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JBL Dog
07-20-2003, 05:46 PM
I got a PM from a forum user wanting to know if a D8R475ND diaphragm is compatible with a 2445/6 driver? :hmm:

As previously stated, I'm a technical zero when it comes to this stuff
:banghead:

Thanks! :dancin:

This message comes from JBL Dog :band:

Earl K
07-21-2003, 08:39 AM
Hi JBL Dog
Here's some info that hopefully furthers your understanding of that diaphragm . You'll still need to ask JBL PRO for their opinion on this.
My guess is that the D8R475ND is the consumer equivalent to the D8R2450SL - of which I own a couple, fitted into 2440 motors . The 2450SL diaphragm is an Aquaplased Titanium type like the 475ND.
In one of the earlier forums it was stated that the dome curvature of the newer 2450SL diaphragm didn't match the curvature of the phase plug for the older 2440/1/5/6 series - I don't find that to be the case . My 2450sl diaphragms are successfully installed . One was an easy "slam-dunk" fitting, the other wasn't . The problematic installation was solved by creating 8 small paper stand-offs or shims to reside directly undeneath the 8 fitting bolts - between the diaphragms' plastic surround and the top-plate of the compression driver. These shims now simulate the builtin shims that were a permanent feature of the old 2440 diaphragms. Without the shims on this one driver, the 2450sl diaphragm sat too low and too close to the bakelite phase-plug. This was all very apparent when sweeping the combination with a tone generator. The tonal manifestation was a significant loss of output along with increased distortion in all band-pass areas.
A word of caution on using these diaphragms. They are quite "highly-damped" by the aquaplas coating. As such; all other electrical dampening elements in the playback chain should be rethought or tweeked . Some of the more significant elements include; conjugate resistors in passive crossover, L-pads, and capacitor types/configurations . This is a diaphragm that benefits from a "minimalist" approach if one can get away with it, IME .
Hope this helps a bit .

<> Earl K

Daniel B
07-21-2003, 12:37 PM
Earl,


small paper stand-offs or shims

Made from a cereal box or thinner?

dB

Don McRitchie
07-21-2003, 01:24 PM
The 475 and 2450 diapragms are not the same. There is at least the following difference. The 2450 has ribs built into the titanium dome for added strength. The 475 uses a smooth hemispherical dome.

Earl K
07-21-2003, 02:18 PM
Hi

Don; You're right, the 2450 diaphragm has ribs but the 2450SL diaphragm is different. It uses ; an Aquaplassed, rib-less dome .
Here's a picture of one of my 2450SL diaphragms in a 2440 motor .

db; Well you made me look. I cut up someones business card to make the shims . Additionally; one side needed to be raised more than the other ( 3 shims vs 1, oriented directly across the clock face ). Also, the shims are between the mounting bolts - not directly underneath .

- I need to caution; That people should stay away from such unsanctioned product combinations unless they are confident they can accept/handle any unforseen consequences of mucking about with such expensive components. Having a Tone Generator or Function Generator with experience in their use, is an absolute must . For instance; My combo is operating in a recently recharged 2440 magnet which means this diaphragm is likely working within a flux level that is above the recommended norm . The 475ND motor is 16500 gauss while the 2450SL is 18000 gauss - I believe. My motors might have as high as 20000 gauss. That extra 10% of gauss should increase HF distortion - though - I don't hear it .

<> Earl K

Robh3606
07-21-2003, 04:30 PM
Here's a ribbed one to see the difference. Looks just like my 093ti midranges.

Rob:)

Alex Lancaster
07-21-2003, 04:31 PM
Earl; Where do You get magnets re-magnetized, or better yet, how do You build a remagnetizer?

Is it a big "C" clamp affair with a coil?

Probably DC, I guess, but how much how long?

Pulse type?

Thanks.

JBL Dog
07-21-2003, 05:00 PM
Thanks all the responses and special thanks to Earl K! :wave:

Ironically, the diaphragm kits in the D8R475ND boxes are D8R2450SL's! I bought a bunch of stuff in a packaged deal. The whole time I thought I had the 475 kit. It would have been a mighty embarassing situation if I would have sold these to someone in the Far East. :spchless:

Thanks for the education!

