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lpd
08-24-2003, 11:00 PM
Here's a link to the schematic for the 4333 crossover. I am thinking of replacing the caps. The horn is a 1.5 mf if I read the schematic right and the tweeter has a 1.5 and 1.0 mf cap...the bass driver a 20mf. What voltage should I get for the caps, and and brands you guys use?

boputnam
08-25-2003, 08:18 AM
Hey, lpd...

You omitted the Link, but here's a few schematics for the 4333 series.

3133 and 3133A Network Schematics:

Earl K
08-25-2003, 08:31 AM
Hi lpd
Your link wasn't posted but Bo fixed that. I think an answer to your question has been previously addressed in this ( or the last ) forum quite a few times . Here's a worthwhile quote on the subject


"If I were you I would just bypass your current stock JBL metallized mylars and NPE's with the 0.01 uF AudioCaps and give that a listen first."

Do a search within the whole forum structure for "Bypass Caps (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=16093&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending) ". This will provide you with a basis of opinion that it's better to start your crossover renewel by bypassing the existing caps with .01 uf polypropylene types and then again "bypassing" the bypass cap with a .005 uf polystyrene type cap. This should "open up" the sonic qualities of your existing caps for cheap money.

Types to buy ? You can test-fly the "bypass" concept by purchasing caps from more mundane manufacturers. Try a local electronics shop for small quantities and for these values. You should still find that the concept offers great sonic improvements even from brands with little to no "Marque-value" .
If you've already done this "Bypassing"and aren't satified with the results then read the 4331 thread (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99&highlight=Bypass+Caps) for a few " pricey " recommendations. Also do a search for " Dayton Caps (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=16092&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending) ".

I'm personally quite happy with my "no name" main caps ( I actually don't know the type or manufacturer but they are smooth - & "slow" is not such a bad thing on a compression driver ). Because they're at least 20 years old they're likely Mylar types. ( Thats what I get for rummaging around in surplus parts bins). They resemble some of the caps found in 70's & 80s' Altec 1209 type crossovers. Mine are 75 VAC and I've never blown one apart - so I figure just about anything you buy these days ( usually over a 100 volts ) should be fine. I own a lot of Solen 400V "fast caps" but I find they aren't exactly complementary to JBL horn drivers.
I've never tried a "Charge-Coupled" topology to see if Solens sonic signature dissapears like I figure it might ( a worthwhile project to "eatup" my supply ).


regards ,> Earl K

4313B
08-25-2003, 08:46 AM
Here's the L300 schematic as well.

"Solen 400V "fast caps" but I find they aren't exactly complementary to JBL horn drivers."

That's always been my experience as well. :(

"I've never tried a "Charge-Coupled" topology to see if Solens sonic signature dissapears like I figure it might ( a worthwhile project to "eatup" my supply )."

It helped but didn't sufficiently fix the issue in my opinion, but I would really like to hear what your experiences are.



I would just try bypassing the stock JBL mylars with 0.01uF poly and foil. Polypropylene tends to yield excellent transient character while polystyrene tends to yield three dimensionality. The older JBL statement systems such as the L250 and 250Ti used both 0.01 uF polypropylene and 0.005 uF polystyrene.

scott fitlin
08-25-2003, 03:05 PM
My experience with caps for JBL and other vintage horn gear is a cap called Xicon! They used to be known as Transcap and they have a smooth sound! They arent expensive, but I have tried some VERY expensive caps that I always found to be TOO bright and forward sounding with JBL and Altec horns!

Xicon caps are available from www.partsexpress.com!


:scoot:

4313B
08-25-2003, 03:33 PM
"I have tried some VERY expensive caps that I always found to be TOO bright and forward sounding with JBL and Altec horns!"

Yeah, it's a balancing act to be sure. The polystyrenes should take off some of that brightness and forwardness associated with metallized polypropylenes while adding depth and transparency.

G.T. has said on numerous occasions to use the best polypropylene capacitors one can buy and then just charge couple them. That is the most expensive solution.

I'm pretty much done with funding dielectric research myself ;)

Earl K
08-25-2003, 05:49 PM
Hi Giskard

Charge Coupling Solens - "It helped but didn't sufficiently fix the issue in my opinion, but I would really like to hear what your experiences are."

- Truthfully, that determination process is a now a ways off. I've got a lot of other investigations in the queue. I made my last sudy of caps - about 2 1/2 years ago. I find it pretty exhausting - if not downright fatiguing. I listen, at lower levels ( around 70 db ), to just the compression drivers in these studies. It's the only way I can get a solid impression of whats going on - Still that experience has left a lasting resistance to run the gamut again. I will get to it and I'll let you know my impressions if this forum hasn't sunk below the waves .



personal investment grade - polypropylenes ,,,,," That is the most expensive solution. I'm pretty much done with funding dielectric research myself"

Yep, I'm also afraid for my pocketbook in that regard. Though I think nothing of spending inordinant amounts of cash on different brands and models of compression drivers - all in the name of personal research. At least with diaphragms and drivers, I find the differences are pretty obvious and measurable. FWIW, I wouldn't have thought that I'd like a 2410/175 diaphragm in the 2426 motor ( & of course, this is an unsanctioned matchup and can't be warrantied ). This combo reminds me of an Altec 802-8D which has/had - I think - an underweight diaphragm when first introduced - hence the ease at which it was prone to " breaking or popping " the internal coil leads.
"Delicate sound from a delicate mechanism".

regards ,>Earl K :)

Tom Loizeaux
08-25-2003, 06:18 PM
My response to these capacitor questions comes from a limited amount of experience with "tweaking" my 4343s' crossovers. I replaced a 4uf cap that had a broken lead with a similar type 3.9uf and paralled a .1uf Dayton with it. It was actually an original bypass cap that paralled a larger cap.
Then I added Dayton film/foil caps as bypass caps on all of the caps in the original crossover. I put .47 caps accross 72uf and 52uf caps, .22s accross the 20uf, .1 accross the 13.5uf, and .01s accross all the 1uf to 4 uf caps.
The idea is to "speed up" the transiants of the stock caps with significantly smaller value, high quality film/foil capacitors.
I never A/Bd differant makes of bypass caps but just went with the Daytons because I felt they would do the job.
If I wanted to replace original caps and not add bypass caps, I may have gone to AudioCap or some equivalent "high end" componant.
Again, without A/Bing the before/after sound, I find the completed crossovers to be very open, clear, and with plenty of attack and edge. The 4343s also exhibit a special smoothness that I find very satisfying.

Tom

lpd
08-25-2003, 06:59 PM
I'm a little confused here. The 1.5mf caps on the schematic is that a .15mf or a 1.5mf because the size difference is huge. I'm thinking of going with solen caps.

Thanks.

Earl K
08-25-2003, 08:25 PM
Hi lpd

(a) Circuit Cap Values

LF - the caps in that leg of the circuit are;
2 , 20uf caps
MF - the caps in that leg of the circuit are;
2, 16.5uf caps ( if you have the 3133a crossover - only one if you have the 3133 )
1, 1.5uf cap
HF - the caps in that leg of the circuit are;
1, 1.5uf cap
1, 1.0uf cap

(b) Replacement Priority(s)

If your going to replace caps. - I think the most audible effects are found in replacing those that are in series with the signal - especially that 16.5uf cap. in the horn circuit. - then the 1.5uf and 1.0uf in the tweeter circuit - then the 1.5uf in the horn circuit followed by the 2 parrallel caps in the woofer circuit.

regards <> Earl K

Earl K
09-14-2003, 01:23 PM
Hi All

I've moved my post here ( where maybe it's more appropriate ) - away from the Cloning The 4435 Network (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/editpost.php?s=&action=editpost&postid=6140) thread . The original following quotes/thoughts from Giskard on charge-coupling are located at the above link.


by Giskard
"This past week I built a pair of charge coupled networks using Dayton metallized polypropylene capacitors for mains and no bypass capacitors. ,,,, These things got very clear."

Thats interesting - do you still use this crossover ?


by Giskard
"Overall the sound quality of the unbypassed, non-charge coupled metallized polypropylene's wasn't as good as the stock metallized mylar bypassed with polystyrene and polypropylene. (Duh! We've only known that for over twenty years now) Charge coupled, the metallized polypropylene's were slightly better than stock, with lower distortion, better top end, and exceptional attack, but not as much depth and warmth."

I'm experiencing something very similar right now. As some may remember my system is biamped. I've replaced the DC blocking caps on my compression drivers. The old caps were those unknown type, red-ended tubular types that you/Gisakrd once caught a glimpse of . The replacement caps are metallized polypropylene in oil ( AC motor-run, made by Mallory - more "dumpster-diving" - metaphorically ) . I haven't charge-coupled these yet ( I will this week ) but based on a comparison of their sonic signatures , my old caps must be a Mylar type. The comparitive difference is quite stark. The old caps actually seem to offer a type of spectral compression/limiting in the midband area that keeps my compression drivers from jumping into my face. This apparent "torque" decrease does help the compression driver work in closer concert with the paper coned tranducers. It now seems my whole kludged together MTM setup has been "balanced" around the speed signature of these old caps. FWIW, the new caps are certainly closer sounding to " a straight -wire ". Too bad that, because in fact I'm looking for some actual filtering/slowing-action to help in the blending/voicing of the disparate component types.

I also bought "paper & oil" AC motor-run caps. Interesting, but they didn't have quite enough of the "soft-compression" signature I was looking for. In fact , they are a lot more "straight wire" than I expected. They are quite charming on trombones and tenor saxes/voices but certainly not as "clear & accurate or fast" as the Mallorys'. Lets say they are like filtering the polyproylenes through an MP3 algorithm. Bypassing them with a mix of Solens and other mystery-bin poly-types created something truly horrid . Well, actually, if one is an electric quitar player, it's a dielectric combo that might be useful for creative expression.


by Giskard
"I would say warmth is what was lacking most though."
- Did you ever recover that lost warmth ?

My system has lost apparent warmth and the front to back imaging has also taken quite a hit - I guess I should expect this when a compression driver is allowed to "straight-arm" the listener - like a rambling fullback in mid-stride. I've had to resort to using a 2123h instead of my usual le10 mid/bass to recover/invent/ some warmth. And I do love the neutrality of the le10 as a midbass driver but so far it just won't "shake-hands" with any polypropylene cap/compression driver combo . I like these Mallory caps and hear great promise in them which is why I haven't just turfed them and gone back to my mystery cap setup. Among the things that I like; - the apparent "Q" of my 45° horns changed when the polypropylene caps where intalled ( this also happened with the paper/oil type ) . Horn "Q" went down - and apparent midband dispersion went up.


by Giskard
" Needless to say, I will be installing some good film and foil bypass caps this week. Hopefully the Daytons won't respond negatively like Solen's do when bypassed."
- Did you do ever do this and how did the Daytons respond to the bypassing?


- I'm going to try blending dielectric types in a charge-coupled topology this coming week. ( One dielectric type on side"A" - the other type on side "B" ).

- Last week I found I could submerge the sonic signature of the polypropylene cap if I "swamped it" with huge values of the "Mylar" type. A 6 to 1 mix ratio made the polypropylenes' signature dissappear . This is what has led me to try blending different types - even with the predicted "timing" errors - though the class A charge-coupling ought to remedy that drawback. Has anyone ever tried this ?

regards <> Earl K :)

Ian Mackenzie
09-15-2003, 04:51 AM
Earl,

Very interesting comments about you cap blending experiements.

I had a similar experience when I tried my mockup 3145 network with the 2308/8 and slot.

For days I had sleepless nights at the rasping sound from the horns. I could just hear Jon saying..told ya so those 2307's........Seas shell sound...well this was way worse.

Well, one night I did some critical listeniing and the sound from the 2307 sounded clipped and rough as rags. (I checked the network over and over for shorts and faults but nup , no mistakes)

What I had was in the horn high pass was Holvands in parelleled with a metallized polypropylene (mid price rang part) to get the right values, thinking the Holvands would make the lesser expensive caps sound great.

As a last resort I pulled it all apart and parrelleled the a pair of Holvands to get 8uf and then used a Axon Musiccap (metalised polypropylene )12 uf for the other series capacitor.

The difference was chalk and cheese, clean, smooth and uncoloured sound. I am saving up for Hovlands all round and I suspect the 2307/08 has had its reputaiton some what spoiled by mid fi caps in the past.

Ian

4313B
09-15-2003, 06:34 AM
The stock JBL MM bypassed with MPP isn't a bad combination and the price is great. In the L250 and 250Ti G.T. added the MPS bypass caps as well and I've used this configuration of MM bypassed with MPP and MPS in every JBL system I've built since. Very economical and highly effective.

Over the years we've tried other combinations and I have to say (G.T. concurs) that the very popular Solen's are WAY too hot for JBL transducers. Electro-Cap was the MM capacitor of choice for many years but they were bought by RTI Electronics back in the mid to late 90's and I've yet to see them come back in the U.S. market.

On the question of the Dayton capacitors - I find the MPP less obnoxious than the Solen capacitors but even so...

I did bypass the Dayton MPP with Dayton PP&F and the result wasn't very nice. I replaced the Dayton PP&F with the AudioCap PP&F and the difference was astounding. The AudioCap is simply fantastic. I'm still waiting for my AudioCap PS&F to show up but for now the Dayton MPP bypassed with AudioCap PP&F is pretty impressive. I would prefer to use a top quality MM instead of the MPP but I haven't been able to find another source since the demise of Electro-Cap.

I have to agree with G.T. that the best course would be all biased PP&F but that is one very expensive proposition, especially in the larger systems that use large value capacitors. Incidentally, G.T. does not feel that the series capacitors are more critical than the parallel capacitors, he finds both equally affecting.

MM = metallized mylar
MPP = metallized polypropylene
MPS = metallized polystyrene
PP&F = polypropylene and foil
PS&F = polystyrene and foil

GordonW
09-15-2003, 08:20 AM
Giskard (or any of you other folks, naturally), you ever auditioned the GE 40L, 41L and 42L -series poly caps that Madisound sells, for bypass, etc? I've used those things, and so far, so good, I think...

Regards,
Gordon.

Earl K
09-15-2003, 09:57 AM
Hi Gordon

No, I haven't tried those GE caps.
Since I'm in Toronto, I'm forced to buy local (Cdn) solutions .
Shipping - border/brokerage costs force this direction - so much for NAFTA .

Does "GE" mean General Electric ?

My paper in oil "Motor Run" caps are General Electric .

regards <. Earl K :)

Earl K
09-15-2003, 10:07 AM
Hi



MM = metallized mylar
MPP = metallized polypropylene
MPS = metallized polystyrene
PP&F = polypropylene and foil
PS&F = polystyrene and foil

I need some education here. Does " film and foil" mean separate alternating layers of foil between the plastic layers - within the construction of the cap - as opposed to many metal-backed plastic layers, for "metallized" ?
Or is it something else ?

regards <> Earl K :)

Earl K
09-15-2003, 10:26 AM
Hi Ian

Thanks for sharing those thoughts about your capacitor induced insomnia.


