Tinned Marine Primary Wire

[rek50]

Selecting the "Proper" wire to rewire the internals is almost like selecting the "Proper" sounding cap. The "Marine" wire is a Finely stranded tinned copper conductor, and it seems to be cheap compared to the "Exotics". Has anyone tried it? I've also thought about silicone jacketed test lead wire or the uber- stranded silicone jacket wire (Deans) used in the R/C car realm.

[Zilch]

It's all quite silly, actually. I don't believe for a minute that different wires "sound" different there.

The gauge used in some vintage JBL seems dubious, tho.

Don't think I'd be using 3' of 22 G to hook up a 2235.... :p

[Lessee. 1W into 8 Ohms is 354 mA, no?]

[porschedpm]

Here's a link to a place that sells bulk cable made by Cardas, DH Labs and Kimber Cable:

http://www.partsconnexion.com/catalog/wire.html

Also here's a link to the Parts Express page for Monster Cable:

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=155#speaker

I would lean towards using a cable specifically made for speakers before using marine type wiring. The purity of the the copper seems more controlled, some are silver plated, some are stranded in a certain patterns, all of which some audiophiles feel improve the sonic qualities. On the other hand there are also some audiophiles who feel that using common lampcord is just as good as the high dollar "exotic stuff". I've used a lot of marine wiring for running 12v power and ground in my cars and RV. It's good for that application but for speaker wire, while it will work, I find it tends to be a little too stiff for my liking due to the oil resistant sheathing. The brands listed in the above links are all designed secifically for speakers. I think you can probably find one whose price you're comfortable. JBL used Monster Cable for the internal wiring on some of its speakers, not that that's necessarily an endorsement for Monster Cable but it does suggest that JBL recognized that there was some merit to using cable specifically designed for speakers. There are purists with ears better than mine that could probably tell you the sonic qualities between the different brands above. But to me it's like telling the difference between different brands of bottled water.

[Mr. Widget]

Cool now you need to get the $650 gadget I saw from Audio Advisor or Music Direct that is meant to be used to "break in" your new wire.:)

I'm sorry, but I am very skeptical about wire at the speaker level. Within preamps I am more open to the possibilities of slight variations in cable capacitance/inductance making a difference.

I don't discount the very real possibility that you have heard differences... I too have heard unexplained "differences", (these differences/improvements are never repeatable weeks later under different circumstances) but like green markers on CD edges I think it tells us more about the power of the mind than the acuity of the ear. The "As We See It" column in this month's Stereophile (May 2005) actually goes into this phenomenon... treading lightly as to avoid pissing off a good portion of their advertisers, but really calling much of the tweak fringe into question.

Widget

[Mr. Widget]

JBL used Monster Cable for the internal wiring on some of its speakers, not that that's necessarily an endorsement for Monster Cable but it does suggest that JBL recognized that there was some merit to using cable specifically designed for speakers.

Ho Ho Ho... JBL discovered there was real value, from a marketing standpoint, in using a product so successful (through masterful advertising, distribution, and selling techniques) that they could license their name for a ball park. There is no JBL Field after all...

Widget

[Zilch]

The most I'd pay extra for would be Belden "Brilliance" audio cables to bury in the walls.

That's not internal hookup wire, tho.

I've previously speculated that the Monster deal occurred in the hotel bar at some trade show, involving no engineering whatsoever.... :p

[porschedpm]

So I'll ask the question for Rek50 since we've probably confused the hell out of him so far: Is there any benefit to rewiring the internal wires in a JBL speaker?

[johnaec]

I too have heard unexplained "differences", (these differences/improvements are never repeatable weeks later under different circumstances)A very real phenomenon I've personally noticed is a difference in my actual hearing sometimes. I don't know if it's related to amount of sleep, food, humidity, barometric pressure, temperature, or whatever, but sometimes I hear a very real difference , especially in the high end, certain times, on songs I'm very familiar with, when absolutely nothing has changed as far as electronics, speakers, or setup/layout goes... The next day everything will be back to normal.

John

[rek50]

Hold on, maybe I threw a curve ball here. By "Proper" I meant one that will get the job done. The internal OEM wires seem whimpy to me and I wanted to replace them. I can grab the Marine wire for about .10 a foot. As far as speaker wires, my ears are happy with the wire I'm using now (Home Depot THHN stranded 12awg.) I did have Monster XP, but that crap turned green. The silicone jacket idea was based on how "Nice" the jacket holds up in close proximity to soldering. But, thanks just the same for the input.:)

[Mr. Widget]

A very real phenomenon I've personally noticed is a difference in my actual hearing sometimes.
Sure... could also be the internal pressures caused by your sinuses... some days I feel I have socks stuffed in my ears, and other days the sound of the ant walking on the counter 10 feet away is disturbing.

What I was talking about though is when a friend changes a wire, a capacitor, the varnish on the cabinet... whatever and says, "...now do you hear how the xxx is better?" If he believes it strongly enough it can be infectious. I have been there and I knew there was no way in hell that placing that little puck on the speaker would make a difference... but we all heard the difference!!! There is a lot about the mind that we don't fully understand.

Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Hold on, maybe I threw a curve ball here. By "Proper" I meant one that will get the job done. The internal OEM wires seem whimpy to me and I wanted to replace them.

Now that is a different story... I typically use generic 16, 14, or 12 ga speaker wire... but I have even use Monster Cable on occasion because I needed the flexible jacket. A silicon jacket would most likely be nice and flexible.

Widget

[Zilch]

The internal OEM wires seem whimpy to me and I wanted to replace them. I can grab the Marine wire for about .10 a foot.Yup, change it. Marine wire is fine. JBL used wimpy wire. Haven't measured it, but I think it's 20 G or 22 G solid on some older ones, and like 18 G stranded on 4430's. No harm in using better wire there, but anything bigger than 16 G is probably overkill....

[scott fitlin]

Rewiring your JBL,s internally can make a difference! The older speakers generally had wimpy ga wiring, and increasing the ga will help, not nite an day, but you will notice it. As for what wire, I only recommend copper wire, of a good size! Silver is the highest conductivity, and it is measurable, BUT to my ears silver wire has a bright, edgy sound in the top octaves!

If you must have a " Designer " brand name wire, use whatever you like and can afford, but I personally feel proper gauge copper " ordinary " brands, work as well as anything else, and in some case, where a designer brand of wire DOES make a difference, I find it to NOT always be better, just different!

My personal opinion is that I can and do hear differences between brands of cable, wire and types of materials used! But I have found many expensive interconnects, and speaker wire to be irritating sounding over the long haul! This is my opinion, others swear by certain brands and types of wire, I dont!

:)

[mike]

If one were to take into account such things as lead inductance, stray capacitance, frequency range, load impedance,source impedance, wire resistance and gauge; then do the math...they could prove the obvious.

Mike

[Ian Mackenzie]

There are differences but it is mainly due the the way it loads the amp and longer runs are more critical. Try putting a mh inductor in series and then shunting a 100nf across your amp and see what happens. (don't as it may osillate but this is an extreme example)

Valve amps are notoriously sensitive to cables.

However I have heard common lamp flex and compared the 14 gauge audio grade OFC, the transients were more crisp, bass tauter and mids more focused.

Try bi wiring and see if it helps, thick cables for woofers, thinner cables for tweeters.


Ian

[rek50]

"Try bi wiring and see if it helps, thick cables for woofers, thinner cables for tweeters" That did cross my mind as in the 12 awg THHN for the woofers and 16 awg for the rest. "If you must have a " Designer " brand name wire"... NOT for me, that would clash with my jeans and flatland hillbilly sport coats (Flannel shirts to some). Thanks all.

