250Ti Advice sought

[Audiokarma]

Regarding this pair of 250Ti:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5884

I’m seeking some advice here. These are only about an hour drive from me, so in that respect, it would be a rare opportunity for a local pick up. I’m perfectly content with my current speaker combination in my main system. I run KEF 104/2 along with an NHT SW3P Subwoofer. I’ve been through quite a few speakers and have to say that to my ears, the 104/2 is the best sounding speakers I’ve owned, so far. To me, the only minor shortfall is low bass extension but fortunately, I've found that the NHT allows a nearly seamless integration (at least within my own personal listening room and acoustics). Besides, the 104/2's seem so otherwise exceptionally well-balanced, I've been willing to live without the lowest octaves. For reference, I’ve owned 3 pairs of Maggies, including 2.6R, Dahlquist DQ-10 & 20's, ADS L-1530 and 1290's, Pinnacle CGT, NHT 2.5i, Polk SDA-1C, ESS Heil AMT CE Monitors, and have spent a fair amount of time listening to a friends vintage Vandersteen 4's. I’ve also owned several Klipsch Heritage series including K-horns, Belles and Cornwalls.

My only experience so far with JBL has been with the Century series, L-36 and on the top end vintage Olympus and Sovereign S8R’s. I’m very curious to know how happy I might be with the 250Ti. I’d love to do an A/B with my current set-up but not sure if I can swing that. So my only choice may be just to take the plunge. Before I do that, I'd like some feedback.

I'm also juggling trying to work out a local deal on some L150A's to restore for my vintage 70's system.

I guess the main question I have is whether the additional investment for the 250Ti's would represent a significant improvement over my current KEF/NHT set up.

I’ve read the other threads on these and the Stereophile review posted here before. I gather that many of you have experience with other quality systems besides JBL and so I’d certainly appreciate any perspectives or advice you might have to offer. Thanks for your time and thoughts, Kevin

[JBLnsince1959]

Hi Kevin:


I'll recommend packing up your favorite CD's, jump in the car and listen for yourself before doing anything . Everybody's different as to what they like, so you may or may not like the sound. The most you would be out is a little gas and an evening. :)

Good Luck

[4313B]

Exactly!

There's just no way anyone here can tell you what you'll prefer to listen to.


I suppose we could flame you for mentioning KEF though. :flamed:

:p

[Audiokarma]

I suppose we could flame you for mentioning KEF though. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/flamed.gif

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/tongue.gif

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/duck.gif yikes, excuse me...... http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/sulkoff.gif

Hi Giskard, Yeah, I guess I took a big chance there opening myself up as I cautiously (but sometimes clumsily) negotiate these sacred halls. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/wink.gif

[4313B]

:rotfl:

Yeah, they're sacred all right... :p

[Audiokarma]

Hi Kevin:


I'll recommend packing up your favorite CD's, jump in the car and listen for yourself before doing anything . Everybody's different as to what they like, so you may or may not like the sound. The most you would be out is a little gas and an evening. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif

Good Luck

Yeah, I could show up with my favorite reference CD's and his favorite beverage. I sure would like to hear those puppies. Even if I didn't get them myself, I could help put out the good word. Besides, it's an awesome drive this time of year.

I pm'd the guy yesterday, but so far, no response. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/frown.gif

[JBLnsince1959]

I pm'd the guy yesterday, but so far, no response. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/frown.gif
Bummer.....



Besides, it's an awesome drive this time of year.



Yes, take time to "smell the roses" and take a break from reality.

:hmm: and as far as the KEF thingy, wellll.. :scold: , I'll let go..... THIS TIME!! :D ( I won't tell the dog about this, she's not so forgiving :D )

[Audiokarma]

( I won't tell the dog about this, she's not so forgiving :D )

Thanks, doesn't look like I'd want to be on her bad side! Good doggy, good doggy. :biting:

[Titanium Dome]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/duck.gif yikes, excuse me...... http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/sulkoff.gif

Hi Giskard, Yeah, I guess I took a big chance there opening myself up as I cautiously (but sometimes clumsily) negotiate these sacred halls. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/wink.gif


Thay say that acknowledgement is the first step to recovery. Now, let's all go to the :beach: !


Hi Kevin:


I'll recommend packing up your favorite CD's, jump in the car and listen for yourself before doing anything . Everybody's different as to what they like, so you may or may not like the sound. The most you would be out is a little gas and an evening.