For days I had sleepless nights at the rasping sound from the horns. I could just hear Jon saying..told ya so those 2307's........Seas shell sound...well this was way worse.

Imagine what will happen to your sleep patterns if you ever move to a bigger diaphragmed driver ( such as the 2430 ) and then remove those plastic lenses . I'm afraid even the Hovlands may not save your ears . :spin: :help:

- Of course, that's just idle speculation. Plus JBL doesn't seem very interested in selling these drivers . ( so in that spirit, I think the Altec 288-8K is a much better choice in the 3" category for a few reasons - though its' massive magnet size can be off-putting for the DIYer )
- just me tweeking JBLs' nose , :flamed:

regards <> Earl K

Ian Mackenzie
09-15-2003, 03:07 PM
Yeah I hear ya but.......,

But I would like to hear the 4344mk11, even if my ears have to be pegged back like a Rabbit..Muhahhahaha.

But seriously, my earlier 4343 diy of 20 years ago sounded a bit brutal in some ways....the diy crossovers used metallised polycarbonate capacitors.

The glare often associated with rigid metal radiator can also be directly attributed to solid state class A/B amps.

Sorry I'm on my soap box but hear me out thanks......

I started to appreciate this when I moved to pure class A about 3 years ago. The issue is the switching behaviour of the output stage of conventional A/b amps, no matter how well arranged the recurring odd order harmonics (of a series of aberrations) are particularly notice able to the ear.

The use of feedback to tame the above problem is also a sin the Pope would never Condon for it sucks the lifelike tonal character out of sound and contributes to the harshness by recirculating the offending damaged siginal .

There is also an apparent loss of very fine details or low level resolution.

Sounds like HiFi twackery I know, but I tried a dozen amps in a hifi club shoot out and they all produced some degree of ear bleeding compared the current reference diy X Aleph 100+100)

Some of you may recall the Stasis Theshold amps noted for their smooth clean sound back in the 70's & 80's. Well those designs are claimed to be a bit analytical compare the the current crop of X Series and earlier Aleph offering from the house of Passlabs.

A recent review in diyaudio.com.

The X Aleph had no problems at all man handling the Greg Timbers (JBL legend) 4345 JBL design with ease. The bass was a real surprise, it rendered space and timbre with accute accuracy and power. The vocals appear to be more visable to the eye and ear and all is revealed in the mix. The Micro dynamic resolve and instrumental clarity is spine tingling via the super 10 inch 2122 mid cone.

I find this quite exciting, at last an amp (a system) that allows you to view the portrait as is....... face on the canvas.

I'll get of my sop box now ...Muhahahahahahaha.

At least the black Art and Romance still lives with our favourite past time. Here his a recent picture of Pass taken at the CES.

Ian

Earl K
09-15-2003, 04:12 PM
Hi Ian


But I would like to hear the 4344mk11, even if my ears have to be pegged back like a Rabbit..Muhahhahaha.

Well, I doubt if it would ever to come to that .:duck: I'm pretty confident that JBLs' newest implementation of LCR resonance control circuits ( K2 style ) would have taken out most of the objectionable things that we are now talking about. Ever since they've allowed the public ( in the orient ) to listen to unfettered horns they have really paid a lot of attention to smoothing out the response anomalies .
I wonder whether the S9800 was smooth enough to be able to discern a lot of front to back depth. Jons' testamonials have usually included some mention of ear plugs or the need for ear plugs - some ones idea of listenable ( at JBL ) must detour dratiscally from mine. Jon ?

Anyhow, I really do appreciate the soap-box chat. :) :cheers:

And I realize that I've opened a veritable Pandoras' box in looking for driver fixes from simple filtering capacitors. Really, I'm just slogging my way forward knowing that eventually I'll likely have to learn how to ( efficiently ) implement those forementioned LCR control circuits. Until then - I'm exploring all the other remedies to a compression drivers obnoxious qualities . :spin:

Unfortunately ( for my ears ) most of my sonic explorations are driven/handcuffed by the need to make them appropriate or applicable in the SR world that I service. That's always present in my brain. Hence, some of my odd choice for eletronics - Behringer ? - really now !.

Secretly, I'm a closet "coner"- no jokes Bo. A few years back I had on the drawing boards my version of those large SOTA monitors ( made here in Ottawa - you posted a picture of one in the 43xx thread ). When Dynaudio stopped shipping components ( the same month I went to order parts ) - the project was shelved ( likely permanently ) .

I'll eventually move to class A amps - if only to give my ears a rest from all the "timing errors" that I'm presently immersed in.

FWIW, paper & oil caps sound pretty odd when "double" bypassed .


The X Aleph had no problems at all man handling the Greg Timbers (JBL legend) 4345 JBL design with ease. The bass was a real surprise, it rendered space and timbre with accute accuracy and power. The vocals appear to be more visable to the eye and ear and all is revealed in the mix. The Micro dynamic resolve and instrumental clarity is spine tingling via the super 10 inch 2122 mid cone.

I find this quite exciting, at last an amp (a system) that allows you to view the portrait as is....... face on the canvas.

A very nice quotation - thanks !

regards <> Earl K :)

luxmanlover
09-15-2003, 06:30 PM
In an effert to smooth out my very hot sounding Eminence CD's I tried using DC rated PIO caps,( Dr. Bruce Edgar claims they are the ticket for taking the edge off HE systems) of a salvage sort.
In the case of the Eminence piece, success was elusive, this was the fault of the driver and not the caps.
Just for reference I'll post a pic of this monsters for anyone who hasn't seen one.
The caps on the left are 8uf while the middle ones are a 22uF Solen and the stack of PIO it took to make up an equivelent 22uF on a test XO. The Caps on the right are .33uF Solen and Jensens. The monster in the back is a 16 uf!!!! 4500 DC rated unit. I'd be interested in seeing a pic of those Mallorys you liked Earl, if possible.
Kelly

Earl K
09-15-2003, 08:27 PM
Hi Kelly

Here's the pic that you asked for.

- there's a large 50 uf PIO cap in the back,
- then there's the 20 uf PIO cap somewhat centered - these are both G.E. types .
- the 17.5 uf Mallory metallized PolyPropylene is the smaller round can . It has a Mallory polystyrene cap with another small value PP bypass cap. The "spoiler" is a Seimens ( Europeon ) Metallized Polyester ( Mylar ) cap. It's 4.7 uf. It's part number is 21FD37175. But Mallory caps is now owned by Vishay Sprague (http://www.vishay.com/company/brands/sprague/) and I haven't been able to determine what has happened to this line of caps.
- The 22 uf Black cap with the red epoxy ends has been my main DC blocking cap. It's of unknown lineage and must be a Mylar type due to it's sonic signature. I make up 3 packs of these things ( as you can see ) and can easily create large uf numbers.

- The blue cap ( epoxy dipped type ) is another sort of unknown , though it's made by SunCap. - 1.5 uf . As a single or in pairs and parralleled with an appropriate resistor ( & more bypass caps ) - it constitutes my only HF response contouring . I'm beginning to believe this SunCap is a metallized polypropylene - only because it's more focussed than a comparable Philips type Mylar cap in the same job funtion. Just guessing though. Might be sharper sounding Mylar for all I know .

Oh yes , I forgot, the obvious Solens coupled with some green RC ??? Mylar types. ( Not enough Mylar in that mix ) :duck:

The inclusion of the B&C horns / DE16 driver are for todays amusement / the
2404 tweeter is for a size reference .

regards <. Earl K:)

Robh3606
09-15-2003, 08:55 PM
Well I will finally be able to add my 2 cents on this. Just got the time to build my charge coupled 4435 compensation circuit. I am using Solens:barf: for the first run cause thats what I have on hand and on the second try it will be Mylar and Metalized Polpropylene no Solens to see what the deal is. Both networks will be charge coupled and the Solens won't be bypassed based on Giskards experience with them. I have an unbypassed Solen in there now. Never tried to do this so I am curious to see what if anything I will hear. Not saying there is no difference just not sure how subtle the effect will be and not sure what to expect. Hope the parts will be here before the hurricane :eek:

Rob:smthsail:

luxmanlover
09-15-2003, 09:04 PM
I want to try a passive 2 way crossover between my 2123's and 2421/2470's as a possible alternative to tri-amping so I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that has messed around with something that looks more like a bomb than a XO. I found a lot of PIO caps in surplus stores so it would be fun to be able to put them to use. Were any of the caps you used DC rated. Supposedly the dc rated ones are superior but if you had favorable results from regular AC caps it would make sourcing much easier. The place I found most of this stuff had literally tons of AC Mallory caps.
Kelly

Alex Lancaster
09-15-2003, 10:07 PM
Aren´t Your caps the ones that got Lybians in trouble and a few people dead?

"Dayton" has been mentioned, are those out of Grainger?, We are getting Heavyyy Duty.

Alex.

luxmanlover
09-15-2003, 10:29 PM
Well....I guess if one of those old babies blew there might be enough PCB laced oil flying around to cause a little carnage. Good thing they are rated at 1000VDC.
Kelly

Actually I had a motor start cap go off right beside my melon, it wasn't pretty.

Alex Lancaster
09-15-2003, 11:07 PM
Luxman:

Years ago, I was in this business of making, selling, installing etc. Disco Stuff, We hired Engineering students, so, this really nice, hardworking, etc. nerd had the habit of hanging his head over Your shoulder, buzzard like, when You were really involved doing whatever, My partner who had a really wicked sense of humour, connected a polarized paper cap backwards, it exploded, and our nerd had His face covered with paper curls, too bad We did not have a camera, Party time!!.

Alex.

Ian Mackenzie
09-16-2003, 03:50 AM
Earl,

Thanks for the feedback.

Some more Musings on Caps....... 1/2 soap box...Muhahahahah

The problem here is we all have our own rooms, systems and speaker configurations all with differing xovers and resulting sounds so its hard to draw conclusions with our postings.

My own observations recently however suggest " quality film foil capacitors are vital for hi end performance". If you can't do that expect compromise in the subjective appraisal.

But I deeply respect experiementation to obtain a great result using cascaded caps, its fun and you can blend the sound to your own taste and system.

IMHO if you can hear the differences, the driver/horn is accurate and the fault lies elsewhere as I found recently. Soft domes and curved doped cones far more forgiving.

Up stream.......................... a short story......stop snoring.

Previously I tried quite a few coupling caps in my Phase Linear 3300 Series 11 preamp. The metallised Solen fast were the worst. I eventually used better Burr Brown chips(OPA 2132) with low offsets and removed the caps all together.

Finally, after long and painfull saga I realise the harshness of so called horns ( read JBLs) was in part due to the chip ics. I now run discrete class A stages in all preamplification.

(pro equipment uses chips (or are discrete) but they are biased into class A and designed for 24 db of headroom)

It would appear hard domes/diaphragms cop a lot of flack coz they are accurate being pure piston range drivers and reveal the crap in the domestic audio chain.

We are hardly domestic so woopy do.

Recently experiments here at macka's Juicy Mansons suggest a clean crisp source is vital and noted the 2307/08 & slot discriminates markedly on variations in quality of the sources as they direct more DIRECT output to the listener than the room and hence portray more accuracy over a reverberant sound field of the 2344. (IMHO)

Why does the TV broadcast signal sound tizzy and crackly when 24/96 digital is pure bliss. One can only assume SACD is even better.

I mean hello it aint the horns Man.

Regards the 4344mk11, No wonder Japan is one of the last live Hi End audio markets where horns are highly sort after along with exotic SE amps.


Ian


My favourite JBL pic (outside Bo's living room) I'm sure this owner was pleased with these 4344Mk11's , although their sale remains a mystery.:)

Earl K
09-16-2003, 05:03 AM
Hi Kelly

Well, ( tools of destruction? ) I can't help what my caps look like .


Were any of the caps you used DC rated. Supposedly the dc rated ones are superior but if you had favorable results from regular AC caps it would make sourcing much easier.

No , all my "motor run" caps are 50/60hz rated. I'll scout around and see if I can find any DC rated types.

Mallory made/makes ( according to an older catalog a couple of lines of AC motor run caps. They also made a couple of models of AC Motor Start caps - that I've heard one should avoid . Send me a PM if you need/want more info on Mallory model numbers for your shopping expeditions.

regards < Earl K

Earl K
09-16-2003, 06:50 AM
Hi Ian


IMHO if you can hear the differences, the driver/horn is accurate and the fault lies elsewhere as I found recently. Soft domes and curved doped cones far more forgiving.

Up stream.......................... a short story......stop snoring.

Well, no snoring from me .

Here's a system testamonial ;

What I've cobbled together is certainly accurate enough to display the sonic signatures of different CD players / different electronic crossovers / and different amps - and now I find, different cap types. Any change in those areas is immediately apparent. When my system isn't in one of its' too often "deconstructed" modes, it offers near holographic imaging. It even somehow manages to extract depth from 1930s mono recordings of big bands. How, I have no idea.
When it's fully tweaked I can walk around the room and the imaging is sooo stable and real - that I appear to be walking around in a theatre balcony . ( The height thing is a consequence of my the systems vertical restrictions) But even within just a foot and centered between the speakers this sonic illusion is there - if not stronger - as I said - its' like peering down onto a stage area within a 1200 seat theatre. As I mentioned in a different thread - all this imaging is painted "behind" the speakers .

So why change it ?

I'm tinkering with my caps because they occasionaly get "rattled" from the huge dynamic swings presented by soprano voices - specifically those found in Verdis' ( opera ) Nabucco - Deutsche Grammaphon . Usually because of my line of work , I'd ask / demand the bloody sopranos rethink their stage blockings to give the microphones a break - but obviously "they've left the building" long ago . Too bad that, because they should have been told to take "three steps back" Divas !!!! Ha ! No problem from the Tenors .


Now because I'm a curious sort, I own a lot of the JBL/Altec componentry of the sort that we talk about - that's what drives some of my deconstruction .
When someone mentions something - I go to my Noahs ark of stuff and do my best to implement the topic. ( So much talk about the 2122 almost has me buying some. )

My thoughts on the 2344 horn and the 2307/2311/2308 combos are that generally they provide so much inherent mechanically induced filtering that a goodly portion of electrical/electronic filtering options/needs are negated. ie; they've had so much of the stuffing knocked out of them (by mechanical design ) that they'll blend/voice with just about anything. That's an overstated criticism/observation - and articulated to just make a point. Filtering can be mechanical or electrical. Right now I choose electrical .
My electrical filtering quest is to essentially to get back there from here but all the while preserving what those horns can't deliver.

regards <. Earl K

Earl K
09-18-2003, 04:38 PM
Well it's certainly taken me long enough to get to this point.

