

edgewound
11-22-2005, 02:52 PM
I have no problem with your post. I think it's a good and creative approach to a solution. Do not take this personally:

We're having a discussion about the implications of the newly defined R&R forum. I cited that thread as an example for discussion. The presumption is that it would be in R&R, hypothetically, and the question was, what there might not comply with the new definition.

I suggested that the entire thread would appropriately be moved to M&DIY. You seem to agree with that. Do you believe your post would appropriately remain in an R&R thread under the proposed definition?

No...I was just proposing a solution to ressurect a 2203, from recycled 2235 parts, provided the VC and cone thickness are close donor matches. It was never intended as a "restore"....as it is currently, 2203's cannot be restored with factory intended parts.:( Thanks for your "creative approach" comment.:)

Mr. Widget
11-22-2005, 03:59 PM
Let's stop pounding the shit out of this rather simple idea, and move on to something more productive. On the subject of the 2203... JBL does have a history of keeping track on their wish list. If enough people contact JBL looking for recone kits for their 2203s it is always possible that they will do "one last run" of kits. It is always a good idea to ask, and be patient rather than to write off the driver and cannibalize it when there might be an alternative down the road.


Widget

Ian Mackenzie
11-22-2005, 04:17 PM
I said as much in post 72.

Would it not be a good idea to close the discussion at this point unless someone can bring new and fresh ideas to the table.

regards

Ian

Zilch
11-22-2005, 05:17 PM
And upgrades?

Formerly part of R&R, do we presume they are a "Mod" unless explicitly sanctioned by JBL?

Mr. Widget
11-22-2005, 05:23 PM
And upgrades?

Formerly part of R&R, do we presume they are a "Mod" unless explicitly sanctioned by JBL?
Absolutely!

"Would it not be a good idea to close the discussion at this point..."

I agree with you Ian, but I am hoping that Don will pop in...


Widget

Zilch
11-22-2005, 05:30 PM
Absolutely!

Fine.

I'm ready to vote now.... :p

Robh3606
11-22-2005, 05:59 PM
Let's keep it going for another 20 posts or so and really beat it to death!

Rob:wasnt-me:

Ian Mackenzie
11-22-2005, 06:53 PM
Yeah before someone chews all the paint off the Cott!,:blah:

Otis has already made an executive decision! Just do it.


Ian


Absolutely!

"Would it not be a good idea to close the discussion at this point..."

I agree with you Ian, but I am hoping that Don will pop in...


Widget

edgewound
11-22-2005, 07:52 PM
Let's stop pounding the shit out of this rather simple idea, and move on to something more productive. On the subject of the 2203... JBL does have a history of keeping track on their wish list. If enough people contact JBL looking for recone kits for their 2203s it is always possible that they will do "one last run" of kits. It is always a good idea to ask, and be patient rather than to write off the driver and cannibalize it when there might be an alternative down the road.


Widget

Sorry to beat this to death...but....I can't always afford to be patient...I have a business to run, and if I can come up with a feasible solution, I'll do it.

sonofagun
11-23-2005, 01:40 AM
I said as much in post 72.

Would it not be a good idea to close the discussion at this point unless someone can bring new and fresh ideas to the table.

regards

Ian


Someone start a separate DIY web site linked from this site.



Simple (??) as that :blink: ?

Maybe has already been suggested?


I am REALLY trying to be helpful here.

Bob S.

Ian Mackenzie
11-23-2005, 03:29 AM
Bob,

That is not what this thread is about (but thanks for the thought).

What some are trying to turn it into is a somewhat defensive stance on what they see as their own ideals and they represent the minority.

This is not a personal statement but a fact. People are creature of habbit,those habbits ad attitudes become their ideals and a way of doing things and its natural they will resist change even for the benefit of the majority.

Quite frankly I find that rather selfish.

nestawasright
11-23-2005, 04:37 AM
Some of the best efforts here are the clones. They come with drawings and specs, right down to the paint color mix, not to mention construction techniques.

