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Guido
05-05-2005, 03:43 AM
Hello Forum Members. Now the WAF thingie hit me too :(

Due to space restrictions and WAF relatet stuff I'm forced to make a decision.

As you might know I currently own original 4343Bs, 4425 clones, 4313B clones plus soon a double 2203H based sub and all the Parts for 4435s.
The 4435 or 4343s where meant for the rather big (50sqm) living room of my new house. BUT NO WAY!!! Wifey says 4435 never, 4343 maybe :(

So I'm thinking of selling the 4343s. BUT.... If I really do this I need something to compensate as if not I would regret it the rest of my life.
So I'm thinkin of buying a nice black piano finished 250ti instead as there WAF factor is high:D . The Classic series or preferable the Jubilee as they already have the biased networks. This will save me from network building.

What do you guys think? Should I really do THAT ???

PS: Of course I would still build the 4435 :bouncy: for my personal JBL room.

Don Mascali
05-05-2005, 04:52 AM
Many times it is easier to replace the wife than a nice pair of vintage JBLs.:D

ngccglp
05-05-2005, 04:54 AM
I say bring your wife out for a nice romantic dinner and maybe a gift. And during dinner, casually slip in the "sentimental value of the 4343s".:D

Its not like you are buying them, you already owned the 4343s.

Maron Horonzakz
05-05-2005, 05:42 AM
It,s going to cost him more than one dinner. He will pay & pay. It would be better to find or make a better speaker system more attractive to the surroundings. But keeping the speaker components he likes within.

Earl K
05-05-2005, 07:00 AM
Hi Guido

- Sell the 4343(s) and get some 250 whatevers. Keep the peace so you can win the bigger battle .
- Personally, I think I'd prefer the 044ti tweeter variants / but that's likely just my over-exposed Forum "conditioning" speaking out.

- At worst this trade-off , is just another step along the JBL path of audio enlightenment, with this particular step having the wifes' sanction.

- No point articulating all the "best-of" situations. ( Too many ).

- While listening to your newly acquired 250(s) you can start designing a 4-way that embraces the design aesthetics that you'll be looking at on a day-to-day basis. This would be "design by stealth" ( if you want to take this next step & if you feel a need to ever listen to compresson drivers again ) .

:cheers:

Steve Gonzales
05-05-2005, 09:01 AM
Both are great speakers, I would definately have to do an extensive listing to ANY replacement choice to hear if I could compromise due to WAF. I would say that it would be an easy choice, IF, you said you didn't already enjoy the sound of the 4343's. Either way, sounds like you'll wind-up with some sweet speakers:D

porschedpm
05-05-2005, 09:49 AM
Before I bought my 4343's, I showed my wife pictures of both the 250Ti's and the 4343's. She said she preferred the 4343's because she could put more pictures and knick-knacks on top of them. Plus the "look" of the 250Ti's was a little to modern for her. So I went with 4343's and have been very pleased with them. Now I'm trying to figure out how I can sneak in a pair of 250Ti's for the family room without her noticing. I've thought about starting with 18Ti's and then gradually change them out for 120Ti's, then 240Ti's, then the 250Ti's.

Guido
05-05-2005, 10:03 AM
I wouldn't look any further if I had a pair of those. The wife would be escorted out the door if she even suggested they wouldn't work out! I'm dead serious!
Audiobeer

This post from another thread brought me back on track!

I'll veener my 4343 in american Walnut, build grilles with the original cloth from Steve and thats it, PERIOD!
No Spaeker can be more beautiful than a 4343 with veener and original blue grills :D

Guido
05-05-2005, 10:04 AM
Now I'm trying to figure out how I can sneak in a pair of 250Ti's for the family room without her noticing.

:rotfl:

jblnut
05-05-2005, 10:06 AM
I've thought about starting with 18Ti's and then gradually change them out for 120Ti's, then 240Ti's, then the 250Ti's.

Something tells me that first swap is going to be noticed, as will the last....

:D


jblnut

jblnut
05-05-2005, 10:17 AM
I'd sure appreciate it if those of you who have heard both the 250ti and the large studio 4-ways (like a 4343) could comment on the differences/similarities. The chances of me getting to hear one of the "big boys" like 4333, 4343 or 4435 are fairly remote.

