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luxmanlover
08-18-2003, 05:18 PM
I finally got a chance to give the 2123's a test. I must say I'm most impressed. They turned out to be everything I could ask for sound wise. The 2 ways in the middle of the shot used Eminence 1" CD's, which while I thought they sounded very detailed, often sounded "shouty" particulairly on female vocals and some lead guitar.
I first tried the 2123's crossing them at 300 from the 2235's in the yard sub and 1600 over to Eminence, that didn't make much of a difference. A bunch of combo's later I tried crossing them over much higher, at 6000Hz, into the 1" CD, what an improvement. The sound became much warmer and mellower and still had improved detail over the horn/cd combo! I was quite shocked. Turning up the top end slightly made still another improvement, (gotta love active crossovers). My golden eared girlfreind could hear the difference immediately and actually made exactly the same observations without me even giving her my impressions. I can hardly wait to set it up in the house again.
Kelly

boputnam
08-18-2003, 06:34 PM
Very cool, Kelly. Nice description.

What is the brand of active crossover you're using, and what are the slopes?

For comparison, the 3145 network (passive internal, 4345) crosses the 2122H at 290 Hz and 1,300 Hz (12 dB per octave), with the 2421B running to 10kHz and crossing to the slot UHF (at 18 dB per octave) - in this configuration the compression driver takes much of the load.

The 3150 crosses the 2022H at 250Hz and 1,100Hz, and to the slot UHF at 9kHz (all at 12dB).

But, above all, take heed!! :spchless:

jblnut
08-18-2003, 06:34 PM
I couldn't help noticing what appears to be a PC2002M at the bottom of the stack. I thought I was the only one using these in a hi-fi setup. Glad to see I'm not alone ! Have you been using it for a long time ?

:-)


jblnut

luxmanlover
08-18-2003, 09:38 PM
You're preachin' to the choir as far hearing goes Bo, I damaged my hearing a while back and it's been a very slow painful recovery. I rarely listen to music much above 85-90 Db anymore, I always wear protection mowing the lawn and with any power tool louder than a cordless drill.
I found a pair of UREI 525 XO's at my buddies pro shop that need a good home so I grabbed both of them. They use 18 Db slopes and work great.
The amp on the bottom is a Yamaha, a P-2200 which I was using on the sub and a D-150a on the mid and top. That D-150a was the best $100.00 I spent on sound gear. It's crystal clear with out beening crunchy and it's dead silent, my fav amp.I haven't had the Yamaha long so I haven't tried it out much, only on bass so far, but I'm putting everything back together soon so I'll try it out on the horns and see how it sounds.
Kelly

Anton
08-19-2003, 12:22 AM
The sound diference by changing the crossover point is of great interest
to myself also . I also build a system using a 2235 and 2123H and 2421
1"' driver with a Eminence BiRadial horn

Not having active crossover I built my own passive network
,had the same sound problems to much horn etc
was using recomended tables etc.
Finally I decided to crossover the horn a 6db first order network at
about 4000Hz plus. and everuthing got sweeter sounding with having
more detail at real low listeing levels .

So I was not just hearing things .Thanks

Mr. Widget
08-19-2003, 01:20 AM
Sounds like you two should consider a different horn.

boputnam
08-19-2003, 07:59 AM
Sounds like you two should consider a different horn That's what I was thinking, too. ;)

Robh3606
08-19-2003, 08:21 AM
I will 3rd that too about the horn. Higheset reccomended on the 2123 is 3k so you are pushing it and getting into the area where that 10 will beam like a flashlight. You have any compensation on the horn?? If its a true CD like the JBL Biraidials 2344/2342/2360/2380 you need compensation otherwise the response out of the horn will follow the driver response without a horn giving you skewed output. Too much at say 1K-3K and too little on the high end. The 2370 is also a Biradial but it directivity changes with frequency and it closely matches the slat plate lense on the vintage monitors. It could use some comp above 7K but is flat up to that. It depends on what your horns are doing. Do you have a spec sheet on them for directivity and a frequency response curve with and without compensation if needed??