BUT, many of the departures have equal standing in my recollection: Pangea's MTM's and the interactive design process getting there, sebackman's HT ensemble, the super cool Sub 1500 packages. Everybody's got their favorites, no doubt.

L200's deserve their own forum, probably. 4430's and 434x's certainly do. Or, more generally, maybe, it's two-way, three-way, four-way? DIY crossovers need their own place, as well.

Then there's the "How To's," some of the most useful information here: Refoaming, grille replacement, diaphragms, refinishing, room treatment, testing....

I, too, am thinking about approaches to structure. Too hard to find this good stuff among 6000 threads and 50,000+ posts, and there's more coming all the time. Lotsa talent here.... :hmm:

Zilch is right on spot. And if I may add, this is coming from my I 'n S (Identify and Solve) method of thinking. The problem is too much useful information getting lost. The best way out is to organize that information. How, is the next logical question. A possible solution could be to force members to post/create threads that are VERY specific to the designated areas created for specific threads. How you 'force' that is beyoud me. Zilch, one of the admins here may know how to use the technology to do that. The problem I see with that though is that the discussions here are mostly organic and so are the ever growing topics/areas/projects. Therefore, containing them cannot be expected to be an easy enterprise.The particular problem with also is how many areas do you create that would accomodate topics yet to be discussed. Despite the extensive areas convered here, it cannot be said that all matters on the focus of this forum have been discussed. Perhaps the way around this is to get propective threads submitted to admins, who would create the thread in a particular colum, e.g "DIY Subs" or "New Project". I may have convolute the matter. My thought process is clear. I think. I offer my time now to help put all information/post to enable those present and those that are to come, to be able to access information here efficiently. Why you ask. Well I'm a new member here, and from my experience, I know how much help it would be to someone else. Also, it's a way of giving back to all the kind people here who've helped and are helping my presently stalled project.

Lancer
11-23-2005, 06:38 AM
Zilch is right on spot?

Not with statements like "L200's deserve their own forum, probably."

:rotfl:

***

I just decided to look through the titles in the Technical Help forum. What a mess... :barf:

Mr. Widget
11-23-2005, 10:18 AM
This thread has gotten strangely personal...:(

I don't think Zilch is against the ideas put forth by lfh and endorsed by myself and others as much as he doesn't seem to think it will work... or at least that's how I interpret his responses... other responses on this thread are all over the map.

Assuming we make these changes I am confident it will not clear up the mud completely, but it should help dilute it a bit and make the Technical area a bit more useful for all of us.


Widget

Robh3606
11-23-2005, 10:31 AM
"I don't think Zilch is against the ideas put forth by lfh and endorsed by myself and others as much as he doesn't seem to think it will work... or at least that's how I interpret his responses... other responses on this thread are all over the map."

Hello Widget

I think the bottom line is it will be better than we have now. Nothings ever going to be perfect or make everyone happy. We need to get something done before we have another 1000 posts and another 1000 members. We can always pilot run it and make changes as we go. We just have to make it happen.

Rob:)

boputnam
11-23-2005, 10:32 AM
Let's keep it going for another 20 posts or so and really beat it to death!Yea, and the poll results have not moved more than 200 basis points since this Thread started.

The membership has spoken. Some have voted themselves off the island... :smthsail:

Back to work.

Mr. Widget
11-23-2005, 10:39 AM
Bo when the Poll started it was simply asking change/no change. That is like, "would you vote for Bush again..?" Clearly no... would you vote for Bush over Hillary Clinton... clearly yes... the poll alone is useless.

I do think the associated thread has been useful, but has matured and now we should implement the changes...


I think the bottom line is it will be better than we have now. Nothings ever going to be perfect or make everyone happy. We need to get something done before we have another 1000 posts and another 1000 members. We can always pilot run it and make changes as we go. We just have to make it happen. Agreed 100%

In fact I said as much in my last post...

Widget

boputnam
11-23-2005, 10:51 AM
...when the Poll started it was simply asking change/no change.Not correct.