[JBLnsince1959]

Rek50:


Ian, hit the nail on the head. This is something I have been testing for years with my 4430's. Many moons ago when I first opened up my 4430's, I saw what appeared to be about 22G copper wire coated with tin running to the speakers, "WELL", I thought, "I can do better than that!!"
So, I wired one speaker with 14G monster wire and then did a A/B test, expecting a hugh difference.....IT SUCKED!!! the untouched speaker was more defined, articulate and exact. The sound stage the monster speaker produced was "BIGGER", but at the cost of articulation. This was a real eye opener that when it comes to wires bigger is NOT better( and of course better is a subjective thing). It reminded me when I played with my D130 and E130's, since they were full range speakers I crossed them over at 4000 and 5000 just to hear what they sounded like. When crossed over at those very high values the soundstage they produced was very 3D, hugh, but at a cost of articulation. As I lower the crossover point beween the E130 and compression driver the sound stage became "smaller" but more distinct ( I quess they don't call them compression drivers for nothing)

Since then for many years I have been A/B testing all kinds of wires in blind tests with me and my friends and I have come to a few general conclusions( and I could change my mind tomorrow on any of this and these are very general):

1. Every wire, connector etc Will make a difference, BUT, different is not always better.
2. smaller wire will sound more exact, articulate. One web site that talks about this is http://www.guerrillaaudio.com/guide.html
3. Bigger wire will sound softer( more "round" if you will) or will give a bigger sound stage, but more often than not with a loss of articulation
4. the most important factor is not wires but the connections ( the less the better)
5. the more pure the wire ( 4n,5n etc) the more the sound will be exact ( like the diffence between big and small wire)

therefore here's what I do

for the speakers that will be crossed over at around 800 to 1000( and above), I use small and very pure wire ( copper or silver). On some speakers I like silver on others copper.

for the mid bass and lower midrange I use somewhat bigger wire and not as pure. somethimes I Mix two types of wires ( braided - pure not so pure)

for bass I use bigger wire still.

of course this could just be my version of stereo voodoo, so just try different wires and see what you like

good luck

[Zilch]

Factory stock 4430's are wired with 18 G stranded here, 0.042" diameter, nominal....

[JBLnsince1959]

Zilch:

I've always wondered about that. I wasn't sure if it was "stock" or someone put it in before I got em. Nice to know what's suppose to be in there. It sure sounded more accurate than the monster stuff, but then it could have been how I first hooked em up.

are the stock wires suppose to be covered with tin?

thanks

[Zilch]

Stock wires are tinned, stranded, yes. Vinyl insulation, 80° C, National Wire & Cable Corp., these....

[Ian Mackenzie]

Great link,

Oddly enough I found that 20 year old 14 gauge stranded OFC in 0.5 inch flat PVC ribbon to be as good as anything.

Perhap there is a golden ratio of the number of stands & stand gauge and the lay configuration...twisted pair, flat spaced pair..I wonder.

Ian

[JBLnsince1959]

Zilch:

thanks for the info.

[JBLnsince1959]

Ian:

wires are very strange as to what sounds good. Some days I think it depends as much on if I got "lucky" the night before as anything else

[FredEmmerich]

Informative:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks for that very informative link. I read the entire posting and found it very interesting... of course I remember people back then saying that standard Monster Cable was essentially just zip cord with a sexy magnifying jacket and if you really want to hear the benefits of "quality cables" you need to buy "the good stuff"... :bs:

Anyone that wants to prove to themselves that they really can hear the difference should do a true double blind test. Investigators in the area of subjective testing have found that if the person conducting the test is aware of the conditions that it can bias the outcome. One practical way to conduct a true double blind test would be to string 4 different sets of cables between each amplifier channel and each speaker. Listen to each pair of cables very carefully and note any differences between them. (I assume you will hear differences.) Then have a disinterested party (such as a girlfriend or wife) hook up one pair of cables leaving the others where they are so that you cannot tell which set is in use. For a true double blind scenario, they must then leave the room. Now... decide which one you are listening to. You have a 25% chance of guessing the right one just by random chance.

My premise is that when we know what we are listening to, an expensive cable for example, we do actually hear positive differences, but if we do not know what we are listening to the differences seem to fade. I starting coming to this conclusion some time ago but recent MRI studies of the brain seem to prove it out.

http://neuropsychological.blogspot.com/2004/10/neuromarketing-brand-loyalty-and-brain.html

Here is a brief excerpt.

Widget


"When researchers monitored brain scans of 67 people who were given a blind taste test of Coca-Cola and Pepsi, each soft drink lit up the brain's reward system, and the participants were evenly split as to which drink they preferred. But when the same people were told what they were drinking, activity in a different set of brain regions linked to brand loyalty overrode their original preferences. Three out of four said that they preferred Coca-Cola."

[Ian Mackenzie]

I agree that if I spent or was about to spend $800 on a cable I would want it to sound better. Amusingly often the cheaper cable is better as the very hi end cables actually bend the tonal balance being a reactive load to the amp

Perhaps a control reference cable is needed, otherwise the listener only detects difference but not what is better.

I tend to think all to often we look at specs, measurements and blurb and that influences our emotive reasoning.

Whereas science and fact should backup our perceptions.

But in any passion, what would it be without mystery and romance.

However I maintain that terminations are at least as important as the cable..this is called electron transfer resistance.

Correctly Soldering the wire in contact to a pure copper connector works or another copper wire.( the pcb of your amp is copper...funny about that!)

Most terminations are brass with a plating of tin, silver, gold or nickel. Brass / nickel has significant electron transfer resistance, the purity and quality of the plating can also signicantly effect the transfer resistance.

The better binding posts are Cu with a plating of gold or silver. Looking at the subject in greater depth, the mass of the terminal (and contact surface area) can impact on the behaviour of the signal transfer.

Ideally, signal transfer should ocurr at a single point, hence why I find a good solder joint the cheapest and best form of connection. How many of you spend $50 for more on a set of good binding posts...I didn't think so.

I put out the challenge for any member on the forums to try this, or try ProGold to clean your terminations. On another forum we ended up doing a group buy of Cardas terminations after a similar debate.

Ian

[rek50]

Good solder joint, the cheapest and best form of connection! For sure! To that end, I think a tinned conductor has a head start on the soldering process, provided it's tinned with the "Proper" material. Add dis-similiar metals into the mix and it would seem that the gold plated leads on the AudioCap Theta Caps are counterproductive. I think gold plating has it's place/function in "Friction" connections. No doubt that it's low on the corrosion factor, but a Rhodium plating might be more resistant to corrosion. :biting: :biting: Whatever gets us wired...

[JBLnsince1959]

Yes, this is a very fun topic and it is of course one of the most subjective of topics. I read and printed Roger Russell's article some years ago and I agree with most of it. However, what was not discussed is how the wires were connected. That is to me one of the most important issues and not so much the wires. While we didn't do double-blind, we did do what I consider blind test ( no one but me knew what they were listening to).

if the wires are close to being the same gauge ( and same metal) then it was almost impossible to tell one from another. also, it had to be a true A/B test with the turn of a knob. Differences were minor, but some did show up. I also used my girl friend and other people who know nothing ( in addition to my stereo friends) about this and came up with close to the same results. Wire around 16 gauge with good connections seem to give about the best over all sound to me. Still, the main thing is how good the connections are and I agree with Ian on that.

But, of course, the voodoo lover in me wants to play around and experiment. If I have fun and enjoy what I'm doing using different wires for a speaker then I will, of course with full knowlege that somewhere in all of this may be a bit of stereo voodoo. One thing I would never do tho, is to buy these $2000 wires and cords.

For me, there are differences in any change made. The question is ( for me anyway) are the changes worth it. But then I'm not an electrial engineer, nor do I know anything about electronics ( other than a few basics), so I'm pretty much brain-dead on the engineering side and just know by listening and trying things over and over ( thus the possible subjectiveness).

Botton line I guess is do what sounds look to you and maybe share our experiences.

[R Beardsley]

Those 10GA gold conntectors sure make cheap consumer stuff look like they were really expensive. I was looking into buying the "expensive" wire sets for my 4410 and 12's - until I refoamed a driver and saw the wiring inside. When I saw what JBL used, I figured "what's the point?" I see these people with 3/8" cables laid proudly around the room, and I ask myself - Is it me?

[B&KMan]

WOW!!! your track a real mystic problem and actually I have a same because I rebuild my crossover and all internal wriring on my 4343. :)

I experienced MIT reference,transparent, OCOS, Goertz, Kimber, Monster ordinary, home theater and signature reference, Cardas, Qued, rega, UltraLink, home made cable, Instrumental cable, Van den hull, and a couple of other is not to come now in my head....

just a couple of fact.

---Where you rebuilt the coil crossover, in general all people is proof to put a bigger AWG in bass section for less resistance as possible... more power and deeper extension in transient result!!! yes but why to put a lamp 18 AWG...

--- Why JBL factory cone kit utilize a flat cable in coil wire...
Flat cable is more effective, less intercale space, etc.... just 30% more power sound (yuk yuk yuk )

--- Why JBl is go in aluminum coil in tweeter ??? This is lamp coil ??? no for shure.. The alu is the fastness transmition metal, silver after and copper....
The silver is more 11 X more fast than copper at same purity...

So 4N is 99.9999 (4 decimal ( not 3)) and determine the resistance metal and the energie dissipate in cable or aleatory direction...
in this: 4N silver is better than 6 n copper...