First off; Wow !!! :jawdrop:
Beautiful :thmbsup:

The class A biasing of the capacitors is really the best thing I've heard in a long, long time .

I just have one side up and running. Additionally , the RC HF-boost/ midrange-suppression circuit is still running class AB.

One thing I like about this setup is the ease at which one can hear the different sonic signatures given off by the different dielectrics.

I more or less just jumped right in without following the planned path. Truthfully , ADD was setting in with the blending of cap types in the AB bias - and it was either jump ship now or leave town .

This bias setup is by far the easiest way to mix caps together to suit ones taste.

Of my caps tested;

(i) With regular type x Mylars ( 66 uf per side bypassed with polystyrene ) the signature from this cap appears as; "tightly wound" - lacking the ability to breathe much at all, but still retaining a nice midrange focus - so, lacking some warmth ( and sparkle ).
(ii) PIO - even just 20uf substituted into one side adds that ability of the lower mids to breathe and as a consequence seems to add a lot of warmth to the mylars ( a little sparkle ).
(iii) Polypropylene in oil - 17.5uf substituted in kept some of the oils warmth while enhancing the presence area - I guess because of the MPP portion of the cap.
(iv) Solens/Mylar mix - 29uf total (19uf of Solen content ) - substituted into one side opposite the 66uf three pack of Mylars . Well the sonic balance tipped immediately . Man those are "HOT" capacitors . :flamer: Way too much presence. They were yanked in tens of seconds. I'll revisit them with straight paper in oil to see if there's any hope .


As I said , I'm just doing this in mono right now. The other side is a straight wire ( no DC blocking caps ) - with a RC network for HF enhancement. So I don't know what's happening for the total - in regards to front to back depth. There's such a speed difference between the 2 sides that right now that they appear as almost 2 separate sources.

- You'll notice I've paid no attention to maintaining symmetrical/balanced loads fo the cap values across the 2 sides. JBL runs this way ( unbalanced ) in a few places in their K2 networks. I suppose they felt the concept is inherently self balancing in an AC network ( even across inductors ).

- I'll come back to this later.

regards <> Earl K :beamup: ( back to listening )

PSS AUDIO
09-19-2003, 01:38 AM
I already heard something like that, but it was about amplifiers!

From my own and small experience I can say that when I received my 4350 speakers last year, I was quite disappointed and not that much satisfied, the 2405 were working but not that nice.

By opening the x-over box I checked all the wires and soldering and discovered a bad one, one of the 2405 ran better.

Fed up of this odd situation, I dismantled the two x-over and removed all the caps.

I replaced them with polypropylene ones from a well-known French manufacturer: SCR.

And suddenly the cabinet began sounding great!

Some add for PSS now: We were manufacturing some standard x-over wired on epoxy PCB, air coil and those SCR capacitors. Everybody was quite surprised about how nice his speaker worked.

It is well known that polystyrene capacitors are one of the best and must be used for an audiophile result.

From what I read here and there, you seem to have some difficulties buying such capacitors and you are complaining too that they are quite expensive.

We have quite good stock left as we stopped manufacturing our x-over (not enough sales and quite “expensive” compared to regular x-over made of non-polarized electrolytic capacitors).

That is why; if you collect all your needs I can manage shipping at a very good prices SCR capacitors.

Please Email me if you need such caps!

If you want to see what they are looking like, browse our web site, product page!

Earl K
09-19-2003, 05:58 AM
Hi Yuri

Thankyou for the information and your offer to sell your SCR caps. I'll collect my needs and send you a PM to see what we can work out.

Since I'm in Toronto, I do have available all the typical audiophile stuff. In fact , in my area there's an online store that offers such wares. They are called " parts connection " (http://www.partsconnexion.com/econnexion/econnex_v1n3/econnex_v1n3.html) . They have a pretty extensive list of all the reported "good stuff". But alas, since I consider my explorations in the sonic signatures of capacitors to be akin to one of the "student" - well, my student type budget doesn't allow me to comfortably shop at their premises.

If you have a huge quantity of these caps to move , I'd suggest you contact the owners of online stores like MadiSound (http://www.madisound.com/) or Parts Express (http://www.partsexpress.com/) who are interested in providing cost effective solutions for the audio community .

Thanks <. Earl K :)

4313B
09-19-2003, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by Earl K
The class A biasing of the capacitors is really the best thing I've heard in a long, long time.
You didn't seem too excited about the prospect at first so I'm glad you tested it out :)

What I would like to bias now is a 4-way 43xx series system :yes:

PSS AUDIO
09-19-2003, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by Earl K
They are called " parts connection " (http://www.partsconnexion.com/econnexion/econnex_v1n3/econnex_v1n3.html) .

Earl,

Do you mean that they sell a 1,5MF 200V polypropylene capacitor at 23$?

The one we have from SCR, is in fact smaller as it is only 24mm long for 11mm in diameter.

But the price is by far more lower! Selling it back 5 € and we can offer you a bottle of Champaign with each order…

The smallest cap we have is 1MF, the biggest one is 47MF.

Earl K
09-19-2003, 07:21 AM
Hi Yuri


Do you mean that they sell a 1,5MF 200V polypropylene capacitor at 23$?

Yes, that price seems about right for one of the upper-end caps they offer. I'm not sure which manufacturer you're quoting. If you check other online stores you'll see that those prices are inline or "competitive".


The smallest cap we have is 1MF, the biggest one is 47MF.

That's good to know. Thanks !

< Earl K :)

Earl K
09-19-2003, 07:55 AM
Hi Giskard


You didn't seem too excited about the prospect at first so I'm glad you tested it out

Well, that's not the impression I intended. It's just that I haven't been accused of being quick in my explorations - maybe methodical - but not quick . Hence my earlier glacier reference ( among its' other uses ).

Also , my found "excitement" over the biasing concept is its' ability to easily incorporate/blend - and therefore audition dielectric sonic signatures . Right now "Filtering" in a broad sense of the word is an interest.

Parralleled AB mode capacitor testing was way beyond even my patience level . It was beyond the allocated project time to determine the most significant contributors to the audible timing errors I was creating . The many combination of paralleled caps was great at creating multiple types of grain or top end hash. Hence my fairly quick exit from that project and entrance to the biased type system. The biased system seems to remove a lot of these concerns ( with combining big value stuff ).


What I would like to bias now is a 4-way 43xx series system

I guess I would also if I had such a system and I wasn't already biamping/multiamping. Though I'd be interested in taking on the challenge just to see if there's a gain in homogeny from using one extraordinary sounding amp with a charge-coupled network utilyzing experience-chosen LC components . Unfortunately/Fortunately none of the necessary elements exist right now to pursue that thought.

regards <. Earl K

Ian Mackenzie
09-19-2003, 08:34 AM
This weekend I'll run some more tests on IT..if you are interested?

I'm sure the FFT phase plot from the acoustic drive on axis from the 4345 configuration would be worth a look.

I was also going to run some test on the actual network to see how they compare the the spice simulations..maybe on Sunday I will be able to post the results.

Back to The Eagles Hell Freezes over a few beers.

Ian

My favourite soldering is BIG networks, here are the 3135 chokes just before being mailed to your shores for Kent English of Passlabs in Foresthill County.

Robh3606
09-19-2003, 10:09 AM
Hey Bo

When I set up my charge coupled 4435 compensation network I had a phase issue. I guess the 2 caps in series is a 180 shift so I had a dip in the 900hz and up band to just above the crossover point. Wasn't there with just the single 2.5uf cap. So a simple phase reversal and all was well. It had me chasing my tail because this was the first time I used the complete network and I thought I had miss-wired them.:banghead: What a great network that is. After messing with my half baked creations these were a pleasure to install.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
09-22-2003, 03:40 AM
My idea of a phase plot did not work out, just a whole lot of zigzag lines.

Anyway here is a rough response curve of the jigged baffle.

Ian;)

Ps It sounds miles better than it looks.....

Ian Mackenzie
09-22-2003, 03:47 AM
Heres my pizza crossover, my first attempt on the day I launched the original project with the assistance some friends from the Melbourne Audio Club

Yes we celebrated with some red wine and I'm not the guy in the red check shirt......the other sober bloke....Muhahahahah)

Ian:rolleyes:

Ian Mackenzie
09-22-2003, 03:50 AM
Another angle, although this probably belongs in the 4345 plans thread, Bo may wish to relocate this.

I recall it actually sound pretty good even to start off with, the focus was the box construction at the time and using all the spare parts I had lying around the house.

The crossover was text book initially and some tweeking later with IMP it was close the a ruler +- 4db, the 2397 is remarkable smooth. The capacitors where cheap metalised polypropolyene, they seemed to tame the Phase Linear 400 on mids and highs!!

Since then there has been a certain amount of evolution & refinement, the JBL 2344, the JBL 2122 thanks to Rob and reduction of volume and replacement of polyester with fibre glass and re tuning per 4345 and original 4345 drivers (courtesy of GT and you Fab guys on the Forum)


Ian:D

Robh3606
09-24-2003, 08:08 AM
Nice photos Ian!

Got my mylars up and running. Did it on the cheap from Madisound. Got some Carli Mylars and some of the GE Poly's which are very large!! compared to the Solens. I have them set-up charge coupled and they sound great!

Rob:)

Earl K
09-30-2003, 05:35 AM
Hi All

Re; about furthering my education on capacitors. :confused:

(i) Which type of capacitor construction methodology came first: "Film & Foil" or "Metallized Film" ?
(ii) Does a "Film & Foil" type result in a bulkier capacitor compared to "Metallized Film" for equal capacitance ?
(iii) Re; metallizing a film - is this a process that was developed for the purposes of cost cutting &/or for the shrinking of components ?
(iv) Does the separate layering of film & foil imply more consistent dielectric properties compared to metallized film ?
(v) Is a Polystyrene type always a film & foil ? or can a polystyrene film be metallized ?
(vi) If a person happens upon an unknown make of polypropylene capacitor that seems inordinately large for its' uf value , then should one be assuming that it's construction method is of "Film & Foil " ?
(vii) Where does Polycarbonate film as a dielectric type fit into the quality matrix ?

Thanks < .Earl K:)

Earl K
09-30-2003, 05:42 AM
Hi Robh


Are you mixing & matching different capacitor types together in your charge coupled networks ? If so , in what manner ?

Have you auditioned those 2 types separately - and been able to determine any sonic signatures between the two class types ?

I've been doing that for about a week now and will be posting my thoughts sometime this week regarding what I've heard .

regards <.Earl K :cheers:

Robh3606
09-30-2003, 06:48 AM
Hello Earl

I am using the 4435 network with my 2344's so the only caps I have at all in the system is the compensation cap a single 2.5uf or 2 5uf in parralel . The rest is active. Using Charge Coupling in a full passive set-up I would expect would be much easier to evaluate. I certainly did not expect any drastic changes and figured they would be subtle at best.

I have tried 3 types. Solens straight up no bypass, Solens C Coupled, and now Mylar with a .33 and .01 Poly bypass C Coupled. The bypass caps are the GE type and a Parts Express .01 Audio Grade bypass. I have not tried different ratios except for what would be considered bypass caps. I have Axons in my Center and wonder if they are just Solens rebranded. Never know who the real manufacturer is once they are "custom branded". I am looking for Polystyrenes to use in place of the .01's can't seem to find them.

Sonics well take this with a grain of salt. I usually don't get into this kind of detail as it is so subjective, really should do some blind evals like DBT's to remove bias, but here goes.

The Solens straight up are what I have always used. So I am used to them from the get go. That said I would hear some harshness and edginess and would just figure it was there. When I charge coupled them, with no bypass, things seemed to change a bit. Not as harsh which is not really the right word. Hard to describe and things seemed to open up. The real change was the Charge Coupled Mylars. Things just got better. More open the clarity seemed to increase. Many times smoother means less or rolled off highs. Not with this smoother with no loss of high frequency response and more detail to boot which is usually what you seem to loose with the highs rolled off. A win win all around. When I get some spair cash I will try a couple of Auracaps but I am very happy with this as it stands now. Looking forward to your comments.

Rob:) :cheers:

Earl K
09-30-2003, 07:19 AM
Hi Rob

Thanks for the quick reply. I realize asking for opinions on this topic is just sooo subjective - but then - thats what musical enjoyment is all about.

FWIW; your comments fairly neatly track my experiences to this date. In fact, I'm now quite sceptical about whether or not I'd ever want to listen to a JBL driver with just polypropylene between the signal & my ears. ( that's a challenge to Hovland to ship me $700.00 of free caps for evaluation ). I find I have to always mix in some Mylar to balance against MPP. "Time Smear" as Hovland will comment is not an issue if one keeps different types on separate sides of the polarizing resistor. I find the different dielectric types enhance different octaves. Unfortunately ( for MPP ) it's most transparent area seems to be just about the same area that in JBL drivers is most prone to audible / modal / diaphragm breakup . Solens have an exaggerated sense in this area - - they seem to offer not enough below or above this danger range to balance the "Pandoras Box" of sound they just let through . I'm still searching for things to help create that balance for the Solens . ( they are "fast" & priced to move, afterall ) ..

All my listening is done in a biamp mode - these capacitors are just there as DC blockers - so I'm dealing with large values ( up to 120 uf at times in the C-C network ). I haven't C-C my RC compesation networks - just overloaded them with polystyrenes .

I have created some highly listenable/likeable combos - that almost make me forget that a "straight-wire" still sounds best . ( and just for you Rob. - I find the "phase changes" from adding any DC blocking cap network is highly audible.) The addition of this new "part" consistently changes the amount of depth I perceive in the soundstage ( it always collapses to some degree and moves forward ). I was blaming low quality caps for a while but now I find I can restore some of the lost depth by time-aligning - more or less . Should have thought of that earlier.

regards <> Earl K :)

Ian Mackenzie
09-30-2003, 08:26 AM
Earl,

Just having my night cap before nodding off (Bo thinks I never sleep....muhahahaha)

Great to see some more subjective reviews.

I know exactly what you are saying about the Solens.. a sort of itchy sound that gets right up your nose, like a veiling of certain ssss sounds.

I think the Solen film foils are worse, IMO they are wrapped too tight (in the blurb Solen remark about the precision winding of film/foil on high tension machines), tight winding tends to accentuate certain spatial capacitor qualities.

In the JBL library there is some interesting comments from JBL about capacitor dieletric winding tensions and the effect of biasing.

I heard Solens in a Cary SET used as coupling caps a while back, they destroyed the velvet sound of the amp, yes it was more detailed, but sounded unnatural to me and I felt irritated and could not enjoy the music.