"View Poll Results: Does the main forum need a DIY or Modifications subforum?"

It was specifically topical, as is typical of the Thread Starter. The question had nothing to do with Bush or sex in the Oval Office, far as I can recall... Oh my bad - Hillary did not have sex there, far as we know... :o:

Mr. Widget
11-23-2005, 10:55 AM
OK smart ass... The point was it was general and has become a bit more specific.

Jeb Bush vs. Hillary good grief and it might even come to that. What a country.

The NRA is right... hand out guns so we can shoot ourselves.


Widget

Lancer
11-23-2005, 11:02 AM
Hey, if more people had guns this world would be a better place.
Gunfights clear up a lot of misunderstandings (once the smoke clears).

Ian Mackenzie
11-23-2005, 11:08 AM
Speaking of politics talk is cheap,

The interesting thing is for every good idea or solution posted there has been resistance to change but we all know we have to change ..its become a war of words. Your now down to debating what the Poll was about.

When is someone going to pull their finger out?

At least ear mark threads that need to be relocated.

Mr. Widget
11-23-2005, 11:19 AM
You are nominated...

Start making a tentative list.


Widget

Ian Mackenzie
11-23-2005, 11:24 AM
That's role of the moderators of those areas.

The can start as early as they like and ponder the naval why the hell they never did a damn thing about it in the first place.

Mr. Widget
11-23-2005, 11:29 AM
Yep, talk is cheap.;)


Widget

Zilch
11-23-2005, 11:44 AM
"View Poll Results: Does the main forum need a DIY or Modifications subforum?"

By my view, it has come out the opposite. The new forum would be "Repair and Restoration to Lansing Starndards" with a precisely defined mission per the above discussion.

Rename the old Technical Help forum to "Upgrades, Modifications, and DIY," and the moderator of the new forum can vet member requests or suggestions to move specific threads (or abstracts thereof) from there to R&R according to the new standards.

Populating the new forum with nonconforming threads would significantly compromise it by example.


I just decided to look through the titles in the Technical Help forum. What a mess... http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/puke.gifIndeed. Attempting to move U,M & DIY from there would me monumental. It's not just titles, rather, content. That's why I suggest reversing the implementation for a manageable transition....

boputnam
11-23-2005, 12:03 PM
OK smart ass... Widget!! You know that's one word! :scold: :rotfl:

And, ad hominem name calling in one post. Bad example, Uber Moderator!

boputnam
11-23-2005, 12:19 PM
Now you've gone and exposed that there is no NorCal mafia, afterall. The conspiracy theorists will be so empty... :(

Mr. Widget
11-23-2005, 12:20 PM
Just call 'em as I see 'em. ;)

I bet you were a terror in grammar school. :applaud:


Yep, I'm Off Topic again... Sorry to the guys who are really into this thread. I am done. It think it has served it's purpose.


Widget

norealtalent
11-23-2005, 02:40 PM
Just call 'em as I see 'em. ;)

I bet you were a terror in grammar school. :applaud:


Yep, I'm Off Topic again... Sorry to the guys who are really into this thread. I am done. It think it has served it's purpose.


Widget

Come back, come back, come back...:blink:

Ian Mackenzie
11-23-2005, 03:01 PM
Just call 'em as I see 'em. ;)

I bet you were a terror in grammar school. :applaud:


Yep, I'm Off Topic again... Sorry to the guys who are really into this thread. I am done. It think it has served it's purpose.


Widget

:offtopic:

Don't feel bad about it. The Pope would often go off topic during a speech to the masses...now was that before or after both fingers went up his nose..:rotfl:

Ian Mackenzie
11-23-2005, 03:05 PM
ThaT's it FolK's,

Elvis has Left the Building,

We thankya all for comin , now goon home now, goon home please folks.

Zilch
11-23-2005, 03:06 PM
Sorry to the guys who are really into this thread. I am done. It think it has served it's purpose.HarRUMPH!

Just when it was gettin' GOOD.... :p