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RacerXtreme
06-12-2005, 04:42 AM
Do these sound that good or are they extremely rare - or both ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3284&item=5781389475&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

That's a lot of $$ for 1 compression driver....................:biting:





Guy

dancing-dave
06-12-2005, 07:09 AM
It can put out special sound frequencies that have been found to remove malicious cancer tumors and cure AIDS.

johnaec
06-12-2005, 07:27 AM
That's insane! I wonder how many thousands of those just ended up in dumps?


John

Robh3606
06-12-2005, 07:55 AM
Well thats a $5000 crap shot! I inderstand it look's like NOS which is amazing but I hope it was stored for the last 70 years in right enviornment.


Rob:)

RacerXtreme
06-12-2005, 09:07 AM
2 words come to mind: "Antique" and "Investment"........ AND it must sound incredible. Must not be a lot of them left, and someone obviously feels it's a good investment. :blink: I could buy a lot of stuff for $5,000.............:banghead:



Guy

RacerXtreme
06-12-2005, 09:13 AM
It's OVER 6 GRAND now..................:blink: :banghead: :barf: :applaud: :blah:

Earl K
06-12-2005, 09:40 AM
- The 597b shown in these pics, sold for $10,000. (US) back in 2002 .
- Since then, I believe the market has softened some / OTOH / these units are extremely rare.

- The last photo gives a pretty decent shot of the drivers phase-plug .

:cheers:

RacerXtreme
06-12-2005, 11:42 AM
Just out of curiosity, how many of these units have survived ? I realize that's a difficult question to answer, but approximately how many ? As with any antique, the smaller the number of surviving examples, the higher the price.

I still don't get it tho, 10 grand for one compression driver ? After you paid that much for it, would you put it on a shelf and admire it or hook it up and listen to it ? Do they sound that good ??? What type of bass enclosure would you use with it ??? Guess if you had that much $$ it wouldn't matter.......:blink:


:biting:

Marty
06-12-2005, 11:56 AM
It's OVER 6 GRAND now..

The last two went for $12k each , this one should do that too.

That's the third new one that's come up now - I believe they were withdrawn by W.E. after a brief trial period.

They were used as UHF on W.E.'WIDE-RANGE' 3-way SYSTEM (early 1930s) but were often disconnected
because they emphasized disc hiss only (the VITAPHONE soundtracks used records played in sync with film)

hector.murray
06-12-2005, 08:15 PM
really expensive paper weight.

Mr. Widget
06-13-2005, 01:22 AM
really expensive paper weight.

True... but I bet there are Tiffany paper weights that are worth more to the right collector.:D

Widget

pangea
06-13-2005, 04:40 AM
What am I missing here?

To me, it seems there are plenty of greedy people out there, with a lot more money than common sense.

BR
Roland

4345
06-13-2005, 07:42 AM
Perhaps you would have the government sieze this guys 597A driver?

How about a maximum price for all e-bay auctions? Say $50. Maybe we should just ban all financial transactions. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/bs.gif

pangea
06-13-2005, 08:20 AM
Perhaps you would have the government sieze this guys 597A driver?

How about a maximum price for all e-bay auctions? Say $50. Maybe we should just ban all financial transactions. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/bs.gif

Sorry if I stepped on your toes. Sensitive issue I think.;)


But hey, don't get me started here, in my view, this planet wont be able to avoid a total political and financial "meltdown", ever, as long as we buy in to the notion that EVERYTHING in this world has to be centerd around money and power.

I think people get along just fine, until someone adds the element of money.

All the :bs: in this world is IMHO, the result of us believing the world couldn't work without money and power.

The perfect lie, is the one, told so many times, that it makes the truth seem like a perverted dilusion.

Sorry about the OT, I just couldn't help my self.

BR
Roland

Marty
06-13-2005, 10:35 AM
Just out of curiosity, how many of these units have survived ? I realize that's a difficult question to answer, but approximately how many ? As with any antique, the smaller the number of surviving examples, the higher the price.

I still don't get it tho, 10 grand for one compression driver ? After you paid that much for it, would you put it on a shelf and admire it or hook it up and listen to it ? Do they sound that good ??? What type of bass enclosure would you use with it ??? Guess if you had that much $$ it wouldn't matter.......:blink:


:biting:

Hmmm, low production (serial # is lo 2000's) probably a few hundred surviving units.