I think the AEON caps are somewhat different, they are more relaxed, and tend to improve with film/foil bypassing. I'm using AEON 60 uf bypassed with 0.1 film foil AEON for the 2122 high pass network. Its very clean and snappy

I recall when I bought Hovlands for the 2344's / 2420/Dr2426R8 and was quite sceptical having paid about $200AUS for 4 caps.....

Anyways when I installed them they sounded actually quite sweet tonally, and yet still portrayed micro dynamics without any harhness at all. They improved with breakin after about 50 hours.

I never bothered to bypass or bias them.

I have since bought some more Hovlands for the 2405 network, and a fellow audio collegue has commented the 2405s do not spit like he recalled previously.



Ian

Here you can just see the AEONs with bypass film /foil in the rear mounted crossover board of my big JBL's.:smthsail:

Earl K
09-30-2003, 09:06 AM
Hi Ian

Thanks for your thoughts on this. Much appreciated. As you can probably surmise,,, I'm trying to wiggle out of the need to purchase Hovlands - and will likely exhaust many avenues first - the C-C network is a great test-bed for this feint . :slink:


a sort of itchy sound that gets right up your nose, like a veiling of certain ssss sounds. Yes, it sounds like a sort of crossover distortion that's impossible to ignore - and it just worsens with bypassing. But before burying Solen - to be fair to them , I'm going to have to do extensive listening to Altec drivers with Solens. I find Altecs have a completely different damping characteristic ( translated into capacitor speak - they sound more like my Mylar cap signatures ) - as a consequence they might be able to benefit from the "heat" the Solen gives. This is of course a lot of blah blah to most - but oh well ! :blah: :montyp:

re; the "AEONs" . Forgive my ignorance but what type of cap are they ? & Where/Who are they available/from ?

regards <> Earl K :) :smthsail:

4313B
09-30-2003, 09:09 AM
"But before burying Solen - to be fair to them , I'm going to have to do extensive listening to Altec drivers with Solens."

Good idea. And not just Altec drivers either. :)

Earl K
09-30-2003, 09:59 AM
Hi Giskard

And not just Altec drivers either.

Actually my first thought was to try that test with my B&C DE25 drivers.
They have Mylar diaphragms which to my ears always need something added . My observation about Mylar diaphragms is they are somewhat reminiscent of a full-range phenolic - though not nearly as slow and rounded in the leading edge but going down that same road. A nice diaphragm for up close & personal listening. Adding some edge ( a Solen ) back to the leading edge might be a good idea (even if it is a contrived sort of thing ) . :blah:

regards < .Earl K:)

Ian Mackenzie
09-30-2003, 03:01 PM
Earl,

The AEON's are metalised polyrop, 250 volt,

It just occurred to me you could also try the cheaper North Creek metalised capacitors.

They are made for audio crossovers and have been wound to be more mellow than conventional polyprop caps.

Here is the link:http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Zen.html

There is also some cool stuff there on bypassing.

Ian

:cool:

GordonW
09-30-2003, 03:12 PM
Are those Aeons, or are they Axons... the caps from Orca Designs, made in Germany? Because I have used other Axon stuff, but never seen Aeon caps... that'd be a new one on me!

Now, the Axon logo kind of LOOKS looks like the X is an E, due to the stylized script they use... that might be the source of the confusion?? :confused: I've attached a pic of the Axon logo...

Regards,
Gordon.

Ian Mackenzie
09-30-2003, 03:17 PM
Gordon,

Thats a good observation,

Mine are definately the Aeons by Orca from a local distributor.

(sorry if I confused anyone)

Ian:)

4313B
09-30-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
It just occurred to me you could also try the cheaper North Creek metalised capacitors.

They are made for audio crossovers and have been wound to be more mellow than conventional polyprop caps.

Here is the link:http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Zen.html

There is also some cool stuff there on bypassing.

Ian

:cool:
Yeah, we went over this in the first version of the forum. Or maybe it was the second version ;) Anyway, I'm glad it's being brought up again though and you guys are sorting it all out because I'm sure sick of "ranting" about it :rotfl:

Check these out too if you can

http://www.rtie.com/imb/audio_fc.htm

They bought Electro-Cap which many of you with old JBL's might notice is stamped on some of your capacitors. G.T. has stated that he thought Electro-Cap was very good.

Earl K
09-30-2003, 05:10 PM
Hi Ian / Giskard

Thanks for the links guys. :) I had forgotten all about North Creek. They even answered most of my capacitor construction questions .

Plus, I just found out today what happens when an overdose of polystyrene bypass caps is added into my system .

"Too much air turns into a low-lying fog" - hindering visibility .

regards <. Earl K ( having way too much fun cooking with caps ) :dancin: & :spin:

4313B
10-01-2003, 07:10 AM
"Notice to Polystyrene Capacitor Customers:

Our Full Line of Polystyrene Capacitors Is Once More Available

Bas Lim at Reliable Capacitors has developed a new, reliable source of polystyrene film dielectric for capacitors. After testing the new film for six months, Reliable and Finch & Marsh are able once more to offer their full range of polystyrene AudioCaps, MultiCaps, and Rels"

http://www.capacitors.com/

Earl K
10-01-2003, 02:26 PM
Hi Ian


I heard Solens in a Cary SET used as coupling caps a while back, they destroyed the velvet sound of the amp, yes it was more detailed, but sounded unnatural to me and I felt irritated and could not enjoy the music.


After overdosing on big value Mallory polystyrenes for a couple of days , I feel I now fully understand that statement ( in reverse ). I was able to add so much air to the top end of my large format drivers with the polystyrenes that the new addition actually blanketed out most of the great articulation & depth that had existed before I started mucking about. Without something else to bring in clarity - it was ever so smooth & silky - just not very articulate or clear or detailed . That situation even existed with no DC blocking caps in place. I have just today increased the MPP count on both sides and actually added a bit (.47uf) of Solens to the one side that uses an aluminum diaphragm. This has restored a ton of clarity / speed / & depth of field . Yep, a lot of fun .:bouncy:
I wonder now whether or not that Cary SET is heavily weighted with polystyrenes.

I've retired my Charge-Coupled Network for the time being while I work on the RC midrange suppression balance . I need to rethink it's usage .

Additionally & maybe most significant, it seems the C-C network is weighing down the tiny power supply capacitors as found in my Bryston 2BLP. If one compares physical sizes of load cap to amplifier source cap I was up to about a 2 or 3 to 1 ratio ( in strict cubic displacement ). The culprit seems to be the need to quadruple the size of capacitance load - as seen by the amp. I have a feeling that is untenable for the maintenance of the amplifiers performance. I sure heard a significant "hit" in speed from this setup. Using 4 physically huge 20uf oil caps just made that speed hit worse - amp turned into a slug with just about no top end . This also contributed to my collapsing sound-stage .

So, I'm back living with bypassed MPP in oil. These seem to offer a nice balance to all these factors & consideratons .

regards < .Earl K :smthsail:

Earl K
10-01-2003, 02:27 PM
Hi Giskard

Were Electro Caps Polypropylene or Mylar ?

regards < Earl K :)

4313B
10-01-2003, 02:40 PM
Hi Earl,

The ones JBL used were mylar.

I used to buy their mylar for mains and their 0.01 uF polypropylene and 0.005 uF polystyrene for bypassers, basically G.T.'s formula for systems such as the L250, 250Ti, XPL200A, etc.

Ian Mackenzie
10-01-2003, 02:50 PM
Earl,

Its like tomato source, add a bit and it helps, pour it on and out forget whats under it.

Some say you should only add 1/100th or 1000th the original value while others say cascade with decreasing values (but I think that are referring to caps of the same kind/brand).

To quote North Creek

"Classically, bypassing a capacitor means paralleling a very small cap (0.5% to 1% of the base cap) to improve the effective high frequency performance of the base cap. While this works to a point, the problem with simple bypassing it that it tends to sound a little discontinuous, with the large cap dominating the signature at the low end while the bypass cap dominates the upper extreme."

"Cascade Bypassing (or simply "Cascading") is a bypassing method that yields the best and most homogeneous sounding combination of capacitance. Cascading is essentially paralleling smaller and smaller capacitors of increasing voltage to reach the target value. We usually suggest a cascade of 5% to 25% steps, with each smaller cap having a higher voltage rating."

"Cascading sounds better than simple bypassing because it yields an overall homogeneity to the sound of the equivalent capacitor"


Regards amp loading I recall in the 5235 manual they give guide lines on DC blockers, provided they are in series it should not matter to the amp.

By the way, North Creek have some Zen 100ufs metalised caps on special, bypassed with their Harmony woul be cool.

"Harmony Capacitors were designed specifically to bypass other metallized capacitors. Their signature is lightweight with a wealth of detail, and the top end has a nice sparkle without being bright or forward. They are also much quieter than most capacitors, particularly those that wound with very high tension. We best describe the Harmony caps as "cleaning up the sound" of other capacitors"

I may even order some for a play while on holidays.

Ian:smthsail:

Earl K
10-02-2003, 05:29 AM
Hi Ian

Well I'm sorely tempted at some time to purchase any product that someone feels is their "best timbral balance" sort thing. The reason ? It's always nice to know what others are thinking. The specials at North Creek are very tempting. I suppose if I don't like them - I might be able to sell them. I'm going to mull this over for about a week or so . :spin:

Recently I've created many pleasing mixes of dielectrics. I'm starting a spread-sheet for these recipes. Actually, most of them roughly follow the aforementioned "Cascade" approach. To further explore the classical bypass approach I need to get my hands on more large value Mylars. I already own a ton of these but I need some from a different manufacturer. Mine are certainly not generous to the lower octaves. Adding more capacitance doesn't change this characteristic at all. Reminiscent of the Zen 100 chit-chat at the North Creek site - my Mylars have quite a distinct midrange focus ( but unfortunately lack warmth ) . My Mylars are rated as 75 volts AC.

Something I'll say positive about oil based caps is that the ones I've heard/own are generous ( maybe to a fault ) into their lower ranges - as such they maintain any warmth that existed in the original signal . Additional spectral suppression filtering whilst using them as a "backbone" value will alter a timbral balance - nudging a sound towards this warmer nuance. Too much and they "mush out" as opposed to "fog out" as with the polystyrenes . My Mallory MPP in oil type caps actually "accept" Solens quite well. The Solens can be used for a bit of buttressing in the presence area that they so "overachieve" in . The oil based MPP are a bit soft in this area - though that compliments some titanium diaphragms nicely . :)
:cheers:
<. Earl K

Ian Mackenzie
10-02-2003, 06:47 AM
Earl,

Tell me a bit about your system, the front end amplification & power amps, and how it has evolved in recent times?

I refer to this as I have found (IMHO) over the last 18 months that any capacitor acts as a filter of the signal, and the effect of the filtering is appears to be more obvious when the ear is perceptive of odd order harmonic distortions particularly the 3rd, 5th 7 th 9th etc.

Some refer to this a sonic glare, and my theory is that the capacitor tends to chew this over causing a shift in the spectral balance, i.e. the harmonics become spread unevenly, hence some prefer (OCL) direct capacitor-less signal paths (but they can sound raw and dry)

However, the presence of even order harmonics is often pleasing and can add a favourable tonality to the sound. The inherent sound is smooth and warm, and the impact of the capacitor (filter) is more one of balance, transparency and resolving power.

I have found that with the purest signal possible and a hint of even harmonics the apparent effect of the capacitors if they are half way decent,( i.e. black Gates, Nichicon Muse, Elna Silmics AEON, Holvands) is to add less colour or cloudiness to the sound and let more information and nuance through so the whole business is a sense of engagement rather than angst.

With glare or dirt in the sound it was like pulling tiny sharp fish bones out of your mouth and then shallowing 1/2 a loaf of bread to play it safe. The problem for so many of us is to know when do we actually have a pure signal....I Mean Hello Man.

IMHO simplicity and excellence of execution seems to work well when it comes to purity, and I attach the schematic which is the conceptual basis of my amplification for your interest. There are only two stages and this topology (c Nelson Pass & G Rollins) is referred to balanced single ended amplification.

Most of us have heard the phrase SE "single ended amplification", this is a variation that uses dual SE amps to drive both the positive and negative sides of the signal path. They are both made to operate in a matched identical manner (super symmetry) with a small amount of feedback. The effect of feeding an active positive and negative signal to the output (X) is total cancellation of inherent distortions. The result is a very pure and dynamic signal.

All this does not mean to say the amps we are all using are not pure or totally pure, its just puts a different slant on the so called Blameless Capacitor we all have in the signal path at the speakers. Are they to blame?........just ask your amps and source.

Ian









:smthsail: :smthsail:

Earl K
10-05-2003, 01:19 PM
Hi Ian

I had wanted to limit my participaton in this thread to the creative use & application of capacitors ( in all their different types ) . I'm pretty sure that I'm on record somewhere in the forum as agreeing that class A biasing of an electronic circuit will offer a purer sound to the end user.

Having said that; I'm in the business of getting paid to massage sound signals , ultimately for the consumption and audition of others. So because my living is dependant on the audio for video market, I confine most of my listening to circuits that I feel are representative of this ilk. That drives my choice of the Mackie 1202 mixer as a preamp. It's circuit is ubiquitous to my business, whether I like it or not. This circuit type represents about 65% of my listening time. And it requires a particular approach for capacitance filtering . This is also a portion of the playback chain that has wowed certain friends/peers of mine who own a lot of class A products ( within their personal touring racks ).

The second circuit that I listen to; is with the 1202 bypassed - with my Denon CD player directly feeding my first generation Behringer 2way cross-over ( again chosen for the ubiquitous nature of its' circuitry ). This more direct approach again has specific filtering needs. This circuit is faster ( as you can imagine ) and really underscores that fact that my present ratio of metal to paper is way out of whack. For this quasi 2way MTM system to seem at least halfway voiced - capacitors that slow down certain octaves are required. This exaggerated ratio ( metal to paper ) is in place for a purpose- simply put it - it helps when listening to a capacitors' specific sonic signature. But honestly, it is a voicing thats' near impossible to really make work ( though removing a lot of Polypropylene from the filtering combination helps ). The le14 sounds like a real loafer when mated with a 2441 sitting directly on top of it. The faster 1400nd mated to the 435be seems to be JBLs' choice of sonic marriages. I'm on record in other threads as stating that the 3" diaphragm is a better fit - from a voicing point of view. I use an Altec 288 when I get fatigued of all this horse play.

I appreciate your advocacy of the class "A" bias ( its' the same sort of advocacy that has led to my huge collection of aquaplased le10s & le14s ) - but at this time that circuit migration doesn't serve my purposes.

And so, now it's back to massaging sound . :yes: :spin:

regards <> Earl K :)

Ian Mackenzie
10-06-2003, 03:48 AM
Earl,

Very interesting, love to hear an MP3 file of your recent works.

