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korgroenewoud
03-28-2005, 12:31 AM
From the Japanese distributor (Harman Japan) i received a manual of the S 3100 MK II in japanese. Im going to send it to a translation-office, because i dont no a word of japanese.
But a funny thing i saw in the manual was a photo of positioning the S 3100 in right-angle room. ( my room is 5.80 x4.20 meters) In that case it says, you have to place the speakers along the shortest wall and you must turn them outward!! for max. 20 degrees.
Well i tried it and i must say that the image, soundstage is (at least in my room) must improved.
Are there members who have an explanation for this?

korgroenewoud
03-28-2005, 03:27 AM
In that case it says, you have to place the speakers along the shortest wall and you must turn them outward!! for max. 20 degrees.

Sorry,
I made a mistake. Its maximum 10 degrees.

Bernard Wolf
03-28-2005, 05:21 AM
I am having a hard time imagining what you are saying as it makes no sense at all. If you download the S/3100 manual from JBL you will have a quite long explanation of the proper positioning, which is the speakers from 2-3 meters apart and almost straight ahead or perhaps toed in just a bit. This will give the best imaging and also the best off axis imaging.

As for positioning in the room, there is no mention of this and I doubt the importance compared to the distance from walls. I use the above formula, but I have actually placed my 3100 across a corner with plenty of space all around. In fact I have often wondered at the positionig of most of the members photos that I have seen here as they seem to always be up against a wall. I have found that most speakers sound best in open space with plenty of space behind them in particular. I will try to attach a photo of my set-up.

Bernard

korgroenewoud
03-28-2005, 07:30 AM
You may be right, but i think it depends on your room. I see you have the speakers across the room. Thats ideal. I cant do this because of the space i have.

John
03-28-2005, 11:00 AM
I have to agree they always sound and image better in the middle of the room but very few homes allow this setup. I love good audio but then again I love a room that is people friendly. 3 feet from the wall is still pretty good to my ear.
Oh And I am talking about all speaker systems in general, I have never owned that model.

Bernard Wolf
03-28-2005, 11:39 AM
I have to agree they always sound and image better in the middle of the room but very few homes allow this setup. I love good audio but then again I love a room that is people friendly. 3 feet from the wall is still pretty good to my ear.
Oh And I am talking about all speaker systems in general, I have never owned that model.

I also am talking about every speaker I have owned. The S/3100 images extremely well, as good as anything I have ever heard including my old Quad 57's.The 9' of open space behind them really lets them shine.

I must admit that I am very fortunate in having a room used almost exclusively for audio/HT. Had to raise the house and have a basement put in and then finish it off myself to get it, but hey, whats 10yrs worth of work for an audio room ? :biting:

Bernard

korgroenewoud
03-28-2005, 11:47 AM
Hello Bernhard,

If you had a rightangle room of 5.80 x 4.30 meters, where would you place the S 3100?

Kor

Bernard Wolf
03-28-2005, 12:23 PM
Hello Bernhard,

If you had a rightangle room of 5.80 x 4.30 meters, where would you place the S 3100?

Kor

If by rightangle you mean rectangular, I would place them about 7.5' apart, center to center and toed in just a bit along the long wall, meaning you would be looking down the length of the room. You could experiment having them almost touching the side walls and then toeing them in a bit more to maintian imaging and to not have a hole in the middle. Then I would place them as far out from the front wall as possible - front being the wall you are looking at when facing the 3100 - at least 5 or 6 feet..or more, if possible. Because of the positioning close to the side walls they might not be as intrusive as you might think.

Bernard

korgroenewoud
03-30-2005, 11:30 AM
I placed them about 8 feet apart. And i placed them about 3 feet from the frontwall, and 1,5 feet from the sidewalls. More is not possible. I placed the subs behind them, and must say that there is a big improvement. The distance from me to the speaker is about 9 feet.


Kor

Bernard Wolf
03-30-2005, 12:21 PM
You might want to try sitting a little bit closer - a foot or so - I kind of like the nearfield... but that sounds like a good set-up... too bad you can't have a bit more space behind them as I am always amazed at the layering that goes on back there. I'm surprised you are using subs - do you find that it slows down the bass any ?

Bernard

korgroenewoud
03-30-2005, 12:30 PM
In my set up the S3100 gives to less bass. The bass is extremely thin, compared to my 250 TI. The speaker is not designed to go extreme low. The subs complete the frequency range in a very gentle way. I use two TIK SUBS, which contains the woofer SUB 1500. You have to try these once.


Kor

Bernard Wolf
03-30-2005, 05:13 PM
Well I guess subs could be fun but I find in my largish - 650 sq.ft. room I get vety good bass extension although I do understand that the S3100 is not made with that in mind, rather quick and articulate bass. Kind of surprised to hear you say they are extremely bass thin though, unless of course you are running a SE amp.