These are UHF tweeters for above 4000 hz only . Might sound similar to an Altec 3000
but much more esoteric (designed by Bell Labs N.Y. in the late 1920's)

Speech Coil = 20 ohms
Field Coil = 6.6 ohms
Field Power = 7 volts @ 1.06 amps = 6.8 W
Speech Power = 6 W
Dimensions = 7" x 4.25" (including horn)
Weight = 6.5 lbs

Steve Schell
06-13-2005, 11:30 AM
The W.E. 596A and 597A (differing only in style of connectors, I believe) were an important milestone in loudspeaker development; they were literally the world's first tweeters.

In L.G. Bostwick's article "A Loudspeaker Good to Twelve Thousand Cycles" (Bell Laboratories Record, May 1931) he describes his driver as having a response from 3,000 Hz. to 12,000Hz. with an overall efficiency of about twenty percent. He states: "Twelve thousand cycles is within the highest octave that can normally be perceived by the ear, but yet it has been found that certain musical instruments and voices, and many common sounds such as jingling of keys or coins, have overtones or harmonics that make such a loud speaker necessary for perfect reproduction." It is hard to imagine now, but he was writing this at a time when people had never heard such sounds reproduced properly before.

As Marty pointed out, these drivers were way ahead of their time, reproducing mostly noise in the early Vitaphone sound sources. They were installed in the W.E. "Wide Range" theatre sound systems of the early to mid 1930s, which augmented the earlier "Voice In Action" full range snail horn systems by adding woofers and tweeters to a flat baffle mounted under the large horns.

Bostwick was well aware of the problems of such extended frequency response. He concludes his article with these thoughts: "...a loud speaker efficient at high frequencies introduces other difficulties that would not be encountered if the high frequencies were suppressed. For example, amplifier overloading becomes much more strident, and noise may increase to an objectionable extent. A loud speaker of the type described, therefore, cannot be used to full advantage in systems where these factors are not favorable."

While I'm sure that others would have developed tweeters eventually, Mr. Bostwick did it in about 1930! Here is another example of so many good things, speaker wise, tracing their origins back to Bell Telephone Laboratories.

I have listened to a 596A. I sounded very sweet, perhaps not as extended as some more modern tweeters, but not the least bit raspy either. Although its 180 milligram moving mass should allow response higher than 12k, the single slit exit path probably introduces a phase cancellation that knocks out higher frequencies.

The high prices paid for these are mostly fueled by their rarity and value as status symbols, but this would not be the case if they did not sound very good to begin with. I'll bet that Mr. Bostwick would enjoy watching these auctions if he was still with us.

JohnK
06-13-2005, 12:15 PM
Not only was there a problem with high frequency noise and pops from the soundtrack, but the propagation delay differences from that little horn and the large wood horns is/was terrible, the audio equivalent of not having the film in sync with the sound. The same problem occured when the cone woofers were added. The "Wide Range" systems seem to have been a flop.

Those little tweeters are very cute, however, I didn't think that they sounded much different than the 075, and the 075 was much easier to find.

For as "rare" as these are supposed to be, they seem to show up on ebay about every other month.

Marty
06-14-2005, 12:30 PM
... its 180 milligram moving mass ....

The W.E. 596/597 used low mass duraluminum diaphragms
Like the ALTEC 3000 ? Which uses an aluminum microphone diaphragm ?

One could make custom Horn Supertweeters by starting with a microphone or headphone motor assembly
and adding a horn with a 'bullet' phasing plug

I have dismantled FISHER & MAGNAVOX Horn Tweeters from the 1950s - they had phenolic diaphragms (disappointing)
and similar 'bullet' phasing plug like the W.E.. These components could be used for custom Horn Supertweeters.

Steve Schell
06-14-2005, 02:37 PM
Marty, the use of a phenolic diaphragm does not necessarily imply a crummy tweeter. Many of the best ones, like the EVs and the Jensen RP-302 used a linen and phenolic diaphragm. RCA claimed a higher stiffness to weight ratio for the material compared to metal way back in the 1930s, and it has better self damping properties as well. I have a big 70lb. slab of phenolic material out in my shop. It just goes "thud" when hit with a hammer. I'd hate to hear the sound of a similar sized piece of aluminum!

Phenolic diaphragms have been used in lots of cheapo drivers because they are easy and inexpensive to produce. They are also very resistant to heat and fatigue, which is why they are used in most high power paging drivers.

4345
06-14-2005, 02:43 PM
Steve - Did the E.V. T350 use a phenolic diaphram? I think I recall it did. My friend has a pair of Cornwalls with this tweeter. After seeing the diaphram material, I was very surprised at how nice the high frequency was.