I gotta start saving up for that music studio/practice room in the basement :) .


jblnut

Guido
05-05-2005, 11:09 AM
I'm starting to think about 4343 AND 250 ti now :crying:

You guys drive me crazy. Maybe your just the wrong crowd to discuss SELLING JBL speakers. :hmm:

Mr. Widget
05-05-2005, 11:39 AM
Giskard, you know what?
I'm starting to think about 4343 AND 250 ti now :crying:

You guys drive me crazy. Maybe your just the wrong crowd to discuss SELLING JBL speakers. :hmm:

Interesting that you should pick those two speakers... of the hundreds (many dozens at least) of JBL designs out there these two seem to be among the most popular to members of this Forum.

If I were going to go JBL direct radiator it would be the 250Ti with one of Giskard's whacky battery powered networks. If I were going with the 43XX series I would agree with Giskard about the 4345, but I'd up the ante and drop in a 2441. I realize it won't fit in a stock 4345, but since you probably will never find a factory pair building them custom should be easily done to accommodate the bigger driver. (Sorry Todd, distortion or no, they do sound better.)

If along those lines the WAF issue reigns supreme, I would build them as a 10" three-way and stick the 2245 in a wall or near by furniture.

Widget

norealtalent
05-05-2005, 05:01 PM
Good choice Guido!
I was fortunate enough to have 250ti's as my first pair of JBL's, still have them due to WAF(that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!) Also been fortunate enough to have at least 1 pair of almost all the L series and all the 43's except the 4350. I've had 5 different pair of 4343's, even a pair in the original boxes with the grilles still wrappd in factory plastic, they're all gone bye bye. I learned of them after my 2nd pair of L300's. I LOVE the horn and slot of the L300 as well as the fat, stout, powerful stance. It reminds me of the Carrol Shelby 427 AC Cobra, a snake poised to strike. Well my first pair bit me, hard, but they just aren't the 4 way of the 250ti's. Then, the ti's don't have a horn, if you ain't got horns, fill in the blank. I began to think that a cross of the 2 would be the ultimate. That's how I discovered the 4343's. I got my first pair and loved them, at first. As time went on, I could not tone the horn down enough to really enjoy them. I tried all kinds of xover mods but that didn't do. I concluded the difference must be in the horn length it self and tried a pair of H92's just sitting on top of the cabs since they obviously wouldn't fit inside. That was a BIG help but not enough. I couldn't keep such a rarity that had to be modified to suit my needs so I sold them. I built my own 4 way using the longer horn and components based on the 4343/4350. I've done a lot of different mods and am still making changes, but now I've only got a little money into my main speakers and somebody else gets to enjoy the factory 43's. The ti's are wonderful. They look incredible and they make the wife happy. They don't sound too bad either but for me, no horns-no horns. If you want to reproduce a horn sound, isn't it logical that a horn does it best?http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/bouncy.gif Thanks for listening.

jblnut
05-05-2005, 05:09 PM
If you want to reproduce a horn sound, isn't it logical that a horn does it best?http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/bouncy.gif Thanks for listening.

I've not heard some of the big studio models like the 4343 or 4430/4435. But so far the best reproduction of sax and trumpet I've yet experienced in a home stereo came from the XPL line. That titanium midrange is spectacular at reproducing brass instruments without the drawbacks of a horn. I'll admit my bias is towards direct radiating speakers so that probably plays a part in this.

Which reminds me that any discussion of the ultimate JBL 4-way is incomplete without mention of the XPL200. Wish there were more in circulation :( .

jblnut

Valentin
05-05-2005, 05:12 PM
get a pair of TI10K and a nice Sub TiK cosmeticaly nice and more acurate than previos models

norealtalent
05-05-2005, 05:57 PM
Which reminds me that any discussion of the ultimate JBL 4-way is incomplete without mention of the XPL200....

jblnut[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, I have not yet had the pleasure. Yet being the operative word here.

Titanium Dome
05-05-2005, 07:05 PM
Which reminds me that any discussion of the ultimate JBL 4-way is incomplete without mention of the XPL200....

jblnut

Unfortunately, I have not yet had the pleasure. Yet being the operative word here.

