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Ian Mackenzie
08-21-2003, 01:20 PM
I am interested in any experiences and feedback regards setting up the levels of the mid, high, Uhf levels for the 4345.

Actually, i a proud owner could share the manual recommendations, that would be nice.

There appear to be a broad range of settings and it appears to be almost the taste thing.

Ian:)

Tom Loizeaux
08-21-2003, 08:31 PM
Starting with the additude that I knew more about how these JBL monitors should be balanced than the guys at JBL, I've tried a variety of settings over many months, working to meet my mood of that day, but have found that after enough time and variety of settings, I seemed to get the level controls for the mids and highs very near mid (12 o'clock) position on my passive monitor speakers!
When I run my monitors in bi-amp mode I turn all the mid and high pots up full because their's no reason to burn off power coming rom the high frequency amp. I then balance the mids and highs by setting the power amp levels.
I've read that these level controls were included to adjust these speakers to variations in the type of rooms...and I believe that is correct. The adjustments from mid position should probably be subtle.

Tom

Alex Lancaster
08-21-2003, 08:58 PM
Tom:

about "additude", add 3dB a day, by the end of the month, You'll have +90dB, sell Your expensive amps and get some 1watt units.

Sorry, the devil made me do it.

Alex.

IDF
08-22-2003, 02:50 AM
I am interested in any experiences and feedback regards setting up the levels of the mid, high, Uhf levels for the 4345.


Hi Ian,

I have no experience with 4345s but 4343s..(Passive operation) I hope that could help.
In my room, the better levels settings are 12 o’clock for the mid, +/- 9 o’clock for the high and up full for the UHF.
I h»ve A/Bed them with various quality headphones. They sounds like crystal.
I noticed that the distance between the back and the rear wall was critical..

"Actually, i a proud owner could share the manual recommendations, that would be nice".

I do not belive that JBL ever gave recommendations on these settings as every single case is a particular one.

Regards
:)

Ian Mackenzie
08-22-2003, 03:00 AM
Tom, Alex & IDF,

Thanks for all your input,

I appreciate your response and I tend to agree it takes time and a variety of program material sources to sort out the levels.

Indeed rooms play a big part, but I am finding that the peak free response of the 4345 configuration is such that one can set up the system for a particular "Mood or Presentation" where the sound stage can be brought forward and with it the imaging, or one a soften the delivery and make the sound stage more distant.

The system also appears ruthlessly accurate, and the manner in which say DTS, 5.10 and a classical CD are mastered is immediately obvious, (even more so than the 2344) so adjusting the level controls does take a fair bit of digestion overall.

This image is courtesy of Bo

Ian

IDF
08-22-2003, 05:56 AM
Ian

The settings on the picture you attached are the best if you are lucky enough to have good room acoustics. They were mine when I lived at the country in a large house. Hope I will vacate soon
:rolleyes:
Good luck for your own settings.

Ian Mackenzie
08-22-2003, 06:24 AM
IDF,

Yeah, I just tried this and it appears good, thanks for the tip.

(My 2420/ 8 ohm ti diaphrapms are also 8 ohms like Robs so I also have to attenuate an extra 3 dba)

Over the weekend I will run some tests with the PC analyser using MLS to see what it looks like.

But given the rather less reverberant power response of the 2307/2308 compared the the 2344 (which I am more used to) this will in effect mean more attenuation for on axis listening as they tend to push a more direct sound.

Such is a the price of on axis accuracy.

Thanks again for your help

Ian

;)

4313B
08-22-2003, 06:24 AM
"The system also appears ruthlessly accurate, and the manner in which say DTS, 5.10 and a classical CD are mastered is immediately obvious"

That is a fact.
Poor source material is immediately revealed as such.
One of the old arguments back in the late 70's and early 80's against putting Studio Monitors in the home was that doing so rendered a good portion of one's source material unlistenable. Of course that didn't stop me from running through the line of 4300 series monitors and owning as many as I could afford :)

Ian Mackenzie
08-22-2003, 06:40 AM
Hi Giskard,

Yeah,

Its a 20 year trip back to the 70's-early 80's for me too.

I suppose when someone starts quizzing about levels its a dead give away!!