Good Luck

I'd recommend you jump in the truck (or van) and drive over with some of your own music, perhaps even taking your own player, pre/pro, and amp. Then if you like, do a BIN on the spot and bring the lovely twins home.

[JBLnsince1959]

I'd recommend you jump in the truck (or van) and drive over with some of your own music, perhaps even taking your own player, pre/pro, and amp. Then if you like, do a BIN on the spot and bring the lovely twins home.

Now THAT'S a plan... :thmbsup:

[Audiokarma]

Now, let's all go to the :beach: !


That sounds like the plan. Well, if I still lived in Newport, I'd say meet me at Mutt Lynch's and we could discuss it over a frosty one while we see just how old the local talent makes us feel. Ahhh, the memories.

[DMMD]

Go get 'em ACE!

:applaud:

[Audiokarma]

Well, I'm not ready quite yet to bail on the "not to be mentioned, aforementioned speakers". OK, I just got back from the local FD and picked up a surplus flame retardant suit....so bring it on! LOL

So look, since I've already so indelicately and politically incorrectly stepped in it, may I be so bold as to ask: Are there any current 250ti owners who have kept them in favor of something else, or conversely who have replaced them with another JBL system or, (one thousand pardons), some other "not to be mentioned" brand? How about anyone who simply has heard them, but but passed or who wasn't able to get them for whatever reason, too much $, etc.?

[JBLnsince1959]

Hi Kevin:


I'll recommend packing up your favorite CD's, jump in the car and listen for yourself before doing anything . Everybody's different as to what they like, so you may or may not like the sound. The most you would be out is a little gas and an evening. :)

Good Luck

Please read the above again.... S L O W L Y.... (it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or likes, shit, I still like to listen to my C-35's every now and then) :D

[JBLnsince1959]

seriously tho, I know where you are coming from.... the 250's are very, very good speakers and some will love them and keep them forever, some won't.

good luck

[Audiokarma]

seriously tho, I know where you are coming from.... the 250's are very, very good speakers and some will love them and keep them forever, some won't.

good luck

There are certain key characteristics that one would hope to see in any high quality speaker. That said, it's been my experience that most every speaker has it's strengths and compromises, by nature. However, I also know the subjective nature of this issue and certainly recognize that it's definitely a matter of personal preference. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/blah.gif http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/blah.gif

Hey good news....I just heard back and may have a chance to check them out! Will keep you posted.

[jblnut]

As one of the current 250ti's owners around here, I can pretty much guarantee that you wouldn't be disappointed with these. Some have referred to the sound as "polite" or taken another way, it's a speaker that really doesn't do anything wrong. They really want a large room and ideally you want to sit at least 10' (more like 15-18) back from them. They need a good 200 watts or so of clean power to sound their best (especially if you like to feel your bass) but they are not terribly fussy with room placement.

So far most of my audiophile (and non) friends have left singing their praises. For my longtime tube/Klipsch buddy to rave about them (here no less), they had to really be something special.

In two words - they are. Take the drive, bring some recordings you are very famliar with (maybe even your amp/CD player too) and make an afternoon of it. Even if you don't leave with the speakers, hopefully you'll get to hear what the fuss is all about.

jblnut

[mike]

One thing to keep in mind about the 250Ti's is that they were a major departure from the traditional JBL sound. They were designed to be a no-compromise system that would satisfy those who favored speakers like the B&W 801, upper end KEF's, the larger Thiel's, certain electrostats, etc. They are extremeley transparent and revealing. They have usable bass extension down to about 30Hz and seemingly unlimited dynamics. Their imaging and soundstaging abilities are excellent as well. Overall I would say they are a less compromising design than the KEF's. From my experience they don't require so much a large power amp but a quality power amp with a lot of low end control. They are actually very efficient compared to the above mentioned competion. As with all really high end speakers, set up is critical with these. The construction and finish is beautiful. I don't think you could go wrong at any reasonable price. There is an excellent review of these in a 1985 issue of Audio Magazine's "Auricle" column.

Mike

[Audiokarma]

As one of the current 250ti's owners around here, I can pretty much guarantee that you wouldn't be disappointed with these. Some have referred to the sound as "polite" or taken another way, it's a speaker that really doesn't do anything wrong. They really want a large room and ideally you want to sit at least 10' (more like 15-18) back from them. They need a good 200 watts or so of clean power to sound their best (especially if you like to feel your bass) but they are not terribly fussy with room placement.