After that get a Performance Series PT800/PS1400 stack for the beautiful LE14H-3, 108TI, 104TI, and EOS Waveguide 1" TI tweeter for the four-way experience. :thmbsup:

Steve Gonzales
05-05-2005, 08:26 PM
Good choice Guido!
I was fortunate enough to have 250ti's as my first pair of JBL's, still have them due to WAF(that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!) Also been fortunate enough to have at least 1 pair of almost all the L series and all the 43's except the 4350. I've had 5 different pair of 4343's, even a pair in the original boxes with the grilles still wrappd in factory plastic, they're all gone bye bye. I learned of them after my 2nd pair of L300's. I LOVE the horn and slot of the L300 as well as the fat, stout, powerful stance. It reminds me of the Carrol Shelby 427 AC Cobra, a snake poised to strike. Well my first pair bit me, hard, but they just aren't the 4 way of the 250ti's. Then, the ti's don't have a horn, if you ain't got horns, fill in the blank. I began to think that a cross of the 2 would be the ultimate. That's how I discovered the 4343's. I got my first pair and loved them, at first. As time went on, I could not tone the horn down enough to really enjoy them. I tried all kinds of xover mods but that didn't do. I concluded the difference must be in the horn length it self and tried a pair of H92's just sitting on top of the cabs since they obviously wouldn't fit inside. That was a BIG help but not enough. I couldn't keep such a rarity that had to be modified to suit my needs so I sold them. I built my own 4 way using the longer horn and components based on the 4343/4350. I've done a lot of different mods and am still making changes, but now I've only got a little money into my main speakers and somebody else gets to enjoy the factory 43's. The ti's are wonderful. They look incredible and they make the wife happy. They don't sound too bad either but for me, no horns-no horns. If you want to reproduce a horn sound, isn't it logical that a horn does it best?http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/bouncy.gif Thanks for listening. I would hug that wife of yours, SHE IS A GEM!!!
I agree about the H92 over the 91, there is a big difference to my ear too. that H92/2312 is a WONDERFUL horn!!!. I am sill amazed that, all other things being equal, the 92's extra length is the "magic" difference. Thank you for sharing that and Welcome to the LHS!, Steve G

Guido
05-06-2005, 03:34 AM
After that get a Performance Series PT800/PS1400 stack for the beautiful LE14H-3, 108TI, 104TI, and EOS Waveguide 1" TI tweeter for the four-way experience. :thmbsup:

I prefer to keep the metal in the tweeter. ;)

Guido
05-06-2005, 03:37 AM
Good choice Guido!
I was fortunate enough to have 250ti's as my first pair of JBL's, still have them due to WAF(that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!) ..............

Welcome to the forum and a big THANKS for your try to help me a bit with this decision.

Ian Mackenzie
05-06-2005, 04:30 AM
You might try the 3145 equivalent crossover and take a sneak look at the 4344 mods crossover thread.

I agree the 4343 sounds a little brittle and sterile bordering on clinical relative to the later 43 xx versions of this classic 4 way design

The brashness of the horn is completely tamed in the upgrade, although in part I feel that is due to the offset baffles and the newer diamand Dias used the in the 4345/4344. I don't find any issues with the 2307/2308, if there are I would start with an upgrade of the source and power amps.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Ian

Titanium Dome
05-06-2005, 07:34 AM
I prefer to keep the metal in the tweeter. ;)

Well, that "we" in my title is really just "me," but I was influenced by John and Yoko, so I had to stay true to their lyric.

As your mother, teacher, policeman/woman, and wife/girlfriend/significant other doubtless have tried to teach you, what you prefer and what is good for you are not the same thing. :rotfl:

Seriously, unless you've heard Ti reproducing the mids and upper bass, it's hard to imagine how wonderful it is. If you ever plan to be in LA, PM me beforehand and I'll be glad to give you a firsthand experience. Or if you only get as far as the Great Lakes, maybe a quick trip to mikebake's (or Giskard's secretive skunk works undergound bunker) will get you a listen to near-total Ti.

