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Jakob
06-10-2005, 05:25 PM
I'm thinking of building a pair of 4430-clones with a 2"- and 15"-driver, to use together with either a bass horn or an 18" woofer below maybe 80 Hz. There is so many drivers to choose from, I don't know where to begin.
2226 and 2445, could those be a start?

B.R!

Mr. Widget
06-10-2005, 06:18 PM
I'm thinking of building a pair of 4430-clones with a 2"- and 15"-driver...2226 and 2445, could those be a start?
I guess I am missing the 4430 connection. To my mind the key ingredients that make the 4430 a unique system are the use of a woofer that has a remarkably wide useful frequency response range and crossing it over to a 90 X 90 CD horn where it also has a 90 X 90 dispersion pattern. In the early literature JBL also professed to having the acoustic centers positioned for time alignment, but I don't buy that... especially when they never changed the baffle depth when they substituted the HF drivers in later versions which effectively changed the time alignment... but what ever. It is still a popular design.

Now, I think you can build a system with a 2226 and 2445, add a sub, the right horn and depending on your HF requirements possibly add a tweeter and come up with a superior system to the 4430... but it wouldn't be a 4430.

Widget

Zilch
06-10-2005, 06:18 PM
As Mr. Widget suggests, I'd say 2226 and 2445 would be a significant departure from the fundamentals of 4430 design, and would not qualify as "clone."

If you want 4430, you gotta stick with the 4430 program, which can be accomplished. Plan on building at least a portion of the N3134 crossover, too, tho.

Also, you haven't mentioned what horn you're proposing to use with a 2" driver. 2360A?

NOW we're talkin'! :bouncy:

[I'm tryin' 2346 next....]

Jakob
06-11-2005, 07:45 AM
Thank You for Your replies and excuse my bad english, it's probably worse than my bad swedish. Clone is a wrong picked word since I don't necessarily want an exact copy of the 4430. (sorry!!) I was more thinking in the terms of the driver configuration: a compression driver and a 15" driver with a wide usable frequency response.

Since I will use this system together with some kind of subwoofer, my main interest in the 15" driver is good midbass and midrange. For the UHF I have a pair of 2405's if I feel the need.
My problem is the amount of drivers.:biting: I will never get the chance to see less compare them all. So I thought I would rely on this forums members wast experience.;)

Should I use a 1" driver with f.e. the 2344 horn,
or shold I go for a 2" driver with a 2360A horn. (Dispersion is not critical)What do You loose or gain depending on the size of the driver?
My only experience in this area is with the 2416H-1 with a 2342 horn. To me it sounded a bit harsch and I want something I can use as low as maybe 800hz or lower.

Regarding the 15" driver I think the 2226 will do everything I want, and more.

I do appreciate all the help I can get. Big or small everything counts!

Thanks!!!

GordonW
06-11-2005, 08:56 AM
The 2445 is a far better driver than the 2416... it should definitely fit your goal of "less harsh". Much smoother response. Of course, that's generally the case with all the JBL 2" throat drivers, compared to the 1" throat units.

Of course, the catch is that the 2" drivers generally don't go quite as high on the top end as the 1" drivers. This is why, on systems like the S8 and such, JBL used a supertweeter, such as a 2402 or 2405. It's really the way to go, above 10KHz. However, with a 2445 and its titanium diaphragm, you may be able to incorporate a "shelving network" (ie, a cap and resistor in parallel, to increase the response starting at about 12KHz and higher, at the expense of a little loss in efficiency below 10kHz, which should be quite tolerable), then you might get the 2445 to perform well, by itself, on the highs...

If you're only going to take the 15"/horn system down to 80 Hz (ie, cross over to the subs there), you don't need big bass-handling out of the 15" driver... you might be better off using a lighter-cone 15", such as maybe a K140/K145 or LE15, (or maybe even a 130A/2220) instead of the 2226. Chances are, you can get a bit better mid-band efficiency (better match to the horn driver, which means less padding of the horn and supertweeter, which is always better) and probably a bit better behaviour up to the 800 Hz crossover point. Others may disagree, and there may be other compelling logic to go ahead and use a 2226, but just from a fundamental specs standpoint, the lighter-cone drivers would seem to be just the thing.

Of course, if you think you ever might use the system without the subwoofer (just the cabinets by themselves), then the 2226 would be quite optimal. Easy to get good output down to 40 Hz...

Regards,
Gordon.

Mr. Widget
06-11-2005, 10:15 AM
I agree with Gordon's recommendations.

Assuming you don't have any drivers... I'd go with the the K145 and 2441 augmented by the 2405 up top and the 2245 down below. As I type this I'm thinking.... "hey I should try that!" I would use a 2397 "smith" horn, but the 2360A would probably be nice to... just a bit large for my taste.

Widget

steveh
06-11-2005, 03:31 PM
Widget,Interesting lineup of drivers. What would you suggest with regards to crossovers?

JBLnsince1959
06-11-2005, 04:00 PM
best sounding 4430 clone is a.....4430

Mr. Widget
06-11-2005, 11:14 PM
Widget,Interesting lineup of drivers. What would you suggest with regards to crossovers?

For maximum resolution I'd definitely quad amp them. At the economical end of the scale I'd use the Ashly 4001... at the other extreme I'd go with a DEQX or one of Ian's concoctions ala the work he is doing with Ken Pachkowsky for Ken's quad amped Westlakes.

Widget

Robh3606
06-12-2005, 08:47 AM
Well looking at all the sugestions, this is fun, I have another. I quad amp my active set-up and it make's things very easy to change out and modify. This way you can swap drivers until you find the ones you feel match up the best. I like a fast clean sound. My drivers are Le-14 as subs, E-145, 2123, 2416 with 2344 Horn. To me that was the driver combo that worked the best. May not be yours. I have tried 2035's which actualy go a bit lower than a 2226 and found it wanting more low end. To 40Hz its fine below it needs help. You just don't get the weight that a 2235 will give you. If you wanted to keep it with a 1' driver and wanted a close to the 4430 drop a 10" 2122,2123 in the mix. That pushes the crossover up to 1.5K and the 1" are smoother run that way. You could also go for a pair of 2234's like the 4435 and use that as you LF drivers. I seriously doubt you would want or need subs with that set-up. That will keep things easier, eliminate a crossover point, and still give you a great low end and lower midrange. Drop in a midrange driver and try a 2" on top. I keep going back to a cone midrange because the clarity and power handling is outstanding and it keeps the lower midrange out of any compresiion driver so the excursions are minimzed. As the other end you can add a number of tweeters up high like a 2405 if the need be. If you run the 2344 and use the JBL compensation it does a good job without a tweeter.


Rob:)

Jakob
06-12-2005, 04:56 PM
Thank You all for your input!
I've used a 2110 as a mid from 200hz (6dB slope) crossing it to a 2416H at about 1200hz and adding a 2405 at approx. 12khz. The 2110 only being 8" made it difficult for it to keep up with the subs. Other than that it sounded fine (except the harschness...) Maybe a 10" driver would be a lot better, but I feel that if I'm going to experiment with the subs crossover point some day and it drops to maybe 60 Hz, then I would be safer with a 15" driver with some real bas and midbass power. What do you think? I understand Your point regarding the cone transducer taking care of all of the midrange, but this could be made with a 15" driver too or? Help me out Rob.

The K145 and 2441, If I chose especially those drivers, where would I put the crossover point? Is the 2441 much alike the 2440; 2" throat with an Alu-membrane? (I've heard that the titanium drivers often seem to sound more harsch, than the Alu ones. Is this true, or is it depending on other factors like age and so on?)

GordonW: How high in frequency would You use these lighter cone transducers opposed to the 2226?

Once again, thank You for your valuable help. I would be lost in this djungle with out You! :D

yggdrasil
06-12-2005, 05:07 PM
Maybe a 10" driver would be a lot better, but I feel that if I'm going to experiment with the subs crossover point some day and it drops to maybe 60 Hz, then I would be safer with a 15" driver with some real bas and midbass power. What do you think?

The K145 and 2441, If I chose especially those drivers, where would I put the crossover point?
You could also look at the 12" 2202.

Crossover point is also dependingn on which horn you intend to use.

Mr. Widget
06-13-2005, 02:18 AM
The K145 and 2441, If I chose especially those drivers, where would I put the crossover point? Is the 2441 much alike the 2440; 2" throat with an Alu-membrane? (I've heard that the titanium drivers often seem to sound more harsch, than the Alu ones. Is this true, or is it depending on other factors like age and so on?)

The K145 to 2441 crossover frequency is almost entirely horn dependent as Johnny said.

The 2441 is identical to the 2440 (375) driver with a different diaphragm. It is aluminum but it has a diamond surround which helps to even out the response and extend it a bit.

I feel that the aluminum 2441 diaphragm is best, but this is an area for debate. Some people prefer the original 2440 (375) diaphragm, and others prefer the 2445 Ti diaphragm.

Widget

Jakob
08-07-2005, 04:27 PM
So, I got my hands on a pair of 2441 drivers (with 2445 dias in, I think...:( ) When it comes to horns I'm thinking 2382A.

That leaves only the woofers, and there I'm still confused. A single 15 inch and a dividing frequency of maybe 850 Hz, or how about a d'appolito configuration with two 2202's per side with the horn in the middle and a higher dividing point, maybe 1200Hz? I still think I'm most into the first alternative and that leaves me with the hard work to find suitable drivers. I got the following recomended: E-145, K-145, 150-4H, 2227. The first trio is very hard to get. Any other suggestions?

regards: Jakob

yggdrasil
08-07-2005, 06:19 PM
Now I only have the parameters for the 2227, E145 and K145 at hand, but it seems to me you will need a sub. Apart from that they should all be great.

Jakob
08-09-2005, 05:05 AM
Yes, I'm planning to use them with either one 18" per side, or my K25H basshorns.

You are using 2202's as mids right? And You are dividing them at 200-300 hz downwards? Do You know how low You can use them and keep the response linear?

Have You got your smith's up and running yet? I'd love to see some pictures!

yggdrasil
08-09-2005, 05:30 AM
According to this: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2202.pdf they are +-2dB from 120Hz. Mine are crossed over at 230Hzk, playing up to 1200Hz.

The smith horns are up and running, but due to a minor disagreement with my wife I had to make place for them inside the boxes very quickly. They are just mocked in, looking like shit.

In order to make her happy the focus is on finishing restoration of a pair of small Sovereigns for the living room. The DIY's will then be moved to the boys room. :D . Since we still have summer here all speaker projects are more or less put on ice.

Mr. Widget
08-09-2005, 10:24 AM
According to this: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2202.pdf they are +-2dB from 120Hz. Mine are crossed over at 230Hzk, playing up to 1200Hz.

From my experience with the 2202A I think that 120Hz number is a bit optimistic. I wouldn't count on them below about 200Hz... of course how (type and slope) you crossover the woofer below can affect that.


Widget

JBLnsince1959
08-09-2005, 10:28 AM
From my experience with the 2202A I think that 120Hz number is a bit optimistic. I wouldn't count on them below about 200Hz... of course how (type and slope) you crossover the woofer below can affect that.


Widget

I would agree completely....