Rob:)

luxmanlover
08-19-2003, 05:04 PM
You guys jumped all over the horn deal....lol..... The POINT I was trying to make was how good the 2123's sounded, but I appreciate your input regardless. But you are right, I've had issues with the horn CD combo from the get go and this is just an experiment into alternatives. I also have a set of 2470's and a set of 2421 diaphrams I bought from RG. They had a smoother sound but not the top end extention of the PSD's (which has a passive compensation circuit). I still want to experiment more with that combo either on the Eminence horn or on a 2370. So if anyone has a schematic for a passive compensation circuit for 16 Ohm 2421 I'd apreciate a shout.
Kelly

boputnam
08-19-2003, 05:17 PM
Hey, Kelly...

I might be gettin' a bit confused here :duck: (and don't know enough about Eminence to know better...), but why not network the 2421's to a 2405 slot UHF ? That will surely bring the "top end extension" you're wanting, no?

And, "Bingo!!", you've got a home-grown 4345/4355 hybrid! :nutz:

Robh3606
08-19-2003, 05:28 PM
I will second that! Just get some 2307 and lenses and away you go! Nice having choices!

Rob:)

luxmanlover
08-19-2003, 05:28 PM
Hey Bo.... thanks again for the 2123 deal.. I appreciate it that much more now that I've heard them....A pair of super tweets would be the natural progression but I'm just working with what I have for now, see where the limit is. Besides I spent a fair bit of dough on the Hi-fi already this year, all deals that couldn't be passed on, ( at least that the story the GF gets). Besides I'm thinking a properly setup horn should be able to play out to my hearing limit anyway
Kelly

They only tested me to 8k last time I went to get my ears checked, I'll see if they will run it all the way up and see where it stops ....could be interesting.

Robh3606
08-19-2003, 05:39 PM
If you decide on the 2370 check out the PI speaker site. Wayne is a nice guy and uses an 18db network with compensation for that horn on a couple of his designs. If you ask him he will send you the schematics for his networks. Just something to think about if you don't want to add a slot now but want some more extension on that horn.

Rob :)

luxmanlover
08-19-2003, 05:50 PM
Actually if you look at the pic on the start of the thread , the 2 way in the middle is a 4Pi pro...lol...I talked to Wayne about it a bit but his stuff is all 8 ohms and he gave me some recommendations which for the moment are a bit over my head.
Kelly

boputnam
08-19-2003, 05:52 PM
Hey, Kelly - no need to thank me, man, glad to help.

And, I'm certainly not meaning to pry into your plan, but you are so close to a great solution! I understand the budget limit (or at least I used to...), but you can snag some 2405's or 077's on eBay for usually around $400 pr, tops.

And, my hearing - at least on one side - rolls-off at about 13k (those lads at summer camp never clued into ear-plugs on the shooting range in the 1960's... :screwy: ), and I can assure you, that every time I think loss of information >13,000Hz won't matter to me (on that ear) - it does.

Simply put, you need the transducers to exceed - seemlessly - your hearing range. And, that "golden eared girlfreind" has to be looked after too, ya know... :yes:

Mr. Widget
08-19-2003, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by luxmanlover
... Besides I spent a fair bit of dough on the Hi-fi already this year...

Oh Boy, I find it best not to think about it in those rational terms. I try to never keep track of what I am spending. Last year when someone asked me to give him a quote for building a pair of 4355s, I added up what I had spent on mine. It hadn't occurred to me that I had spent that much. Ignorance is bliss.:D

I would submit, that if you take this system to a finished cabinet level, you leave some room for possibly adding UHF drivers at a later date.

Robh3606
08-19-2003, 06:09 PM
Hey Kelly

Wow this great! LOL So you have 4Pi's with 2226's with 2 2235's as a sub with a 2123 you need to integrate with your horns? Goto love this stuff.

Rob :)

luxmanlover
08-19-2003, 07:47 PM
I'm leaning towards ditching the 2226's in favor of a 2235/2123/? 3 way. The 4Pi's were basically part of the learning curve. I wanted to do some veneering and give pro drivers a try. I think the 2235/2123 is vastly superiour to a 2226 based system. I always felt the mid range wasn't there with the 2226 the way I wanted it. Ultimately I want a system that will sound warm and detailed with out having to be played at 105 Db.
Kelly

boputnam
08-19-2003, 08:00 PM
Hey, Kelly...

