First Listen - 4430s.

[sfellini]

Hello again everyone -

I've been listening to the 4430s for about a week now and
have a few comments and questions. I'm driving them
with an MC2120 amp.

So far, I've been listening mostly to jazz, and on most CDs
they sound really fine. First rate dynamics and instrumental
timbres are true. Imaging isn't particularly important to me,
but they are fine there too. Bass sounded boomy on some
jazz trio recordings, but going from the 8R to the 16R tap
on the McIntosh amp fixed that.

Now the bad news: I noticed problems immediately with
classical music. There is a lack of orchestral "bloom",
which usually means a suckout in the bass frequencies.
(I've had the problem before with other speakers in
other rooms). I used a simple Radio Shack meter and
test warble tones to try to see what was going on.

Which is: over 10 dB down around 50 Hz and 60 Hz, depending
on positioning. I tried moving both speaker and listening
positions forward and backwards, but would always get that
suckout at one or the other, or both frequencies. This is a
bummer, as replacing the room would be somewhat expensive :p.
The room is 20' x 13' x 9' (and opens into a kitchen area).

Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Steve.

[JBLnsince1959]

Steve:

when you tested this were you on the 8 or 16 tap? if you were on the 16 tap go back to the 8 and test again ( there are better ways to get rid of bloomy)

[JBLnsince1959]

The one thing I learned MOST about the 4430's is this: they will sound whatever you give them( more than most speakers). Hook them up to a MAC and they sound like a MAC, hook them up to a marantz and they sound like a marantz, mark levinson, aragon etc. My marantz MA700's worked great for "tightening up the bass"

Also, the wires and interconnects will also make a difference in the way it sounds.

Botton-line is that when things don't sound the way we want them to ( or worst, what we've been use to), we tend to blame the speakers and fight with them instead of learning to work with them. I personally did not have that type of drop with mine.

try putting it back to the 8 tap ( if you haven't done so) and try different amps if needed.

also the Mac 2120 may not be the best ( or the best MAC) for the 4430 with it's Damping factor of 14. Mac's will have a very full bass compared to some other amps, which can sound bloomy on the 4430 if not setup right or corrected by such means as building stands( geting them off the floor) or retuning, or stuffing

[JuniorJBL]

look also at your transport (CD player) and pre amp as well. these things can add thier "own" sound. If your transport has a digital coax out try an outboard DAC.

I just had a demo with a Musical Fidelity KW500 and was blown away by the pre amp that is part of this unit. It made my adcom GFP-750 sound like an Emmerson all-in-one stereo. I also had a demo of a musical fidelity X-DACv3 and it had a nice affect on my denon 3910 dvd player.

as it has been said here speakers are not always the problem. They can tend to show you the weekness of other components tho (4430 is a good example of this)

my 2c:)

[JBLnsince1959]

look also at your transport (CD player) and pre amp as well. these things can add thier "own" sound.

as it has been said here speakers are not always the problem. They can tend to show you the weekness of other components tho (4430 is a good example of this)

my 2c:)

10-4..... the 4430's were my best speakers to "hear" the differences of different components. also, the secret with these puppies is patience :D

[Mr. Widget]

Electronics? Wires? ....well yeah sure, but start off by looking at the problem. You are probably right to think of the room and placement. The bass suck out is definitely a room mode issue. Try placing the speakers diagonally in the room.

Another issue is that the stock 4430 has the classic JBL bass bump. The tuning of the ports is a bit high. If you lower the tuning a bit you will get a more extended and more natural response. If you do some "searches" you will find info on this.

Widget

[JBLnsince1959]

Electronics. The bass suck out is definitely a room mode issue. Try placing the speakers diagonally in the room.

Another issue is that the stock 4430 has the classic JBL bass bump. The tuning of the ports is a bit high. If you lower the tuning a bit you will get a more extended and more natural response. If you do some "searches" you will find info on this.