-----Why jacket is important: the tribo-electric effect is realy important: it is around 2 to 10% distortion... (any lab is sensible at this aspect).
With out any other cosmetical look the telflon is the best best insulated...

---- Why geometry, time and phase shift in transient, power, fast, britness, is difficult to control all aspect in one cable... In this, the multi-amp is realy better aprroach because really more easy to control by restriction of wide band the complex effect in cable: one for bass, one for med, and one for high... One of the largest advantage of digital is run in dc and low voltage, so it is restreint frecquency and restreint current... aHHHH easy to control....

---- so if you sensible at all of this point it is easy to build cable with flavour.... the highest degrees of finest and flavour the higher price... Of course many cable focus on one point and build a coloration... Other is clone and fraud client... smoke and mirror. Other expose a theory but is not aplly the concept...

--- in this tread many guy put cheaper cable in speaker cable but put the highess level of caps and ultra 4N flat core coil in copper... Well it is very opposition of lamp electric approch no.. :D


the chain is mesure by the lowest strong part. !!!

the problem is isolation variable: capacitance of cable, induction, the lengh affect directly phase and high frequency, power, tribo-electrical effect, corrotion of metal by gas inside enveloppe, electromagnetic field , RF etc, fiouuu...

In general telfon is best shield, copper 6 n and 4 n silver is real high level standart lab.

If you not very familiar, maybe build a certain expertise in search in instrumental application and broadcast... In general is it a good start...

The Lucas Ranch, and many very high end Studio invest a thousand and thousand box in cable but not in smoke and mirror or beauty package...
The real quality is expense but it is possible to found in fair price depend if you look name of spec product...

Well, in this trouble water search a science fact and data for build serious point of vue not just a other opinion in the sea...

So the marine is strong jacket insulated because: many vibration on boat,
structure is steel; the conductivity is dangerous for broken and the water is high level of corrosion. The jacket is extremely good but not necessary conception for wideband speaker application...

go in instrumental and broadcast level, and better scientific approach with goods arguments...

(I hope this "point of view is feel better than other) :D

Cheer.

(I buy recently a strong reference extension cable for mic and try to put in my internal cable...) My best experience is 6N with silver tinned, with strong double insulated telflon jacket ) High pitch???? relax, maybe your configured your set-up for listen detail in bloumm set-up, so any major modification push the obligation to re-tune the set-up... Because the pitch is extremely delicate equilibrium in low and high frequency...

Jean.

[Zilch]

Nope. I ain't buyin' it.... :p

[B&KMan]

I put out the challenge for any member on the forums to try this, or try ProGold to clean your terminations. On another forum we ended up doing a group buy of Cardas terminations after a similar debate.

Ian


:applaud:

It is true.......

Look the absolutely perfection connection of BNC cable in compare to RCA. Look the quality of material, the minimise contact, thq quality od solder... the blend , tempeture, etc, Why a instrumentation type is cost exponential price ??? because all aspect of this is calculated and choose for best result...

last onth I go with my friend and is a bigger multi-cable Linn with speaker... extreme shield but is stripped for build connection... At this oint the cable mass and speakers is acordeon vibration effect... I tried a mystic experimentation. my friend is go in toilett and i put the cable fermely on back and maintain by blue tack gum... In this the tbribo-electrical effect is strongly minimize. My friend is come and re-listen the same piece.... WOW, may distortion go out and many fine details is relevant...

Proof

Take this citation of instrumental guide ( B&K) methode ANSI ans ISO for test tribo electric effect in cable...

(traduction french english) These set-up is put a dummy in one end cable and fix in center a shaker and create vibration in a pecific range and amplitude... If cable is generate too nois, it is refect!!! Each reference acc mic cable, and bnc is tested individually in this company...


:bouncy:

the sceptic is confuse???

[Zilch]

BNC is required and used in the MHz range. I can't hear that high.

Look to broadcast standard quality audio cable for guidance. It's 99.95% pure (no "N") copper, and considered good enough.

Marine wire is steel? Not what rek50 is askin' about.

OH, the BOAT! I get it. :p

[B&KMan]

BNC is required and used in the MHz range. I can't hear that high.

Look to standard broadcast quality audio cable for guidance. It's 99.95% pure (no "N") copper, and considered good enough....

Marine wire is steel?

Good is Best ???

My B&K is run 0 HZ to 25kHz not in MHz and it is BNC, of course I found bnc in dolorama and other scrap second level electronic store but the best is really higher and cost....

My point on this is the quality of concept of this plug minimal stress transfert metal, safe plug and unplug, maximise fix connection for tribo electric... and center is gold plated... yuk yuk yuk.

My highess level is tinned with silver ....Fiou,

I works on buyer for unnivertisy and many problem broadcast is come to cheap "standart broadcast" many fix problem with next level grade...

I put many informations and any aspect is confirmed by high level industry aeropsacial, instrumental, high level broadcast, studio...

Do you have feeling a 20$ mic is same as 1600 $ and connected with electrical lamp wire cable is cheap BNC ??? test probe is 2 cent copper cable ???
My friend is work on telecommunation of phone and tv on university and just clamp tool for phone is over 600 $ for perfect crimp without stress the connection cable. a tousound box for soldering optical cable, etc..

:D

the true is place under a esoteric fraud market and cheaper scrap cable grade... no ???

;)

[Zilch]

Alas, owing to ignorance, I am doomed to eternal sonic inferiority.

But I DO know a 250Ti member you might connect with. :p

[Actually, the $1600 mic uses the same $20 condenser element, I am advised....]

[aust-ted]

Hi

Was reading this thread and it raised a question related to some Belden RG142 coax I lucked onto.

Now this cable is a mil spec 50 ohm 18 AWG Solid .037" Silver-coated copper-covered steel, Plenum TFE Teflon® Insulation, two silver-coated copper braids (96% shield coverage), FEP jacket cable. It has nominal inductance of 0.067 uH/ft and capacitance of 29 pf/ft.

I am hoping to experiment with some it for interconnects etc. I understand the cable is intended for RF use.

Now B&KMan. or others, may be able to through some light onto a question which is bugging me. What is the impact of the cable having a steel core?

Initailly thought it would be a no no as a result of possible magnetic effects. However Belden seem to have gone to some trouble with its design using copper then silver over the steel and then two layers of silver/ copper braid shielding. I can only assume the steel inner core is to give the cable strength/ reliability. Is the steel used a special non magnetic type?

Regards
Ted

[B&KMan]

Well I'm not a specialist of all type of cable... but the video cable utilizing by a industry is a center core of steel for couple of reason:

--- It is more stiffness and one core not generate a triboelectric effect !!!
the tribo electric is the result of variation of impedance by shaking braid inside of jacquet... Because the cable is expose in wind and many vibration via pole. So if you build hard core one braid, copper and silver tinned, you control noise and the mix of copper and silver assume the transport and coherence of low and high fr.... of course shield is important for CB and RF , magnetic flux by electrical transport.... and jacquet is really strend.

Other hand the cable is exposed in many stress factor so steel core assume more safety in installation and life in tensile vector... the variation of diameter is not confidence path signal...

the apparatus to control the set-up is specifiquely configure for this type of cable, and the quantity of connections, and others consideration is really controled by ingeener...

Why many specialize cable in industry ???
Do you have feeling all in smoke and lamp cable is good for all ???
a 1 $ store provide the entire cable for all ????

The industry is produce a ton of specific cable because each set-up and signal is specific problem and it is not garantee to transfert one solution to other is better... in the fact probably, more worse to better...

Many specialize electrical ingeneer in according on big lab produce a set-ut standart for wide application and for realy peak application, the ingeneer team put head inside with a couple of million of $$$ to build a viable receipe...

this is not a mickey mouse aprentice magician device and please if you have not expertise of the problematique and not theorical conscient, dont play come if you are the power in your hand... :D

This is the reason of many specialize interconnect and speaker cable in market, level grade and flavour is determine what is what, the purity is cost and High level shield is cost and teflon jacquet is cost... but more highest grade...

One point on this for the sceptic. YES ton on fraud in this world...

EX: you have problem quality electrical... the industry is keep a bigger inverter and stack of complex generator electric for cancelling noise and fluctuation of fr and voltage... the inverter is keep AC setup and produce a big power DC and the inverter is re-produce the AC current. This is a top and real solution of all problem... Do you have a feeling to change this reality by a AC cord who change pitch, produce or cancel a skin effect and many other tweek effect... Of course you affect AC signal but it is a dip in this sea of trouble. And never 1000$ AC cord as value of impact inverter approach...