RacerXtreme
06-14-2005, 02:51 PM
3 days, 4 hrs to go.......... the Ebay ad that started this post is up to

$7300.00




:blink: :biting: :barf: :banghead:


Do you think it will hit $10,000 ?

Marty
06-14-2005, 10:20 PM
Do you think it will hit $10,000 ?

:hyp: Get ready for 12 Kilobucks :hyp:

aust-ted
06-15-2005, 03:17 AM
Hi

I actually have a 597A which I acquired at a swap meet some years ago along with a matching 12" electro magnetic bass driver. Couple of problems with them though. Although the voice coil seems intact, it had become separated from the diaphragm, I suspect because the glue used had failed over the years. I have not dared try to fix it.

The bass driver unit sadly has the nameplate removed from the back of it but am pretty sure it is a WE unit because of the label near the tube socket for the rectifier which is attached to it. I gather the 597A gets its DC power from here also. It has a leather surround. Not sure if that is original or a mod.

These units originally came from a picture theatre in NSW from the early days of the talkies.

With these prices perhaps I should put them on eBay

Regards
Ted

Marty
06-15-2005, 07:53 AM
Hi

I .. have a 597A ..from a picture theatre in NSW ..

Ted

Hi

Since you can see inside it, what is the VC diameter ? What is the suspension/surround:
radial-spiral like W.E. 555 & Altec 802, or roll-suspension like W.E. 594 & JBL 375 ?

Yours seems to be repairable. There's a guy in Calif who repairs Altec 3000's (similar diaphragm?)

The LF driver would be a TA-4151(A) or TA 5153(A) with on-board W.E. 275A rectifier bottle.
(used in W.E. 'WIDE-RANGE' sound system)

Steve Schell
06-15-2005, 09:02 AM
4345, I've never had a t-350 apart, but believe that all the EVs used a phenolic diaphragm. The good phenolic tweeters do seem to have less coloration than those with metal diaphragms. I have noticed that metal diaphragms do sound metallic after one has been listening to phenolic diaphragmed drivers for awhile.

Aust-ted, I have a friend in Sydney who is a highly skilled speaker restoration expert and historian, the world's best in my opinion. He has repaired 597As in the past; perhaps he could restore yours to working condition. If you like I'll put you two in touch- please contact me at stfrsc@juno.com.

edgewound
06-15-2005, 09:30 AM
Great thread guys...I 've learned lots today.

The EV T35, T350, ST350 does use phenolic diaphragm with a 1" voice coil, with no coil former bonded directly to the diaphragm. I've repaired lots of these for both pro-sound and hifi systems. Klipsch used these in at least the Heresy and the La Scala as well. They seem to be smoother and less longterm fatiguing to list to....and a heck of alot tougher that aluminum or titanium units. But hey...who's to say what's better? Sometimes I like Merlot, other times I want Pinot Noir.

Great stuff guys,

Edgewound

Steve Schell
06-15-2005, 09:50 AM
All good points, edgewound. I've been a Merlot hound for awhile, just beginning to discover Pinot Noir. Have you seen the movie "Sideways"?

Mr. Widget
06-15-2005, 10:52 AM
Phenolic is smooth eh? Rolled off perhaps, I've used dozens of T35As with alnico and ferrite mags and never thought of them as particularly smooth.

Beryllium is where it's at... now that is smooth.

Widget

Steve Schell
06-15-2005, 11:14 AM
Hi Mr. Widget,

Your plot looks like the T-35 rolls off above a mass corner of 8kHz. or so. This doesn't look so great on paper, but note the lack of response peaks up high; this driver probably maintains piston response through the audible range and will sound very clean if a bit dull. The rolloff could be corrected with some simple EQ. Many metal diaphragms will measure hotter on top, but this response is often achieved through break up resonances, creating the characteristic "tsss tsss tsss" spitty tweeter sound. Beryllium diaphragms probably do the best job of the metals of maintaining piston response, but I haven't found any I can live with as easily as the phenolics. As edgewound said, merlot or pinot?

paragon
06-15-2005, 11:21 AM
Thats what i heared in the early 80 `s in a disco with a pair of E-Voice Sentry 3 (may not be for home listening) standing 12" above the ground. No Highs, only mittle and bass. Thats when I think that the 075 (2402) is much better (heared in an other Disco) than the E-Voice T35.
Love the Sentry 3 off course !

