43xx series poor imaging???

[Akira]

i have heard it said on this forum that the 43xx series were not good imaging speakers compared to modern ones like vandersteens.
i couldn’t disagree more!!!!!
those monitors had excellent imaging...how do you think they became the choice of recording engineers around the world?
if i place a hi-hat 70 degrees to the left, it will be reproduced with every nuance exactly in the position it is assigned so clearly that you can physically see it. dido for every instrument in the entire spatial mix.
JBL’s are first and foremost professional recording studio monitors and they are designed to function in an acoustically correct environment, and as such do not respond as well as some other high end products in a home environment. studio monitors are meant to be flush mounted. if you play your JBL's in a regular home environment you are seriously degrading the sound.
want to talk poor imaging/ phase coherency? here is a simple experiment: set up your JBL’s outdoors placed against a wall or solid fence. after a careful but short listening session move them out to a position where there is no interference in all directions. (anechoic) you will be shocked at the difference. in the first example the back wall is totally out of phase with the box. multiply this with 3 separate cross over points and you have a poor imaging speaker.
a speaker is still a speaker. while modern speakers are advertised as phase coherent, this is not exactly accurate. anytime you have multiple speakers, where ever one driver takes over from another, you are introducing an anomaly. where modern speakers have an advantage is they tend to be two way, (plus sub) and right away cut down on problems due to their improved extended range. the only system that is truly phase coherent is a dual concentric system where the drivers are physically mounted into a single form, coupled with a sophisticated cross over, preferably an electronic outboard system with time aligned phase tuning. tannoy DMT's do this but, they do not represent an improvement over the 43xx series as they introduce other problems, namely a noticeable discrepancy between the size of the image of the horn and the speaker and vastly different tonality characteristics between the two drivers.
another consideration is psycho acoustics. have you ever wondered why on some days your JBL's sound phenomenal...clean, wide open with that rich textured effortless sound...the speaker just floats. on other days, the system doesn't quite sound the same...everything is there but, something is missing. this is due to a combination of psycho acoustics, humidity, program, phase coherence (more of a problem in a 4 way) and most of all gain structure. let me explain. a sound tech with 5 years pro experience will deliver a well balanced mix with decent tonality, similar to a musician who has reached a state of fluency where he can fly around a drum kit. this is quite different than an accomplished session man who can lay in a simple groove that sounds like pure musicality coming off his limbs. an accomplished recording engineer does the exact same thing! the goal is to perfectly place the mix in the monitor so it "floats" and achieves that effortless, full bodied sound. in other words, you build your instrument tonality and gain structure to achieve perfect phasing within the box. this is why JBL used to refer to their products as MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS...THEY WERE CALLED THE 43XX SERIES.
finally, i am not saying that the 43xx series was the be all and end all of monitors and speakers in general. today's systems on the ultra high end are superior because they benefit from 70 years of technology...but, keep that in perspective. newer does not automatically mean better. if you used vandersteens to mix a program and played it back on JBL's it's not gonna sound anywhere as good as the same product produced on a JBL and played back on a vandersteen.

[Lancer]

Vandersteens!? :barf:

OMG! Where do you guys come up with these 'stoopid' speaker names? :rotfl:

Doesn't Vandersteen make sandals or hand bags or something? ;)

how do you think they became the choice of recording engineers around the world?

Because they were cool looking. :coolness:

JBL’s are first and foremost professional recording studio monitors and they are designed to function in an acoustically correct environment, and as such do not respond as well as some other high end products in a home environment. studio monitors are meant to be flush mounted. if you play your JBL's in a regular home environment you are seriously degrading the sound.

We know that. We've been over and over and over this from day one when the forum first started. I stated it then and numerous times since. I finally stopped harping about it after I realized I couldn't give a rat's ass what people did with their Studio Monsters, never mind the fact that people kept going over and over and over this. :D

Anyway, thanks for the post just the same. :)

[kevf]

Wow, what a timely topic (for me :applaud: )

I have the 4333s which I think are just fabulous, but I've always thought they do not image as well as other modern speakers I had - don't shoot me.

So last week, I picked up a Behringer DEQ2496 to see if I could improve things. For those not familar with the DEQ2406, its an RTA, equalizer plus a hosts of other functions I haven't even looked at yet.

Anyway, I ran the RTA and discovered that my room (about 26"x30") has a huge peak (of 15db) around 16kHz. This only occurs on the left channel. I have in the past always thought the left channel was somewhat louder, and this confirms it. Of course, there also other dips and peaks on both channels, but this one is the biggie.

I used the DEQ2496 to flatten the response but so far, I've only listened to the new setting for 10 mins so I can't say whether things has improved.