Widget

I agree ( under normal circumstances)... however, he mentioned that he switched the taps and that changed the bass and now he doesn't have enough with some music. So it seems logical to get the bass back to where is was ( 8 tap) and then work with room placement and tuning. If the 16 tap has made a difference ( as he said it has), seems like the first place to look and then test again.

[Mr. Widget]

Sure, it would be a good idea to also try any competent SS amp and see how it behaves. The transformer coupled amps can be problematic with JBLs.

That said, rooms and room placement play a huge roll in LF performance.

Widget

[JBLnsince1959]

The transformer coupled amps can be problematic with JBLs.

That said, rooms and room placement play a huge roll in LF performance.

Widget

10-4...I was just wanting him to undo ( if he hadn't done it already) what he did and get the bass back to where he started and then measure again.

I had the same problem with my 4430's ( I didn't change the tap tho, so I don't know what that would do) at first. Room placement and getting them off the floor did the trick for me.

[sfellini]

I agree ( under normal circumstances)... however, he mentioned that he switched the taps and that changed the bass

Thanks for the suggestions so far...

Let me qualify what I said - changing the taps changed the character
of the bass, not the frequency response. I did do the frequency response checks with both the 16R and 4R taps: both had the 50/60 Hz suckout.

[edgewound]

I agree with Widget...sounds like an acoustics problem. Have you ever had speakers of this size in your room? What's it sound like in an adjacent room? Move yourself around the room while classical is playing and maybe you'll fine a "hot spot" of bass....then move again and maybe you'll find the "suck out" problem. You might have to resort to bass traps to fix your room...or some other acoustics treatment...or simply moving the speakers might help....just some thoughts:)


Edgewound

[Mr. Widget]

Have you tried radical changes in room placement? Getting them off the floor will definitely smooth out the bass but will also reduce the bass below around 80Hz.

Widget

[JBLnsince1959]

Thanks for the suggestions so far...

Let me qualify what I said - changing the taps changed the character
of the bass, not the frequency response. I did do the frequency response checks with both the 16R and 4R taps: both had the 50/60 Hz suckout.


knowing that then it sounds more like room placement or some other fix is needed.

did it do the same with the 8 tap?

[edgewound]

As an aside...but I think relevant here...Most recording studio monitors of this size are soffit mounted....way off the floor, and surrounded by soft, padded walls...in other words... a dead room. When they're on the floor, and/ or in a corner, you get a 3-6dB increase in most everything below 100Hz, and that includes the associated room peaks and nulls that go with it. Maybe we're throwing out too much info...lol.


Edgewound

[Zilch]

The JBL LSR RMC Room Mode Correction User Guide has an interesting exposition of these problems and potential resolutions. Response dips due to floor reflections are most prominent, occurring between 50 and 90 Hz.

"The dip, if it is severe, must be corrected through rearrangement of loudspeaker and listening positions."

EQing out any boundary boost between 40 and 60 Hz may help smooth it out, as well. Move 'em away from the walls.

I've never had a problem with 4430's. I plunk 'em and play 'em, always to great satisfaction.

Try a different amp, SS, preferably.

If you elevate them substantially, turn 'em upside down, as JBL recommends.

As a last resort, trade up to 4435's.... :p

[JBLnsince1959]

As a last resort, trade up to 4435's.... :p

:applaud:

seriously tho, as I said in other posts. these puppies take awhile to get it "right" but once you do...it's real sweet and worth the effort.

[sfellini]

Have you tried radical changes in room placement? Getting them off the floor will definitely smooth out the bass but will also reduce the bass below around 80Hz.

Widget

Since returning home tonight, I've tried:

(1) Boulder SS amp (DC-coupled).
(2) Diagonal placement in room.
(3) Turned speakers upside-down (to
check out floor-cancellation effects).

In all cases the 10+ dB dip at 50 Hz was
present, 40 Hz was gone as well. (Diagonal
placement helped at 60 Hz).

(Early on, I thought I'd better check the
driver response at a couple of inches
to try and eliminate the room effects:
woofer was flat down to 50 Hz, and the
port output increased down to 32 Hz).

