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ngccglp
04-11-2005, 10:47 PM
Hi,

I know the crossover freq for the 4312 is at 1.5 kHz and 6 kHz, but I am not really sure what instruments freq falls under which band of the audio freq spectrum, therefore I am having a hard time adjusting the mid and treble pots to suit my room (also don't quite understand what presence and brilliance means).

I would like advice on which pot (mid or high) should I adjust for the following instruments (I know some instruments spread across a wide spectrum, but I'm looking for the dominant spectrum in general) :

female vocals
saxaphone
hi hat and cymbals
snare drum
keyboards
electric guitar

I know this sounds crude but hopefully this info will help me fine tune the 4312 to my room. Currently it is too bright, but when I turn down the pots, some music lacks life etc.. I have been going to and fro without much success.

Thanks
david

Zilch
04-11-2005, 11:16 PM
Brilliance is the HF pad, Presence is the MF pad.

Somebody posted a cool link here recently which showed the frequency ranges for various instruments and voices. I looked, but can't find it for you.

Bo?

There's also a thread on adjusting L100 controls, with several approaches described. Use "Search" to find that one....

Mr. Widget
04-11-2005, 11:19 PM
This is a very subjective area. It really is a case of when it sounds right it is right.

"...also don't quite understand what presence and brilliance means."

Presence is refering to the forward or recessed sound quality from bringing up or turning down the mids... Brilliance is refering to the highs as in extra brilliance would mean sound that shimmers or is overly siblent.

Try setting both controls to the mid point of their rotation or 0dB if so labled. Try balancing the mid control (Presence) with the woofer first. When it seems natural try balancing the high control (Brilliance). Typically this will be a bit over bright when set at the mid point or 0dB. I find -1dB may be better.

Widget

ngccglp
04-12-2005, 12:09 AM
Thanks guys. I did search for 4312 but not L100:banghead: . Now I found the tread on L100 controls and printed the manual from Giskard. Will experiment later.

Don Mascali
04-12-2005, 03:46 AM
http://www.dplay.com/tutorial/freqpaint.html

This has a chart with various instrument frequency ranges.

ngccglp
04-12-2005, 05:49 AM
Just completed adjusting the controls, but my readings are lower than most forum members. My mid is at 2 and High is at 3 (scale is 0 to 10). This could be due to: 1. My speaker is about 1 m from the rear wall and I'm about 2m away from the speakers, 2. I'm using naim amplification which is forward sounding.

The chart is consistent with what I heard. I was surprised to discover the 12" woofer is producing a large proportion of every instrument, no wonder early JBL brochure says it is the heart of the 4312. I love the speed of the woofer, it is very fast and drums really has weight and snap. With the mid and Highs turned off, the music is still quite enjoyable. I slowly added the mid to add definition to the sound. Lastly I added the treble and tested it with vocals to check for sibilance and classic jazz to check the sparkle of the cymbals.

If 5 is the factory default, then I think I have a major system mismatch.:blink:

4313B
04-12-2005, 06:01 AM
Try not to get too caught up in what is default. Adjust to your taste and enjoy. I distinctly remember running more than one pair of JBL's with the mids and highs in the "2" to "3" range.

boputnam
04-12-2005, 07:31 AM
Try not to get too caught up in what is default. Adjust to your taste and enjoy. :yes:

And to Zilch's point - check-out this discussion on the Second Decade.

JBLnsince1959
04-12-2005, 07:34 AM
David:

I hope with this post I'm not "over doing it" (I think you may already know this), but I'll go a little further.

As you noticed with the chart MOST of the Fundamental notes are being produced by the woofer, HOWEVER, the sounds you hear from voices and musical instruments are composed of two basic elements( I'm not going into transients in this decussion):

1. Fundamental notes - i.e. middle A ( 440 Kz); E (659 Hz); G ( 196 Hz). MOST fundamentals we hear in music is below 1600 Hz, but that's not where the story ends.