So far most of my audiophile (and non) friends have left singing their praises. For my longtime tube/Klipsch buddy to rave about them (here no less), they had to really be something special.

In two words - they are. Take the drive, bring some recordings you are very famliar with (maybe even your amp/CD player too) and make an afternoon of it. Even if you don't leave with the speakers, hopefully you'll get to hear what the fuss is all about.

jblnut

Thanks 'nut, that's exactly the type of comments I was looking for. I do have the power at 200 wpc so that's good to know. I'm kicking around a local purchase for another set up rated at 400 wpc. Might be a good match for these. My main concern is space. Not sure if I currently have the breathing room for these. My listening room is medium in size...about 14x20 or so with system arranged on long wall due mostly to limited room placement options. On the plus side, the acoustics are fairly good, but I'm right at 10 feet max from listening position now. I like your description of sonics since that is how I would also describe the character of my "unmentionables". ;) I'm probably dating myself, but I'm also partial to teak.

I've got a tentative meeting set up for this weekend! :bouncy: Whether I get them or not, I'm really stoked to get this rare opportunity to give these legends a serious listen.

[Audiokarma]

One thing to keep in mind about the 250Ti's is that they were a major departure from the traditional JBL sound. They were designed to be a no-compromise system that would satisfy those who favored speakers like the B&W 801, upper end KEF's, the larger Thiel's, certain electrostats, etc. They are extremeley transparent and revealing. They have usable bass extension down to about 30Hz and seemingly unlimited dynamics. Their imaging and soundstaging abilities are excellent as well. Overall I would say they are a less compromising design than the KEF's. From my experience they don't require so much a large power amp but a quality power amp with a lot of low end control. They are actually very efficient compared to the above mentioned competion. As with all really high end speakers, set up is critical with these. The construction and finish is beautiful. I don't think you could go wrong at any reasonable price. There is an excellent review of these in a 1985 issue of Audio Magazine's "Auricle" column.

Mike

Thanks Mike, I appreciate your perspective. The seller sent me more pics and the build quality looks exceptional. They are really easy on the eyes. In terms of rated efficiency, surprisingly, mine are actually spec'd at 92dB vs. 90dB for the 250Ti. That's one of the aspects I really like. They sound very dynamic even at moderate listening levels. I've got 200 wpc with good headroom and damping so I'm guessing it wouldn't be an issue. My last speakers were only 87dB and had no problems. Thanks again.

[porschedpm]

You've certainly got a rare opportunity here. I mean, how often does the chance come along to audition a pair of one of JBL's best within an hour's drive of you? And from an LH member. I don't know how big your unmentionable speakers are but any chance you can cart them over with you to do an A/B comparison. I'm interested to hear your impressions of the 250ti's.

[Audiokarma]

You've certainly got a rare opportunity here. I mean, how often does the chance come along to audition a pair of one of JBL's best within an hour's drive of you? And from an LH member. I don't know how big your unmentionable speakers are but any chance you can cart them over with you to do an A/B comparison. I'm interested to hear your impressions of the 250ti's.

That's not a bad idea....perhaps I'll check and see if he (or more likely, his wife) is a good enough sport to go along with that. BTW, he mentioned he has an MC-2300 in the basement if I feel like giving him a hand to haul it up. Could be an interesting combo.

[Titanium Dome]

So look, since I've already so indelicately and politically incorrectly stepped in it, may I be so bold as to ask: Are there any current 250ti owners who have kept them in favor of something else, or conversely who have replaced them with another JBL system or, (one thousand pardons), some other "not to be mentioned" brand? How about anyone who simply has heard them, but but passed or who wasn't able to get them for whatever reason, too much $, etc.?


I don't quite fit this category, but close enough to give an opinion. :blah:

I've auditioned a few pairs: L250, 250Ti, 250Ti Jubilee, each one better than the last. These are very nice speakers, clearly one of the high points of JBL speaker design, a beautiful testament to JBL craftsmanship, a tour de force effort by Greg Timbers and crew, and probably the line that bridges the consumer group's past to its present. A used pair in fine condition at less than $2000 is a super buy.

