Sub for 250ti

[FredEmmerich]

Any recommendations on what would be a good sub for a 2 channel system with 250ti's? I know the B460 was available at the same time but I have not seen any of those available. Any newer subs worthwhile, of are the 250's good without one?

Thanks

[Ian Mackenzie]

Try a search for the new JBL 1500 sub.


Ian

[jblnut]

Any recommendations on what would be a good sub for a 2 channel system with 250ti's? I know the B460 was available at the same time but I have not seen any of those available. Any newer subs worthwhile, of are the 250's good without one?

Thanks

I'm in the "they are good without one" camp. With enough power and a big enough room you can get tremendous bass out of them.

jblnut

[mike]

I don't think you need a sub with them. They have useable response down to around 30 Hz and they seem to handle a lot of power even at the lower frequencies.

I compared my 250Ti's to my father's big Polk SDA SRS 1.2's in the same room with the same amplifier and we were both shocked at how much more powerful and controlled the bottom end seemed on the 250Ti's. This comparison was made with a 200 watt per channel amp and about a 10 dB boost at 30 Hz. I did not notice any "bottoming out" and we were driving the speakers pretty hard.

Mike

[Ken Andrew]

Search for the post "Noise from BX63" where there are several comments from me and others on the merits of single or multiple sub-woofers and the benefits you may/could/will achieve.

I support others in suggesting the L250 don't require a sub-woofer for hi-fi.

The frequency doubling of 'cheap' sub-woofers becomes so obvious that you will be very disappointed from a bargain basement approach.

18 inch sub-woofers will damage your dry walls, shake all the ornaments, and generally upset your digestive system.

[Don Mascali]

18 inch sub-woofers will damage your dry walls, shake all the ornaments, and generally upset your digestive system.

Yeah, ain't it great.:applaud:

Seriously the addition of the lower octave with out having to stress your amp makes a HUGE difference in the percieved impact and dynamic range of all types off music and the improvement with HT goes without saying. I vote for stereo subs, the idea of not localizing sounds doesn't account for the frequencies above the crossover point. None are steep enough to cut them out. IMHO

[4313B]

A pair of these should do - HB5000 (http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/products/jbl_cons/hb5000.htm) ;)

[Titanium Dome]

1600 peak W? Sweet.


I guess 600W is the real number, still not too shabby.

[Alex Lancaster]

:) Actually 18 inchers are great for constipation :p .

[Zilch]

Actually, it can never hurt to add a pair of 15" 2235H driven B380's (in lieu of 18" B460) or Citation 7.4 equivalents (LE14H-1 or H-3 based) to most any system, and offload the VLF from the mains. JBL M552 24 dB/octave crossover, available lately on eBay for about $125, works nicely with it's /10 option engaged.

Alternatively, use BX63(A) if you can find it (WAY pricey) or build one to get the programmed 6 dB LF boost it provides at 26 Hz for B380/460. It sums to mono for sub output, though, a common practice, but not necessarily the best. For that, use JBL 5235 with frequency cards of your choice (18 dB/octave 80 Hz is standard) and mod its built-in LPF boost to 26 Hz. [Note: 4645C wants that, too.... :D ]

Power with JBL 6260 amp, also for $125 - $150 on eBay, and $60 worth of balanced line cables from the proaudio shop to tie it all together.

My system controller has sub outputs (summed mono, alas,) but no facility to remove the VLF from the mains that I can find, so the external crossover gives me the desired control. PLUS, it has a bunch of knobs and buttons for me to mess with. :p

[mrbluster]

I have a B460 as well as experience with quite a few lesser subwoofers. IMO with something like the 250's you would be moving backwards to add an "average sub" whether you rolled off your mains or not. I would focus on applying the best possible amplfication to your 250ti's and If still not satisfied, only then would I consider adding to the lowest octave with a very good subwoofer like the B460.

[Zilch]

Can we agree that a pair of B380's is not "lesser" to a single B460?

[4313B]

Best practice is to run at least two subs.

For music playback the 250Ti's shouldn't require subs at all. For DVD playback subs can enhance the experience. I've done the L250's and 250Ti's with single and dual B380's and B460's in a variety of rooms. More often than not, the subs were left turned off.