I'll be in Europe later this summer, but I'm not bringing my speakers with me, or we could do it then. :bouncy:

markymark
05-06-2005, 12:47 PM
Why not compromise and build them into a wall unit. I had the same argument with the wifey about my fabulous 4343's While I don't get to see the beautiful furniture the sound is still there.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3548&highlight=4343 (http://showthread.php?t=3548&highlight=4343)

If the link doesn't work the pix are at My 4343's on this site posted by me.

JBLnsince1959
05-06-2005, 12:57 PM
So Dome:

Dont be shy now, I know how reserve you are in talking about the performance series. So.. what do you really think about them? :D

Titanium Dome
05-06-2005, 03:47 PM
So Dome:

Dont be shy now, I know how reserve you are in talking about the performance series. So.. what do you really think about them? :D

Yes, it's obvious isn't it? Sorry to be such an evangelist about it, but I think three things are at work here:
1) I got tired of nonJBL people raggin' on me for having "nonaudiophile" equipment whenever I mentioned any of my JBLs, so it moved me into advocacy mode;
2) Some JBL friends love the old stuff but tend to pooh pooh the new; and
3) I was so surprised and delighted with these speakers that it set off a friggin' journey of epic proportions to actually find someplace to buy them, so maybe I have a Homer complex. :homer: Well, I meant the other Homer, you know the writer of the Iliad and Odyssey.

So I take my grandpa's advice: "Why do anything half-assed when you can do everything over the top?" :banana:

herve M
05-07-2005, 05:37 AM
I'm starting to think about 4343 AND 250 ti now :crying:

You guys drive me crazy. Maybe your just the wrong crowd to discuss SELLING JBL speakers. :hmm:


Hi Guido, price please for 4343B ?:nutz:

HerveM

arky
05-10-2005, 12:48 PM
I'd be interested in the 4343s.

Hofmannhp
05-10-2005, 01:07 PM
Hello Forum Members. Now the WAF thingie hit me too :(
Due to space restrictions and WAF relatet stuff I'm forced to make a decision.
.......Wifey says 4435 never, ......What do you guys think?

Hi Guido,

all I hope is that I'm not the "bad boy", cause she saw my 4435 during your last visit. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Next visit we will play some good music with the 4435.....maybe she will accept them after this and some Hefe-Weizen.

HP

PS: pls give Claudia my regards

pentictonklaus
05-10-2005, 02:31 PM
My wife took me under the influence of Hefe Weizen. The 4435 came as an exchange for a weekend witout me. Here's your sales pitch.

Klaus 4350, 4435

Guido
05-10-2005, 02:46 PM
Hi Guido,

all I hope is that I'm not the "bad boy", cause she saw my 4435 during your last visit. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

It was clear from the beginning ;)

But I'll end up not too bad :)

4435 will be in my personal music room downstairs.
4425 sleeping room
4313 wellness area
4406 (still searching) at the fireplace
250ti in piano black in living room. I once heard them years ago and liked them for the smooth sound combined with the JBL bass power. Now I decided these speakers plus a nice pre/mainamp combo will ease the pain of selling the 4343. I don't have them yet but are close :)
Any suggestions for the 250ti amp ????

4343 are already promised to a forum member. More details from him when he got them (I think).

Guido
05-10-2005, 02:47 PM
I'd be interested in the 4343s.

Already promised to a forum member, Sorry.

dieterj
05-11-2005, 07:58 AM
Any suggestions for the 250ti amp ????
Hello Guido,
I play my pair of 250ti with Crown Reference II and i'm very happy
with this Amp. :D

jblnut
05-11-2005, 08:17 AM
[QUOTE=Guido]Any suggestions for the 250ti amp ????

QUOTE]

I'd recommend some big, clean transistor power. You should shoot for at least 150 wpc, ideally around 300. Check the archives if you're interested in pursuing the Yamaha pro line like I did. Other good choices would include Crown, Carver, Adcom, Bryston or HK's own Citation series.

Let us know what you decide on and how they work...


jblnut

JuniorJBL
05-11-2005, 11:51 AM
This is what I use on my L250's (converted to 250 TI's and black finish).
I had a Crown K2 on them and the differance was amazing. Very open,nice sound stage and very clean and deep VLF:D .