Eckhard

Mr. Widget
06-15-2005, 11:28 AM
Beryllium diaphragms probably do the best job of the metals of maintaining piston response, but I haven't found any I can live with as easily as the phenolics. As edgewound said, merlot or pinot?

Yeah, it is a personal preference issue. I like reds... but I love Guinness:applaud:

Widget

edgewound
06-15-2005, 03:11 PM
Great commentary, guys:)


Yep...Beryllium is bitchen....did I spell that right?...and it's WAY expensive. the EV T35 diaphragm is less than 50 bucks...the TAD ET-703 and earlier are I think a couple of hundred....TAD 4000 diaphragms are around 600 bucks.

So I'd say the little phenolic EV does a quite respectable job in that sense(cents?).

FWIW...I haven't heard too many audiophile sounding disco systems lately...which should be a crime...because there is big bucks invested in some fantastic, absolutely torturous sounding nightclubs.

I like beer to...sorry... just good ol' MGD ice cold...mmmmm...no offense Mr. Widget

Love to all;)

Edgewound

Steve Schell
06-15-2005, 07:08 PM
Someone on the AA High Efficiency Speakers forum just posted this link to a Chinese company providing beryllium diaphragms. They look like they might be good; JBL knockoffs done in Be.

http://www.xkoncord.com/big5/list04.htm

RacerXtreme
06-15-2005, 07:10 PM
A little less than 2 days left and the auction is up to $8599.00.



:applaud:

edgewound
06-15-2005, 07:33 PM
All good points, edgewound. I've been a Merlot hound for awhile, just beginning to discover Pinot Noir. Have you seen the movie "Sideways"?

Steve...

"Sideways" was hilarious...and my fiance' and I went up to Solvang a few weeks ago and did sort of a "Sideways" tour on a weekend. What a blast...we went to The Hitchin' Post, Fess Parker (Frass Canyon), Foxen, Firestone, Rusack, and some others....found some great wine right here in good ol' Californee.

Highly recommend....sorry to be off topic:(

Edgewound

edgewound
06-15-2005, 07:46 PM
Someone on the AA High Efficiency Speakers forum just posted this link to a Chinese company providing beryllium diaphragms. They look like they might be good; JBL knockoffs done in Be.

http://www.xkoncord.com/big5/list04.htm

Very, very interesting stuff, indeed

scott fitlin
06-15-2005, 08:23 PM
Someone on the AA High Efficiency Speakers forum just posted this link to a Chinese company providing beryllium diaphragms. They look like they might be good; JBL knockoffs done in Be.

http://www.xkoncord.com/big5/list04.htmIt looks like Altec diaphragms too! The JBL diaphragms look to be well made!

Wonder what they cost?

:thmbsup:

Steve Schell
06-15-2005, 08:58 PM
Edgewound, I split my sides laughing through Sideways. I had just returned from a northern CA trip, and had just had dinner at Pea Soup Andersen's two evenings before my nephew loaned me the DVD.

In the optional voiceover narration, actor Paul Giamatti explains that "frass" is a term that refers to insect excrement.

edgewound
06-15-2005, 09:04 PM
Edgewound, I split my sides laughing through Sideways. I had just returned from a northern CA trip, and had just had dinner at Pea Soup Andersen's two evenings before my nephew loaned me the DVD.

In the optional voiceover narration, actor Paul Giamatti explains that "frass" is a term that refers to insect excrement.

Well that explains the taste of the wine there:blink: ....doh!

Edgewound

scott fitlin
06-15-2005, 09:20 PM
Yeah, it is a personal preference issue. I like reds... but I love Guinness:applaud:

WidgetYou like Guiness? I could see you having a Samuel Adams Honey Porter! Dark, heavy brew! :)

pangea
06-15-2005, 11:42 PM
Someone on the AA High Efficiency Speakers forum just posted this link to a Chinese company providing beryllium diaphragms. They look like they might be good; JBL knockoffs done in Be.

http://www.xkoncord.com/big5/list04.htm

Anyone know what they cost and if the quality is comparable to JBL or Radians and last but not least, do they sound as expected?


BR
Roland

Mr. Widget
06-16-2005, 12:00 AM
Anyone know what they cost and if the quality is comparable to JBL or Radians and last but not least, do they sound as expected?

If anyone wants to spring for a pair I'd be happy to run some tests on them and post the measurements. We could compare frequency response, distortion and impedance with original JBLs.

Widget

pangea
06-16-2005, 02:31 AM
I wrote them a mail yesterday and this is the answer I got.