Sure there are speakers at five or eight times the price that are better in ways--the Revel Ultima Salons come to mind at $17k ea.--but those speakers are not even two times better overall, and even deficient in some respects.

I've compared these to Sonus Faber Cremonas at $9k a pair. These are wonderful speakers with superb craftsmanship, but I prefer the sound of the 250Ti. I've compared to MartinLogan Summits ($10-15k ea. depending on options) with their superb low end and astonishing high end, but :wtf: what is up with that transition between lows and highs? Yikes. 250ti is a better choice.

Well then, how about the Vienna Acoustics Mahler, only $10k a pair? Honestly, my JBL L7s are a similar design with better execution. They were about $2200 a pair in 1995.

Well then, why don't I own a pair of 250tis? Two words: Performance Series; and two letters: K2. IMO the JBL Performance Series betters the 250Ti in most ways, though not in cabinet finish and in crossovers. But the drivers are better, the design is an evolutionary improvement, and the Ti, the Ti! :bouncy: A complete stack is $3100 (retail--always get them for less) and is equivalent to one 250Ti 4-way tower. But that EOS Waveguide Ti tweeter and 4" Ti midrange, with the Ti alloy 8" woofer, plus the LE14H-3 sub--mama mia, that's a spicy meatball.

As for the K2, well I just don't have that kind of budget for seven of 'em. (That's $87,500 for the set.) Yet.

[Titanium Dome]

As for the K2, well I just don't have that kind of budget for seven of 'em. (That's $87,500 for the set.) Yet.


Or the room, or the amps, or the... :o:

[Audiokarma]

Or the room, or the amps, or the... :o:

Thanks Dome. Ah yes, the ever present law of diminishing marginal returns. Actually, since I consider myself a sensible enthusiast/audiophile, (ie, of limited means), this is one of my favorite principles. I frequently use it to rationalize my audio decisions. I personally enjoy the challenge of attaining the maximum level of performance for the least amount of money. If circumstances were different, then perhaps this would have less importance for me. Then maybe I'd be able to enjoy the bragging rights that go with how much spent per foot on cables or the inherent snob appeal of more exotic manufacturers. :)

[Audiokarma]

Or the room, or the amps, or the... :o:

BTW, I finally got around earlier to reading your thread on your Performance Series and saw your pics. Those drivers are really gorgeous. I think I saw somewhere that someone speculated on how that Ti mid might sound in the 250Ti. Hmmmm....

[Michael Smith]

Dear AudioKarma
I have been following your thread with great interest and I have come to the conclusion that you all are winding me up (global conspiracy theory alive and well here) Kef,Maggies,ESSs' D'qsts de de dar.
You have got to be joking these are like the British Airforce "All brylcream and no balls'' and you got off scott free from the scribes,I'm still scratching my head on that one!Shame on you boys
Please do yourself a huge favour and go and buy them post haste,play them with the covers off and keep plenty of oil up to the cabinets. They are Alluring Atriculate,Beguilling and drop dead Gorgeous to boot.
If my little outburst tips you over the edge, remember the noble art of Bequest it's a wonderful gesture.
It's time,Go get em

Regards
Michael
PS Drive carefully wouldn't want to see the 250s' or you get hurt

[4313B]

BTW, I finally got around earlier to reading your thread on your Performance Series and saw your pics. Those drivers are really gorgeous. I think I saw somewhere that someone speculated on how that Ti mid might sound in the 250Ti. Hmmmm....It (904Ti) isn't designed for the 250Ti at all. As the designer of both systems would say - "Won't work".

Buy the Performance Series instead if you want that mid.

[Audiokarma]

Dear AudioKarma
I have been following your thread with great interest and I have come to the conclusion that you all are winding me up (global conspiracy theory alive and well here) Kef,Maggies,ESSs' D'qsts de de dar.
You have got to be joking these are like the British Airforce "All brylcream and no balls'' and you got off scott free from the scribes,I'm still scratching my head on that one!Shame on you boys
Please do yourself a huge favour and go and buy them post haste,play them with the covers off and keep plenty of oil up to the cabinets. They are Alluring Atriculate,Beguilling and drop dead Gorgeous to boot.
If my little outburst tips you over the edge, remember the noble art of Bequest it's a wonderful gesture.
It's time,Go get em