You can find them for a minimal price on AudiogoN at about $1500.00 average. It is very HEAVY at about 85Lbs so shipping is a concern. It cost me about $90.00 from the east coast to colorado.

My 2c worth
Shane:)

norealtalent
05-11-2005, 02:32 PM
[QUOTE=Guido]It was clear from the beginning http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/wink.gif

But I'll end up not too bad http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif


Any suggestions for the 250ti amp ????

QUOTE]
300 wpc of pure Perreaux!!!!! http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/bouncy.gif

B&KMan
05-19-2005, 12:55 AM
hey hey hey...

I Have listen a 250Ti in great room connected in big M300 Krell with goertz m3 silver and big preamp and SCD1 of Sony...

OUF !!!!


But I have a chance to listem 4343 in ACCUPHASE with goertz silver M3 and SCD1 Sony


Money with out objet the 4343 and accuphase is realy realy better for my and my couple of friends who accept to build this test...

So, deal with your wife, sale the car and buy big ACCUPHASE... NEVER REGRET.... One of 5 finest cie of electronic and the Match with JBL is Absolutely PERFECT... (hey, Accuphase Is the top Japan product and japa is crazy fan JBL)

BTW Last year in COTY of Absolute sound Japan the cie who have more products of high level speakers is JBL....

and electronic is ACCUPHASE

nanana nana, hey hey , come back .... (4343 hockey tune )



1+1= 2


HIHa.....


Jean.



Personnally I just finist to little upgrade in 4343
:D

Zilch
05-19-2005, 01:26 AM
Sign on above the counter at Berkeley Blueprint:


"We don't give a whit what they do in Los Angeles...."

Guido
05-20-2005, 03:26 AM
A beautiful piano finish pair of 250ti "classic edition" is located and I'll get them in the beginning of june.

The "classic edition" seems to be a 250ti BQ Variant with 035Ti Tweeter that is golden laminated. All other components are as usual. I'll inspect the networks as soon as I have them. Anyway I'm going to bias them.

I still think about combining them with my new 2x 2203H sub which goes down to 23Hz. But this depends how they behave in my new listening room.

yoyo
05-26-2005, 05:55 AM
Any suggestions for the 250ti amp ????

Counterpoint Sa-220


The sound of tubes and power of transistor

Titanium Dome
05-26-2005, 09:43 AM
Sign on above the counter at Berkeley Blueprint:


"We don't give a whit what they do in Los Angeles...."


If that's true, then why do they have to write about it? :rotfl:

Jakob
05-27-2005, 01:38 AM
Hi!

Gratulations on Your choice of speaker. I use a h/k Citation 22 (2x200W, 120A) for my 250 ti's. It goes perfect with the JBL's but I could use a couple of hundred watts more. I don't know how loud You play, but I tend to reach the limit of the citation sometimes. I'm too afraid to overdrive it and risk damaging the speakers, but even driven very hard, the amp sounds clean,tight and very good! I have had mine since '95 and there has never been any problem.

Good luck!

b.r. Jakob

Guido
05-27-2005, 03:34 AM
Hi Jakob,

at the moment I have several Amps to try. As I only get the 250ti next week the tests need to wait.

1) Blaupunkt MX70 (Basically a Sansui Amp) RMS 2x220W, 8 Ohms
2) Harman HK870 (i love this Amp) RMS 2x110W (80A), 8 Ohms
3) Maybe two HK870, each bridged

Later on I will try the Vincent SV238 (38kg Monster).
This Beast has 2x240W (2x60W Class A!!).

DMMD
05-27-2005, 08:33 AM
If that's true, then why do they have to write about it? :rotfl:

... Because they are from Berkeley! You ever met somebody from Berkeley that didn't have an opinion about something? :applaud:

Zilch
05-27-2005, 11:28 AM
If that's true, then why do they have to write about it? :rotfl:To minimize the whingeing, of course.

We don't have TIME for it in the People's Republic.

[We're busy with GLOBAL issues here.... :D ]

Titanium Dome
05-27-2005, 01:38 PM
Hi Jakob,

at the moment I have several Amps to try. As I only get the 250ti next week the tests need to wait.