The flip side is of course we had those lovely imported vinyl albums from the States in those days, and with a good front end the results were quite impressive on my 4343 (diy) back then, then came CD yuck.

Oh well, its all a re learning curve but I love the sound, yummy.

Guess I'll be dusting of the old trusty Kenwood / FR 12 / mc44 in the morning for a spin soon

Ian:cool:

Ps Hey, I just realised the pics in the background were events demonstrating the 4343's at their finest, thats scary.

4313B
08-22-2003, 07:34 AM
"The flip side is of course we had those lovely imported vinyl albums from the States in those days, and with a good front end the results were quite impressive on my 4343 (diy) back then, then came CD yuck."

When they are good they are truly impressive :) Of all the 4300 series, I do miss my 4343B's the most. They are all quite fun though! :) I heard 4345's in quad a few times and that was going to be my next move but I never made it :(

As for CD yuck, I know more than one guy or gal who simply refuses to listen to anything but vinyl.

IDF
08-22-2003, 09:41 AM
"Over the weekend I will run some tests with the PC analyser using MLS to see what it looks like".


Ian

Please, let us know...
;)

boputnam
08-22-2003, 07:11 PM
"Poor source material is immediately revealed as such. One of the old arguments back in the late 70's and early 80's against putting Studio Monitors in the home was that doing so rendered a good portion of one's source material unlistenable. " And in that, Giskard is spot-on. And, he predicted as much, before these 4345's came to roost here.

I've shared - and lamented - over this unintended consequence of 43xx-series large format monitors with both Ken Pach-alphabet and Widget, independantly and in person. There is literally maybe at least 30% of my library that is undesireable - not "unlistenable", just undesireable. The 4345's are incredibly accurate (even with these "scummy" QSC's... ;) ) and I find I just prefer to listen to material that is produced properly - no compression, wide freqency response and icy transients.

Ian - you amaze me with your attention to those pics! Made me LOOK!

So, accepting that much is room related, here is how I set these 4345's up:
- everything "flat"
- EQ the room using an RTA, white and pink noise, and multitudes of real source material. Sample, re-curve, sample again, re-curve, iteratively. Do this over a few days, too. Moods matter, and your ears get "tired" (less discerning).
- then, modest adjustments to the Lpad's to accomodate differences in the UHF, HF and MF - be they timing or just presence related. Current settings are +1, -2 and +1 respectively. This was particularly important after resurrounds on the 2122H and 2245H.
- then, modest adjustment (decrease) in output of highs amp, to better balance with LF.

On some source material I futz with step 4, but always end-up back at the "default" setting anyway.

Overall, I find that when the "right" source materials is being played - whatever genre - I spend a criminal amount of time just listening. I've a favorite spot 3/4-way back the room, where I park a stool, and grab a glass of wine and just plain listen. Some fun...

Oh - almost forgot: There are no instructions/recommendations, per se, in the manuals. They are merely descriptive. Here's some Links for your perusal:

JBL Studio Monitors Link (http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Studio%20Monitor%20Series/)

JBLPro "Obsoletes" Link (http://www.jblpro.com/pages/obsolete.htm) - see "Studio Monitors" area

Ian Mackenzie
08-23-2003, 12:49 AM
Bo very interesting and thankyou,

Your feedback is reassuring and it makes the final step a real challenge.

I recall years ago having the same fixation with my diy 4343's, that is putting on a disk Saturday morning for something to break the silence, capturing the moment on say 52nd Street, and still being perched in the same spot at 3.00pm in the afternoon with nothing done around the house.

This could mean a change in lifestyle called "Take A Moment"

I will do some careful listening over this rainy weekend, but not a sip of Cab Sav or Tawny Port till I think I've got it at least half right, that would be cheating.

While we're still running warm on this thread, how do you guys park your 4343's & 4345's?

No skid marks on the carpet she says!

ie Straight head, 30 degree toed in , equilateral triangle.

If figure this would also influence the level settings

Ian

:cool:

GordonW
08-23-2003, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
Hi Giskard,

Yeah,

Its a 20 year trip back to the 70's-early 80's for me too.

I suppose when someone starts quizzing about levels its a dead give away!!

