Are there ways to date JBL D130F speakers?

[horseshead]

How are you?

I am new here :) but was directed from the fender forum to ask my question in this forum.
I have a couple of JBL D130F guitar speakers that I would like to date but I would most like to know if these speakers are original or if they have been reconed. I bought them used in a Fender cabinet without the amp. It's a dual showman cabinet, 48 inches high. The decals on each speaker are numbered consecutively, 42119 and 42120 on the other speaker. In addition, there is a gray stamped number 21057 on the back of each speaker's cone, and there is a black ink stamp on the basket of both speakers in block letters that says Fender P/N 023101.

Thanks,
Rick

[Mr. Widget]

Isn't someone going to let Rick in on "The Secret"?:bs:

[johnaec]

Isn't someone going to let Rick in on "The Secret"?:bs:As I recall, weren't all these older records lost in the Northridge earthquake a number of years back?

John

[Mr. Widget]

That's my understanding.

Welcome to Lansing Land!

If you post some photos of your D130Fs some of the sleuths here might be able to narrow them down for you...as for recone or original, there are some give aways, but typically you need to look at under side and look for glue residue or a wider than factory bead of glue around the dustcap.

Widget

[GordonW]

Yeah, the cone number is a pretty good indicator.

If it has a "130-020" stamp on the backside of the cone, chances are either it's original, or it was reconed VERY early in its life. Either way, it's the RIGHT cone....

Also, I have a pair of D130s here... serial numbers 48084 and 48085... that I know were bought between late 1959 and early 1961. So, that can be a relative time indicator. Given how close your numbers are to mine, they HAVE to be probably within a year of the same age...

Regards,
Gordon.

[horseshead]

That's my understanding.

Welcome to Lansing Land!

If you post some photos of your D130Fs some of the sleuths here might be able to narrow them down for you...as for recone or original, there are some give aways, but typically you need to look at under side and look for glue residue or a wider than factory bead of glue around the dustcap.

Widget

Hi Mr. Widget,
Thanks to you and to everyone for your resposes. My questions were some 30 years in comming. But when I tried to upload my photos of the JBL's I got the following error message:

File Too Large. Limit for this filetype is 195.3 KB. Your file is 1.03 MB.

The photos are jpg. Is there some kind of file compression I can use here to upload the pics?

Rick

[Zilch]

Resize them in your photo editor to 640 X 480 pixels.

[Mr. Widget]

File Too Large. Limit for this filetype is 195.3 KB. Your file is 1.03 MB.

The jpeg should be no wider than 800 pixels and if you use Photoshop, set the "Quality" to "High" and not "Maximum"... other software probably have similar designations... essentially if you have too much color info the file is too large for the system to support.

Widget

[stephane RAME]

jbl - fender twin 1980

[horseshead]

You'll have to give me a few hours. Right now I only have pictures of the back of the speakers. Also, I have to go to work and come home first.

Rick

[horseshead]

Alright, first three pictures are of the top d130f. The last three pictures are of the bottom d130f. By the quality of the pictures are you guys able to tell whether or not they are originals or recones? I picked what I thought were the clearest pictures but I have others if these are not good enough.

Thank you, I've been wondering how to get "that sound" for the better part of 30 years until my favorite guitarist tipped me off on the famous d130, saying that he prefers the 12's (d120's). So, I couldn't afford them right away and wound up with a rebuilt pair.

Rick

[horseshead]

The last three pictures didn't attach so I'll attach them now. Again they are the other d130 which is on the bottom portion of my cabinet.

[horseshead]

Look at the difference in the condition of the screen/decal area. There looks like their might have been or is some liquid damage on the d130 at the bottom of the cabinet.

[57BELAIRE]

Here is a D130 removed from a late 50's guitar amp.
From my experience I believe it has the original cone. Notice the "Jim Lansing"
designation.

Referring back to an earlier discussion of Fender amps equipped with JBL's, they had an "F'' suffix attached . According to Harvey Gerst, Fender started to offer JBL's during the introduction of their Showman series in '61, so....I would date your D130'S from '61 until the introduction of the next series(E?).