My question is what now? Do I leave the equalizations in there permanently? Apply room treatment to tame the room? Build a new wall to flush mount the speakers :D ? I'm not sure the wife will like the last option.

[JBLnsince1959]

Wow, what a timely topic (for me :applaud: )


My question is what now? Do I leave the equalizations in there permanently? Apply room treatment to tame the room? Build a new wall to flush mount the speakers :D ? I'm not sure the wife will like the last option.

Simple, just build a new room that is an acoustically correct environment. :D

[Zilch]

For under $300, nothin's as much fun or as useful as your UltraCurve Pro.

15 dB's a MAJOR anomaly, though. I'd use the DEQ to track down the cause. Swap the two cabinets to determine if it's the speaker or the room.

Hone in on the problem from there. I would not leave that much EQ operating all of the time.

My UltraCurve PEQ and FBD provide a high-pass filter for my woofers here. The GEQ I only use for design work. The RTA is on all of the time. I can't listen anymore without it. :p

[Robh3606]

"Anyway, I ran the RTA and discovered that my room (about 26"x30") has a huge peak (of 15db) around 16kHz."

That seems odd. That's way up there and is well above where you would normally have issues due to room interaction. You switch speaker cables to make sure it's not upstream??

Rob:)

[kevf]

" You switch speaker cables to make sure it's not upstream??

Rob:)

I know...my first thought was equipment problem too. And I suspected 30 year old crossover may be the culpit. But I swapped the speakers cabs (left to right) and got the same problematic response curve. I also changed to another amp just to make sure its not the amp as well.

Now the room walls are asymmetric so I would expect some differences between left and right, but wow..the left/right curves are completely different. The dips and peaks (some fairly large) are in all different freqs.

As Zilch said, the DEQ2496 is a great unit. I've read about room acoustic before, but this unit makes it great fun to experiment and see results.

I'm going to try and track down the cause of this.

[Robh3606]

"those monitors had excellent imaging...how do you think they became the choice of recording engineers around the world?"

Hello Akira


I doubt if that had anything to do with it. This whole imaging thing is from the Audiophille movement which was just begining when many of these 1970"s vintage designs were first introduced. Sure you wanted an image but not to the same extent as demanded these days. What you need is excellent clarity, dynamic range and balance. That to me is where they excell. Sure they can image very well if you are careful with driver level and balance, toe in and position but that IMHO is not their strongest suit. Many of these designs such as the Urei 8XX and 4331 have some abrupt changes in DI and this makes them more difficult to integrate into a room than the more modern designs. The 4400 was developed along the line to make integration easier with a constant directivity horn smoother power response with less EQ required. Take a look at the DI curves for the Urie 811, 4333, 4343, 4430 in gets better in each design requiring less EQ and easier integration. If you look the 4way 4343 is the best of the bunch for the larger monitors while the small formats simply excell with their horizontal DI curves and on axis frequency response and time domain response. Many of these smaller systems image better than their larger brothers.

If you have not seen these take a look it's good reading.

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4408

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/technical/monitoring.htm



Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

Anyway, I ran the RTA and discovered that my room (about 26"x30") has a huge peak (of 15db) around 16kHz. This only occurs on the left channel.

There is no way a room is doing that. You have a problem somewhere.:(

Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

The Vandersteens last time I looked are geared towards a phase and transient perfect transfer function by staggering the baffles and using low order crossover slopes. They are a nice classic boutique audiophile loudspeaker with a loyal following, but they are not for everyone.

While on the one hand they may have certain ideal crossover characteristics in terms of impulse response, their drivers are outclassed by the low power compression of the JBL's and once you get get over the 105 db barrier which most hifi speaker can't cut this is where the JBL legacy comes into play.
The sound gets bigger more powerful and more real, not necessarily louder.

In subjective comparions the Vandersteens sound like and an old 50's radio set (muffled).

That has nothing to do with horizontal dispersion or interaction with a listening room. Every loudspeaker will integrate differently with a given room and all rooms also tend to react differently. Where you or your spouse decides to put the Texas bookshelf will utimately determine the fate of the imaging and almost always this is far from ideal. ......the vase, the lamp, the family photo's!

The whole business of studio environment is a totally different kettle of fish to playing back a vinyl recording in the home. There are certain advantages in having uniform Di across the whole spectrum but that can only come into play with the right complimentry acoustic environment. Wide dispersion can be a problem with poorly placed loudspeakers....no matter how nicely its done.

Anyway, as our new junior member Lancer (who sounds more and more like a recycled senior member with each day passing) said its an old topic but one to hold in perspective.