Of course the Ac cord is important for RF, signal path, connectic, tribo electric noise but it is possible to buy a hospital grade for many less money...
and all this aspect is controled include penetration of corrosif of biological penetration ( ;) ) more is money in wrong place...

---Yes the AC cord change the sound but you play to create a other coloration...

--- and because 10% of problem is noise come from ground contact, a isolated transfo in hospital grade is a stunning more effect in compare to same money in AC cable...

Voilà good control of any proportionnal aspect and treat each in consequence and you go in the top with efficience injection money...
:cheers:

[B&KMan]

[Actually, the $1600 mic uses the same $20 condenser element, I am advised....]

WOW !!!! :applaud: so it is same result ???

oh, BTW I have same molecular water of you in my head but I'm not same mind :D


Anyway, if you not sensible of this problematic aspect of link this thread is not change your mind... especially if you consider this aspect of science to same as a mystic religion.... ;)

I'm curious what member is agree and not in this point of view...

c'om everybody.... talk about that... dynamic forum controverse....




:)

[Zilch]

I have same molecular water of you in my head but I'm not same mind :D Yeah, well, I ain't hackin' the plugs off all the line cords to install hospital grade plugs here; neither am I purchasing an inverter to assuage my paranoia about power line conditions.

If there's a problem, I'll find and fix it. Other than that, I'm not chasing after phantom theoreticals with good time and money.

Trust me on this, now: there are NO apparent tribo-acoustic anomalies that warrant my attention here.

[I DO sometimes tap my foot on the guitar cord for rhythmic effect, tho.... :p]

[JuniorJBL]

As I have often wondered about wire in general, I have found that if you spend $1500.00 on a pair of speaker wires than as some have said you "REALLY" want to hear a difference! Why :blink: Because it was F@#*ing expensive.

So I set out to find a better alternitive. I was a victim of this whole :bash: wire thing.

One thing I have found in the sientific world is what is already known is in use now. Like twisting wire together to reject unwanted interference. Subject) CAT5 or 6. But you get other things that happen when you do this that are on the unwanted side like capacitance. Thus the PTFE jacket helps reduce this affect.

Electrical current flows on the outside of the wire so HF small AWG LF larger AWG.

That said I took some cat5e snugly twisted 4 10' sections together then bound all whites together and all colors together put spades on them and listened to them.

I then went to Home Depot bought a Woods 12AWG extension cord cut the ends off, put spades on and listened.

compared them both to my pair of Transparent Music Wave Supers and ......

not much difference. So I got an unbiased ear. Enter my wife. Blind test because this must be done.:bouncy:

The winner to her very good ear.......

The cat5e!!:applaud:

The woods cable was second by the way.:blink:

No more Transparent for me just a waste of money:banghead: !!

Again this is only my take on this subject and for me I will now enjoy more money for the important things like
More CD's and Vinal!!
Shane

[Zilch]

The winner to her very good ear.......

The cat5e!!:applaud: Did you bias it?

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5359

It's equivalent to a little bigger than 16 AWG.

[Good cheap fun. Now THAT has appeal, since I have rolls and rolls of it here.... ;) ]

[JuniorJBL]

It did go wayyyyyyy of topic:blah: .
As to the original post my 2c is use a good pure copper wire for your internal JBL wiring twisting if you like. just remember to use a positive and a negitive signal in your twisted pair. you need opposites( + -) to get the affect of twisting wires.:blink:
Shane

[JBLnsince1959]

Move it!!!????? I might not be able to find it :D

[JBLnsince1959]

By the way.... what is cat5e ?

[JuniorJBL]

Common networking cable for ethernet networks.
:D
Shane

[JBLnsince1959]

Shane:

yes, that should be good wire. thanks for the info. Quess I'll have to go and buy some.. :uhmmmm:

What I learned most from all that testing is:
1. bigger is not better
2. More expensive is not better

[Zilch]

Cat5E is the current standard telecom wiring for installation in homes. Home Depot caries it in huge rolls. It's 4 twisted pair of 24 AWG solid copper wire, with shield and "drain" wire. Article describes how to DC bias the shields and make terminated transmission line for speakers out of it.

I've never tried it, and I don't read French. :p

HUH? We've been teleported? WOW, Bo has the POWER! :D

[Maybe Bo'll tell us what HE uses, professionally, to connect stuff....]

[JuniorJBL]

Did you bias it?

]

No, I was only looking for a replacement with little added:D
Shane

[JBLnsince1959]

maybe one of our people who know Frence would be kind enough to translate for us :bouncy:

it's either watch Oprah ( and soaps... and Dr. Philp) with the lady or play with speaker stuff

[JuniorJBL]

maybe one of our people who know Frence would be kind enough to translate for us :bouncy:

play with speaker stuff:applaud: OOOOH whats next:D

[B&KMan]

Yeah, well, I ain't hackin' the plugs off all the line cords to install hospital grade plugs here; neither am I purchasing an inverter to assuage my paranoia about power line conditions.


Yes but why your consider your ac cord is too cheap, Do you shure this AC cord is not a spec grade or hospital grade ??? AHA

I not change the majority of my AC cord because it is very good, but look same cheap... It is not impressive look necessary for works good ...

:cheers:





Trust me on this, now: there are NO apparent tribo-acoustic anomalies that warrant my attention here.
[I DO sometimes tap my foot on the guitar cord for rhythmic effect, tho....


each person fix limit of nirvana... fisher price ?? radio shack, denon, mark levinson, Nagra, accuphase, Fm acoustic, each have a same principe produce tap footing felling in reproduction music...

My scientific approach permit to accurate many non apparent but listen aspect of reproduction. And it is MY ( i assume) pleasure to do in this way for more accurate reproduction, good for you and any other to do not go in this way... I respect your pleasure, but I just little deception who not realize the real fact in the sea of smoke and mirror recuperation market... Of course it is not necessary to buy a thousand box for play...

Long life to home depot and all ...
With appropriate machine it is easy to discern what is work, and effect of each. The rest is strictly personnal opignion, I'M enjoy to reader to go search in WWW the many scientific specialized web who explain each aspect of my arguments...

dogme or reality, Vannity or real work , Smoke, impostor product or finally real better improvemen...

Do not omit the difference for grade or level of precision is exponential cost... a analyser type 0 is just little better to type 1... not a ton of difference but THE difference... Who not listen difference . no difference in stardivarius violon to hamatie violon or yamaha violon... the ear is a organ is work better with exercices.

Anayway if you not pass the fence " this point is not a mystic point of view" , never you search a real and scientific response....

Copernicus: Notherless , Is turn !!!!

And I hope any reader is build a point of view based on science : in this is foward the mystic and ignorance position and clear eyes in bullshit and superstition world...



:D

[Zilch]

Copernicus: Notherless , Is turn !!!!Yeah, well, just tell us what the Hp/Cat5E article says, O.K.? :p

[We want the facts BEFORE we exercise our organs here....]

[rek50]

Well after all comments, theories, and general good reading, I'm waiting on some Sound King 16 awg speaker wire to do my internal wires as well as power the speakers. The guy who looks back at me when I'm shaving said it will sound just fine and quit fussing, it's NOT a heart valve...:)

[JBLnsince1959]

You can always use RadioShack 18-G solid core wire. It is in Stereophile's recommended components if you feel like showing off to you're friends and impressing poeple ( ha)

Ohhh..... stereophile :banghead: :barf:

[JuniorJBL]

That wire should be more than fine.:D

Remember it is only you that needs to be happy:) when all is said and done!
Shane:bouncy:

[JBLnsince1959]

seriously tho, that sounds like a good choice

[aust-ted]

B&KMan wrote in part "Well I'm not a specialist of all type of cable... but the video cable utilizing by a industry is a center core of steel for couple of reason:

--- It is more stiffness and one core not generate a triboelectric effect !!!
the tribo electric is the result of variation of impedance by shaking braid inside of jacquet... Because the cable is expose in wind and many vibration via pole. So if you build hard core one braid, copper and silver tinned, you control noise and the mix of copper and silver assume the transport and coherence of low and high fr.... of course shield is important for CB and RF , magnetic flux by electrical transport.... and jacquet is really strend.

Other hand the cable is exposed in many stress factor so steel core assume more safety in installation and life in tensile vector... the variation of diameter is not confidence path signal...

the apparatus to control the set-up is specifiquely configure for this type of cable, and the quantity of connections, and others consideration is really controled by ingeener..."