Have an old article from Audio Amateur soemwhere by guy who actually designed a Class A mixer from scratch for recordings in a Greek Ampitheatre.

He reseached the market and found the original discrete Jensen opamp one of the best and also the All Fet Borbley line buffers.

I'm sure the Mackie serves you well.

regards

Ian:smthsail:

scott fitlin
10-08-2003, 10:56 AM
Earl, have you ever used any Black gate or Elna cerafine electrolytics? If so, what are your opinions on these? I would really like your take on these if you have any info to share! Thanks!

Earl K
10-08-2003, 03:14 PM
Hi Scott

Sorry, I have no experience with listening to electrolytics . Are the 2 that you mentioned supposed to be good sounding ?

My only opinion is just a regurgitation of opinon from others who say that all electrolytics display significant amounts of hystersis compared to the plastic film types. I can't back that up that with any personal sonic impressions.

FWIW; here's an interesting web page about the sound of capacitors (http://members.aol.com/sbench102/caps.html) . My opinion of this displayed info is mixed. I see it showing comparitive linearity of the dielectric types ( or a visual display of the presence or lack of crossover distortion ) but I don't see what I would call some of the other contributing factors to the sound of a capacitor - such as it's speed of response vs its' frequency spectrum . Still it's very valuable info .

I've been thinking of buying some caps that are supposed to sound horrible ( such as ceramics ) - just to create a reference . I now have a huge collection of different poly sorts plus some oil based types. These should ( I think ) well represent the different genres. I prefer to listen to these "no-name" types , because a certain dielectrics' sonic signature should reveal itself - if there's anything to the topic. ( Which there is - IMHO )

regards <. Earl K :)

scott fitlin
10-08-2003, 03:51 PM
yes Blackgates are supposed to do wonders for the audio! Even just replacing power supply caps with Blackgates is supposed to be astounding! Supposedly, because of the fine graphite particles and construction of these caps they are supoposed to NOT posses the evils that plague ordinary electrolytics!

I was thinking of experimenting, but they are expensive, and I am unsure of how they will actually perform! I have heard both good and bad about them.

Elna cerfine is the same basic principle as Blackgate but they use a fine ceramic particle instead of graphite.

I just thought you, being the cap guru, might have had some info on them!

Thanks!

Earl K
10-08-2003, 05:19 PM
Hi Scott


I just thought you, being the cap guru, might have had some info on them! Thanks but :rotfl: you're confusing me with someone else . Really this is all at the instigation of Robert G / plus I also credit/blame him for my huge supply of white-coned le( 10s & 14s ). My collection of caps is now beyond a couple of hundred and climbing. All are generic types like Philips, Seimens, RC, Mallory, F-DYNE, Suncap, & some unkown types . Great fun !!!



- It's a little like asking my opinion about being a steamboat captain on the Mississippi , while I'm in "midfroth" on some wild "white-water" rafting holiday ( or something ). Yes I'm wet (all) but that's the extent of it .:spin:

I just happen to be taking this exploratory journey right now. Mucking about ( tweaking) inside active components and their power supplies will have to wait for another year.

regards <> Earl K

Earl K
10-14-2003, 06:32 PM
Hi - I'm out of the loop for a week .

- I must articulate my feelings about charge-coupling. "Don't listen without it" would be only a slight overstatement. The benifits are just too great to worry about quadrupling the cost of your investment in capacitance. Of course, I have a lot of capacitors - and they were all bought ( mostly )on the cheap .

- Last week , over the period of about 2 days, I listened to my system with just the charge coupling on the left channel . It was quite enthralling to listen to "sonic fog" dissipate like a morning mist as the caps charged up .

- I had also just swapped CD players - subbing in a Sony pro unit instead of an older Denon home unit. Briefily, the Denon has a sound that's similar to how a Bessel filter acts ( great transients at the expense of some power transfer or "body" ) while the Sony is all about power transfer without the transient speed ( still very smooth though ). After the swap was made it was apparent that I was listening to more distortion ( this message was delivered by a certain "agitation " factor coming from the Sony ) . Both of these decks are sub $1000.00 pieces . The sub in was followed by "once again" charge coupling just the left channel ( 2441 ) DC blocking caps & its' RC network .

- In fact , my 2441/40 has traditionally been a slightly more peaky driver than the 2450SL diaphragmed 2440. Once the charging was complete I thought the once smoother 2450Sl had now been replaced by a 2445. The difference was that stark & dramatic .

- Both sides are now "C-C"ed, & certain combination of caps are in place . I've essentially throttled these huge drivers back to my best emulation of a soft-domed tweeter ( but with more clarity ). Not exactly the type of thing to brag about over at the "AA" "HE" forum - but still intriguing to realize that caps can do this .

I'll have to add more to this "testimonial" next week when I get a break .

:smthsail: <> Earl K

4313B
10-14-2003, 06:43 PM
"I must articulate my feelings about charge-coupling. "Don't listen without it" would be only a slight overstatement. The benifits are just too great to worry about quadrupling the cost of your investment in capacitance. Of course, I have a lot of capacitors - and they were all bought ( mostly ) on the cheap.

Agreed.

Robh3606
10-14-2003, 07:11 PM
"Both sides are now "C-C"ed, & certain combination of caps are in place . I've essentially throttled these huge drivers back to my best emulation of a soft-domed tweeter ( but with more clarity ). Not exactly the type of thing to brag about over at the "AA" "HE" forum - but still intriguing to realize that caps can do this . "

Hello Earl

Yeah it sure is sweet. I just want to try some polystyrene to add to the mix.

Thanks Giskard for that link you posted!

You know that seems to me to be just the place lots of those guys have minimal 1 st order crossovers so implimentation would be cheap to say the least. Certainly can't hurt.

Rob:)

B&KMan
04-25-2005, 09:22 PM
"I have tried some VERY expensive caps that I always found to be TOO bright and forward sounding with JBL and Altec horns!"

Yeah, it's a balancing act to be sure. The polystyrenes should take off some of that brightness and forwardness associated with metallized polypropylenes while adding depth and transparency.

G.T. has said on numerous occasions to use the best polypropylene capacitors one can buy and then just charge couple them. That is the most expensive solution.

I'm pretty much done with funding dielectric research myself ;) post # 6


Hi again Giskard and all.

After read many thread in this question of caps selection in regards of Dc Charge , I little confuse... :blink:

well, if money is not a restriction , what is the best mounting caps type in according on DC charge schematic. Polypropelene , paper film and foil, combo ???

thanks for your expose your high level experience in that.... :)


Jean.

Robh3606
04-25-2005, 09:36 PM
"After read many thread in this questoon of caps selection in regards of Dc Charge , I little confuse... http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/blink.gif

well, if money is not a restriction , what is the best mounting caps type in according on DC charge schematic. Polypropelene , paper film and foil, combo ???

thanks for your expose your high level experience in that.... http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif"

Try and see what you like best with your drivers. I use mylar with polypropylene bypass Charge Coupled. Sounds fine in my application, compensation for the 2344 horn. Opinions may differ only yours matters.

Rob:)

B&KMan
04-28-2005, 01:16 AM
Try and see what you like best with your drivers. I use mylar with polypropylene bypass Charge Coupled. Sounds fine in my application, compensation for the 2344 horn. Opinions may differ only yours matters.

Rob:)

hi and thanks,

The mylar is more soft or more hard in compare polypropylene ???

the polypropylene is film and foil or other type ???

:)

Jean.

Ian Mackenzie
04-28-2005, 02:07 AM
the polypropylene is film and foil or other type ???

Within this category are many options, metalised film, film /foil., oil with film and foil, tin foil, aluminium or coppor foil.

Some of the better capacitors used self cancelling windings for low inductance, and specific winding tension to contol vibrations.

While charge coupling may be beneficial where large values dictate use of medium grade material, I have seldum seen charge coulping in Audio Research pre or power amps using hi quaklity film/foil capacitors.

Ian

B&KMan
04-28-2005, 08:47 AM
the polypropylene is film and foil or other type ???

Within this category are many options, metalised film, film /foil., oil with film and foil, tin foil, aluminium or coppor foil.

Some of the better capacitors used self cancelling windings for low inductance, and specific winding tension to contol vibrations.

While charge coupling may be beneficial where large values dictate use of medium grade material, I have seldum seen charge coulping in Audio Research pre or power amps using hi quaklity film/foil capacitors.

Ian


Thanks Ian,

mmmmmmmmmm you touch a sensible point in my point... any aspect of parts is a science and the degree of serious is the degree of the finest to come out....

I remark in my instrumental material the big caps is not cheap...
What is your result in after burn-in the auricaps ???

I have a biais for Jensen caps...

Earl K
04-30-2005, 07:31 AM
Hmmmm,,

- Just wondering outloud .

- Perhaps this thread is best relocated somewhere else .

- This entire topic of capacitor type ( & brand ) along with their different sounds is IMO "all opinion" and best located where the forum actually infers that the topic is opinion based .

- Thoughts ???

:cheers:

Ian Mackenzie
04-30-2005, 05:15 PM
The first post was a technical question, perhap all the opinions should be deleted in that case, or move it to another thread about this particular network.



Ian

Earl K
04-30-2005, 06:18 PM
:rotfl: :banana: :rotfl:

The first post was a technical question,,,,,

perhap all the opinions should be deleted in that case,,,,

- Heh, Good One Ian , :applaud:

- We've all helped LPD soooo much with his initial question that he totally gave up on capacitors & compression drivers and bought 250Tis.
:crying: :eek: :crying:

- Now he's one of them ! :thmbsup: :bouncy: :applaud:

scott fitlin
04-30-2005, 06:30 PM
Hmmmm,,

- Just wondering outloud .

- Perhaps this thread is best relocated somewhere else .

- This entire topic of capacitor type ( & brand ) along with their different sounds is IMO "all opinion" and best located where the forum actually infers that the topic is opinion based .

- Thoughts ???

:cheers:Do WE absolutely HAVE to do this again?

:dont-know

:rotfl:

alskinner
04-30-2005, 06:47 PM
I certainly agree in keeping technical and scientific conclusions in the Technical Help forum, but what I have noticed is trying to delete oppinion from the thread at times leaves it butchered with no continutity from one post to the other. I guess the best thing to do would be to move the whole post to one section or the other. I know it is difficult to keep the different sections on track but to edit out oppinion from fact may cause more problems than it fixes.

Just my .02 worth

Regards
AL

B&KMan
04-30-2005, 07:28 PM
The first post was a technical question, perhap all the opinions should be deleted in that case, or move it to another thread about this particular network.

Ian

I' mnot a specialized but each response to technical question expose a background technical and many sub-question....

Because this is not a JBL pro site and this is "forum"; it is normal to expose technical hint, tip, theorical aspect and point of view regard of any aspect of question...


For my part I consider many many replys to technic and the opinion in background is necessary for expose a good comprehension of answer...
in this case it is realy interesting to discover the level of finest reply and I'm consider this is a extra-juice to build the high level credibility....

personnally, The type caps and the reactance in sound, the type of circuit is help me for my technical comprehension of my new crossover """ JBL """" ...

But I'm not a moderator....


Jean.



:D

Zilch
04-30-2005, 07:41 PM
As a technical expert witness, I get paid big bucks for expressing my opinions in court.

The distinction is, in large part, semantic.

The question of which kinda capacitor is best to use under what circumstances is a technical question.

The answers are opinions based upon technical expertise, of course. :D

Check yer Webster's. We're talkin' techniques of applied science here. Mileage varies.

[Well, MINE does, anyway.... :p ]

Ian Mackenzie
04-30-2005, 07:44 PM
Because this is not a JBL pro site and this is "forum"; it is normal to expose technical hint, tip, theorical aspect and point of view regard of any aspect of question...


For my part I consider many many replys to technic and the opinion in background is necessary for expose a good comprehension of answer...
in this case it is realy interesting to discover the level of finest reply and I'm consider this is a extra-juice to build the high level credibility....

personnally, The type caps and the reactance in sound, the type of circuit is help me for my technical comprehension of my new crossover """ JBL """" ...





:D

Absolutely...quote of the week.

Earl K
05-01-2005, 05:55 AM
Okay then, ;)

I was just checking the water . :D

Poor Scott ! :rotfl:

B&KMan
05-01-2005, 10:15 AM
Absolutely...quote of the week.


:dancin: :banana: :dancin: :banana: :dancin:



N.B. Sorry for this explosion of my emotion in this "" technical "" thread

:cheers:


:D
Jean

Ian Mackenzie
05-10-2005, 10:46 AM
Just to add a wee bit of flavour to all th echat about upgrades to the JBL stock crossovers I am currently previewing the Auricaps which will be installed in an external crossover as part of a 4343 upgrade thread to be published in the next few weeks.

To date I have been using polypropolyne metalised film foil (medium quality/price) bypassed with 0.01uf polystrene capacitors in the equivalent 3145 JBL 4345 monitor system at home.(formerly I was using Hovlands now with Robert in N.Y U.S.A in his pet JBL 4344's..(master JBL DIY Guru and a very nice fellow).

I was reasonably happy with the performance of this budget capacitor combination and figured it was similar to that tonally of the original vintage 4345 owned by Bo I heard last May while in CA.

Not surpisingly the Auricaps are different, I have only been running them for an hour.

Some subjective observations;

A subtle but non the less obvious effect is a significant reduction in background haze. On closer listening to the Auricaps I can confirm the previously installed bypased combination has a sea shell ghosting effect around the upper mids and highs. This symptom shows up as a wash on the horn and a sibilance on the slot. (no kidding..I am not being paid to say this at 3.00 am!)

Running the Auricaps there is an apparent loss of glare / brightness but an increase in detail and fine focus. The presentation is noticably more exact but musical without the etched quality of the other capacitors. On writing this short report in my Lab I can actually hear the improvement in fidelity on the system in an adjacent room.

Tonally its early days, but I think these capacitors are very neutral, perhaps more so than the Hovlands which while excellent on rendering micro ambience can sound a touch sweet.

Incidentally Auricaps application notes recommend NOT bypassing their capacitors.

Anyway, we will have a look at this in more detail in the practical guide to upgrading your 4343 shortly. This will not be a theoretical discussion but a thorough and comprehensive coverage of all facets to bringing your JBL's into the new millennium.

So for those who are keen to considering upgrading their 4343 crossovers or drivers to 4344 specs and are prepared to spend some bucks....YOU will not be disappointed!


Ian Mackenzie

Review equipment
JBL 4345 clones
Passlabs Aleph 60
Passlabs BOSOZ Su-X Preamp
Pioneer 626 DVD Player
Passlabs Pearl Phono Stage
Kenwood KD650 TT FR 12 arm
FR MC 44 pickup

4313B
05-10-2005, 10:54 AM
"Anyway, we will have a look at this in more detail in the practical guide to upgrading your 4343 shortly. This will not be a theoretical discussion but a thorough and comprehensive coverage of all facets to bringing your JBL's into the new millennium. So for those who are keen to considering upgrading their 4343 crossovers or drivers to 4344 specs and are prepared to spend some bucks....YOU will not be disappointed!"