RBH

[horseshead]

I can see that it looks like JBL used a single "ring" cone kit which was rated only 25 or 30 watts although easily capable of handling 50. This is what I have been told by my D120F reconer, who said he used to work for JBL. And that a two-piece cone came soon after JBL started making the D130 for Fender, to provide a 100-watt version power handling by adding a separate cloth surround instead of the paper cone comming all the way out to the edge of the basket. It was done originally for Dick Dale, so that he wouldn't have to worry about blowing the speakers every time he played and it became the standard version of the speaker that people use when discussing "the classic" D130. As I mentioned a couple of posts up, I had a couple of these rebuilt (not original) by Wesley Music in a D120 version. Anyone else have the same information?

Rick

[horseshead]

That's my understanding.

Welcome to Lansing Land!

Thank you!

If you post some photos of your D130Fs some of the sleuths here might be able to narrow them down for you...as for recone or original, there are some give aways, but typically you need to look at under side and look for glue residue or a wider than factory bead of glue around the dustcap.

Widget

The bottm D130F appears to have a wider bead of glue around the dustcap than that of the top D130F. The back shows some auqua color that is typical of the oxidation you see from liquid damage just on the edge of the screen on the decal . Is this clearly a recone?
Rick

[57BELAIRE]

It sure looks like a recone to me...normally with a D130 this age the aluminum centerdome will have experienced some form of oxidation. This one is so shiny it looks new. Also, the bead of glue IS wider and doesn't look 100% factory.

rbh

[horseshead]

But the other D130F look original
Rick

[Tim Rinkerman]

57 belaire..

I believe you have the fake recone..the number on the cone..WHF-something,stands for Waldom Hi Fidelity....they made component parts for loudspeaker reconers...the orange gasket was the other give-away. If you were to take this speaker apart you would find that the voice coil is round copper wire,not flat aluminum, and the cone does not have the same travel as a factory JBL....
horsehead,
Yours look to be both original....the dome probably got dented at some point, and needed to be replaced. If you poke one in and pull it out, they usually eventually crack where it was dented,and buzz.
The D-130 and the D-140 are both 15" speakers. The 130 has the single roll edge(surround)and is an all purpose speaker. The D-140 has the "accordion"type surround, and is designed for lower frequency use,the pleated edge lets the cone move further,without adding much more mechanical resistance. The D-120 is a 12" speaker with a single roll surround,as is the D-110. Any with an"F" suffix were destined for Fender amps.
Hope this helps, Tim

[GordonW]

Tim's dead-on, with his assessment, WRT the woofer 57BELAIRE posted the pic of. WHFXXXX is indeed the format Waldom used for their aftermarket cones, though they've changed the format now to "HFXXXX". And yes, they do apparently STILL use a round-wire coil in their replacement cone kits, even though flat-wire coils, identical to the originals, are available elsewhere these days.

Sometimes, when doing an aftemarket recone, I'll use a Waldom cone (some of their cones are almost dead-ringers for the originals, as far as weight, stiffness, treatment and such are concerned) with a MWA voice coil (flat-wire). This, usually, will result in a woofer that has identical specs to the original. In fact, we just had to recone a LE15B this way... the only LE15 model with a corregated surround... because JBL no longer carries a corregated-surround LE15 kit. Used a Waldom cone, with a MWA voice coil, spider and dustcap... and it came out right-on.

I also think Tim is right, in his assessment of horsehead's woofers. If that woofer WAS reconed, it was reconed VERY early in its life, and the PROPER FACTORY kit was used. It may well be, that the dome alone was replaced, as that, as Tim mentioned, was a common operation as the domes got dented or punctured...

Regards,
Gordon.

[57BELAIRE]

Hmmmm...I wondered about that...My cone should have read 130-101?

Oh well, since the part is not JBL I guess I'll just toss it.....

Thanks one and all ;)

rbh

[horseshead]

horsehead,
Yours look to be both original....the dome probably got dented at some point, and needed to be replaced. If you poke one in and pull it out, they usually eventually crack where it was dented,and buzz.
The D-130 and the D-140 are both 15" speakers. The 130 has the single roll edge(surround)and is an all purpose speaker. The D-140 has the "accordion"type surround, and is designed for lower frequency use,the pleated edge lets the cone move further,without adding much more mechanical resistance. The D-120 is a 12" speaker with a single roll surround,as is the D-110. Any with an"F" suffix were destined for Fender amps.
Hope this helps, Tim

Well yeah! You saved me the time and money of looking for another D130F to replace. Thanks! Gordon put them at about a '59 or '60 but I bought them in May of 2002 in a dual showman cabinet. One of two possiblities are that the speakers were put into that cabinet after they were manufactured, sat on the shelf of the factory before being installed in the cabinet, or used, whichever, because that cabinet wasn't made until '67, at least according to the ampwares website. The other possiblity is that the speakers were manufactured later than '59 or '60 - at least '67.