Thanks for the insights. Most interesting

On the subject of cat5E, you guys in the US have us Aussies at an advantage. There is a version of Cat5 Plenum with teflon insulation commonly used in the US in office buildings to comply with building codes. I understand it is used because of the lower flammability of teflon than the common Cat5 insulation. The building code in Australia (and probably other parts) requires the cabling to be placed in a separate shaft etc thus reducing fire risk by another means. The upshot of this is that the teflon plenum version of Cat5 is common and relatively cheap in the US but difficult to obtain here. I recommend those of you in the US track this one down.

I have been using a shielded version of Cat5 as a balanced interconnect over a distance of about 11m and it seems to work great (just using one twisted pair + the shield & drain wire).

JuniorJBL wrote in part "Electrical current flows on the outside of the wire so HF small AWG LF larger AWG."

My understanding this is not strictly correct. Would have to get my old theory books out but my understanding is that the 'skin effect' which you are alluding to here says that that as the frequency increases more of the current flows near or on the surface of the conductor. At RF frequencies the effect becomes more pronounced but at audio frequencies some current will still be flowing at the centre.

Nevertheless your conclusion is still sound. Most of the power is normally at lower frequencies so a larger cable with lower resistance is more helpful for the LFs. At the HF where power & current levels are lower I suspect single core cable is beneficial. From what I have read (and I am no expert on this) there could be some boundary effects as signal jumps between individual strands of a multicore cable. Even the crystalline structure of a cable is claimed to have an effect thus the claims for high purity copper and silver cables. One added benefit of silver is that its oxide is conductive, unlke copper.

Perhaps B&KMan could elaborate on this.

Regards
Ted

[JuniorJBL]

:blink:
Thanks Ted
I was trying to keep it simple as this was (for me) not go into all of the theroy
of why!:D

But all things said all of the above is true:blah: .

It still boils down to "Do you hear a difference or not":blink: "That is the question"

If you do not then what does it matter?

I have found the more you twist a wire, the more transparent (sound stage gets wider,deeper) the sound gets but, with that, the sound gets muddied somewhat if you twist it to much. so it would be up to the owner of the said system to decide if this is "right" for them.
Yes if you want to follow standard electrical principals then go for it.:bouncy:

I wanted to make a wire that had the best connection I could get so I found some PTFE 99.9% solid silver 18AWG twisted it together at aprox 3 twists per inch with 4 of these pairs then 2 more of the above mentioned cat5e plenum PTFE copper pairs then twisted snugly using adhesive based shrinktube every foot or so to keep it twisted and stiff.
I then used good copper spades (crimp w/hammer) to achive what I think is the best connection I could get. Adhesive based shrinktube over my connection.
My speaker wire sounds as good to me as I had expected.:applaud:

I have found that the Monster Cable Interlink 400MKII interconnect wire is of a great design. It has 2 conductors and a shield even though it come as a single ended cable it works well as a balanced cable as well. I will not go into it's design just get some and look for yourself.:D

I have replaced "ALL" of my transparent Music Wave Super Balanced cable and single ended cables with this wire with my own connectors from www.libertycable.com (http://www.libertycable.com)

I sold all of my cables for enough to buy a Sanyo Z3 projector and a Stewart 92" diag High contrast screen and build all of my cables. Thats about $3000.00 USD.

So as I have said before "What makes a person happy, Thats what you should do:spin:
My 2c worth
Shane:uhmmmm:

[B&KMan]

Perhaps B&KMan could elaborate on this.
Ted

well, I'm acoustic and not electrical ingeneer.
And it is impossible to explain completely details in thread...
I hope to


couple of fact. If you build home made you safe a ton of money !!! I actually buid a internal passif crossover and first grade material this is more 4 to 6 higher cost... in this case, Last week I approach a tecnician and charge 2K just for adapt design and build simple circuit... Who talk money asshole ...

So cable is same game... Control tribo electric phenomenon, add shield jacket, understand the RF problem , voltage and amp. (the old tube amp is run with very small cable because small amp... A krell, godzilla amp is run electrical arc for soldering and Down to 1 ohms... Of course I try transparent cable and MIT and completely kill by other significant less money cable , but it is all cable is bad ???

The interconnect is AC, and a general down to 5 volt dc but relatively high mv so no problem to adapt a DC ethernet link cable... but not perfect.. Shure no good for tonearm, or very low voltage...

shure cable link is critical post is generaly a big problem... the small cable to float in the air with -out strong stabilization is realy bad : put blue tack gum into back of unit or in top, and glue cable on this!!! Loose space and high frecency??? no this is noise !!! If you not listen the difference your system is not sufficient critical for and assume more bigger problem in other link of chain... But it is science fact...

===========
All new contact have burning, and all modification , displacement of cable stress path way inside cable so place correctly and dont touch for long time...
that is rule of crytal pur or not...


I repeat many ingeneer is build a specialize cable why you not trust in certains part a industry of broadcast, studio, and instrumental application... You probably find for reasonnable price a excellent product...

Of course less wideband , less frequency voltage and ampere, more easy to build better for cheap price !!! this is a secret of digital DC pulse o-5V that it that all, protocal input ant ouptput is strictely controled and standart so perfect match in all case...

In couple of year I build with my friend a network in office and half cable is scrap or bad connection... The reason is cheap, and the cheap crimper is not good work... The informatic and video is easy to look is the cable is good or note, but look specialized instrumental material for check good connection...

Fluke 2-3 K for portable analyse... So be carreful of syndrome of mickey mouse aprentice...

-----
This is a most interest to pass in multi amp and active crossover.. cable specialize cost less, if you go in big market, the volume rebate is put down again price so no surprise if a weird solution apprear wow so close to extreme cost cable...

quality, shield, insulation, purity, and size match with the number of brain is a certainely according to amp, voltage and lenght wideband... If you trie a home solution be shure you control a evaluate all parameter...

Yep, big cable less high frequency, long lengh , less high frequency... 3 db is critical for good ear, change drastically pitch and balance tonal... less hight more bass ??? this is a trick with balance ... swing swing...

My instrumentation material give a complete cable and spec of each. all cable is match for specific job... so easy to control problem.

Of course radio Shack sell cable... Speaker too and mic, but why you buy a great JBL because it is build in according of acoustic law. the inertia of big Everest, over 300 LBS garantee inertia in impulse driver !!! K2 Too with mass feet, decoupling, and cable gold crystal horn, wow ... it is a real garage product??? :D

By the way many person consider my original crossover to museum product and really not good...

But if you go from jukebox to a lab your discovery the expense way for just little more touch of magic...
each trace a limit and compromise and it is OK...

never obligation to put your feet in incertains territories... cable, amp, speaker, tv, all is participate in same problem.

the degree of quality is in regards of your time and study placement...

low level consummer
consummer med level
consummer hight level
Production and reproduction level
Lab level
Lab reference level
Primaire reference level...

The problem is the med and high consummer, never real technical info, internationnal norme conformity... and full propaganda... this market destroy each year a ton of music lover and finally, this same industrie blame consummer for copy, cheap compression music....

Yeah I tasted of sucking money idiophilys and is leave now a bad taste in my mounth...
But I'm keep a momment for reflexion and I go in broadcast level and discover the real world for my musical aspiration and only world is shure never bullshit is instrumental or lab grade, but now I pass my money in mic calibrator and level 0 analyser, and cable instrumental, and connector...

Oh in this way I discover Tad, Goto, Onken, and JBL :D

[Zilch]

Tell us please, B&KMan, what does this say?

http://membres.lycos.fr/jadai/cablesptt.html

Is it worth the effort of trying?

[Perhaps you'll test it....]

[aust-ted]

JuniorJBL wrote in part ""It still boils down to "Do you hear a difference or not" "That is the question"

If you do not then what does it matter?"

Shane, I could not agree more though would also like to get an idea of why. Makes it easier to move to the next level, do it in a cost effective way and to avoid the snake oil salemen.

Sounds as if you are on the right track.

Regards
Ted

[JuniorJBL]

I to love high-end Audio. and the "salesman" who most likely knows half or less about most things audio (if any are salesmen on this fourm I thank you for trying to bring balance to the force:duel: ) most likely does not enjoy the search for all things audio (and JBL) as we do on this fourm.

That said I like to add more things to my system all the time as most of us here do:D

Most of my endevours happen on AudiogoN or eBay but I also have friends at some High-end audio stores here in Denver and Salt Lake City. That was the reason I had all of that good? wire but It sure sold for a lot of money.

I will try to post some pics of the wire's I made this afternoon.
If you are not sure if it can be done try to find a cost effective way to find out. In the end it can still be very fun and rewarding.:applaud: :cheers:
Shane:blah:

[JBLnsince1959]

Ok, here it is "translated". I used AltaVista - Babel Fish Translator found at http://world.altavista.com/babelfish/tr
it works pretty good, but does a "word for word" translation and does not change the sentence stucture.