Nice avatar, dude. Sweet! :D

Robh3606
08-19-2003, 11:07 PM
Hey Kelly

Well hear is my "evolution". I started with L100's. I upgraded to 4312's which still didn't do it for me. Then went too L80t3 ie 4410's. Then decided to try a poor mans L250 with L80t3s stacked on Le14A woofers. Tent Sale hit and I grabed a pair of 4655's. I never understood the HE outlook/Large format until I got a pair if HE speakers.:D I was hooked I always loved my Koss ESP-9'S but never expected the speed and dynamics from a pair of speakers. Well there it was. Just blew me away. So here I am now. I have E145's , 2122's and 2416'S with 2344A horns and Le-14A subs. I really like that 10' mid!! I think it makes all the difference. The 4344/4345 are not classics by accident. But to be honest I am tempted to try a 2 way E145/2344 based system with subs. I really like my 801C based Urie 811C center speaker. But we will see. I think you will find what you are looking for with a 2235/2123/based system. The top end is open. You can go with the 2370/2342/2344 without a slot but as Mr.Widget says you should leave that option open.

Rob:)

Mike C
08-20-2003, 05:46 AM
Hi guys, Kelly I've been following this thread with great interest. I have a pair of 2123-h's I had been using in one of my combo's, though I had been using them between 250hz and 1200hz with 4th order LW active networks. The combo was as follows:

bass 2241-h 18"
mid 2123-h 10"
top 2420a 16z with 2370 horn.
crossed at 250-1200

Tonight I hooked up this combo again and crossed the 2123
starting at 1200hz right up to 6000hz. I believe the sound was
a little sweeter up to about 3k but after that the 2370
sounded a whole bunch more spacious and there was more
presence in the whole sound stage. There is a lot to be said for
the 2370 horn, it beats the 2312 horn/lens combo I also have
hands down!!! IMHO.
Mike.

luxmanlover
08-20-2003, 07:08 AM
Thanks for all the input, this is great info. I guess I'm going to have to get serious and deal on some 2370's. I'm still interested in some passive options for the top 2123j/2421b(16 Ohm) combo.
Thank again
Kelly

Mike C
08-20-2003, 09:07 AM
Hey Kelly, I've been tinkering around all night with my above mentsioned combo. I ended up hooking up a pair of 3120a passive networks between the 2123's and the 2420's ( 1200hz )
and crossed the 2241-h's at 250hz. This is still my favorite combo, the 3120a is the best passive network I've used, it has three level settings as well as a hf switch giving three settings as well. May be its me but this network seems to blend the drivers so well. The slopes must be gentle enough to match the drivers in a way that the makes the imaging - and I don't know how to put it but the whole sound stage seem much more preceise. If you are thinking on a pair of 3120a's, I think I may be able to source a pair for you ( in the states ).
Mike......

Mike C
08-20-2003, 09:08 AM
Hey Kelly,
I've been tinkering around all night with my above mentsioned combo. I ended up hooking up a pair of 3120a passive networks between the 2123's and the 2420's ( 1200hz )
and crossed the 2241-h's at 250hz. This is still my favorite combo, the 3120a is the best passive network I've used, it has three level settings as well as a hf switch giving three settings as well. May be its me but this network seems to blend the drivers so well. The slopes must be gentle enough to match the drivers in a way that the makes the imaging - and I don't know how to put it but the whole sound stage seem much more preceise. If you are thinking on a pair of 3120a's, I think I may be able to source a pair for you ( in the states ).
Mike......

luxmanlover
08-20-2003, 12:04 PM
Hey Mike I think you're stuttering....lol....will 3120's work with 16 Ohm drivers?
Kelly

Mike C
08-20-2003, 04:03 PM
Hi Kelly, not sure what happened there, anyway the 3120a is designed for use with an 8 ohm driver on the LF side and 16 ohm for the HF side. I'm not sure if they can be used with 16 ohm on the LF side, though you could put an 8 ohm resistor in series I believe.
Mike.

Alex Lancaster
08-20-2003, 05:02 PM
Hi:

As far as I have heard (actually listened to the setups), the diff between the nominal 8 or 16 DC ohms is minimal, what is more important is the inductive impedance, which in low freq can vary a lot, and really affect the "stability" of the system.

Alex.

Ian Mackenzie
08-21-2003, 01:09 PM
Mike C,

Your comments and feeback regards the 3120 Xover suggest the more gentle slope do in effect support improve transition b/b the differing driver types.

This is not uncommon where there are differing dispersion/timbre tonal qualities in drivers around the crossover points.

Ian