2. Harmonics ( partials) - secondary vibrations of every note. It is the harmonics that really tell us what we are hearing. For example, if we look at the note E ( 659 Hz) as produced by a violin, it's fundamental is 659 Hz, BUT the harmonics of that note are ( I'm not exact but rounding off) ; 2th - 1300 Hz), 3rd - 2000; 4th - 2500; 5th 3300, 6th - 4000Hz; 7th -4800Hz;8th - 5600Hz; 9th 6100 Hz; 10th - 6800 Hz; 11th 7200Hz;12th 7800Hz;13th 8500 Hz;14th - 9500Hz; 15th - 10,000Hz

Therefore, changing the present and brillance will mainly change the WAY you hear the music, because the full spectrum of the note E will be in all three speakers. It is the harmonics that really tell us what we are hearing; drum, trumpet, voice etc, also it's the harmonics that give a sound it's flavor. This is why I think that alot of people think that the new JBL speakers sound shrill ( Titanium tweeters), not only is it affecting the higher notes BUT every note from the speaker; voice, instructments etc. That's also why good crossovers are very important.

Now, the second thing to look at is HOW the Mind hears. Human beings are designed to talk and range of the human voice is about 170 Hz to about 4000, most fundamentals are below 1000HZ. the mind ( or ear if you will) is most sensitive to around 3000 Hz. So it is mostly the harmonics that the mind is design to focus on to interpret what we are hearing. That's why the Mid's are call Presence, it's affects the most sensitive area where the mind intreprets the sound and affects the "lower" harmonics. The Brilliance will be affecting the "upper" harmonics.

hope this helps

Tom Loizeaux
04-12-2005, 06:08 PM
I use a pair of 4312As and I turned down both the mid and tweeter controls a good bit...and added a small 12" JBL subwoofer, keeping the 4312 running full range, and the sound quite good!

Tom

ngccglp
04-12-2005, 06:29 PM
Thanks guys for all the advice. I'm letting my "confused" ears :screwy: get used to the current setting before making further adjustments.

Interesting Tom. May I know which model of the JBL sub you are using? Is the crossover freq adjustable to suit the 4312?

Thanks.

boputnam
04-12-2005, 09:20 PM
What JBLsince... is driving at, I believe, is the importance of overtones and harmonics in our hearing. The chart below (credit KlarkTeknik DN370 manual) only shows the primary frequency range for tones. In the case of vocals, the 3kHz to 8kHz range is infinately important to intelligibility - to presence and diction.

Anyway, follow - as per usual - Giskard's advice: Adjust the L-pads to taste, and enjoy!

Mr. Widget
04-12-2005, 09:42 PM
Anyway, follow - as per usual - Giskard's advice: Adjust the L-pads to taste, and enjoy!

While dwelling on the frequencies of specific instruments and charts like this one (which is similar to this one from a mid 70's Altec catalog) is interesting... ultimately it is best to trust your ears and use them to make your adjustments.

Widget

Tom Loizeaux
04-13-2005, 05:10 AM
...Interesting Tom. May I know which model of the JBL sub you are using? Is the crossover freq adjustable to suit the 4312?

Thanks.

I use a JBL PB12. I set it up so the full input signals run to the 4312s as well. Then I bring up the frequency until I feel the sub is adding too much to what the 4312s are putting out in the low end. Then I lower the sub's "crossover" a little and then dial down the volume of the sub until it fits into the overall sound just right. The sub is bearly working, but if I turn it off, I notice a loss in the low end.
There are better subs out there, but since I need so little in this application, I find the PB12 to be plenty.

Tom

JBLnsince1959
04-13-2005, 05:59 AM
"What JBLsince... is driving at, I believe, is the importance of overtones and harmonics in our hearing"

Exactly.... that and the fact that the full spectrum of any single note made by a person or musical instrument has many harmonics ( overtones) and these run thur all speakers ( woofers, mids, tweeters).

a simply way to understand this is to unhook the tweeter and mid and listen to the woofer. as one then hooks back the mid range the sound becomes more clear and then hook up the tweeter it all comes to play.

But, bottom-line is as our local genius Giskard said: "Adjust the L-pads to taste, and enjoy!"

B&KMan
04-14-2005, 06:42 AM
Hi,

I would like advice on which pot (mid or high) should I adjust for the following instruments (I know some instruments spread across a wide spectrum, but I'm looking for the dominant spectrum in general) :

Thanks
david

bonjour bonjour (hello)

Sorrry for poor english.