BR Roland
---------------

Hi-
WE DONOT KNOW THE DETAIL OF JBL2441/2445J

IF YOU CAN TELL US THE VOICE COIL INNER DIAMETER AND PICTURE OR DRAWING

WOULD HELP US TO QUOTE THE PRICE.

BY THE WAY, COULD WE HAVE YOUR WEBSITE OR BASIC INFORMATION ABOUT YOUR COMPANY

BEST RGDS/TONY

---------------------------------

PS: What impression does this give you? DS.

Figge
06-16-2005, 03:07 AM
IF YOU CAN TELL US THE VOICE COIL INNER DIAMETER AND PICTURE OR DRAWING

:blink:

4345
06-16-2005, 03:53 AM
This factory is probably reluctant to mention JBL products due to copyright concerns. I think there is no doubt they are familiar with JBL products. They probably have them in the factory to use as a reference.

I would imagine that it is a Taiwanese run operation. I heard that JBL made many of its diaphrams in Taiwan at one point. Does anybody know if this is true?

aust-ted
06-16-2005, 05:22 AM
Hi

Since you can see inside it, what is the VC diameter ? What is the suspension/surround:
radial-spiral like W.E. 555 & Altec 802, or roll-suspension like W.E. 594 & JBL 375 ?

Yours seems to be repairable. There's a guy in Calif who repairs Altec 3000's (similar diaphragm?)

The LF driver would be a TA-4151(A) or TA 5153(A) with on-board W.E. 275A rectifier bottle.
(used in W.E. 'WIDE-RANGE' sound system)

Marty

Thanks for your advice.

Give me a few days and I will post some pics to answer your questions. It is some time since I checked them out.

Am pretty busy on a non-audio project just at present.

Regards
Ted

Zilch
06-16-2005, 01:24 PM
PS: What impression does this give you? DS.It confirms my impression that this is a manufacturer of OEM components, to order, in volume, and they have NO interest in selling low quantities to end users.

Ask them their minimum order quantity to set up and manufacture any particular design.

I would also inquire as to their program for handling the toxicity issues....

Maron Horonzakz
06-16-2005, 03:58 PM
Widget....(just got home from a long trip) That Ev T35 frequency sweep chart Is mine on my T35 tweeter. It was done in St Louis at CID Central Instatute of the Deaf. Many many years ago. John Warren used it for an article on that tweeter. I still have that tweeter. The phenolic/linnen are original. That is a typicle response curve on those T35 tweets. We were doing tests on Chinchila,s (At max spl). I wont go into details.

Mr. Widget
06-16-2005, 05:18 PM
Is it a pretty chrome one or one of the black OEM versions? If it is a chrome one I'd put it on display... OEM, well they go for $75 on eBay.:D

Widget

Steve Schell
06-16-2005, 06:38 PM
I just ran across this site. The fellow offers MP3 files of old 78rpm discs. He uses a Western Electric 4A "cartridge", which was the original Vitaphone unit. Check out his analysis of the spectral content of the Vitaphone discs, which seem to die above 5kHz.

No wonder the 596A/597A mostly reproduced noise!

http://www.meloware.com/vitaphone/repro.htm

RacerXtreme
06-18-2005, 06:39 AM
And the selling price for the W.E. driver is:


$8600.00


:blink:

Figge
06-18-2005, 06:58 AM
one could buy a nice car a complete stereo and go to the pub for about a year for that but no! buy a 70 year old tweeter instead!

Marty
06-19-2005, 08:34 PM
Marty

Thanks for your advice.

Give me a few days and I will post some pics to answer your questions. It is some time since I checked them out.

Am pretty busy on a non-audio project just at present.

Regards
Ted

Ted:

Looking forward to some pictures & details !

I've been looking at VC diameters of 1950s Fisher, University, & Magnavox horn tweeters:
Both the University horn & 'Sphericon' (lower right) tweeters had 0.75" Voice Coils,
while the others were 1" - all are phenolic material

Marty
06-19-2005, 08:47 PM
I just ran across this site. The fellow offers MP3 files of old 78rpm discs. He uses a Western Electric 4A "cartridge", which was the original Vitaphone unit. Check out his analysis of the spectral content of the Vitaphone discs, which seem to die above 5kHz.

No wonder the 596A/597A mostly reproduced noise!

http://www.meloware.com/vitaphone/repro.htm

Steve:

The 4A sound has lots of character and very true spectral fidelity.