This is from the site:
http://membres.lycos.fr/jadai/cablesptt.html

To the general request, and after authorization of the author Pierre Johannet, let us reconsider this subject initially treated in the review Audiophile N°25 de Juillet/Aout 93 pennies the title "the cables, the condensers and the memory of insulators", N°27 de Décembre 93/Janvier 94 in an article entitled "to finish some with the cable" and finally N°29 de Juin /Juillet 94 comprising an article entitled "Reflexions on the musical quality of the amplifiers or the lessons of the cable"...

The history showed us that unfortunately one seems not to have finished with this topic with the great happiness thescientistic ones and other always ready gurus, realising hard cash, to help the disabled audiophile which does not know any more to which saint to dedicate the variables so much are numerous since the current sector to the part of listening. You do not leave any more berner, one sells to you, with great reinforcement marketing, lead at the ransom price in the form of pipes sprinkler as expensive as unaesthetic... the sometimes supplemented whole of magic cases containing in fact an animal circuit LRC (like that already included in your passive filters).

In fact one sells to you a filter moreover, not astonishing that that changes the sound. The majority of the cables, if it is not totality, act by compensation between the elements which they connect (what is their raison d'être). Unconsciously one will try to compensate for ("to improve") a link while playing on the cables attached to this link... or another. It is a true vicious circle. Then to return on ground, made in simple the and economic one, invest in the music and stop is delirious it: nothing can justify costs as eccentric as several thousands of franks for a few meters of copper wire (it was silver plated)... For this realization you will spend maximum 20F per meter + a little elbow grease and not expenses marketing for the packaging nor of royalties for that which proposed to us his solution full with good direction, Pierre Johannet. That it receives içi large a thank you of the audio community. This realization aims at minimizing the phenomena observed, even measured such as (inter alia): memory of insulators, effect of skin and contacts between bits, Micro Discharges of Interface (MDI).

One will thus use two cables postal and telecommunications authorities to 4 or 5 pairs (a "outward journey", a "return") per enclosure, the individual diameter of each bit being 5 with 6/10e Misters One will préfèrera the pairs armoured by a ribbon aluminium. Spacers will have then to be produced (here foams about it, one can use paperboard, wood, plastic) aiming at spacing the 2 cables of 35 mm. This last parameter proved to be fundamental. To place a spacer all 30 to 40 cm. The cable thus carried out will have to be deadened by installing with the entry (that is to say side amplifier) 2 small coils of 1µH carried out by winding 10 whorls in copper wire (diameter 15 with 20/10e) on a diameter of 20mm (to use as gauge a handle of screwdriver or handle of large brush...). One will lay out side enclosures a piece of lead intended to block the possible vibrations communicated by the HP. It can prove to be interesting to adapt the cable on its impedance, that is to say approximately 300 Ohms. One will use a resistance 2W, of préference carbon, the influence of the latter can prove to be negligible, it is to be tested with individually. One will finish the assembly by polarizing insulators by the intermediary of a pile of 9V + 2 resistances from 1 to 2 Méga-Ohms the unit connected on the drains (wire of naked shielding) of cables postal and telecommunications authorities. All precautions will have to be taken for this last assembly in order not to inject continuous 9V in your amplifier or your enclosures, the declining author any responsibility in this case. We seized the opportunity of the assembly of kit KLS6 to place the pile in the cases of the external filters and to polarize the whole of wiring, including the cables located in the enclosures. They are cables 5 pairs of data-processing network (100 base T) recovered thus free and answering schedules of conditions even more severe than those used in simple telephony

[JBLnsince1959]

Hmmmmmmm.... :hmm:

Ok, now that we've got it "into" english, can anyone understand what they are really saying?

[B&KMan]

Hmmmmmmm.... :hmm:

Ok, now that we've got it "into" english, can anyone understand what they are really saying?


YUK YUK YUK My french is excellent but my english is poor.

This guy relate a cheap but terrible efficience set-up for kill noise, rf, and skin effet and memory insulated material...

You load shield, in this, the micro field of ac current is not absorb and distort by shield material and because shield load in Dc no ac noise RF and magnetic load shield... So all problem associated in this aspect is illiminate by set up...

This is one of the most aspect who cie build a mysterical garden hose for passif control...

p.s. this guy is not responsable if you shoot dc in ac line interconnect...

So, is include a step by step instruction for build cable and active kill noise system...

Jean...

[stevem]

Well after all comments, theories, and general good reading, I'm waiting on some Sound King 16 awg speaker wire to do my internal wires as well as power the speakers. The guy who looks back at me when I'm shaving said it will sound just fine and quit fussing, it's NOT a heart valve...:)

I think it was Sound King wire I was using for my system, but the gauge may have been thicker. Is this clear jacketed wire with a rope braid that looks a lot like Monster Cable original? I had a problem with it oxidizing and turning green under the insulation (looked horrible) after a few years. If this happens, you won't be able to see it inside your speaker cabs.

My favorite speaker cable is Marshall Sound Runner OFC 10 gauge, made by Mogami. Simple, no-nonsense black PVC jacketed zip cable.

[B&KMan]

I try to corrected bad traduction word... for more your comprehension.


:D

Jean...


To the general request, and after authorization of the author Pierre Johannet, let us reconsider this subject initially treated in the review Audiophile N°25 de Juillet/Aout 93 pennies the title "the cables, the condensers and the memory of insulators", N°27 de December 93/Jannuary 94 in an article entitled "to finish some with the cable" and finally N°29 de Juin /Juillet 94 comprising an article entitled "Reflexions on the musical quality of the amplifiers or the lessons of the cable"...

The history showed us that unfortunately one seems not to have finished with this topic with the great happiness the scientistic ones and other always ready gurus, realising hard cash, to help the disabled audiophile which does not know any more to which saint to dedicate the variables so much are numerous since the current sector to the part of listening. You do not leave any more berner, one sells to you, with great reinforcement marketing, lead at the ransom price in the form of pipes sprinkler as expensive as unaesthetic... the sometimes supplemented whole of magic cases containing in fact an animal circuit LRC (like that already included in your passive filters).

In fact one sells to you a filter moreover, not astonishing that that changes the sound. The majority of the cables, if it is not totality, act by compensation between the elements which they connect (what is their of the existence). Unconsciously one will try to compensate for ("to improve") a link while playing on the cables attached to this link... or another. It is a true vicious circle. Then to return on ground, made in simple the and economic one, invest in the music and stop is delirious it: nothing can justify costs as eccentric as several thousands of $$$ for a few meters of copper wire (it was silver plated or not)... For this realization you will spend maximum 10$$ per meter + a little elbow grease and not expenses marketing for the packaging nor of royalties for that which proposed to us his solution full with good direction, Pierre Johannet. That it receives, in france, large thank you of the audio community. This realization aims at minimizing the phenomena observed, even measured such as (inter alia): memory of insulators, effect of skin and contacts between bits, Micro Discharges of Interface (MDI).

One will thus use two cables postal and telecommunications authorities to 4 or 5 pairs (a "outward journey", a "return") per enclosure, the individual diameter of each bit being 5 with 6/10e Misters One will hope the pairs armoured by a ribbon aluminium. Spacers will have then to be produced (here foams about it, one can use paperboard, wood, plastic) aiming at spacing the 2 cables of 35 mm. This last parameter proved to be fundamental. To place a spacer all 30 to 40 cm. The cable thus carried out will have to be deadened by installing with the entry (that is to say side amplifier) 2 small coils of 1µH carried out by winding 10 whorls in copper wire (diameter 15 with 20/10e) on a diameter of 20mm (to use as gauge a handle of screwdriver or handle of large brush...). One will lay out side enclosures a piece of lead intended to block the possible vibrations communicated by the HP. It can prove to be interesting to adapt the cable on its impedance, that is to say approximately 300 Ohms. One will use a resistance 2W, the best choose is carbon, the influence of the latter can prove to be negligible, it is to be tested with individually. One will finish the assembly by polarizing insulators by the intermediary of a battery of 9V + 2 resistances from 1 to 2 Méga-Ohms the unit connected on the drains (wire of naked shielding) of cables postal and telecommunications authorities. All precautions will have to be taken for this last assembly in order not to inject continuous 9V in your amplifier or your enclosures, the declining author any responsibility in this case. We seized the opportunity of the assembly of kit KLS6 to place the pile in the cases of the external filters and to polarize the whole of wiring, including the cables located in the enclosures. They are cables 5 pairs of data-processing network (100 base T) recycling material thus free and answering schedules of conditions even more severe than those used in simple telephony[/QUOTE]

[B&KMan]

I think it was Sound King wire I was using for my system, but the gauge may have been thicker. Is this clear jacketed wire with a rope braid that looks a lot like Monster Cable original? I had a problem with it oxidizing and turning green under the insulation (looked horrible) after a few years. If this happens, you won't be able to see it inside your speaker cabs.