Ah! Well lets definitely try some Sonicaps too. Shoot an email to Jeff and see what he thinks. Sonic Craft (http://www.soniccraft.com/)

Ian Mackenzie
05-10-2005, 11:03 AM
Yep for sure. bring em on

AsI think I mentioned to you I chose these caps as they were handled by a local agent and got the heads up from some ears I trust.

There is no caveat on capacitors.......just listen and spend wisely.

Ian

Mr. Widget
05-10-2005, 11:23 AM
A subtle but non the less obvious effect is a significant reduction in background haze. On closer listening to the Auricaps I can confirm the previously installed bypased combination has a sea shell ghosting effect around the upper mids and highs. This symptom shows up as a wash on the horn and a sibilance on the slot. (no kidding..I am not being paid to say this at 3.00 am!)

Background haze and sea shell ghosting? Thank God I've never had those problems.... I don't care if the silver plated, platinum foil, Dalai Lama blessed caps do remove it. I'd be freaked out if there were sea ghosts coming out of my speakers at 3:00 AM.

Widget

Ian Mackenzie
05-10-2005, 11:37 AM
Oh really so is this the rubble or a cavalry arriving?

When was the last time you had yor ears waxed..LOL

I'm out of here.:D

:snore: :snore: :moon: Fart :snore: :snore: :snore:

Ian

B&KMan
05-10-2005, 05:10 PM
I have only been running them for an hour.

The presentation is noticably more exact but musical without the etched quality of the other capacitors.



Wel Thanks very well Ian for this hint...

1--- it is shure the caps is not produce finest harmony after 1 hour run....

2--- what nature material of auricaps alu, tin, copper, ... ???

3--- the lead is appear is multilead cable yes or no...

4--- Do yo have a spectrum for expose response before and after ????


5---- Thanks for all " I " appeciate time and effort to exchange info.


Jean


:applaud:

Tom Loizeaux
05-10-2005, 06:15 PM
[QUOTE=Ian Mackenzie]
Just to add a wee bit of flavour to all th echat about upgrades to the JBL stock crossovers I am currently previewing the Auricaps which will be installed in an external crossover as part of a 4343 upgrade thread to be published in the next few weeks...
Anyway, we will have a look at this in more detail in the practical guide to upgrading your 4343 shortly. This will not be a theoretical discussion but a thorough and comprehensive coverage of all facets to bringing your JBL's into the new millennium.


I will be looking forward to your conclusions!
I'm very willing to improve my 4343s with better caps - rather then re-building the entire crossover!
I've changed most of the caps to medium grade ones and added bypass caps and think my 4343s sound great! ... but I'm interested in your findings!

Thanks Ian!

Tom

Robh3606
05-10-2005, 06:26 PM
"Just to add a wee bit of flavour to all th echat about upgrades to the JBL stock crossovers I am currently previewing the Auricaps which will be installed in an external crossover as part of a 4343 upgrade thread to be published in the next few weeks...
Anyway, we will have a look at this in more detail in the practical guide to upgrading your 4343 shortly. This will not be a theoretical discussion but a thorough and comprehensive coverage of all facets to bringing your JBL's into the new millennium. "




I am curious about this too!! I have the Hovlands crossovers and they are excellent. If they can be improved upon I will certainly be impressed!!! You taking the biamp switches out and going to Jumper/Buss bars like the L250 crossovers??? Put them on the back where they are easilly accessable and can be cleaned regularly.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
05-10-2005, 06:28 PM
Hi all,

awake.

Jean

They will most probably improve with time although I suspect they have previously been tests.

I am not sure of the exact design of thr Auricap, its is most likely proprietry information held by the manufacture.

I run some sweeps of the crossover when time permits.


Tom,

Yeah well lets see how this plays out.

The Thread will detail several levels of upgrade and some other options, such as those terminations, cables and switches we all love to play with.

One things for sure, while non of this is an exact science good engineering practises are very important and scientific analysis is interesting but the ears are the final arbitrator.

For example, I can change the Fet input pair of the Aleph to another derivative or different manufacurer and it will sound different, and yet under the microscope it measures the same.

Ian

Mr. Widget
05-10-2005, 09:41 PM
Incidentally Auricaps application notes recommend NOT bypassing their capacitors.

Aren't they an internally bypassed design... or am I confusing them with one of the other audiophile caps?

Widget

Earl K
05-10-2005, 09:57 PM
Aren't they an internally bypassed design... or am I confusing them with one of the other audiophile caps?

- I believe you are thinking of R.E.s' "MultiCaps" / which as the name suggests are built by paralleling multiples of similar capacitance , wired/connected with common electrodes .


:)

Mr. Widget
05-10-2005, 10:02 PM
Yeah... that's the one. I guess they may be too though?

Widget

Earl K
05-10-2005, 10:11 PM
Yeah... that's the one. I guess they may be too though?
Hmmmm, Apparently I've lost my ability to comprehend english . Must be sleep-deprivation :)

Oh Well :D

Ian Mackenzie
05-10-2005, 11:46 PM
I will send an email and find out.

I just called the local agent and they don't think they are internally bypassed.

Here are the application notes.


************************************************** **
Capacitor Bypassing

Do not use bypass capacitors in the signal path. A single capacitor for DC blocking / AC coupling creates a simple path with one time constant. The signal quality will be compromised if a bypass or multiple bypass capacitors are added to a signal path capacitor. Bypass capacitors were used in the past to bypass low quality film capacitors or electrolytic capacitors. The bypass was the lesser of two evils. With the advent of better quality film capacitors the need for a bypass capacitor was eliminated. Bypass capacitors create multiple signal paths with multiple time constants. These time constants are very short but they can still be heard as a smear or overall loss of focus.

Always bypass power supply capacitors. This maintains a low source impedance to the power supply over a wide bandwidth. If budget and space permit it is good to use multiple value power supply bypass capacitors with the smallest value being installed directly at the active device. (Valve or transistor.)

************************************************** ***
The other point is you could go further with something like Film & Oil Mundorf Sumpreme, but they are about 4x times the price and this all has to put into perspective with the type of drivers, their vintage and other equipment in the signal path.

Incidentially I also tried mylar bypassed with 0.01 polystyrene. They sounded thick and cloudy and lack fine resolving power. Definately mid hifi by comparision. However I have not had a chance to charge couple them yet.

As I mentioned above the plan is to look a number of upgrade options incl driver updates, cables, terminations and cabinet improvements.

I very much doubt if just focusing on capacitors will yield the best over result as it is proven by a respect amplifier manufacturer that terminations are a determining factor in sound quality. So all these things tend to work together to provide real improvement.

Ian



ian

Mr. Widget
05-11-2005, 12:50 AM
Hmmmm, Apparently I've lost my ability to comprehend english . Must be sleep-deprivation :)

Oh Well :D
"they" being a personal pronoun referring to the Auricap of Ian's post.

As in the example: Perhaps the Auricap is also an internally bypassed design.:)

But, then according to Ian's post it apparently isn't bypassed. Ian, what type of film is the Auricap?

Widget

Zilch
05-11-2005, 01:24 AM
"I guess they may be too, though." :p

Mr. Widget
05-11-2005, 01:32 AM
"I guess they may be too, though." :p
Hey don't make fun of the ESL... damn, can't really use that excuse.:banghead:

I think we have derailed this thread enough... let's get back to talking about the ethereal sounds of capacitors.:D

Widget

Ian Mackenzie
05-11-2005, 08:56 AM
Hi,

I have emailed Audience to request details of the Auricaps so lets see what they have to say.

Ian

Earl K
05-11-2005, 09:07 AM
Click Here (http://ldsg.snippets.org/appdx-ec.php3#AURICAP) for a little bit of info on AuriCaps .

- It'll be interesting to see just what the official reply is / since I've heard the company likes to downplay the "metallization" approach to their particular, purpose-built , brand of caps .

:cheers:

Ian Mackenzie
05-11-2005, 09:12 AM
Background haze and sea shell ghosting? Thank God I've never had those problems.... I don't care if the silver plated, platinum foil, Dalai Lama blessed caps do remove it. I'd be freaked out if there were sea ghosts coming out of my speakers at 3:00 AM.

Widget

Oh look how would you know....how would you know...Lolololol.!

Here is the offending culprit, the much loved and hated JBL exponential horn and slant plate lense.

Actually John Fairhurst was the first member to sight the sea shell effect using this horn lense combination...he ended up carving a unique 2344 bi radial from laminated wood.

But the better capacitors make a difference and I recall this with the previously used Hovlands so I figure this is more than coincidence

In view of this I would have to say that all things being equal it could be argued that this horn lense combination is in some ways a more accurate device than other devices where such effects are less obvious.

Bring on the skeptics .......I suppose though if you have your head suck under water what does it matter...now who's quote is that?:barf:

I think this is where opinion becomes fact.

Ian

JBL blue C/ Bo!

Ian Mackenzie
05-13-2005, 10:20 AM
Well another late night of listening down here.

I now have the entire crossover on a test bed.

Although I have not yet had an opoortunity to do any measurement the virtues of the Auricap are becoming more obvious..they are excellent and the equal of the best I've heard.

Apparently Audience have making capacitors since 1983.

Here is an extract of a report to Audience from someone I know...this guy has a $100k system and the ears you go with it, he's also a professional musician.

''Although I have not tried every coupling cap there is, I am confident in saying the Auricap is the best I have tried by a long, long way, and I will be trying more Auricaps in my speaker and amplifier projects in due course. The fact that they are so reasonably priced (in the world of ridiculously priced esoteric caps) makes the choice all the more easier. Richard said to me, “There is no single reason why the Auricaps sound so good. We have been making premium audio capacitors since 1983. The Auricap is the result of many refinements over the years and attention to detail.” All I can say is “Here, here”. Try them, you will not regret it. "
Cheers, Kendrick Pavey ( kpavey@ford.com )

gerard
05-14-2005, 10:33 AM
Hello

Well i am a real novice because I keep my xover caps for 30 years on my 43xx clone and that Xover was not original .

When I wanted to upgrade it , I understood it would be much more difficult than cooking " rabbit with mustard " a french dish !!!

So I just change the caps .

A firiends of mine who knows a lot about hifi told me I would better change the caps for Hf and Uhf . i did it usiing also bypass caps . The result was very good with dayton caps and audiocap as by pass , better stereo and dynamic much better wiht many instruments really good .

I let 2 56uf caps for bass and low medium and decide to change them with Solen even if my firends told me there will not be so much change .

What happen is I DISCOVER BACK MY 43XX ... THE BRASS WHERE REALLY BRASS , everything was much better , firmer only in changing those 2 - 56uf caps .

MORE THAN THIS , My left LE15A was going like to be reconed I believe , same sound as a sepaker who needs that ....
When I change my caps for bass and low medium everything WAS OK , no more problem .

oK Experienced Jbl fans might laugh but I never saw on this forum such advise or problem for changing old caps !!!.

I know 30 years is a lot but if some newcomers can take this experience they can think about it ....

gerard

B&KMan
05-14-2005, 12:50 PM
When I change my caps for bass and low medium everything WAS OK , no more problem .

gerard

HI and thanks for trade experience,


---- what exact type of caps you put ???

---- Do you have same position in L-Pad ???:


---- you have more bass and med power sound ???

Thanks...


Jean...

N"B" Actually I forum with 3 doctors engeneers electrical for understand and fixe the mystic of bypass and size of lead & wire and the dilacate question of nature of caps modiying the signature sound....

Crazy or not Crazy this is a fan question... :D

gerard
05-14-2005, 02:10 PM
B&kMan

I change the caps for solen 56 uf.

There is no Lpad on Bass only on Low medium and I did not change the Lpad position !.

the bass where just firmly a lot and the 800 hz ( I believe ) on Low medium is much better , very important on brass as I said .

I believe my old caps where dead !

Gerard

B&KMan
05-15-2005, 09:58 AM
B&kMan
the bass where just firmly a lot and the 800 hz ( I believe ) on Low medium is much better , very important on brass as I said .

I believe my old caps where dead !

Gerard

Hi again Gerard,

Thanks for post comment...

Complementary question...

--- The low frequency is more snap ???
--- The infrasound is more punch ???

---- the sound is look little thin or just more power on low frequency...

--- Because many person have claim of solen because is sound metal... so of course if you listen metal instrument it is particulary true but if you listem other style , contreBasse, cello, or bass drum, the sound it is " metal" ???


--- Cristian of Solen is explain to me the polyster (mylar) caps is relativemly stable in time but it is absolutely shure the caps of electrolytic is completely scrap after 10-15 years... so imagine after 30 years... You right , the caps is not dead but it is completely underspec...
:D

Jean.

gerard
05-15-2005, 10:55 AM
ok B&K

Don't get the word snap ( say it in french ? )
No real more infra sound , just more low medium

Not a question of power but question of reproduction of sound the tenor sax is mor real , trumpet is like a trumpet .

No metal , voice is ok.

of course I did not compare with other caps and will certainly not .

No time for it ...

But ... Who knows that after 15 years you should change the caps ... ???

Gerard

B&KMan
05-15-2005, 12:15 PM
ok B&K

But ... Who knows that after 15 years you should change the caps ... ???

Gerard

THANKS AGAIN :)

Yeas my english is poor :( (sorry)


You know, all diaghram is out of spec after 15 years, oxidation un centered, fatigue material created too distortion...

I according to Giskards and many other senior member, the professionnal change regulary parts for maintains spec... Of course, all play but....

I'M just few time to personnal introduction in electronics questions and I realize my error to maintain the original crossover for question of integrity... the network , after analysing, have many big problem conception and time degradation... So This entire forum is help to open my eye in other parameters ... And I recognize this... many head is better than one :D

Ex: Dc charge, zener circuit impedance stabilization, error, in lineary elecetric versus real poduce sound pressure expose the 3145 is real better (especially after introduce Dc chage by Giskards) than 3143...

30 years evolution and innovation is not only a fashion derivation...

So, YES If I restart, I chage caps regulary... in all passsif and active electronics device...

:bouncy:

Tom Loizeaux
05-16-2005, 08:09 PM
[QUOTE=Ian Mackenzie]
...Although I have not yet had an opoortunity to do any measurement the virtues of the Auricap are becoming more obvious..they are excellent and the equal of the best I've heard.

Ian, your intrest in Auricap has me interested as well. When I looked up Auricaps in the Antique Electronic catalogue, I see that they only carry them up to 1.5uf @ 450 vdc.
If I were to replace the main caps in my 4343s, starting with the 2420 circuit, I'd need values like 13.5uf, 4uf, as well as the 1. and 1.5ufs. Does Auricap make these larger values? What are the prices on these larger ones?