Your problem is the same of all Lpad member of JBL communauty...

this is one point who guy tried and tried and tried and turn crazy... Why...

I tadd my voice for little explanation of few tip for more comprehension phenomenon...

The balance tonal is probably the most factor where minimum deviation is critical. In regards on the prev post, any harmoniques construction is affected, cable, macth component , position, angle, current, all affect this point. But the big major influence is room:

1--- the reverberation time and the linearity of this time at all frecuency affect dramasticely the tonal balance. (this is the first reason is impossible to give a receipt experience) to live area = put down pad) dead or big damping area = more higher pad...

the professionnal set-up is run pink noise in full range and keep multiple average positions around your sweet-spot.

YES dispendious but the difference is wow... more details more realistic, more everything...
Never your ear is equal this set-up... but if you play instrument; record you with reference material (the ultra flat response mic is critical) and playback on your system :-) the flavor, tone and acoustic detail is easy referenciel...

2--- the first 3 modal respons of room (in low frecency ) affect drasticly the tone and blend with the first problem ...

3--- if you listen the record, you have no information of acoustical response in recordind session and you have not idea what is right, of course the coarse placement is possible, but other record other set-up... and again a again change...

I remember the close to realistic set-up pad is possible with one slm and little sofware play a frecquency cut. You put your slm in 1.5 m in half position between two driver. play only one driver and check you slm value... add the second driver pad just just the vale is exact 3 db higher. the slm is no displacement and fixed in stand and your position is ideally same place but over a 1.5 m distance of meter. this is a good average position pot. probably 1 or 2 indent max deviation...

Good luck

Jean
:)

ngccglp
04-15-2005, 03:32 AM
Thanks Jean for the explanation. I think I will try to use pink noise the next time I meddle with the controls.

Q - To get pink noise I just need a tuner and not tune in to any station?

Alex Lancaster
04-15-2005, 05:29 AM
:) YouŽll get "white noise"; for pink You need a generator, lots of equalizers and RTAŽs have them.

Don Mascali
04-15-2005, 06:37 AM
http://www.nch.com.au/tonegen/

This site has an "evaluation" download of a tone generator that has pink noise and various wave forms. Can't beat the price.:applaud:

B&KMan
04-15-2005, 07:47 AM
Thanks Jean for the explanation. I think I will try to use pink noise the next time I meddle with the controls.

Q - To get pink noise I just need a tuner and not tune in to any station?

NO !!!

This type of FM generator sound is not consistent, maybe white, maybe pink not not equally in all band... but manys trace of other signal of other stations or interferences is hiddend by noise but false result.

The RTA is mesure the pink noise but if you have a Power Spectrum Density or Energy Spectrum density who have a set-up correction to mesure white noise...

the pink noise is easy to found in CD or in small freeWare on WWW the RTA and especially the mic is realy to hard and dispendious: couple of tousand US box for prime grade...

But the best is little sofware Is generate the sinewave or frequency cut and slm (anyway the quality, in half distance of the 2 driver... at 1.2 m you deliver a good average fine tune with hear... but no more one or 2 indent...

happy test... :)

ngccglp
04-17-2005, 03:27 AM
Today I had time, so I moved the speakers to another room where I can postition the speakers nearer to the rear wall. What a difference it make! I was able to return the presence and brilliance setting back to the mid position and it was just about right. I think the 4312 needs a bit of back wall reinforcement to balance up the low frequency. Yes I lose a bit of the bass defintion but the overall sound is more balance. Cool! :barf:

B&KMan
04-17-2005, 08:51 AM
Today I had time

HA AH !!

Well run the tuning in your ear...

in regards of your listening position:

check the level speaker incoherence is broken the image and the smash bass.

check carrefully the toe innner angle of speaker:
each very fine toe in altering drastiquely the focus and tonal balance...
10 to 15 degree is appear best..

check the symetrie for snap sound.


and check your listening position if your forward or back the tonal balance and snap is big change in regards of standing wave in room and the modal response combine at the effect of echoe amplitute and lineariry in regards of each location of material damping...

the room is the biggest factor is influence and modalise your response. so work work work..... more precise work more result great...