My favorite speaker cable is Marshall Sound Runner OFC 10 gauge, made by Mogami. Simple, no-nonsense black PVC jacketed zip cable.


Yes Go
http://www.vandenhul.com/artpap/cable_faq.htm

is explain in details why your jacket oxidize the cable and why the life time is short...

Of course is promotion products but keep part of verity and drop the rest...

The PVC contains solvant and is comtamined your cable, other reason for teflon is really better jacket...

Jean.

[B&KMan]

A tribo electric question is, in general, one point who home made produce an magic kingdom effect in sound...

Look, never is perfect...

In article of PTT cable the tribo electric is not cancelled by foil of lead..

just fix cable of your speaker??? heretic move ??? the speaker is shake!!!

Yes put if you cable fix in the entire cable move with speakers... in this the cable is not spring effect in one side inertia and other big move... the spring effect is produce a constant displacment inside of braid to other braid and generate noise... So tape cable with jacket in speaker especially is the core is light ... look inside of instrumental amplifier. NO CABLE LOOSE, all link to other and maximum stabilisation and inertia cable is founded. It is not a sufficient aspect but necessary if you try a better sound...

:)

[B&KMan]

Other method to mesure and control Tribo-electric effet....

this set-up is cost over a 125.000 USD ... Of course you pay for that..

but this is world leader approach is not a bla bla bla but proof and test and mesure...

More serious work more serious and credible result.

Happy-end ???

[Zilch]

Hmmmmmmm.... :hmm:

Ok, now that we've got it "into" english, can anyone understand what they are really saying?The article describes how to make a DIY 9V biased speaker cable using Category 5e twisted pair datacom cable, perferably using the shielded variety (SCTP, "SCreened Twisted Pair") commonly used in Europe, but also available in the US (where UTP, "Unshielded Twisted Pair" is the standard).

Construction is per the diagram. The author emphasizes the importance of maintaining the 30 - 40 mm. separation of the two composite conductors using fabricated spacers, and cautions to be careful that the 9V (through 1 - 2 Meg Ohm resistors) is applied between the shields only via the drain wire and not to the conductors themselves. The 1 uH inductance coils on the input end of the cable each comprise 10 turns of #20 (?) wire wound at approximately 20 mm. diameter, and a 330 Ohm, 2 W carbon resistor terminates the cable.

Belden makes suitable datacom cable, their "Data Tuff" (industrial) and "Data Twist" types, including teflon-insulated plenum versions, if you can't find shielded Cat 5E, about $1.00/Ft in bulk.

The 8 - 24 AWG conductors sum to the equivalent of larger than 16 G stranded, without micro-conduction between the strands (see, I can make crap up, too), since they are insulated from each other in the cable. 5-pair (also availiable) would equate to 14 G wire. In researching this, I find that Belden also makes 10 G high-conductivity speaker wire for use in bi- and tri-amp installations. A fun perusal, the www.belden.com (http://www.belden.com/) website....

[JuniorJBL]

This is kinda what Synergistic and Audioquest does for there "Active cables"
Mainly video:blah:
Shane

[B&KMan]

Dude, you are drinking the Kool-Aid...

Widget

Who ?? me ???

Yeah 6n purity kool-aid... with big shaker:D



The many proof effet is details on lab procedure and control...

I not resume one wall of white paper in there....

Blind test ??? if I proof 1+1=2 and why to run a blind test anyway the sceptic is sceptic...

I write big replys and I tried to explain the problematic of part of fact and parts of fraud...

what difference if the 3, 5 or 7 harmonic is relevant in 3, 6, or 10 dB... Anybody listen the difference ??? but the noise is there.... and after expertise is easely identifiying by ear...

the lab test for cable is depend of cable and application but for vibration integrity test I send a pict in reply # 32...

------------------------
BTW why Giskard choose a goertz copper flat 4n ???, silver soldering, ultra-grade caps ??? Dc charge biais (consider by Solen to futile) ???, simplified path and control of layout for minimal interactive parts ... for connecting by magic cable lamp ??? :D

I try to consider with respect each position in this tread and try to expose my backgrounds expertise in this way, I try to put a different aspect of complex problematc cable... and try to help by tips and rule any guy who guess home solution....

But i'm not a guru or Great Master...:D

well it is time to go a better drink...

Jean.

[Mr. Widget]

Blind test ??? if I proof 1+1=2 and why to run a blind test anyway the sceptic is sceptic...


A while back I posted the why part... I don't think you can prove that 1+1=2 since we are dealing with perception and not simple measured data.

I think we all agree that only that which we hear is important... i.e. we agree that wire that is superior in the MHz range is of little importance in the realm of audio. The issue is that we can't isolate what is audible from our perception of what is audible. A double blind test is the ONLY method for a valid test.

Widget

[B&KMan]

A while back I posted the why part... I don't think you can prove that 1+1=2 since we are dealing with perception and not simple measured data.

I think we all agree that only that which we hear is important... i.e. we agree that wire that is superior in the MHz range is of little importance in the realm of audio. The issue is that we can't isolate what is audible from our perception of what is audible. A double blind test is the ONLY method for a valid test.

Widget

I run many blind test, in general, if you explain the trouble and benefict effect majority of guys listen the difference in Blind test... and it is reality earing fact. The shaker for test is never go upper than 10K and in general The tribos test is run in shaker at around 80Hz...

So build Blind test with your ear: put blue tack gum or tape or any strong fixing method tarap, for fix all your interconnect ( dont matter the type) in each machine, blue tack your cable speaker in back of the speaker never place cable in whip effect.... play before and after !!! try to this work with the cable resonse in same spring and what is best position for less motion...

other home experience put big bag sand on top of your speaker... listen before, after, and fix and unfix cable...

if you not listen a difference good for you.... It is impossible for me to build proof on your head and your ear in distance ??? and what music test,
this is not black and white effect...

I send a couple of image for little easier aspect but, many more other major problem in stereo affect quality sound... so this is not " The " effect...

happy or not this is end for me now...

:(

[Mr. Widget]

happy or not this is end for me now...

:(

I hope that isn't a response to my skepticism... I don't don't mean to put water on your fire.

Widget

[JBLnsince1959]

Hi Jean

Don't go!!! I have some questions. I'm not sure what you mean by "blue tack gum or tape or any strong fixing method tarap" is this for keeping the connection from moving or vibrating?

I too have wondered about using sand above and below ( and even on the sides) to reduce box vibrations, but never thought of it affecting the connection.

Hope you can expand further.

take care
rick

[Mr. Widget]

Yeah... what he said!:)

Actually I didn't really follow the blu tack bit either. Please do elaborate.

Widget

[Zilch]

Putty. Silly Putty.

Bostik Blu-Tack:

http://www.bostik.co.za/stationery/blutack.htm

[B&KMan]

Hi Jean

Don't go!!! I have some questions. I'm not sure what you mean by "blue tack gum or tape or any strong fixing method tarap" is this for keeping the connection from moving or vibrating?

I too have wondered about using sand above and below ( and even on the sides) to reduce box vibrations, but never thought of it affecting the connection.

Hope you can expand further.

take care
rick

Ok OK the crazy Man is back with schema... I hope you more comprehension in my bad english...

First draft is expressio of bad set-up. the jacket is not support inner jacket and create a inertia mass on speakers motion vibration.. so, all stress is located of lighness part and shake shake shake... creation big electrical parasit (accorfing in theorical question) So fix the master jacquet on the box (see second draft. the cable is more stable and move in the side of the jacqiet is more strand. so reduce tribo electric effect...

---- in inside the cabinet the driver generate and standing wave produce high level of vibration and cable shake shake shake... If you twist cable you change the inductance and tribo electic in same time... Not alway good to twist but alway fix with wax thooth silk cable for create big cable the mass create reduce tribo electric effet (I hope the shiel is good otherwise create other problem.
put big polyester cord in core and tarap all cable around is other home made solution... (this is part of secret of Kimber cable...) fix cable to better closely post driver as possible without pass close to magnet... and VOILÀ ...