So my room is cursed at 50Hz? :mad:

[Robh3606]

Have you tried placement on the long walls?? My room is similar size and I also have a 50-60 Hz problem. I set the room up so the speakers are on the long wall but on one side of the room. If I try with them on the short wall all hell breaks loose. Attached is a sketch of what I mean. Good Luck


Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

(Early on, I thought I'd better check the
driver response at a couple of inches
to try and eliminate the room effects:
woofer was flat down to 50 Hz, and the
port output increased down to 32 Hz).

So my room is cursed at 50Hz? :mad:

Not cursed... it is normal for the 2235 to start to fade below 50Hz if you don't have them near a wall or corner to aid in room gain. It is also impossible to take accurate bass measurements in any real room without sophisticated equipment and jumping through hoops!

I would suggest you try raising them off the floor and see if that subjectively sounds better... also you mentioned that the 60Hz got better with the speakers placed diagonally. You need to focus more on listening and less on measuring as your measurements may be leading you astray. How did music sound while they were diagonally placed?

Widget

[jblnut]

Maybe we're looking past the obvious here - couldn't a decent sub be brought into the mix to augment the lower regions ?
If you're happy with everything else they do, I say don't mess with it. Get a sub and be done with it...

jblnut

[edgewound]

Here's an inexpensive, albeit somewhat time consuming possible solution....but might be fun and worth it.

What might be happening is a dramatic difference or bump as Widget said, between the outputs of the woofer cone and port...According to the JBL manual, the 4430 is +/- 3db at 35Hz and 3dB down @ 32Hz, and can take full power input at 27Hz. It's possible to alter the response, and hopefully smooth it out by changing the amount of stuffing in the cabinet (virtual volume) to make the cabinet act like a larger one. You could also try dampening the port itself with some open cell foam or dacron batting to slow the vent down, like a Vario-vent. Especially with uncompressed classical recordings where there might be some subsonic rumble and very low 16Hz organ notes and tympany's

Edgewound

[JuniorJBL]

Sumiko has a great way to position speakers that works every time. I can not remember how to do this but you might call them and ask how to do it.

I do know that you start out by putting the speakers aginst the walls and angle the left speaker towards the listening position (about 18" directly behind the listening position) and moove it forward until the LF response is good(the other speaker is pointing directly ahead). you then angle the right speaker to the same 18" behind spot and start moving it forward, you listen for image at this point(they say to use a smooth female vocalist for this part) keep moving the speaker until the image hits center. The speakers will most likely not be the same distance from the back wall. you then tilt the speakers forwards or backwards to fine tune the image (i forgot what you listen for here:( sorry) . It takes two people to do this, one to listen and one to move them. You can avoid cancelation problems and the likes. It was a few years back but it worked every time and in every room.

Maybe this helps:)

[JBLnsince1959]

Just wondering..( maybe I missed this earlier) on which wall are the speakers and how far from the wall and corners are they?

Don't get pissed or depressed, these speakers ( like many others) take some work and there are many options, from using a good equalizer, to retuning, stuffing, off the floor, using subs.

My favorite when using an active crossover was to place the 4430's upside down on top of 2235 custom subs tuned to 32 ( a sort of MTM thingy) crossed over around 50 to 60.

anyway, this is the "fun" part :D , you'll get it....

[Jakob]

A very interesting thread indeed!

I've been fortunate (or missfortunate...) to move around a lot, so I have listened to my speakers in a lot of different rooms. It's a fact that they don't sound like the same speakers in different rooms. It's not all about geometry but allso window placing, building materials, if it is top floor, bottom floor etc... A pair of speakers I loved in one room could sound unlistenable in another. Often though, you get used to it over time, You just have to let your ears get used to that particular rooms acoustics.
If you don't want to get used to it, my answer would be: try jblnut's solution. If you have a pair of subs You will probably be able to solve any problems in the bass region. Use EQ to target specific areas.
Good luck!

Jakob

[sfellini]

Just wondering..( maybe I missed this earlier) on which wall are the speakers and how far from the wall and corners are they?