Tom

Mr. Widget
05-16-2005, 11:00 PM
Tom,

Here is a very good selection. At the bottom of the page you can click on the brand of caps you are interested in. For crazy expensive, take a look at the silver foil Audio Notes... 1uF for $481.75!!!

http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/CapacitorsFilm.html

Widget

Ian Mackenzie
05-16-2005, 11:39 PM
[QUOTE=Ian Mackenzie]
...Although I have not yet had an opoortunity to do any measurement the virtues of the Auricap are becoming more obvious..they are excellent and the equal of the best I've heard.

Ian, your intrest in Auricap has me interested as well. When I looked up Auricaps in the Antique Electronic catalogue, I see that they only carry them up to 1.5uf @ 450 vdc.
If I were to replace the main caps in my 4343s, starting with the 2420 circuit, I'd need values like 13.5uf, 4uf, as well as the 1. and 1.5ufs. Does Auricap make these larger values? What are the prices on these larger ones?

Tom

Tom,

They make 200 and 400 volt in a wide range of values. 200 volt should be more than adequate however. (A 200 watt amp has a peak voltage output of 80 volts)

Ian

400 volt are really for valve amp applications

4313B
05-17-2005, 04:06 AM
Michael Percy thinks the Dynamicaps are the bomb too.
http://www.percyaudio.com/
I've never tried them.
I notice Parts Connexion has a tab for them.

Ian Mackenzie
06-01-2007, 07:49 AM
Well this has been too quiet for too long.

Over the long JBL weekend (Monday is a JBL Holiday) I will post the most recent experiements in what I will refer to as the Millennuim capacitor upgrade.

Ian

X_X
06-01-2007, 08:00 AM
Well this has been too quiet for too long.

Over the long JBL weekend (Monday is a JBL Holiday) I will post the most recent experiements in what I will refer to as the Millennuim capacitor upgrade.

Ian


Hi Ian,

I'm curious if you have ever experimented with Multicaps. EveAnna at Manley suggested I try some. David bought a huge supply of them years ago and they used them ever since in ALL of their amps and preamps. I recently gave them a try in one of my preamps and I favored them over both Dynamicaps and Auricaps (at least in that application). I have yet to try them in a passive crossver, though.

Nate.

4313B
06-01-2007, 08:14 AM
Well this has been too quiet for too long.<groan>

Maybe in fifty more years it will have been quiet for too long but it's only been two years. :(

Ian Mackenzie
06-01-2007, 08:18 AM
EveAnna,

Do tell. I used them years ago. I hope they have improved since.

It depends a lot on the application and the overall voicing of the particular loudspeaker drivers and the system as a whole. By this I mean your amps and source are also part of the equation. Not something that you will see on voltage drivers or typical loudspeaker response curves.

There is no one right solution only that some work better than others in certain instances.

The trick is to find something that builds on the complementry aspects of a particular loudspeaker system without everthing else going to hell. Unfortunately the baby tends to get thrown out with the bath water with some engineers.

Wedding it out and making sense of it all is the fun part.

Basically what we have done is assess over an extended period of time the JBL stock crossover capacitors of a vintage JBL network and then applied in situ other crossover capacitor parts under controlled conditions.

By an extended period of time I am not talking about building up a vintage monitor and playing a few tunes over a week or so. We are talking months of evaluations and long term experience with a known monitor(s) used in the assessment process.

These controlled conditions are of course relative to the test environment and the user would need to take into account other considerations such as their room acoustics and equipment preferences.

None the less there are clearly identified tends or should I say traits.

Some people would say in the end its a personal preference thing.

However I draw a line where obvious component (part) colorations are evident when one is aware of what a known recording of a particular instrument / human voice actually sounds like.

Sadly many consumer users do not know what is natural or real sounding and they are at the mercy of marketing department or bean counter preferences in a final product offering as they do not have the means or resources to hear and see the differences.

In the end the user then becomes educated around long term exposure to a particular component parts and ultimately system coloration which they take as being correct.

This is complicated by the fact that in many instances inherant component colorations actually compensate for each other in an additive and subtractive manner. Some of these component colorations are enjoyable to the ear while others are irritating.

Perhaps this is why there are so many offering of audio nirvana for those special and often expensive parts.

Over the next few weeks I will talk about some of the explorations of crossover capacitors we have done and other related but important issues.

Ian Mackenzie
06-02-2007, 02:24 PM
I am having a number of server issues (my end) following re installation of software. Luckily I backed up to a Mybook external 250GB drive last night.

However, Looking back here is an interesting links (and readings) recently re posted by Heather that play out the broader considerations mentioned in the later part of the previous post.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=171518&postcount=5
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=171570&postcount=6

There certainly has been a lot of great work done by some of our more active members since then.

Moving forward perhaps the more interesting issue is what happens to your perceptual threshold of "capacitor colorations" when the issue of the room and inherent flaws in the loudspeaker are minimised or eliminationed?

Earl K
06-06-2007, 07:48 AM
Well this has been too quiet for too long.

- Over the long JBL weekend (Monday is a JBL Holiday) I will post the most recent experiements in what I will refer to as the Millennuim capacitor upgrade.

- Moving forward perhaps the more interesting issue is what happens to your perceptual threshold of "capacitor colorations" when the issue of the room and inherent flaws in the loudspeaker are minimised or eliminationed?

- However I draw a line where obvious component (part) colorations are evident when one is aware of what a known recording of a particular instrument / human voice actually sounds like.

- The trick is to find something that builds on the complementry aspects of a particular loudspeaker system without everthing else going to hell. Unfortunately the baby tends to get thrown out with the bath water with some engineers.


- This is complicated by the fact that in many instances inherant component colorations actually compensate for each other in an additive and subtractive manner. Some of these component colorations are enjoyable to the ear while others are irritating.

- Perhaps this is why there are so many offering of audio nirvana for those special and often expensive parts.

- I am having a number of server issues (my end) following re installation of software. Luckily I backed up to a Mybook external 250GB drive last night.


Ian

Still having computer issues ? / I was looking forward to hearing your latest musings on this topic .

< Earl

X_X
06-06-2007, 02:19 PM
EveAnna,


I used them years ago. I hope they have improved since.

There is no one right solution...

However I draw a line where obvious component (part) colorations are evident when one is aware of what a known recording of a particular instrument / human voice actually sounds like.

Sadly many consumer users do not know what is natural or real sounding...



What a heap!

Hey Susan,

I find it fascinating how one could be so audacious as to suggest that if someone is enjoying a particular component (or capacitor) that doesn't meet your personal tastes- it is because they don't know any better. What's worse- they don't even know what is supposed to sound good. Worse still- they don't know what a human voice sounds like. Mind you, these are humans we are talking about- humans that speak and listen to other humans every day!!

I'm curious to know what experience you have with musical instruments, live sound, or recording studios to make such a presumptuous statement.

I liked what Multicaps did in a pre. Could it be that it mated with my system better? Could it be that I hear better than you? Who knows? Simply put-I prefer them in that application. My system, my music, my taste. So, tell me I'm "wrong" or insult me and others by saying I/we don't know any better, or that I/we don't know how things are supposed to sound.

I am a trained musician- active in the studio for 12 years- I know how instruments are supposed to sound. Furthermore- I know how they are recorded, mixed, and mastered. I know the effect this has on the final product. Do you? I bet there are MANY others here that have the same background- maybe even more experience than I do.

One last thing- I liked the Giskard designed charge-coupled Solens over the passive Claritycaps you suggested. Again, my tastes.

The next time you want to put some cowardly, passive aggressive words out there by calling me a girl name- leave me a PM with your address.

Nate.

Earl K
06-06-2007, 02:57 PM
One last thing- I liked the Giskard designed charge-coupled Solens over the passive Claritycaps you suggested. Again, my tastes.

- I haven't yet tried the ClarityCaps / though I intend to / seemingly , the longer I wait - the more the Cdn dollar appreciates in value against the US Greenback .

- I'm still very hot on dc biasing ( after 3.5 years ) / which means the Claritys' must be tested under bias .

- I've run biased Solens' in the HF bypass circuit for my Altec 288s since Xmas .
- I like them just fine and have really came to appreciate their somewhat "clear clarion call" . I still bypass the Solens' with F&F polypropylenes as well as F&F polystyrenes because for me , it's alot like curling ,, ie; trying to sweep those last bits of UHF into the circle .
- I just took the Solens out to start listening to some MPP type caps called "UltraCap". I bought a bunch a couple of years ago ( and then promptly ignored them for some reason ) .

:)

X_X
06-06-2007, 03:20 PM
:baby:
- I haven't yet tried the ClarityCaps / though I intend to / seemingly , the longer I wait - the more the Cdn dollar appreciates in value against the US Greenback .

I certainly like them. Personally, I think they are very good for my system and music. I also think they are priced well considering what they do. I am trying to put together a biased Claritycap network now. It might be a mixture of Solens and Clarity for economy. I think it might be better still.


- I'm still very hot on dc biasing ( after 3.5 years ) / which means the Claritys' must be tested under bias .

Definately.



- I've run biased Solens' in the HF bypass circuit for my Altec 288s since Xmas .
- I like them just fine and have really came to appreciate their somewhat "clear clarion call" .


Agreed.

In my system, they come off with a lighter-than-air quality in the HF/UHF. This may not be favoured by all who try it, but I really like it. If a person values the leading edge of a note and its decay- he/she will likely appreciate biased Solens. (Again, this is in my system YMMV).

The Claritycaps were hard to isolate because I have only heard them in a 3145 network. I have played around with Solens for some time in various places and once they become biased- they really come to life! Comparing the two in passive form- I think the Claritycaps have a bit more "slam" and weight, but by comparison to the biased Solens, they sounded slightly muddied up. This could be because I am comparing a CC network to a passive. This may be the very qualities of the design rather than the capacitor. I imagine a biased Claritycap might be the best of both worlds. These are my opinions, anyway.

If and when I get the active network up and running (DEQX), I plan to run biased somethings on the UHF. I have a 3way unit to use with a 4way speaker. I believe Widget is running a similar rig.


I still bypass the Solens' with F&F polypropylenes as well as F&F polystyrenes because for me , it's alot like curling ,, ie; trying to sweep those last bits of UHF into the circle .
- I just took the Solens out to start listening to some MPP type caps called "UltraCap". I bought a bunch a couple of years ago ( and then promptly ignored them for some reason ) .

Interesting. I wouldn't imagine bypassing- especially in that portion, would have any audible effect. Now you have my curiosity. I must try that!

Ian Mackenzie
06-06-2007, 04:13 PM
Yes, major.

I am waiting for a new server.

Ian Mackenzie
06-07-2007, 01:09 PM
Sorry for the delay

There were some issues with the PC but its just too old (5 years) to spend money on to update it with more ram and other updates that I need to run particular programs. I should be up and running in 2-3 weeks.

Ian Mackenzie
06-08-2007, 02:41 PM
Clark has been through the entire process with the exception of the active crossover upgrade at this point.

He may wish to add some comments at this time until we have an opportunity to offer a complete documented account on the process elsewhere.

Ducatista47
06-09-2007, 11:21 PM
Ian has indeed been kind enough to upgrade my 3145 networks. He simpified the circuit by eliminating or bypassing the pieces rendered unnecessary by biamping. That and upgrading some parts of the conducting path reduced insertion losses significantly. The capacitors were then upgraded to Clarity cap SA's.

Since I had to be without them for a while, I had been listening through Stax headphones in the meantime. I was expecting the 4345's to be quite a step down from that, but the differences in quality were quite subtle. The improvement is really that great!

The detail, despite not yet being bypassed, was much finer and sharper than before. Imaging was better and the sound was just plain more natural. I was skeptical if bypassing would improve things much, but since the network was designed to operate that way, I pressed on.

I installed Auricap .01mf caps in all the bypass positions. The quality again leapt upward. Detail went through the roof, getting much more out of my SET amp and the wonderful transducers the 4345 holds. More, frankly, than I thought possible from these speakers I keep reading are out of date and obsolete. The imaging was much better still, and Patricia Barber's CD's sounded every bit as good as they did through the Stax. Better in some ways, actually. The combination of the superb balance of the system with the level of detail, and the naturalism of the voicing and the tone, is unreal.

I am especially impressed because the improvements make them much better 4345's, but still 4345's. If they had ended up sounding great but like something else, I would not be so happy with the results. All the strengths and great character of the monitors remain, but improved in every way.

Please don't dismiss these upgrades as a poor man's alternative to new networks, bypassed or not. I don't know if more money would yield better results, but the improvements gained in this way are spectacular. If your sources and electronics are up to the task, you will be amazed what the old 4345 can do for you.

The only downside is if your sources or amps are crap, you will hear the weakness right now. I switched out pieces to experiment and quickly found out what gear was up to it and what stuff was not. This system is now very, very revealing.

At some future date Ian and I may get around to documenting this step by step. Make no mistake, Ian is very good with this stuff, and frankly he did pretty much everything. And I am so grateful.

Clark

soundboy
06-10-2007, 12:56 AM
I use the SA series claritycap and the auricap bypasses in several systems, as well...partly due to Ian's suggestion on the auricap end. I experienced the exact same results....let them play a few days....and they sound even better...beautiful pics Ian.....and thanks for the posts on the subject...

Ian Mackenzie
06-10-2007, 02:52 AM
Just a note that the Auricaps were part of the Upgrade but for logistical reasons and to allow Clark to hear the differences they were installed last.

As part of our Capacitor selection decision process there was extensive consultation with Jeff at Sonic Craft to create a reference network. Jeff is regarded as one of the foremost in the field of loudspeaker crossover capacitor upgrades.

The reference network used in the evaluations was fitted a Mundorf Supreme Silver and Oil capacitors. Jeff regarded this the only worthwhile upgrade from the Clarity SA Capacitors (non bypassed) and previously used interations of Mylar, Mylar bypassed (+biased), Hovlands, Auricaps and Solen Fast caps (+biased) for the 4345 system.

During the development phase various capacitors (as mentioned above)were swapped out in situ within the stock 3145 network using high quality flying leads to verify the authenticity of the results.

It should be noted however that the outright results came from more than mere capacitors upgrades but from more than a dozen other proprietry modifications to the signal path of the 3145 stock network. These modifications required an extensive study of electrical charactertistics of the network, of the layout and signal routing which is quite complex.

Of course the best results regardless of the network can only be obtained with very careful setting up of this type of system.

If asked what is the difference.

The stock 3145 sounds safe but in comparison it sounds fluffy and plastic with an artificial quality compared to the modified network which gave the system significantly more clarity and a natural tonal contrast without sounding bright and unnatural like many other capacitors we evaluated.