BELL LABS Engineering Board meets:
Chairman: "What are we going to do about the disc hiss above 5 kilocycles ?"
Bostwick: "Sir, I propose we reproduce it with the world's most expensive Supertweeter."
Chairman: "Excellent idea Bostwick; by the way, what's a Supertweeter ?"

Picture inside Bell Labs:

aust-ted
07-05-2005, 04:31 AM
Ted:

Looking forward to some pictures & details !

I've been looking at VC diameters of 1950s Fisher, University, & Magnavox horn tweeters:
Both the University horn & 'Sphericon' (lower right) tweeters had 0.75" Voice Coils,
while the others were 1" - all are phenolic material

Marty, first my apologies for the late response.

Now have been able to take some pics so here they are.

Firstly a side view of the WE 597A

Secondly a pic of the diaphragm. As I mentioned earlier the voice coil has become detached. The surround of the diaphragm appears to be flat.

Thirdly the detached voice coil

Regards
Ted

aust-ted
07-05-2005, 04:37 AM
Here are some more pics

Firstly the voice coil terminal block

Secondly the model plate

Thirdly the horn

Forthly with horn removed

Will also post some pics of the related horn.

Regards
Ted

aust-ted
07-05-2005, 04:43 AM
Here are some pics of the woofer. As I mentioned earlier the model plate has been removed from the back.

Would appreciate any further help in identifying it .

Regards
Ted

Marty
07-05-2005, 09:25 AM
Here are some pics of the woofer. As I mentioned earlier the model plate has been removed from the back.

Would appreciate any further help in identifying it .

Regards
Ted

Thanks for photos !

What is VC Diameter of tweeter ? horn throat dia ? Mouth dia ? horn length ?
__________________________________________________ _______________

TA 4151: 120v @ .5A field supply."Low frequency unit, 'Wide Range' systems", continuous rating 15 watts. Weight 43lbs.
TA 4151A: "Same as 4151 except has improved diaphragm for more uniform frequency response".

TA 4153: 120v @ .25A field supply; "Has 'Tim-Flex' diaphragm, mounts on flat baffle". 15 watts. Weight 30 lbs
TA 4153A: "Same as 4153 except has improved diaphragm for more uniform frequency response".

So the 4151 is HEAVIER than the 4153 !
__________________________________________________ __________

Steve Schell
07-05-2005, 12:37 PM
Hi Ted, that woofer is one of the smaller size Auditorium Series drivers built by Jensen in the 1930s. It was probably supplied to ERPI (many were), and likely had a round ERPI black and silver paper label attached to the flat area on the rear of the pot. Looks to me like someone repaired the original cone at some point by adding a leather surround. These cones originally had a paper hinge.

aust-ted
07-06-2005, 05:54 AM
[QUOTE=Marty]Thanks for photos !

What is VC Diameter of tweeter ? horn throat dia ? Mouth dia ? horn length ?

Marty

As far as I can measure the VC diameter is 1",horn length about 4 3/4 inch (from where diaphragm is mounted) and horn mouth diameter 2 1/4".

I do not want to remove the diaphragm in case I damage it so I can only guess the horn throat diameter is about 3/8".

Hope that helps.

Regards
Ted

aust-ted
07-06-2005, 05:57 AM
Hi Ted, that woofer is one of the smaller size Auditorium Series drivers built by Jensen in the 1930s. It was probably supplied to ERPI (many were), and likely had a round ERPI black and silver paper label attached to the flat area on the rear of the pot. Looks to me like someone repaired the original cone at some point by adding a leather surround. These cones originally had a paper hinge.

Steve

Thanks. I am impressed with your knowledge of these vintage drivers.

Regards
Ted

Marty
07-07-2005, 09:06 AM
VC diameter is 1",horn length about 4 3/4 inch (from where diaphragm is mounted) and horn mouth diameter 2 1/4".

throat diameter is about 3/8".

Ted

Thanks, will help with driver design.

This must be the perfect supertweeter - once again Western Electric gets it so right !

spwal
12-28-2006, 10:56 AM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=001&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=110070708710&rd=1&rd=1


single W E driver just closed on ebay. i dont understand it...

Steve Schell
12-28-2006, 12:41 PM
Working 555s have been bringing around $2,500 for years now, but this one sold for a premium. I think that this is because it is a "meshback" 555W, the very first type made. The hole in the rear of the driver that vents the back side of the diaphragm was covered with a metal mesh in these, but soon after a solid plate was fitted. I'm not sure if there is any difference in performance, but the meshbacks are sought after due to their rarity.

duaneage
12-30-2006, 09:47 PM
I wonder how many old theaters have 10K worth of tweeters sitting behind the screen?

tom1356
12-31-2006, 02:04 PM
Here are some pics of the woofer. As I mentioned earlier the model plate has been removed from the back.