They are firing down the long axis of the 20' x 13' room. About
four feet from the wall. Well away from the corners.

Steve.

[sfellini]

Have you tried placement on the long walls??


Thanks Rob, I will give this a try.

Steve.

[DavidF]

Hello again everyone -



Now the bad news: I noticed problems immediately with
classical music. There is a lack of orchestral "bloom",
which usually means a suckout in the bass frequencies.
(I've had the problem before with other speakers in
other rooms). I used a simple Radio Shack meter and
test warble tones to try to see what was going on.



It sounds as though you are measuring at distance as you move around. Have you tried measuring the bass response with the meter near-field, nearly touching the cone? Measuring this way can reduce the room effect and make some determinations whether this is a room-related issue.

I have a 50-60 spike in my room. Standing waves. Different locations mitigate the problem, but do not remove it.

David F

[sfellini]

It sounds as though you are measuring at distance as you move around. Have you tried measuring the bass response with the meter near-field, nearly touching the cone? Measuring this way can reduce the room effect and make some determinations whether this is a room-related issue.
David F

Hi David, yes I did what you suggested...



(Early on, I thought I'd better check the
driver response at a couple of inches
to try and eliminate the room effects:
woofer was flat down to 50 Hz, and the
port output increased down to 32 Hz).


Between the output from the woofer &
port, there was solid response out to
32 Hz. So yes, it looks like a room issue.

I'm continuing to move the speakers around,
but will be leaving in a few days for a couple
of weeks of bike riding in Italy. So no audio
for awhile.

Not even bringing an iPod :).

Steve.

[Matt Garrett]

Wow, that is some super technical stuff, way above my head. I too have had these same problems on most speakers with room placement, lacking bass at certain freqs, etc. Before I ever gave up on speakers, I just added subs. This fixes everything in most cases plus some!

[Audiobeer]

Unbelievable Matt! Very Nice! By the way........what is your street address? :D

[sfellini]

Hello again all -

I'm back from vacation, ears fully rested :), and have
made some progress in getting good sound from my 4430s.
I was a little more systematic about measuring the bass
frequency response, measuring them every 6 inches or so
from the wall. Here's what I got...

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=9103&stc=1

I realize this isn't very precise but it was worthwhile doing
because it seemed to point out that it was better to place
them nearer the wall rather than farther.

I hadn't listened to them very close to the wall, but now, at
around 24" away, jazz music is now sounding wonderful.

Particularly in trios (like Bill Evans) - the bass is always hard
to get right in my room. Female vocals (Sarah Vaughn) are also outstanding, as are mid-sized ensembles (Duke) putting out
some major dBs.

I've got them toed in quite a bit as I've got lots of hard surfaces
about and trying to reduce the HF flying around. It also helps
imaging in my room.

I haven't listened much to orchestral music yet, but I'm afraid
the shelving below 80Hz will really detract.

I've been enjoying this forum very much - thanks everyone.

Steve.

[Mr. Widget]

I haven't listened much to orchestral music yet, but I'm afraid
the shelving below 80Hz will really detract.

I have been using a pair of JBL 1500ALs and getting somewhat similar results in my listening room. I tried "fixing" the bass with radical parametic EQ, but have ultimately gone with adding a pair of JBL Sub1500s to the mix... It is really working now... it took quite a few days to get it dialed in, but on Friday, I had a Stereophile reading "Audiophile" over for a listen... first off he was shocked that, "horns could sound that good!" and as he walked around the room listening he asked, "Have you tried them with the subs...?" When I told him they were on he was quite surprised. Short of putting your hand on the cone to feel it pumping you really can't tell that the sub is adding to the mix.

I have the 1500ALs running with no high pass filtering and the subs come in at 50Hz with a 24dB/octave slope.

Widget

[JBLnsince1959]

I have the 1500ALs running with no high pass filtering and the subs come in at 50Hz with a 24dB/octave slope.

Widget

close to what I did to correct some problems also.