[johnaec]

(who sounds more and more like a recycled senior member with each day passing)Nah - I think that guy got burnt out trying to answer so many ridiculous questions... ;)

http://www.markviii.org/~johnaec/bangkeyboard.gif

John

[Ian Mackenzie]

Looks more like my average day in the office.....:rotfl:

I have to say this is the funniest post I've seen for a while!

[Lancer]

Nah - I think that guy got burnt out trying to answer so many ridiculous questions... ;)

http://www.markviii.org/~johnaec/bangkeyboard.gif

JohnD'oh!

[Robh3606]

Geez that poor girl that must have hurt!!

Rob:eek:

[Lancer]

I'd imagine it was a trip to the ER. :(

It was probably an episode on Discovery Health channel.

[norealtalent]

Nah - I think that guy got burnt out trying to answer so many ridiculous questions... http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/wink.gif

http://www.markviii.org/~johnaec/bangkeyboard.gif

John

Nice toon' John but I gotta agree with Ian, unless we've started cloning humans, he nailed it for sure. Too many identical quotes, "I'd like to see this thread whacked before it goes to google" "rat's ass" and attitudinal characteristics, as well as a clear cut statement,

"We've been over and over and over this from day one when the forum first started. I stated it then and numerous times since." http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif [Partial quote Lancer]


...Might not of been right but ain't never been wrong,
Seldom turns out like it does in the song... ;)

[johnaec]

...but I gotta agree with Ian,;) ;)

John

[Lancer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah... All Ian has to do is look at the IP addresses with each post and he can tell who is who in a heartbeat. :rotfl:

I think John's toon is hilarious.

[Titanium Dome]

There is no way a room is doing that. You have a problem somewhere.:(

Widget

It's the size of the room. That's pretty darn small.








Sorry kevf, I couldn't resist. ;)

[Mr. Widget]

Personally I'd rather talk about imaging.... instead of all this:bs:


Widget

[Lancer]

Ok...

Buy a pair of PT800/PS1400 stacks and image to your heart's content.

[Mr. Widget]

Ok...

Buy a pair of PT800/PS1400 stacks and image to your heart's content.

Oh, there ARE alternatives.... ;)

Widget

[clmrt]

Minimonitors (L20T) or MegaUber Boxes (L300)?


I get an excellent image effect from my Cabarets, especially as I get close to the axis, say 6 feet, they are about 6.5 feet apart.

Roger Waters' "Amused" has some good stuff that comes from way off to the side, behind, rolling over the top of you stuff...

[Lancer]

Oh, there ARE alternatives.... ;)

WidgetNoooo! Miss Swan says there are no known alternatives. :no:

[Lancer]

Minimonitors (L20T) or MegaUber Boxes (L300)?They image fine.

[Mr. Widget]

Noooo! Miss Swan says there are no known alternatives. :no:

You should hear Mrs. Gadget doing her Mrs. Swan imitation... it is real scary...:D


Widget

[Robh3606]

"I get an excellent image effect from my Cabarets, especially as I get close to the axis, say 6 feet, they are about 6.5 feet apart.

Roger Waters' "Amused" has some good stuff that comes from way off to the side, behind, rolling over the top of you stuff..."

Same here set-up is the key. Problem is as Ian said you need to be able to be flexible in the speakers and your placement in the room. I use the same basic set-up the Equilateral Triangle deal more or less as a starting point and go from there.

Rob:)

[Zilch]

Roger Waters' "Amused" has some good stuff that comes from way off to the side, behind, rolling over the top of you stuff...So, you appreciate now, we presume, the perils of mixing politics and rhythm....;)

"Amused" has Q-Sound. Some of that is cheap trix.

[Fun, tho.... :p ]

[Mr. Widget]

...set-up is the key.


Yep... the room can affect the imaging performance of a system too.

Widget

[boputnam]

...(I ain't often) been right (but I've) never been wrong,
(It) seldom turns out (the way) it does in the song... How 'bout a foto of the Embassy from Grosvenor Square, and why they were there in the first place...? :)

(sorry for the edits, but we gotta get the Bridge - the "Middle Eight" as Lennon called it - right, or nothing is worth doing!)

[norealtalent]

Yeah, yeah, yeah... All Ian has to do is look at the IP addresses with each post and he can tell who is who in a heartbeat. :rotfl:

I think John's toon is hilarious.

Your video isn't lacking either. Owwwwww!!!!!!!.

VERY nice woofers, thank you, thank you, thank you.:)

[Lancer]

You're quite welcome.

They're pretty sweet huh?

I think they sound really nice.

[norealtalent]

You're quite welcome.

They're pretty sweet huh?

I think they sound really nice.

Tupelo!... but not as sticky :D