That being said, I did find most amps I auditioned to be a bit bass shy but not my Jadis DA30 although it is only 30 watts PP! I have a small eq I kick in sometimes with electronoc music and the like and I measure -8db at 31.5 Hz, -10 at 25hz which is adequate for my needs. I would be concerned about adding any extra complexity and perhaps less refinement with the subs... sure would like to try it though ! :bouncy:

Bernard

korgroenewoud
03-31-2005, 06:00 AM
Only when the S 3100 is placed close to the frontwals, the bass is good and well balanced(in my room). But every inch moving away from the walls will give less bass.
In contrary to my 250 TI. They could stand alone. So i do agree that the S3100 sounds much better away from the walls, except the bass. Thats why i use subs. The problem can't be the amplicication, because i use Mcintosh MC 1000 as poweramps. They can handle almost every speaker.

Bernard Wolf
03-31-2005, 06:13 AM
Hi Kor

Well there is probably an explanation for everything if you can just find it ! Perhaps because I run my 3100 across a corner I get a loading effect ? I don't know. But even in my previous room which is similar to yours I had good bass response.

I recently ran them with a Marantz 2343(?) 125 watt reciever and I had very full and deep, driving bass indeed... ultimately just not refined enough for me though.

I checked out those subs of yours... now that looks real scary:baby:... must turn the 3100 into some kind of monster :D

Bernard

korgroenewoud
03-31-2005, 06:51 AM
When you start the sound, it is almost an eartquake. Tremendous low bass response.

Kor

Bernard Wolf
03-31-2005, 07:09 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you must have paid more for the subs than the 3100, no?

korgroenewoud
03-31-2005, 07:38 AM
Yes thats correct. But i must say that the retailprice of the S3100 in Holland was 6000 USD a pair. The TIK SUB cost now new 4000 USD a piece, thats including a 600 Watt poweramp. But i bought them secondhand, so a bit cheaper.


Kor

Bernard Wolf
04-01-2005, 07:01 AM
Kor

I'm still very interested in understanding why you are getting thin bass out of the 3100 without the subs. I remember awhile back someone complaining about getting a huge boost in the bass in their small room and I must say I have only had "thin" bass when using Single Ended small watt tube amps. Are you certain that you are in proper phase? I hate to ask that question as it always sounds a bit insulting.. but it has happened to the best of us :blink:... best to check with a test CD if you have.

Bernard

korgroenewoud
04-02-2005, 10:59 AM
Hi Bernhard,

If i place my S 3100 1 foot from a frontwall i have sufficient bass. Every inch further, which sounds in the highs much better, will give less bass. Phase is alright. Today i started a new placement. I placed the speakers along the longest wall. And i tell you that sounds much better. So i think it has something to do with the acoustics. My room is 5.85 x 4.30. So now they are about 5 feet awy from the sidewalls. But i still need the subs.


Kor

korgroenewoud
04-09-2005, 08:50 AM
Hallo Bernhard,

In the manual of S3100 it says that the center image point have to stay in the middle of the speakers. Does that mean if you move slightly to the right or to the left that the voice f.i . moves also that way?


Kor

Bernard Wolf
04-09-2005, 06:24 PM
Hi Kor

No, the image should not move with you - the whole idea of the Defined Directivity (DD) asymmetric horn is that more sound is forced to the distant axis compared to the near so that someone sitting off center will get more or less the same image as someone on axis. If you were going to say the image was moving at all it would be in the opposite direction to your move. You go right, it goes left.This is why the correct positioning of the speaker should be straight ahead unless they are very far apart.

My speakers are about 8' apart and angled in just very slightly.. if I sit, let us say 3 ' off axis to the right, the speakers seem to swivel in my direction, and everything more or less maintains the same soundstage.. not perfectly so perhaps, but much, much better than a conventional speaker were everything just collapses into the near speaker.

Of course you don't have to set them up this way if the DD is not important to you. You can toe them in to the listening position if you like.The sweet spot remains about the same though no matter what you do - at least as far as I can tell - so you may as well set them up the way they were designed to be used. The only real reason I can see for toeing them in would be to cancell out any sidewall relections if they are up against a wall.

Hope this helps.

Bernard

korgroenewoud
04-13-2005, 08:52 AM
Hello Bernhard,

What are the dimensions of your listeningroom? I told you i placed them along the longest wall and that sounds good. But when i listen a longer period, i begin to miss a part of the higher bass.
You placed them crossed i understand. Can you give me more details about this placement? I mean distant from walls, listening position etc. If you have a same sort of room, i can start with that as reference position.

Kor

Bernard Wolf
04-14-2005, 05:46 AM
The long walls are 35' x 24', the rest is a bit of an L shape so I won't bother with those dimensions. I place the 3100 across that corner about 10' out from the corner and 7.5' apart center to center which leaves them out about 3' from the receding sidewall. I sit in free space about 8' from the front plane of the speakers.

This is not necessarily the only good position in the room as I did not have the option of others... it just worked out that what with furnishings and workspace - this room doubles as a work room and guestroom as well - I was left with just this option.. it does work out quite well though as I get really fine bass with no boom or bloat and incredible soundstaging back to that corner and from side to side out of the room seemingly.

Bernard