Why sand upgrade sound ??? because is reduce vibration cabinet so less vibration less tribo electric effet + less standing wave = more level difference on first impulse by residual sound...

more critial aspect in small voltage (so interconnect cable phono and all other is prompt better by this method... not necessary to build a big shrink for this...

N.B. for interconnect put gum blue or tarap cable in frame stand or big unit ....

in ideal method is little higer degree of selection material for proprety of vibration but for now if you run good job , make a difference...

Be shure AC and interconnect is not located closely...

P.S. blue tack is registered name for bar of blue non permanent gum to fix poster and other small device in wall, plastic. kids environnement is loaded on this gum...

I hope to better result


:)


p.s. the sand botton is good but it is extremely important to put the speaker is most stable inertia stand as possible for not scrap the inertia of speaker...

[JuniorJBL]

Jean
Thanks for taking the time to explain your post.
I must admit that at first I thought you were saying some things that were unnecessary but I did not completely understand what you were saying. (reading your posts was a little challenging) But I am now getting better at it.
Thanks for your contributions to the fourm members.
Shane:applaud:

[B&KMan]

(reading your posts was a little challenging)
Shane:applaud:


Well I'm really sorry at all for my poor english,

many time, I go in dictionary, find translate expression, and conjugate verbe is really not easy to english add other complication style ex: the sun is male style and moon female style, house is female style but speaker is male... in futur I try to support my poor language by my poor draft style HAHA !!

But the realy dark side is many many term and vocabulary exist in same at english and french... so (I try to write and I put french word in feeling is same expression in english (mmm)...

add a complexe subjet: this is a 4 stars chalenge...

Happy if help to better comprehension phenomenon.. this is a good start to go in real stuff without bullshit and work good jobs... Let me know Any answer who is too difficult or non sense... or learn more explain...

:)

[B&KMan]

Just in other link informatif for finish this question of tinned cable...

http://www.alphacore.com/mifaq.html



:)

Jean.

[rek50]

Thanks Jean and others for even MORE to think about in the wire world. I'm about to return the Sound King as I have had the turning green experience before with Monster XP. And the plot thickens....

[B&KMan]

Thanks Jean and others for even MORE to think about in the wire world. I'm about to return the Sound King as I have had the turning green experience before with Monster XP. And the plot thickens....


Thanks...

Nothing is simple !!!

The cable is appear to banal componend but created many and complex effect in sound...

In same many research is run in mother board who analog signal..
The cable refers at the really high level... and your satisfaction is according to your ideal research for playback reality...

High level, high complex problem and high many aspects fix with multiple path and quality solid and process build... of course high price but the real stuff is not necessay esoteric and price is not necessary according in this "apellation"

for AC signal: maximum cheap cable in lower quality cable as possible, cheap jacket, and cheap connector, make contact, but it is no comparison if you push a complex evaluation... the monster is fair product. The etter of monster cable is ability to forward the trade name.. For this reason this product is POP in mind who consider the problematic of cable... and probably this is the first reason JBL choose this cable...
This cie is not provider any mil or instrumental or high broadcast level... so, keep it in your mind, what cable cie appear in application in satellite, rocket, or lab of high end science... is probably the best for the less money...

but for other guy is shure this is a enormus fraud look this site
http://www.kimber.com/Library/kktitle.aspx

Maybe it is to much reference for a green copper cable with transparent jacket...

:D

[rek50]

"what cable cie appear in application in satellite, rocket, or lab of high end science... is probably the best for the less money" My initial thoughts about Marine wire were based on the specifications for the conductor. "Dead in the water" is a no-no. I've also considered "Military Spec" wire (fairly cheap on eBay), but thought the "Silver" tinned aspect would be a drawback(Too Bright?). But, it might be worth a try. The "Valley of Indecision" can be deep at times...

[B&KMan]

but thought the "Silver" tinned aspect would be a drawback(Too Bright?).

But, it might be worth a try. The "Valley of Indecision" can be deep at times...

Hey Your answer is sond in same resonnance of me...

YEAH mil spec is excellent point of start, my instrumental grade cable is al the time the top best is silver... silver bnc silver wired and soldering...

The problem with the silver is copper... The copper is more bloom than silver and not silver too bright...

The problem is if the design is consider finest tonal balance wiht copper 2 N of course if you put silver the result is dramatiquely forward the very high frecquency... because the silver is more flat than copper in 10K and up ...

The beauty of JBL with L-Pad is reajust the pad for flat response ans VOILÀ...

Finally why choose silver if L-Pad correction is put down on silver and ... Up on copper ??? The silver is realy more fast transient and impact of fundamental, more life and fast in high harmonics... but the crystal structure of silver is more slow to build in the cable... and the silver is oxidation fast (but the oxidation is more conductor :D ) . The only problem with silver is incompatible with gold... bad reaction ... the rodium is better in this case... or silver all the way is best...

it is not necessary to buy full silver, just thinned is realy best if is put in good configuration for speakers and if the copper support s high level of purity...

My friend is found AT&T with super jacquets teflon but is appear good for ac cable but not for speakers... less price but more test product way ....

Anyway if the cable is build for signal analog, and high degree of copper and thinned silver and telflon dielectric and the size is arround good 14 and below... you have a good prospect in your hand... mil spec is for insulation, oxidation,resistive abrasion and flexure, and tribo-electric aspect control...

many cie out of ebay sale a end balance stock direct for cheap price...

Keep in your mind each cable is build for otimisation on one specific jobs and it is not shure is work in same grae in other jobs...

good seard in valley of indecision. I hope o help you to go out and find the hills of pleasure :)

By the way is you find cable let me know , maybe I buy me too...

Actually I try to evaluate a Litz cable with copper-Silver cable...


Jean.

[sonofagun]

A very real phenomenon I've personally noticed is a difference in my actual hearing sometimes. I don't know if it's related to amount of sleep, food, humidity, barometric pressure, temperature, or whatever, but sometimes I hear a very real difference , especially in the high end, certain times, on songs I'm very familiar with, when absolutely nothing has changed as far as electronics, speakers, or setup/layout goes... The next day everything will be back to normal.

John

Perhaps we should be just as concerned with the most important link in our hearing...our EARS!

I remember having one of my ears cleaned out by a physician years ago (and I mean digging down inside and pulling a pound or two of ear wax out!). Afterwards, the hearing in that ear was FAR better than my other ear - could hear nuances completely masked otherwise - especially the higher frequencies.

"Have you had YOUR ears cleaned recently?" :blink:

[B&KMan]

"Have you had YOUR ears cleaned recently?" :blink:

IT is absolutely right !!!

But most important is wax in head...
The Prejudice is more effect to wax in hear...
Do you hear the difference ordinairy cello and stradivarius cello...

The sound is affected by tempeture, humidity, pressure and for system reproduction by electricity.

In general the tempeture affect running electronic... Over 80 F the sound is more warm, the transistor tempeture inside unit is affected and loose little bit the transient in high frequency...

The big problem of Johnaec relevant is create by electricity...

That is the reason of lab or any sensible device is connected in dispendious conditionning AC current: Inverter is the ultimate but noisy and astronoshing price...

Of course more your chain reproduction is higher more external variable is relevant.: room correction, speakers, placement, electricity, tempeture, humidity, vibration control is appear in big aspect as this level because the system is sufficiently less coloration for unveil other aspects...
One of the reason of the real high end system is many time is sound bad is due to fact of the person is cheaper in one of external aspect. So the unbalance is appear with more "accuracy" and create more frustration than pleasure. But the person is wax in head and consider room correction, cable, vibration control, with joke.... same on you... remember your speakers is a part of CHAIN SYSTEM REPRODUCTION.... any aspect of the link chain determine the down level of the result...

JBL IS ONE OF TOO RARE SPEAKERS IS GO ON TOP LEVEL IN PRO AND HIGH END WHY?? because is produce the high precision stuff in according of physic newton Law... (of course this is true especially with the legendary project JBL)...

LAST year the JBL is won for each high end speaker introduce, a COTY AWard...

And the the 9800 is GOLDEN EAR state product...

did your ear that or you have waxed... :D


p.s. one or two drop virgin oil in ear on the night is sufficient to popup the wax on you ear in the night... ( call your doctor)


and you have a second benefit: you ear is lubrificated for smooth sound enter in your beautiful mind...
(hey this is a joke...) :D

: cheers :

Jean

[JuniorJBL]

p.s. one or two drop virgin oil in ear on the night is sufficient to popup the wax on you ear in the night... ( call your doctor)


and you have a second benefit: you ear is lubrificated for smooth sound enter in your beautiful mind...
(hey this is a joke...) :D

: cheers :

Jean

Smooth sailing from hear:blink: on out

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: