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View Full Version : Help me pick a sub for my rock band!



thevott
05-21-2005, 07:27 AM
Hi everyone, My bandmates and I are putting a PA together. We are trying to make it potent yet portable. As we have a 7-piece horn-rock band there is alot of sound to deal with. Currently we are using a pair of Mackie self-powered "Eon-oid" monitors. They are lightweight, reliable, and sound good but only go down to like 100 Hz or so.
We would like to add is a sub woofer. Of course some of the guys want to get a powered Mackie sub woofer, but I said- "hold on--I think we can get some far superior used JBL subs for equal or less money".
My question is:
What JBL product(s) (used or new) is compact yet will provide smooth low frequency down to 40Hz or so. We would like to ultimatelly have a single powered unit that will fit in the Tahoe along with the Mackies, console, Etc. yet will be able to grow with the system--that is accomodate a large-format system when we play a larger venue.
Thanks, I really appriciate the collective expertise of this great forum!

Check out the band at:
http://33rdstreetband.com/

Also, check out my Hartsfield at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50597&item=5776346846&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

JuniorJBL
05-21-2005, 08:41 AM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=47095&item=7323508166&rd=1

Small and portable:D

thevott
05-21-2005, 01:31 PM
That's a cute little cube. Wish it had an amplifier in it--we're all getting too old to carry amp racks around anymore (I suppose ya gotta move the amp one way or the other whether its in the rack or speaker enclosure).

hector.murray
05-21-2005, 02:05 PM
Are you looking to buy or build? What are your wattage requirements? Are you looking to fill a bar or a stadium?
The JBL Professional enclosure guide shows a pair of 2225s in an 8 Cu ft cabinet that fits your needs to a tee.
If your handy with a saw, 2225s can be had cheap, a sheet of plywood is $20, handles are $5 apiece, cab corners are about 85 cents and the 4" ports are made from carpet tube and can usually be had for free from a carpet store. If you go deluxe, add wheels to it for another $40 and then choose your amp. If you wire them in series then the cab will handle 500 watts down to 40 Hz.

JBL Dog
05-21-2005, 03:26 PM
That's a cute little cube. Wish it had an amplifier in it--we're all getting too old to carry amp racks around anymore (I suppose ya gotta move the amp one way or the other whether its in the rack or speaker enclosure).

Here ya go:

http://www.jblpro.com/mpro/PDF/MP418SP.pdf

Don't own one, but the DJ's and bands in town that have used them give it high marks. I believe they're loaded with 2241's.

thevott
05-23-2005, 02:04 PM
Thanks for the info. These are not that small but look killer and are just a coupl of hours away:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7324529220

Zilch
05-23-2005, 02:16 PM
Indeed.... :thmbsup:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5925

Note: That "cute little cube" SR4718X is about the same volume (8 cu.ft). Build one (or two) and put the 2242H's in them for now....

See also: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5882

boputnam
05-23-2005, 02:46 PM
We would like to ultimatelly have a single powered unit... Well, that's why I stayed outa this. Are you now looking for a sub that you would power with an external (rack) amp? I'm confused...

I woulda suggested this - http://www.jblpro.com/srx700/SRX700_Flash_Presentation/JBL.SRX718S.pdf

About 8 ft3, superb performance, suitably costly but getting a bit large for the rear of a Tahoe!!

azcrawl
05-23-2005, 04:30 PM
:blah:
...hey all. I'm a new member...Brand New! I happened here while surfing for a manual for my 4628B's. Never found a manual per se, but did get the spec PDF. I play music for a living using sequenced backing tracks and usually a front male/female. It has fallen to me to put together a system for small/med rooms, and I was/am about to buy some G2 Eon 15's or MackieSRM450's or possibly Samson DB500a's. It occurred to me to pull out my 3-way Cabarets [idle for years] and give a listen. After close scrutiny, they both sound the same, so I guess all components are in as good a shape as a 20+ year old Cabaret would be - boxes in very good shape/all connections working - Hi Freq Level adjustments working well etc. To look at them you could believe they were only a few years old and cared for, but as I bought them used, I don't have a clue what they sounded like new...bringing me to the point… I've had 'em 8 years, only putting 2-300 hours light duty use on 'em - they never sounded exceptional, though decent [through a 31 band] but I now wonder if there is any way in *ell that a rework/rebuild of components/crossover/cabs could make them sound close to the afore-mentioned 2- ways. I do have an active 3-way X-over Crown/Haflers and EV 1/18 Sub to mix in. As you can tell, I probably know enough about sound reinforcement to thoroughly confuse myself - I just don't have enough experience with different systems to answer my own questions.

I was also somewhat reluctant to post to the forums [mostly intimidation after reading 4 hours of 4628B threads – you guys rock!] but after PM’ing to Zilch [innocent bystander with 4628Bs] I’m following his advice to post [not hijack!] to this thread.

I guess its apples and oranges to ask them to compete with newer powered systems, but I'm after a great sound [#1 priority], and it seemed reasoable to at least try to make use of what I already have [even if its only to supplement one of the powered choices on larger/outdoor jobs]. I do like the paper mid, and strong mids/lower mids are evident [= happy dance for Vocalists].

I hope its allright to quote Zilch: “With those 2404H tweeters and cone midranges in there, they'll kick the ass of ANY two-way system - You'll want to EQ them for each room you use 'em in, though”, and he added the necessity of a sub/s. I’m here hoping to prove all of that!

Understand, I’ve never run an RTA curve, built a cabinet, changed a crossover, slept with two women at onc…ooops!...well I guess I’m hoping you will be gentle…and talk down to me PLEASE!!! I’ll save add’l questions for another post.

thanks for the time,

pelly3s
05-23-2005, 04:43 PM
if you want a self powered sub then i can honestly say for the money you cant beat the Mackie. The yorkville 700 is nice too actually better than the mackie. JBL really only has the JRX 118SP which doesnt cut it and the MP 418 which is nice but still not the Mackie 18. I keep hoping that they will mount a power amp into the SRX 718 which is so nice and really light. Sorry guys I just dont think JBL has it in this category, now for a nonpowered sub JBL obviously has a lot that will be great.

Zilch
05-23-2005, 05:08 PM
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Cabaret%20Series/4628B.pdf

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/4628%20Network.pdf

Does your crossover (DBX?) have an option to sum both channels into mono for a single sub? Looks like you can also use it at 800 Hz to cross to the mid/high of the 4628B's as icing, assuming you have enough amps and the desire to haul them around for tri-amping.

From the schematic, looks like E145 and 2118H are running full range (2118H above "nominal" 800 Hz), anyway.

I think you need an RTA to get this right. You can't balance and EQ for different venues by ear....

boputnam
05-23-2005, 07:04 PM
I just dont think JBL has it in this category, now for a nonpowered sub JBL obviously has a lot that will be great. Bingo. Set, point and match, sir! :yes:

Zilch
05-23-2005, 10:36 PM
Bo: How about azcrawl's tri-amping 4628B's with EV 18" sub?

Izzat gonna play better'n self-powered EONoid two-ways?

azcrawl
05-24-2005, 02:52 AM
[QUOTE=Zilch]
Does your crossover (DBX?) have an option to sum both channels into mono for a single sub?

Yes, the DBX Project1 223 can sum mono, unfortunately the unit is only 2-way stereo, and 3-way mono, and I intend to run stereo so I may try to borrow a unit to tri-amp with - heck, I need a third amp too...although I've got a 125 watt receiver if I can't secure another amp easily.

I would ask also, is there a tutorial/guide/reference to approach evaluating the 4628Bs Crossover? Again this is somewhat new territory for me and I would like to be sure they are working properly if thats a real consideration. I do have a meter, and over the years have tracked down and replaced power transistors and op-amps when I was lucky enough to discern voltage anomalys - don't have or know how to use a 'scope but I'm probably battin' .700 at fixing my own mista...er...gear.

boputnam
05-24-2005, 07:48 AM
Bo: How about azcrawl's tri-amping 4628B's with EV 18" sub?

Izzat gonna play better'n self-powered EONoid two-ways? I would expect so, but that wasn't the question - the TS was originally seeking ... "We would like to ultimatelly have a single powered unit..." subwoofer.

I'll leave this to you guys. :dont-know:

JuniorJBL
05-24-2005, 08:33 AM
Thanks for the info. These are not that small but look killer and are just a coupl of hours away:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7324529220


And so do others on this forum.... and they kick a_s:applaud:
They are somewhat big:D

Boputnum:
I woulda suggested this - http://www.jblpro.com/srx700/SRX700...JBL.SRX718S.pdf

I did not know the model but these are lighter than the others and powered:bouncy:

Bo is your man for this type of stuff "Wisdom Knowledge Awwww!"

Zilch
05-24-2005, 09:50 AM
I did not know the model but these are lighter than the others and powered:bouncy: Lighter, perhaps, but SRX sub is not powered. Here's a direct link to the data sheet (long pdf download):

http://www.jblpro.com/srx700/PDF/JBL.SRX718S.pdf



I would ask also, is there a tutorial/guide/reference to approach evaluating the 4628Bs Crossover?Nope. You're into the territory of a technician, there, though you could easily tell if everything's working by looking at an RTA curve. Might be worth a trip to your local JBL Pro service center to reassure yourself on that. Location is on the JBL Pro website. I don't expect they'd charge much to check them out for you.

I'd say, if all of the drivers are playing, chances are the crossovers are fine. They're made totally of passive components, resistors, capacitors, and coils, and there's not much to go wrong with them under the operating conditions you have described.

Since your DBX is only two way, and sums to mono, use it to biamp the sub with the 4628's. There's not much more to be gained triamping, which is why I called it "icing." You should be good to go with this simpler scheme. Again, get an RTA so you can EQ properly. $300 will get you a Behringer 24/96 UltraCurve Pro and the mic at Guitar Center, and you'll have autoEQ to boot....

JuniorJBL
05-24-2005, 10:05 AM
[QUOTE=Zilch]Lighter, perhaps, but SRX sub is not powered. Here's a direct link to the data sheet (long pdf download):

http://www.jblpro.com/srx700/PDF/JBL.SRX718S.pdf


QUOTE]

My Baaaaaaaaaad:slink:

I was thinking of the little box with the 2241 w/crown power:)

Zilch
05-24-2005, 10:56 AM
I was thinking of the little box with the 2241 w/crown power:)They seem to make a different model every other week. Hard to keep 'em straight, is all.

Some of the most interesting ones they don't make anymore, like the Triple Chamber Bandpass ones.

Still hopin' somebody'll come up with the Tech Note on those: Vol.1 #19, "Sub Bass Systems Using Triple Chamber Bandpass (TCB) Technology."

[I KNOW somebody's got it out there.... :p ]

57BELAIRE
05-24-2005, 01:02 PM
if you want a self powered sub then i can honestly say for the money you cant beat the Mackie. The yorkville 700 is nice too actually better than the mackie. JBL really only has the JRX 118SP which doesnt cut it and the MP 418 which is nice but still not the Mackie 18. I keep hoping that they will mount a power amp into the SRX 718 which is so nice and really light. Sorry guys I just dont think JBL has it in this category, now for a nonpowered sub JBL obviously has a lot that will be great.

I'll have to agree here....you'll be hard-pressed to find anything to beat those self-powered Mackie subs (the one's with that nifty purple pilot light) for performance and compatability with your current setup.

I'm very particular about my bass' house mix and was very pleased with what the soundman( O'Hara's Las Olas) was able to do through the Mackie's. The low B string was felt as much as heard and blended well with my stage mix.

They're pricey, but worth it. I think.
:rockon1:

azcrawl
05-24-2005, 06:22 PM
You should be good to go with this simpler scheme. Again, get an RTA so you can EQ properly. $300 will get you a Behringer 24/96 UltraCurve Pro and the mic at Guitar Center, and you'll have autoEQ to boot....[/QUOTE]

I'm on the RTA and will let you know[with puzzling questions no doubt]
...I thank you sir

boputnam
05-24-2005, 07:37 PM
...get an RTA so you can EQ properly. $300 will get you a Behringer 24/96 UltraCurve Pro and the mic at Guitar Center, and you'll have autoEQ to boot.... With great trepidation, I urge you not "autoEQ" anything, unless you've no chance to set the system to the room's acoustics. "autoEQ" can be very non-subtly overdone, and if you listen, you will hear the digital character of the sound - a character that is not warm and not overly desireable. I'm guessing your genre would be more revelaing of this than would harder rock. But, I admitedly speak from the position on a FOH EQ slave...