This message comes from JBL Dog :band:

Earl K
07-21-2003, 05:39 PM
Hi All

JBL Dog; You're welcome! As far as I know, that diaphragm component is the only K2 inspired type that we "peasants" in North America are allowed to purchase . :montyp: ( Too bad the 275nd diaphragm is only rumoured to be somewhere out-there - lost at sea I suppose - :smthsail: - OKay, I'll quit my Harman policy bashing now :banghead: )

Alex; I have no idea how to build a magnetizer ( that will deliver that high a charge). I think all those who do know where scouped up by President R. Reagans "Star-Wars" R & D team ( these things are the infant brothers of "Rail-Guns" - so I'm told ). I've heard these things are worth at least $20,000. My magnets are sent out to a local reconer who then farms out the work . Really, because of shipping costs and cross-border "landing" taxes & duties, this type of work needs to be kept in the country. In your case, you're probably best to deal with someone in the LA area like JBL Pro or Orange County Speakers (http://www.SpeakerRepair.com/services.html) if there's no one in Mexico .

RobH; Nice Picture ! Where's the rest of that 2450 assembly ?

- Are your 093Ti, the same 100mm diameter ( or are they 93 mm ) with the same ribbing topology as a 2450 ? I remember studio guys saying/and demonstrating how a 2440 - flipped 180 around - with the back-cap removed -made a very nice hi-mid direct radiator.
This old practice seems to have been the inspiration :idea: for those sought after ATC 3" soft-dome mids and the now embargoed Dynaudio D-54 and D-76 - large coil mids .

regards <> Earl K

Robh3606
07-21-2003, 08:22 PM
Hello Earl

"Nice Picture ! Where's the rest of that 2450 assembly ?"

Thanks not mine though! I grab good E-Bay pictures from time to time.

"Are your 093Ti, the same 100mm diameter ( or are they 93 mm ) with the same ribbing topology as a 2450 ?"

No the whole diaphram is about 4" but the VC is 3 " The ribs look the same I attached a picture but it's hard to see.


I remember studio guys saying/and demonstrating how a 2440 - flipped 180 around - with the back-cap removed -made a very nice hi-mid direct radiator.

Thats about what it is and it does sound nice. I remember those big soft dome midranges. Sounded very nice from what I recall.

scott fitlin
07-22-2003, 09:11 PM
How do those 2450sl phragms sound in the 40,s? can you describe the differences in sound from the 40 or 41 phragm? Id really like to know!

I must admit, that little tweak looks REALLY cool! :bouncy:

Earl K
07-23-2003, 07:57 AM
Hi Scott

I'll need some time to do another set of comparisons. Maybe first, I'll post what "I think I remember" :hmm: from the last shoot-out .

regards <. Earl K:cheers:

Earl K
07-23-2003, 07:17 PM
Hi Scott
As promised, here's my subjective opinion / bias about JBLs' larger format / 4" metal diaphragms .
I find them all ( excluding the 2450SL & 2482 ) to sound somewhat underdamped ( & that includes the 2441 ). I've never listened to a "bubble-backed" 375 ( or the other K2 diaphragms ) so I have no opinion there . I'm talking about listening to them in smaller rooms and not in large areas where the air volume helps mitigate some of these impressions . It's somewhat like " Don't point that thing at me !!! " :die: or " I'm out of here " :dancin: .
That's usually my thought process when confronted with these large beasts ( on small or big horn or softened up by diffusers) . My Altec 288-8K drivers aren't like this ( of course, that dome has only 1/2 the surface area which immediately rebalances the all important paper to metal ratio ) . The 2450SL/2440 has the ability "to get up close & personal" without it being hurtful :biting: . Maybe my combos are actually in a misfit situation with the whole drivers ( especially 1st gear ) torque curve thrown out of whack . Don't know / won't know until that time comes that they ever do a high level SR job - but not planning on that . I do know I like this combo alot . :bouncy:

regards <. Earl K

scott fitlin
07-23-2003, 09:47 PM
I think I understand what you are getting at! I have used `41,s for years. And although they are great, they can get a bit blarey if pushed hard.