:D

after your determine what is the spot where the less problem acoustic are, and focus and dymanic, now play your LPad for fine tune.

and restart over all again finest spiral tuning. and voila... :)

Oh I omit the spearker tuning is work in all dimension of the room so try different elevation of speaker and probably big surprise in regards of bass tuning...

the go good start principle is the premium number division of room size because it is minimise the standing wave... is not perfect but good start...

try a manual instruction of couple of JBL Speakers for coarse placements... :bouncy:

Uncle Paul
04-17-2005, 11:21 AM
True Audio offers their level 1 RTA for free. It comes with a lot of features including signal and noise generators, plus the advantage of being able to see the response. All you need is a computer and a mike to use.

http://www.trueaudio.com/rta_down.htm

Don't know if it's as good as a professional unit, but the price is right and has lots of features.

Mr. Widget
04-17-2005, 11:44 AM
I just checked out their site... can't argue with free, but at full octave resolution it isn't really terribly useful for really dialing in a system. I find 1/3 octave is really needed. Higher resolution and time windowing are also great, but typically cost a bit. They do offer 1/3 octave for $40 though and that is very reasonable. You must supply a mic. There are several affordable mics available on the market all based on the Panasonic capsule.

Widget

B&KMan
04-17-2005, 04:20 PM
Don't know if it's as good as a professional unit, but the price is right and has lots of features.

Well , it is easy to found in WWW many software RTA... The type 1 is serious and suppose a sound card, cable mic and mic serious.

But in regards of reply of MR Widget, democratisation of mic and software RTA permit to build a serious idea what is what...

But the best is software with internal signal control of the central preocessor and response curse of acessory in especially the mic. Because the major mic is drop at Hight frequency... and is depend of the type of mic : free-field, pressure field, cardioid, etc,... condensor, pre-polarized, etc...
but if you have a signature of mic, you have a opportunity to ajust the response curve :)

Keep a particulary attention in tempeture and humidity who affect drastiquely the response ( depend of mic)

The free-field mic is generally bad random mic position, the pressure field is 90 degree oriented but more less sensitive direction sound.

But be carreful methodology is a secret of good records test... average in sufficient time (minimum 30 seconds) and many different spot... the average is the key... check ISO, ANSI, and other normalisation method...

the high end lab line product include 1/12 or 1/24 octave, all tool for average, system time for tolerance level, type of control of average, pink, white noise, etc, etc,

but the type octave is probably to slow for 1/3 in type 1 standart...
Be shure the appelation is controlled in accordance of internationnal standart.
to much product is not realy level or in yet as a crazy one set-up who the paramater is not consistent in regards at the application...
Let me know if know more... :bouncy:

is possible to build a test comparison for real material comparison. :bouncy:

ngccglp
04-18-2005, 03:14 AM
According to George Augspurger, the mid control should be set to around 4, and the high control to about 7 for flat response, if I remember correctly.

I think Harvey Gerst is quite right about the setting. Today I did a very extensive A/B with my other system with the same song "Bad Company's Rock Steady" because I know this song inside out. It has a guitar solo in the middle to help me adjust the mid and during the solo, the drummer hit the crash in a very steady beat, and this helps me adjust the highs. I also used the vocals to adjust the mid to get the relative depth of the vocals.

Surprisingly, my controls ended up in about the same position as that described above. My mid is 3 and highs 7. However, I would like to qualify that I am not sure how flat is my reference system, its just that I have been listening to that system for the past 7 years and am quite satisfied with that balance.

OK back to music...Ready for Love is next...:D

Guido
04-18-2005, 03:46 AM
If 5 is the factory default, then I think I have a major system mismatch.:blink:

Back to your initial question :)

I recently reworked a 4310 network and adjusted it to flat response.
Presence was 4 and brilliance was 5 at the end.

Sounded NOT right for me. After adjusting it to my hearing preference Presence was 3 and Brilliance was 2 at the end.

So, as Giskard wrote: Adjust to your own needs. Those old control monitors are a bit to forward at default settings.
Somewhere is a tech note regarding this subject "....choosing the right studio monitor...."
Have a search.