The flip side is of course we had those lovely imported vinyl albums from the States in those days, and with a good front end the results were quite impressive on my 4343 (diy) back then, then came CD yuck.

Oh well, its all a re learning curve but I love the sound, yummy.

Guess I'll be dusting of the old trusty Kenwood / FR 12 / mc44 in the morning for a spin soon

Ian:cool:

Ps Hey, I just realised the pics in the background were events demonstrating the 4343's at their finest, thats scary.

Hey, that's a Kenwood KD-2055 table, right? The synthetic concrete base, direct drive?

I had a KD2077 (very similar, but MDF base), until recently... I sold it to the same guy who bought my old KR9600 (can't beat those for a match!! :D )...

Regards,
Gordon.

Ian Mackenzie
08-23-2003, 09:24 AM
Gordon,

You are right about the Kenwood construction, it weighs a ton.

The actual model no is KD-600 (model with out arm) , we had a Fidelity FR 12 arm fitted by the dealer and FR cartridge at the time (about 1980).

I recall it was a toss up b/n the Kenwood and the Linn Sondek, but the Linn kept howling with feedback everytime they wound up the volume on the RTR Magnums/Klipshorns via the Amcon, so we bought the Kenwood.

Its never missed a beat.

As a matter of interest I am using a neat diy phono stage from Passlabs designed by Wayne Coburn. Its J Fet design with a built in Mc stage called the Pearl, and for a couple of hundred bucks compares well to $1500 exotica.

If you are interested go to this link:http://www.passdiy.com/projects/pearlono1.htm

Ian

boputnam
08-23-2003, 12:20 PM
While we're still running warm on this thread, how do you guys park your 4343's & 4345's?

No skid marks on the carpet she says!

ie Straight head, 30 degree toed in , equilateral triangle. I'm limited by the wall these must be against - it is only 11-1/2-ft wide (between the door and outer wall), so these 4345's are only 8-ft apart. But, until I move a door over a few feet, that's it. The door is on the left-hand side of the wall, and so the center of gravity, if you will, is shifted right. Therefore, the Left cabinet is about 3-ft off room center line and facing straight on; Right cabinet is about 4-ft off room center line slightly into a corner and angled-in 12.5 degrees (says the protractor), but that's as much to avoid headint-it into a big chair as it is to ensure it centers nicely in the seating area.

More, in a bit - I've got to run out for a sec...

boputnam
08-23-2003, 02:00 PM
No skid marks on the carpet she says! Back to this. I move these around too frequently - at least when working on them - and haven't left any marks, yet. But, they weigh a tonne (229 lbs., ea).

The 4245's have a base of 2x2 inch boards, in the shape of a "E". The "E" prongs are flush with the rear of the cabinet, and inset 1" from the cabinet face (sans bevel), and likewise inset 1" on each side.

When working on the transducers, I slip a hand-truck (some refer to these as "dollies", but "dollies" in-fact are flat and have four-wheels) in from the rear, centered on the middle fork of the "E". I tilt the cabinet back, but leave it on the handtruck. It is simply too heavy and there is no place to get underneath it if you lay it flat.

Rarely, I slip the handtruck in from the front (after removing the grills) - but I place two thick sheets of cardboard against the face of the cabinet between it and the handtruck for protection.

Here's what the base looks like, in plan:

Ian Mackenzie
08-23-2003, 02:59 PM
Bo,

My room has a very similar width, I will try out several positions today.

By the way, I set up the levels like you said and I like it, you can hear all the details and not too in your face.

Ian

boputnam
08-23-2003, 05:20 PM
Hey, Ian...

This pic is almost exactly how things sit - sans the 4313B's. That is a 50-in LCD TV, so having the 4345's snuggled-up on the sides give wonderful imaging with DVD's...

Ian Mackenzie
08-23-2003, 08:14 PM
Bo,

Now thats damm sexy, are you married?

I'm inspired.

Do you play the Corrs a lot when she's out shopping?

My set up in also across the wall TV in middle (not plasma , If only) but the room is not very deep, about 15 feet so your room maybe deeper. I wide screen is on the agenda.

I have baby L100's rescued from Ebay at the side rear for LR RR of DVD and have not bothered with Centre as the imaging is good.