Would appreciate any further help in identifying it .

Regards
Ted
Just to add a little to what Steve has said...it is a Jensen M-10. You should be able to find out more about it on the web.

Phil Jeffery
03-28-2009, 07:06 PM
Hi Aust-Ted,

I know this thread is old, but it's not as old as the drivers under discussion, so.....

I have one of the ERPI/WECO/Jensen bass field coil drivers that you also have. I got this from Melbourne, and it has a rear plaque that you can see in the attached photo's. Cheeky buggers, implying this is an Australian driver! I also have a Raycophone theatre amp, so I'm happy to be getting an all Raycophone system together.

Steve Schell, if you are reading this, could you let me know your repairer here in Sydney? I have a few names; Al Daniels, Peter Keenan, Peter Stinson....but would be very interested in someone that has specialist knowledge of these older drivers. I'm getting some wacky readings when I try to measure DCR of the field coil. Thanks!

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo20/tygersmoke/speakers/DSC_2955.jpg

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo20/tygersmoke/speakers/DSC_2956.jpg

Regards,
Phil

Phil Jeffery
03-28-2009, 09:51 PM
Oh, and here's a pic of the cone with single pleat surround...

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo20/tygersmoke/speakers/DSC_2962.jpg

Steve Schell
03-29-2009, 12:13 AM
Phil, I sent you a PM. Raycophone also installed a fair amount of equipment made by Lansing Manufacturing Company of Los Angeles in the late 1930s. They sheared off the rivets of the Lansing badges and attached Raycophone badges, again assuring all that the goods were Australian made. Perhaps their descendants now manage hedge funds!

Phil Jeffery
03-29-2009, 01:51 AM
Thanks Steve,

Yeah, the Instruction and Maintenance Manual for my Raycophone Sound System refers to "the amazing new Duplex multicellular." The guff that follows pretty clearly describes Altec Lansing's 604; indeed a technical drawing labelled "Duplex Speaker Connections with Emergency Changeover", dated 1947, even shows a 604 Duplex speaker unit and N-2000-B dividing network (sans Altec reference). As far as I know the amplifier was their own however.

Regards,
Phil

herki the cat
01-29-2012, 12:24 AM
Not only was there a problem with high frequency noise and pops from the soundtrack, but the propagation delay differences from that little horn and the large wood horns is/was terrible, the audio equivalent of not having te film in sync with the sound.... The same problem occurred when the cone woofers were added...The "Wide Range" systems seem to have been a flop.Those little tweeters are very cute, however, I didn't think that they sounded much different than the 075, and the 075 was much easier to find. For as "rare" as these are supposed to be, they seem to show up on Eba about every other month.


The "little horn" 597 / 596 have a beautiful, unique sound artifact due to the diaphragm 3,000Hz FS resonance, the horn flare rate, the horn length & mouth size functions. These awesome speakers saw extremely little use because they were delicate & could not compete in the 3,000 Hz spectrum with the awesome 555W drivers in the WECO big 12 &15 model horns. ERPIE Service technicians hated these Bostic Tweeters. They cut them loose & just left them back stage to gather dust. I acquired a number of these when no one could have cared less 40 years ago.

The main problem in the 1930's with "not having the film in sync with the sound" was due to the original "Cast-Iron Encased" WECO Telephone-Grade Audio Transformers used in Theater Amplifiers resulting in very poor phase shift properties. This problem surfaced in Tap Dance scene foot work "out-of-sync with the tap dance shoe clicks." ERPIE/Altec Lansing solved this problem around 1941 with introduction of new their "20 to 20,000 Hz" Transformer Amplifiers. herki[quote/]

JohnK
01-30-2012, 10:16 AM
The only thing "awesome" about those drivers is the fact that anybody would actually pay good money for them. The 555 is horrible sounding, and attributing the the phase differences
to transformers is absurd.

herki the cat
01-30-2012, 09:16 PM
;The only thing "awesome" about those drivers is the fact that anybody would actually pay good money for them...Attributing the the phase differences to transformers is absurd... and the 555 is horrible sounding.


THE FIRST ISSUE: ___I Invite you to read John K. Hilliard's history regarding Amplifier phase shift; Courtesy 2000 Don Mc Rigtche based in part on a 1980 interview by John Eargle, @ Lansing Heritage library.