I did think about doing this, before I made my purchasing decision, but once I heard the " other " three letter brand compression driver I was doomed!

Same basic thing for me! Upclose and personal sound that doesnt hurt you, yet has outstanding transient response and extraordinary clarity!

Also, the diaphragms of my new drivers have some sort of what appears to be like a black netting on the back of the diaphragm.

Earl K
07-24-2003, 05:53 AM
Hi Scott
Glad you like your 4002s. In my case, I've been ruined, in as much as I have a tough time listening to 1.75" diaphragms ( no matter who makes them ) - the loss in resolution or clarity is just too great to accept - when I know I can easily restore it by just grabbing some larger format drivers (off the proverbial shelf).

In addition to the berylium diaphragm , I think the addition of the 5th slit in the 4001/2 phasing plug makes a big difference to the response of the large TAD drivers. Even the Radian replacement diaphragm ( the 1292 ) has roughly an extra 10 db of top end when compared to the JBL replacement type. Both Radian types use a .08 mm aluminum dome with mylar surround - strongly implying, it's not all about the metal type.

I've heard those mesh screens on the back of the diaphragms are a protection feature in case the dome ever particalizes ( I believe the theory was to prevent the berylium parts from being inhaled - since berylium oxides are cancerous ). For a hoot, here's a picture of an early "blast-screen" - this is from a 50s vintage RCA driver meant for naval duty . I might eventually turn these 180 and create a phenolic based, 093 standin .

regards <> Earl K

scott fitlin
07-24-2003, 02:52 PM
Cool pics! I might convert my old `41,s so Ive a second set of premium drivers! I was always under the impression that the surround has alot to do with things! The 2440 had the rolled surround, and the 2441 had the diamond pleat surround that lowered distortion in the high frequencys!

Thanks for all the pics and info! :rockon2:

Tom Loizeaux
07-28-2003, 04:58 PM
deleated

sa660
07-29-2003, 06:35 AM
I recenlty found a working WE30150 in the west of ireland.
A french man offer me to swap with a pair of WE2093. They look like dome medium speaker!!!
Do any one knows anything about them?:confused:
In the backgroung you can see Vitavox S2 for size comparison.

What will be the frequency responce and efficiency of the 2450 is use as front radiating dome?:confused:
Do you need to close the throt?


Regards,

Earl K
07-29-2003, 09:44 AM
Hi Richard

Very Cool ! But, I don't know anything about that driver. Tannoy made separate compression drivers in the late 50s. But though they share that finish they are more the size of an Altec 802. Here's a very low res. pic of a pair of Tannoy ( Silver era ) drivers with horns that sold on eBay ( $ 3400.00 ) a couple of years back. The seller was ebw@hifitown.com .

Pardon my ignorance , what's a Westrex 2093 ? :p

The efficiency of the 2450 turned around with the back cap off ? I don't know,
just it'll be a lot less. That's a really, really expensive way to make a midrange driver. A self-enclosed high quality midrange HiFi driver, typically has a bit more air cavity behind the cone or dome than what's in the throat & phase plug of the typical driver. Yes , the throat would need to be very tightly sealed so that any pressure in the enclosure ( from the bass wave ) didn't destroy your diaphragm by sending it on an unauthorized flight ( assuming the 2450 was mounted in the woofer cabinet ) .

regards <> Earl K :)

Mr. Widget
07-29-2003, 10:07 AM
"What will be the frequency responce and efficiency of the 2450 is use as front radiating dome?
Do you need to close the throt?"


Twenty years ago after replacing the diaphragm in one of my LE85s I set it on top of the cabinet with the back cover removed and listened to it for a while as a 1.75" dome speaker.

Since it sounded surprisingly good I adjusted the woofer output and set up the other side in the same fashion. I listened to this set up for a few days and liked it better than my LE85s through their HL91 exponential horns. Since they were so expensive and I didn't fully trust my ears, I sold them and moved over to Dynaudio dome based systems for the next almost 2 decades. Now I enjoy both dome and horn systems.
I haven't tried the large 4" dome drivers, but it might be worth playing with. One issue is the difficulty in mounting these drivers as they obviously were not designed to be used without a horn.