Regards
Michael

PS Drive carefully wouldn't want to see the 250s' or you get hurt

Gday, Michael and thanks for your thoughts. It's great to see such a noble and impassioned argument. Fortunately, I take no offense as I do not consider myself to be a chauvinist when it comes to speakers. My own audio odyssey has led me to realize that each speaker design and manufacturer has its own merits. That's the beauty of it. Much of it is a matter of personal preference. That said, I really shouldn't pay any attention to someone from a country that still quaintly uses the vestigial "u" in favour. Besides, as a member of the Commonwealth, don't you feel that you owe a little more loyalty to King and Country? :p

:duel:

Let me digress with an analogy. As a former owner of the S8R system, I can personally attest to the merits of a sheer unbridled testosterone thrill ride. Let's describe the presentation as similar to Schwarzenegger in Terminator 2. On the other hand, I'd describe the "unmentionable" more akin to Sean Connery in Thunderball. AAnold definitely wins with brute strength, but Sean wins with that subtle combination of subdued machismo/danger and debonair flair. Both are appealing on their own terms. In all fairness, I wouldn't expect the 250Ti to necessarily fit in either category, but since we are good-naturedly dealing in stereotypes, the analogy seems reasonable. :007:

Now as a Fosters swilling, croc-taming, He-man type that you likely are, I can certainly understand your preferences in speaker design. Now do me a favor and go throw another shrimp on the barbie. And remember, with Brylcream, just a little dab 'l do ya. :screwy:

:cheers: mate, Kevin

Thanks, BTW, Hwy 200 can definitely be treacherous at night what with all the Bambi's darting out unexpedectly. That's why I'll be making the drive Saturday morning. The directions lead me to believe I will likely need GPS to find it. If you never hear back from me again, you'll know I got lost in Montana.

[John]

Well if you see the North Dakota state line you will know you have gone too far and will have to retrace your steps :p

[Audiokarma]

Well if you see the North Dakota state line you will know you have gone too far and will have to retrace your steps :p

Well, hopefully my odometer will clue me in long before I put on 450 more miles than my targeted destination. They don't call it Big Sky Country for nothing! Be more likely I'll get lost on the backside of the Coeur d'Alene Mountains. Actually, that wouldn't be such a bad thing.

[John]

Yes that country is GODS Country. Blue skys, clean air and I hear the fishing is good:applaud:

[Audiokarma]

Dear AudioKarma
I have been following your thread with great interest and I have come to the conclusion that you all are winding me up (global conspiracy theory alive and well here) Kef,Maggies,ESSs' D'qsts de de dar.
You have got to be joking these are like the British Airforce "All brylcream and no balls'' and you got off scott free from the scribes,I'm still scratching my head on that one!Shame on you boys
Please do yourself a huge favour and go and buy them post haste,play them with the covers off and keep plenty of oil up to the cabinets. They are Alluring Atriculate,Beguilling and drop dead Gorgeous to boot.
If my little outburst tips you over the edge, remember the noble art of Bequest it's a wonderful gesture.
It's time,Go get em

Regards
Michael
PS Drive carefully wouldn't want to see the 250s' or you get hurt

Thanks again Michael,

All kidding aside, I do appreciate your comments. I'm really looking forward to hearing and seeing them in person. We'll see what happens. Will keep you posted.

Regards,

Kevin

[pmakres1]

Dear AudioKarma
I have been following your thread with great interest and I have come to the conclusion that you all are winding me up (global conspiracy theory alive and well here) Kef,Maggies,ESSs' D'qsts de de dar.
You have got to be joking these are like the British Airforce "All brylcream and no balls'' and you got off scott free from the scribes,I'm still scratching my head on that one!Shame on you boys
Please do yourself a huge favour and go and buy them post haste,play them with the covers off and keep plenty of oil up to the cabinets. They are Alluring Atriculate,Beguilling and drop dead Gorgeous to boot.
If my little outburst tips you over the edge, remember the noble art of Bequest it's a wonderful gesture.
It's time,Go get em

Regards
Michael
PS Drive carefully wouldn't want to see the 250s' or you get hurt

I can't resist this thread any more! I have to admit I'm always moved when I see a nice pair of these...their appearance alone is very alluring. I've never had the pleasure of hearing the 250ti's but I did listen to the L250 when it came out and I liked those. Be sure to let us know how they sound when you get 'em home!

Best regards,

Peter