In 1933, in MGM's sound department, Hilliard's first task was a systematic review and redesign of all recording amplifiers. The review was intended to address the issue of phase shift in the recording circuit. This shift was in the order of 1500 degreeswhich significantly distorted speech. The solution was to use transformers with very high self inductance and relatively large coupling capacities. Transformers with these capabilities were developed by E.B. Harrison of the Lansing Manufacturing Company and this became the original connection to James B. Lansing.

The first full-length talking picture, "The Jazz Singer," had been released the year before and there was a mad rush by all studios to develop sound motion pictures. At United Artists Studios, Hilliard was placed in charge of the recording operations for UA's first sound picture. He was responsible for all aspects of recording, monitoring and sound editing. Western Electric supplied most of the equipment used in the recording process, but they had no experience in its application (http://www.audioheritage.org/html/people/hilliard.htm#).

THE SECOND ISSUE:__"The WECO Hardware"__ In the original 1930's WECO "Vita Phone" Theaters, the 555 driver was used on the type 13, dedicated-Bass Horn in the larger theaters, and the type 12 & 15 "snail" horns with excellent results up to 7,500 Hz with the drive rolled off above 6,000 Hz, which became standard practice according to the " Academe of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences" to preclude film noise.

In Hamlets scattered around the country, there were thousands of small 800 to 1,000 seat theaters with only one or two WECO type 12 horns; each horn was equipped with either one or two 555's parallel-driven by a WECO type 46-C Power Amplifier rated at only Two Watts output from a pair of WECO "205-D" vacuum tubes. There were at least five antique cast-iron clad audio transformers in this chain including a type 49-A film sound pre-amplifier ahead of the 46-C.

You can't get mad at a 555. Think about it!

In the very begining there was a "three cabinet system" consisting of a type 41-A pre amplifier ahead of a type 42 A push-pull 205-D Tube, 2 watt power amplifier, followed by type 43 A, 10 watt push-pull WECO 242-C Tube power amplier stage. This system cost $30,000 in 1930; WECO hardware & ERPIE/Altec Service Co., support was available only on a lease basis.

For small theaters, a type 41 A Pre-Amplifier cabinet plus a two watt type 42-A power amplifer cabinet was extrmely expensive, compared to the simple type 46-C Ampilier @ $10,000. In 1950, I watched a Philadelphia "Theater up-grade" dumpster loading event of a 200 Watt WECO Type 10 power amplifier with 8-B & 9-A preamplifiers , and a single, type 12 horn equipped with qty of nine 555-W compression drivers, on a mulTi-head throat.


John K. Hilliard
John K. Hilliard was one of the most accomplished acoustical engineers of the past century.... Hilliard was born in 1901 at Wyndmere, North Dakota. He received a B.S. in physics at Hamlin University in St. Paul Minnesota in 1925 and a B.S.E.E. at the University of Minnesota.

http://www.audioheritage.org/images/altec/photos/people/hilliard.jpg
and Courtesy Todd White (http://nleinternet.net/alteclansingunofficial/index.html)

herki the cat
02-06-2012, 08:38 PM
Amplifier phase shift: Courtesy 2000 Don Mc Rigtche based in part on a 1980 interview by John Eargle, @ Lansing Heritage library.

In 1933, in MGM's sound department, John K. Hilliard's first task was a systematic review and redesign of all recording amplifiers. The review was intended to address the issue of phase shift in the recording circuit. This shift was in the order of 1500 degreeswhich significantly distorted speech. The solution was to use transformers with very high self inductance and relatively large coupling capacities. Transformers with these capabilities were developed by E.B. Harrison of the Lansing Manufacturing Company and this became the original connection to James B. Lansing.

The first full-length talking picture, "The Jazz Singer," had been released the year before and there was a mad rush by all studios to develop sound motion pictures. At United Artists Studios, Hilliard was placed in charge of the recording operations for UA's first sound picture. He was responsible for all aspects of recording, monitoring and sound editing. Western Electric supplied most of the equipment used in the recording process, but they had no experience in its application (http://www.audioheritage.org/html/people/hilliard.htm#).

tomt
03-25-2012, 04:30 PM
the chinese copy -

http://i893.photobucket.com/albums/ac134/audiovoice1/LM_597A.jpg





the japanese copy -




http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachments/multi-way/273386d1332527030-western-electric-1928-how-far-have-we-come-last-100-years-gip-597-640pp.jpg