But, tell me this, are the D120's suppossed to possess the same sonic signiture as the D130's? I recently bought a pair of D120's rebuilt to 1957 or '58 specifications with non-JBL replacement parts. The only part that remained original JBL was the orange basket. These D120's have a one piece paper cone instead of the usual two piece cone and are rated at 25 to 35 watts peak as opposed to the usual 100 watts peak. As an aside, in all fairness, I mounted them in a 2x12" 39" high closed back fender cabinet with a few screw holes loose and stripping in the front baffle to mount the speakers (one of the screws had to be left out for one of the speakers) than the tight screw holes of my D130's forty five and 1/2" high 2x15" closed back cabinet (which also happened to come containing fiberglass insulation inside). Could these later variables be the cause in the diffence of sound that I am hearing between the 120's and 130's, or is the difference in sound due to the difference in vintage build and/or that the 120's don't have the spectrum of rich tone that I/one would normally hear from the 130's?
Rick

[Tim Rinkerman]

Glad I could help,Horseman! The 130 will sound warmer or fuller (guitarspeak) due to the amount of cone driven by the voice coil, as opposed to the same size voice coil in the 120,moving much less paper. The aluminum domes make the upper frequencies sound pretty much the same,but the bigger cone will produce more bass every time...on a similar note,I've never heard a Twin Reverb with 2-120's in it described as "warm" either...:biting:
Also,in the accuracy department,the round wire(fake)replacement voice coils are totally different sounding than the originals. Quieter,and less sensitive to dynamics,kinda like dead strings...I think that may be what you are describing as lacking richness of tone.

[riker1384]

Buy it flowers and take it out for dinner and a movie......I'm here all night.

[horseshead]

I just played the D120's the second time and they sound great now. I guess they needed to be broken in. Warm is not the right term for a JBL, but on first try they didn't have much of that JBL character sound. They are a little light weight in the lows because of the absence of the separate surround piece which if included can lower the resonant frequency or as you put it, if absent, gives less, or gives less mechanical resistance. But anyway, the doped paper surround which I have has less low end, so they are in fact a little less warm sounding than the 100 watt model. A flat ribbon voice coil was used so that you couldn't tell the difference between the original '57 or '58 model and this rebuild. Still, I'm interested how the 100 watt model sounds by comparison to this one although I have nothing to complain about. I heard Weber does recones that you can't tell the difference between his and the origianl JBL's. Any body else have any experience with them?

Ah, horses! :banghead:

[Don McRitchie]

With regards to dating the "F" series speakers, about the only thing that can be stated definitively are the dates of the series run. Harvey Gerst has stated that he developed the "F" series speakers around 1967 while working at JBL. He posts occaisionally on this forum and a search of his messages will provide significant, useful background. The "F" series was replaced by the "K" series in 1973. Therefore any D130F would have been made some time during that eight year period. Prior to the "F" series, the "D" series were supplied as OEM speakers to amplifier manufacturers from the very beginnings of JBL in the 1940's. Les Paul purchased speakers directly from Jim Lansing as early as 1948 (likely D130's and D131's).

[horseshead]

[QUOTE=Don McRitchie]
The "F" series was replaced by the "K" series in 1973.

Don,

Do you know when in '73 the "K" series was first introduced? And when was the "E" series introduced? How would you describe the sound of each of these three series speakers to eachother?


[QUOTE=Don McRitchie]
Therefore any D130F would have been made some time during that eight year period.

Thanks, I'll check when fender started using the later model cabinet for their d130f/dual showman combo as I have the earlier model cabinet with the silver metal strip between the edge of the grill and the black tolex covered wood. Also, the color of the grill cloth is more bluish versus the more greenish color used later, I think about 1970 as is the year of my head. My September 1970 dual shoman head has that more greenish color grill.
Rick

[basilhenriques]

New here so please excuse if this has been covered before. I dearly would like to know the age of a pair of D130's that I have.
One has 130 202 (Stencil on the cone) and serial No. 17759 16ohm and looks the same as this one (Sorry for stealing your image 57BELAIRE (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?u=1387)
The other is in the attic but similar numbers, I'll post them tomorrow.
Any help evaluating them would be most welcome.

Basil

:useless:

[Chack91990]

I have a JBL D130f s/n 6077 I'm trying to date. Anyone got any ideas?