I think set belts on the couch are mandatory for Arnie's movies, whata ya reckon.



Ian:)

Ian Mackenzie
08-24-2003, 12:15 AM
Okay,

Here is a very rough frequency response "In room" @ 1.5 metres.
The curve is unsmoothed and position of the mic was not optimised for smoothest response.

Actually, I'm gob slaped that its even remotely flat asthe baffle is actually a test Jig at the moment and the slot was sitting atop of the box.

The temporary baffle for the 2307/08 is made of cardboard so I can experiement with differing horns to locations ..just for fun before I cut the final baffle)

The levels were at 0 position.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
08-24-2003, 12:23 AM
Here is the JBL curve,

Note the resemblance, one can assume that " if " we Lansing Heritage buddys used similar test equipement and conditions our curves would be pretty close.

Ian

Ian Mackenzie
08-24-2003, 12:28 AM
Sorry,

Operator error...Muhahaha.

(data courtesy of Greg Timbers, Harman International)

Actually, I should point out Greg Timbers kindly offered me assistance some time back after emailing JBL for information regarding the tuning of the 2245 in the 4345 design.

The information Greg Timbers provided and answers to specific questions about the 4345 monitor were not only particularly helpful, but also of a friendly nature and resolved key technical challenges with the 4345 project which I would never have figured out otherwise.

Ian

boputnam
08-24-2003, 11:03 AM
Wow - nice curve, dude!! Thanks for posting the 4345 response!! Interesting impedence kick at 40Hz. And, he's indicated all Lpad's at +2dB. Most interesting, 'course my room will have none of the anechoic charateristics his surely does! :yes:

That's labelled "Page 3 of 3" - what do you 'spose is on Pages 1 and 2...?? :hmm:

Hey - if there's more you're permitted to share about Timber's advice/comments on the 4345's, you'd find many willing students here in the LansingH Country Club. :bouncy: Possible?

If they're not, you could pm me, and I'll take ALL and any of it! :D

4313B
08-24-2003, 12:48 PM
4345 Page 1/3

4313B
08-24-2003, 12:49 PM
4345 Page 2/3

4313B
08-24-2003, 12:50 PM
4345 Page 3/3

4313B
08-24-2003, 12:54 PM
4313B Page 1/2

4313B
08-24-2003, 12:54 PM
4313B Page 2/2

boputnam
08-24-2003, 01:10 PM
I fear only that there is no way to repay the debt. And, you gave-up the 4313B's, too. Whoa... :coolness:

Hey - didja notice that 4345 specs the 2421B? Ha! Reminds of a long ago posting exchange...

AND, that 4313B specs the "Midrange chamber"!! :dancin: Timing, couldn't be more perfect for knowing that - luckily, the router is idle, waiting on that very decision...

Too bad there's nothing like it for the 43xx-series Babies, the 4301B. Oh well... ;)

4313B
08-24-2003, 01:18 PM
I'm not sure what the consequences of posting these will be...


*****

"Hey - didja notice that 4345 specs the 2421B? Ha! Reminds of a long ago posting exchange..."

No, not particularly. All these 1" throat CD monitors, including the 4430/4435, were available for a time with the 2421. It was considered by many to be the preferred driver.


*****

"AND, that 4313B specs the "Midrange chamber"!! Timing, couldn't be more perfect for knowing that - luckily, the router is idle, waiting on that very decision..."

I posted with respect to that in another thread.

boputnam
08-24-2003, 01:23 PM
I wondered that, myself...

:biting:

*****


I posted with respect to that in another thread. Got it! ;)

4313B
08-24-2003, 01:41 PM
4315B Page 1/2

4313B
08-24-2003, 01:41 PM
4315B Page 2/2

4313B
08-24-2003, 01:44 PM
4355 Page 1/4

4313B
08-24-2003, 01:45 PM
4355 Page 2/4

4313B
08-24-2003, 01:45 PM
4355 Page 3/4

4313B
08-24-2003, 01:46 PM
4355 Page 4/4

4313B
08-24-2003, 01:47 PM
4333B / L300A Page 1/2

4313B
08-24-2003, 01:49 PM
4333B / L300A Page 2/2