As for stock Citation 7.4's or PS1400's, they're too small for L250's or 250Ti's. Build custom boxes with the same volume and tuning as the L250/250Ti if you're going to use LE14H-1's or LE14H-3's. Nice alternative suggestion there Zilch. Smaller boxes than either the B380 or B460, similar bandwidth, and only 3rd order instead of 5th order VLF roll-off.

[jblnut]

Actually, it can never hurt to add a pair of 15" 2235H driven B380's (in lieu of 18" B460) or Citation 7.4 equivalents (LE14H-1 or H-3 based) to any system, and offload the VLF from the mains.

I'm not sure I know where you are coming from here. Why "offload" the bass from the LE14H-1's in the 250Ti just to send it to a different pair of the same ? Although I can't fathom it myself, I guess I can see someone adding a sub to some 250's with the purpose of getting a little more seismic activity. But that would only be for the sub-30hz region.

What would be the gain of crossing the 250's over (actively I assume) and sending the bass somewhere else ? Wouldn't that in essence waste the 250's superb capability for bass ?

Just curious....:)

jblnut

PS - Is it just me or are people not using enough power or space to hear their 250's properly ? My walls are still hurting from this weekend's amp testing session featuring Stevie Wonder's "Boogie on Reggae Woman" :applaud: .

[mrbluster]

Can we agree that a pair of B380's is not "lesser" to a single B460? Absolutely, and when you factor in placement flexibility and "room" issues, they may be superior.

[4313B]

Absolutely, and when you factor in placement flexibility and "room" issues, they may be superior.:yes:

PS - Is it just me or are people not using enough power or space to hear their 250's properly ?Probably both.

[Zilch]

I'm not sure I know where you are coming from here. Why "offload" the bass from the LE14H-1's in the 250Ti just to send it to a different pair of the same ? 250Ti's LE14H-1's are crossed at 400 Hz. Offload the sub-bass below 63 or 80 Hz, and boost it, as desired. :D

[GordonW]

I'm not sure I know where you are coming from here. Why "offload" the bass from the LE14H-1's in the 250Ti just to send it to a different pair of the same ? Although I can't fathom it myself, I guess I can see someone adding a sub to some 250's with the purpose of getting a little more seismic activity. But that would only be for the sub-30hz region.

What would be the gain of crossing the 250's over (actively I assume) and sending the bass somewhere else ? Wouldn't that in essence waste the 250's superb capability for bass ?



Well, if you "split it evenly" between the woofer in the 250Ti and the sub, you can get SUBSTANTIALLY less cone movement, which even with SFG motor woofers, will result in less distortion. Anything that reduces movement, will reduce intermodulation distortion! And with the 250Ti woofer handling up to around 250 Hz, it COULD, theoretically (though it's hard to imagine it being a really serious factor in use), modulate the upper bandwidth of the woofer if you're playing serious 30 Hz bass... so, it's not a bad idea, in a general sense.

Now, my problem with subs, is that I think that 2 subs are a MANDITORY thing. Stereo bass, it DOES improve the sound. Especially when you can park the subs NEAR the main cabinets... it matches the "time signature" of the bottom end (delay, room mode damping effect and such) of the sub to the main cabinet. I'd much prefer playing JUST the 250Ti's BY THEMSELVES to them with just a single mono sub, unless the goal was just cracking plaster without distortion...

Regards,
Gordon.

[Zilch]

As for stock Citation 7.4's or PS1400's, they're too small for L250's or 250Ti's. Build custom boxes with the same volume and tuning as the L250/250Ti if you're going to use LE14H-1's or LE14H-3's.I forget. Is LE14H-1 partitioned off in its own chamber in L250 designs?

[4313B]

No.

4.2 ft^3 tuned to 28 Hz.

[Robh3606]

I am surprised you feel the need. I use LE-14A's as subs tunned a bit higher 31Hz in 4 cubic feet and they ROCK!! The Le-14H's can only be better especially with their greater X-Max.


Rob:)

[FredEmmerich]

A pair of these should do - HB5000 (http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/products/jbl_cons/hb5000.htm) ;)

Wish I could read Japanese. How much are they? How big are they?