Please note unless you have the resources, appropriate skills and experience I would recommend a re build of an equivalent network by a qualified technician rather than attempt to modify a stock 3145 network.

The decision to undertake this project was initially discussed in August/September 2006. In case you are wondering why upgrade a stock 3145 network I wanted to measure, study and audition the stock network and hence what other 4345 owners experience. Following that initial phase of the project we determined it was viable up upgrade the networks and make significant impovements to the subjective performance of this particular system.

I must say my involvement with Clark during the project has been a lot of fun and has resulted in a mutual friendship.

For those interested Clarity SA Cap and Auricap bypass modification is becoming a well regarded combination among those who are interested in the ultimate diy loudspeaker capacitor upgrade. The price / value ratio is indeed impressive.

It should be noted the Mundorf reference version of this network costs about 3-4 times to construct. There are noticably similarities in the subjective performance of both the reference and the Clarity SA/Auricaps network as mentioned by Clark.

Finally, and this applies to any tinkering or tweaking of your crossovers. Its all relative to the rest of your equipment.

If you have a mid level amp or pre power combo and use a Sony universal player please don't loose a winks sleep over any of this. If you are a home theatre amp user all of this is irrelevant. Hi end amp and source equipment users will need to assess what best works in their system and their room on an individual basis.

What I am saying here is the more elaborate the associated equipment the more sensitive it will be to a even to subtle changes. For example I was pleased with the stock networks using the Kenwood home theatre amplifier and I was impressed with the charge coupled Solen network using the SKA GB150 amp (designed by Greg Ball, an ex Mark Levinson designer). But only the Clarity/Auricap network and the reference network gave me true listening pleasure running the Passlabs X2.5 preamp X250.5 poweramp. The other iterations were unlistenable using the Pass labs combination.

I put this down to the sheer transparency of and musical quality this amp and this is the price you pay for quality.

A Pass Labs X2.5 preamp, X250.5 power amp and Lavry dac, JBL DX1 where used in a reference system. Other loudspeakers used in evaluations Magnaplaner 1.6 and Dynaudio reference monitors. Other amplifers used SKA B150, PSS600, SAE 50B and Kenwood Home threatre multichannel amplifier.

I have no association with Clarity caps or Sonic Craft and provide this information for members benefit without any desire for financial gain or kudos.

Hey Clark,

I wish I still had your networks plugged in down here.

My babies miss them 3145's!

best

Ian

Ps Sorry about the editing but unfortunately I am unable to load any programs due to a computor issue.

soundboy
06-10-2007, 03:48 PM
In my modified JBL BX63A (Blackgates, Schottky's, etc) I tried several high pass caps including Mundorf silver/oil, Hovland, Auricap, and Claritycap. This is just my take, using highly modified Adcom equipment (ala Musical Concepts 565 pre, 545 mains, 555 mono sub...), DIY Dynaudio 3 ways with claritycaps, 2245H sub.

The Hovlands were irritating and shifted the upper mids forward. Not a good, musical experience.

The silver oils had beautiful top end, clarity, detail, air....but slightly thinned out the mids. Noticeable enough to want something else, even after letting them break in for several weeks.

The Claritycaps were smooth, detailed, warm, balanced....but slightly rolled off the highest treble and air.

The Auricaps were the ticket. No loss of high end air compared to bypass, mids sound the same as bypass, great detail, can hardly tell any difference from bypass.

These were all .15uf values. At least with my set up, the auricaps were just perfect. Also beyond my budget to use 100% in a high level crossover...hence the use of claritycaps with auricap bypass...:D

MJC
06-10-2007, 04:15 PM
-
- I've run biased Solens' in the HF bypass circuit for my Altec 288s since Xmas .
- I like them just fine and have really came to appreciate their somewhat "clear clarion call" . I still bypass the Solens' with F&F polypropylenes as well as F&F polystyrenes because for me , it's alot like curling ,, ie; trying to sweep those last bits of UHF into the circle .
- I just took the Solens out to start listening to some MPP type caps called "UltraCap". I bought a bunch a couple of years ago ( and then promptly ignored them for some reason ) .

:)
I used the Solens in a biased xovers for my L212s, but I didn't by-pass them. Giskard had mentioned that GT had said by-passing Solens wasn't neccessary.
One thing I did do that opened up the highs was add spikes to the bases, something that didn't exist 30 years ago. I still don't know what company first started using spikes.
I find the Solen CC xovers to be very good, very musical and very clear.
The only time they didn't sound good was when I was using Monster XP speaker wire, for about a week. The XP made the highs sound harsh.
Some of the lps I've had for 30 years and more, I never knew how good they really are, until I built the CC networks.

Ian Mackenzie
06-10-2007, 04:43 PM
Thanks for you post.

Yes,

I built an Auricap crossover for a member previously, no complaints so far and I used them exclusively in a hi end active crossover, no complaints there either. The Auricap passive crossover is still quite expensive to make compared to the Clarity/Auricap bypassed network. They are a good all rounder with the right associated equipment.

Once you start specialising its a case by case thing and as mentioned earlier, depending on the associated equipment which can be additive or subtractive in colorations there will be a match somewhere. As an analogy its a bit like taking a photograph then processing it through Photoshop.

In my experience the problem more often than not which triggers attempting alternatives (capacitors and other things like cables) is the associated equipment and even anomalies with the loudspeaker. The associated equipment results in a series of compensation layers, like screens that filter and subtract or add certain properties to the original signal which incidentally may not be pure in the first place (the source).

At a more consumer level of mass market equipment what you end up with is so processed with strong traits of colouration that attempting different capacitors is just a variation of a pre existing condition. You might like it better and that may be the intent but in the overall scheme of things don't kid yourself its the best tweak of all time or that you are hearing a transparent reproduction of real music. Marketing guys love you to think that.

The intent here is to provide some sort of basic framework for rationalising and understanding what happens who you make a change.

Finally, I am not an elitist and I quite enjoy using vintage equipment and
home theatre.

Ian Mackenzie
06-10-2007, 04:51 PM
Hi MJC,

Nice post. There is a lot to be said for looking outside the square sometimes.

The L212 is one of my favourite JBL vintage consumer systems.

Ian

X_X
06-10-2007, 05:43 PM
Thanks to Widget for his suggestions- I am experiencing the best I have ever heard (in my own home).

Clark,

You might be delighted to know- the 4345's still sound like 4345's even with active electronics. Actives like the DEQX tighten it all up, time align everything, and bring the muscles of the 45's into the current sota. Room correction is an added bonus.

Nate.

X_X
06-10-2007, 09:19 PM
The DEQX has been around a while now.

I first alerted The Widget and others to the DEQX some years now in previous version of the forums.

Not only has the DEQX been around for a while now, so has the 4345. I can't speak of the early versions, but I certainly like the latest software.



However, I don't genuinely consider tampering in such a manner with a classic JBL design anything more than an other morph'd pseudo diy system.

Oh come on Ian! really?
You should quickly alert the others about this! I am stunned that so many people here are enjoying "morph'd pseudo diy systems" that you helped them build!!!



Glad it worked out for you though. G.T recommendations posted elsewhere more or less sum up the mods for the 4345.

I tried Greg's recommendations all the way- I still am. Why would he ever suggest going active on the 4345? I mean, let's see- he suggested biamping to isolate the 2245's because they don't respond well to passive components. Then he suggested powering the 2405 actively for the same reasons. Hmmm... that's an active 3 way isn’t it? Gee, that's what a DEQX is. Amazing...



I thought about that route too but considering all the drivers are 20+ year old designs and then there is that much dated horn, compression driver and UHF driver I could not see the "sense" in that kind of expenditure and complexity on anything other than the lastest JBL SOA drivers. For the same outlay I prefer to own and variety of "well" designed vintage and comtemporary loudspeaker systems.

Hey mate, because the drivers are 20+ years old makes it all the more reason to bring them into focus by going active. I wish you could hear this.

The 2245/2122 is the best thing about the 4345 IMO. You and I have talked a lot in PM’s about the horn and the 2405. Try a Raven R1 for the UHF- very nice. Let the 2405 plug the hole. I can’t get around the foghorn yet, but I’m thinking of a way. I might have a go at building a set of cabs to house only the 2245/2122 then have some fun.





Clark's upgrades by the way did not cost him hardly a dime.


He is such a humble nice guy and so passionate it would not have been right.



The price of the 4345 makes doing much else a strain on the budget. The DEQX wasn’t pocket change to me- it cost a lot by my standards. If changing out caps and bypassing makes a marked improvement, than how can anyone find fault with that? I can’t. After trying things one way- I try them a new way. I’m never settled on having it the same for too long. I feel compelled to make improvements…

Ian- Just curious, what value did you use for the ULF cap when you went full passive?

MJC
06-10-2007, 09:45 PM
After trying things one way- I try them a new way. I’m never settled on having it the same for too long. I feel compelled to make improvements…

At some point in time you get as high as you can with a particular system.
I can't imagine L212s sounding any better than using a CC network. Are there better speakers, sure there are.
My experience using a solen based CC network is pushing me to build CC networks for my PT800s, which are better than the L212...but there is something about playing vinyl thru CC L212s and vintage '70's amps.

Ducatista47
06-10-2007, 10:22 PM
I am sure the DEQX is a fine piece of gear, but even if it were free I would have no personal interest in it at this time.

I have put together gear that has a very detailed, delicate, natural output to the speakers/headphones. A minimalist analog path through outstanding gear has brought me to this point, and I have no intention of inserting an a/d - d/a piece into the chain. I think when information this clear and true is coming through, that could only degrade the signal, whatever the other benefits. That is just not what I am about as a listener.

I am still very grateful for the suggestion! If one ever falls out of the sky I may give it a listen, but not on the rig I am using now.

Clark

Ian Mackenzie
06-11-2007, 02:50 PM
Possibly something that is taken for granted is capacitor value tolerance.

Close to spec is important but matching between channels even more so.

MJC
06-11-2007, 02:55 PM
I have put together gear that has a very detailed, delicate, natural output to the speakers/headphones. A minimalist analog path through outstanding gear has brought me to this point, and I have no intention of inserting an a/d - d/a piece into the chain. I think when information this clear and true is coming through, that could only degrade the signal, whatever the other benefits. That is just not what I am about as a listener.
Clark
I, for one, understand that thought process. I use a Citation pre-amp and power amp to run my CC L212 with a turntable as its only source. Sweet.
I could probably use a better turntable, tho.

Ian Mackenzie
06-11-2007, 03:51 PM
I agree. There is alot to be said for keeping it simple.

While not wanting to join bashing digital processing debate here you are either in one camp or the other ultimately.

While I fully appreciate the theoretical wisdom of fully active setups it is seldom done correctly (quite right) in terms of re engineering the original passive voltage drives and as mentioned then there is all the additional stages the signal goes through.

I often wonder is the active guru hearing the modified response of the active implementation or the control over the drivers?

All the fully active results I've heard in either the digital domain or analgue with one exception is that of a fairly hard sterile sound like the original signal had been processed through a road re surfacing machine. Lynn Olsen wrote about this recently on diyaiudio.com

Without very sophisticated measuring equipment on hand I would question the value of a true fully active setup. They can take months to dial in.

I would rather spend that time enjoying other pursuits.

Granted if you want to experiment with time domain or horn equalisation the results can be interesting but a DEQX is only a tool and is only as good as the skill of the user. Typically a loudspeaker designer uses an active filter set to quickly assess the intended passive voltage drivers during development of a passive crossover network. (I can do all that myself with Soundeasy..if I wanted to and if had the time..look out for an advert in the marletplace)

Therein lies an issue with actively driving compression drivers and tweeters. To protect the delicate devices a capacitor is highly recommended in series with the drivers. To do so without is very risky.

So you are back to square one and this capacitor needs to be a large one so as not to effect the phase or transfer function of the active system. Some systems like the JBL 4435 use this capacitor as one pole of the resulting high pass filter when biamping. Clever.

Thus, on the previso that it ain't broken then don't attempt to fix it. In most cases (a sensibly engineered domestic system) 90% of the benefit can to gleened from simply biamping.

Back the mininalist audio system theory. This is where I think it makes most sense to use a carefully thought out capacitor selection.

Late at night I plug my variable output Lavry Dac directly into the Pass Labs power amp and play my favourite Cd's with simple 2 way dynamic loudspeaker (no names..a Lynn Olsen favorite).

There is only one capacitor in the signal path.......

merlin
06-11-2007, 04:04 PM
I agree. There is alot to be said for keeping it simple.

While not wanting to join bashing digital processing debate here you are either in one camp or the other ulimately.


Ultimately I'm in the analogue camp. I'm currently playing with the DEQX on some two ways and it's a fun piece of kit that makes getting good results relatively easy, rather like painting by numbers. But just as painting by numbers will never produce a great work of art, the DEQX will never make the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. It seems in some ways to act as a smoothing filter, in much the same way as the Tact RCS does - only to a lesser degree to my ears. The tiny little inflections and micro details/dynamics that make us believe things are real are missing with DEQX - good as it is in so many areas.

I was going to send mine off to Tom Evans to have it modified, but I now think I will use it short term and then sell it on once I have a decent analogue alternative in place. Don't get me wrong, the DEQX is a very impresive box of tricks and can blow the sock off most people. You would need a substantial investment in analogue electronics to get to the stage where it is shown up. But once you've been there, it's difficult to go back.

Ian Mackenzie
06-11-2007, 04:16 PM
Hi Merlin,

Nice to read an alternative view from another DEQX user.

That raises an interesting point..the conflict of trying to get it right and the significant analogue investment....

A JBL without goose bumbs is not a JBL in my book.


Back to my kitchen table....:)

Ian Mackenzie
06-14-2007, 08:16 AM
Quote:
However, I don't genuinely consider tampering in such a manner with a classic JBL design anything more than an other morph'd pseudo diy system.
""Oh come on Ian! really?
You should quickly alert the others about this! I am stunned that so many people here are enjoying "morph'd pseudo diy systems" that you helped them build!!!""

My only reason for following up on this point is everything here gets googled soon or later and I hate being misquoted.

For Natés benefit and other newer members a while back we went to great lengths to draw or make the distinction b/n diy and technical help/references. This was because all the diy and techncial (JBL) stuff was being crossed up in all sorts of threads to the point of it becoming one big noise where references to specific JBL designs and other vital technical information was becoming blurred with misinformation and non tested/ diy iterations that were plain incorrect or crazy.

Essentially technical discussions / tech help and restoration information/ data is posted in the Technical Help forums. In the diy forums "here" basically anything goes unfortunatety because its got to the stage where we neither have the time nor the inclination and to track and monitor every thread.

I am certain of that distinction with my posts. I do however spent more time than I should helping newer members stay on the rails in certain facets the diy forums.