1) Blaupunkt MX70 (Basically a Sansui Amp) RMS 2x220W, 8 Ohms
2) Harman HK870 (i love this Amp) RMS 2x110W (80A), 8 Ohms
3) Maybe two HK870, each bridged

Later on I will try the Vincent SV238 (38kg Monster).
This Beast has 2x240W (2x60W Class A!!).

Hey Guido, that's a very pretty integrated amp! As much as I love the technical pedigree of a piece of equipment, I'm also a sucker for pretty things. That's definitely a pretty thing.

Mr. Widget
05-27-2005, 01:43 PM
I'm also a sucker for pretty things. That's definitely a pretty thing.

I've seen the Vincent products at a couple of trade shows now. They are indeed pretty. They are European designed and entirely built in China. They look high end, but from talking with the reps I was a bit unsure of the products. As of last January's CES they still didn't have a US importer.

Widget

Tom Loizeaux
05-27-2005, 06:37 PM
I haven't heard the JBL 250tis, so I can't comment on how they compare, but I think I'd wait until I got the 250tis in place and compared them next to the 4343s before I made a decision to replace the 4343s!
It's going to take a pretty teriffic pair of speakers to make me replace mine.
In terms of size and asthestics, I don't feel the 4343s are all that huge...and I find the untilitarian boxes a little more sensible then the off-set triangles. It seems that maybe the 250s were designed partly for a "modern" look, while the 4343s were designed with performance in mind.
Just my $.02

Tom

Robh3606
05-27-2005, 07:16 PM
Hello Tom

"I'd wait until I got the 250tis in place and compared them next to the 4343s before I made a decision to replace the 4343s!"

Yeah I agree that makes a lot of sense. I have 4344's and feel the same way. I would never let them go without a face off if I was forced to make a choice. That's a of lot speaker to replace.

Rob:)

Titanium Dome
05-27-2005, 08:25 PM
...and I find the untilitarian boxes a little more sensible then the off-set triangles. It seems that maybe the 250s were designed partly for a "modern" look, while the 4343s were designed with performance in mind.
Just my $.02

Tom

Hey Tom, the design of the 250 and 250Ti were in part a modernization, but it's important not to overlook two of the important design goals. One was to get a more effective relationship between the drivers and the baffle, and another was to make a more effective use of interior volumes for the drivers. I think irregluar cabinet geometry was another objective, but that could have been accomplished with other shapes, like the current TiK Series, for example.

The current Performance Series takes this in an evolutionary direction with its innovative IsoPowerŪ baffle, its three separate chambers (with the PT800 and PS1400 stacked), its de facto bi-amped configuration, its novel enclosure shape, etc.

The 250 was designed with performance in mind; it's just a different performance objective than the 4343.

Guido
05-28-2005, 03:19 AM
I've seen the Vincent products at a couple of trade shows now. They are indeed pretty. They are European designed and entirely built in China. They look high end, but from talking with the reps I was a bit unsure of the products. As of last January's CES they still didn't have a US importer.

Widget

Widget, I'm not one who give a lot on hifi magazine tests. But here in Germany they ALL rate the vincent products very high. ALL of them sharing the same opinion is seldom.
Anyway, I'll hear it first :)

Mr. Widget
05-28-2005, 10:47 AM
I was rating them... at both shows where I saw the Vincent line, it was just that, they were there to be seen with no product set up for auditioning. I thought it a bit odd. Also the Vincent reps didn't instill great confidence. I suppose that is why to my knowledge they are still not in our market.

I would be interested in your impressions. Is that integrated one of their solid state pieces or is it tube or a tube hybrid?

Widget

merlin
05-28-2005, 01:22 PM
Guido,

a good friend of mine runs the hybrid monos from Vincent into some large monitors. Great build, sweet sound, and plenty of clout. They really are excellent value for money but I'll be sticking with my big Mac. Now if the Vincents had great big blue meters.....

Guido
05-29-2005, 04:32 AM
I would be interested in your impressions. Is that integrated one of their solid state pieces or is it tube or a tube hybrid?
Widget

It is a solid state piece!
See the pics.

My opinion need some more time as I first have to find a dealer that gives me the possibility to try it at home. Definitely I'll post my comments.