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4313B
02-21-2005, 02:59 PM
2240H versus 2245H (white)

4313B
02-21-2005, 03:01 PM
2241H versus 2245H (white)

4313B
02-21-2005, 03:02 PM
2242H versus 2245H (white)

mikebake
02-21-2005, 03:34 PM
Interesting; spkrmn57 better have a look! Ha! He likes the 2240; sez it's punchier and he doesn't need better than low 40's.

Mr. Widget
02-21-2005, 04:00 PM
Interesting; spkrmn57 better have a look! Ha! He likes the 2240; sez it's punchier and he doesn't need better than low 40's.


If those are your requirements then use 2226s! Punchier still!!


Personally I like to know that the whales off the coast are enjoying my music, so I'll stay with the Sub1500s. :D

Widget

mikebake
02-21-2005, 05:47 PM
If those are your requirements then use 2226s! Punchier still!!


Personally I like to know that the whales off the coast are enjoying my music, so I'll stay with the Sub1500s. :D

Widget

I believe he is focused on 18's right now. He also has a system with 2226's that he still uses and likes regularly. He also has/had an Edgarhorn system; not sure if he still does.

boputnam
02-21-2005, 05:56 PM
Nice, Giskard!!

Once I found the 2245's - in a proper cabinet, of course - the hunt was over. :bouncy:

4313B
02-21-2005, 06:00 PM
Personally I like to know that the whales off the coast are enjoying my music, so I'll stay with the Sub1500s. :DNot everyone bought ten pairs. :p

My understanding was that he has what he has and wanted to know what to expect.

spkrman57
02-21-2005, 08:18 PM
My understanding was that he has what he has and wanted to know what to expect.Today 06:56 PM



You have it right Giskard, I already have 2226's/Altec 416's and others. The 2240 solution fits my wallet and my requirements.

I have 2226's and like what they do for me. I think the 2240's will do for me what I want also. And they are available to me at a price I can afford.

If the money and availability of 2240's were different, I might look at the 2241 or 2242, but I can get the 2240's at a good price due to a friends generousity.

I can't tell from the graphs how far off the 2245's and 2240's are, but I am guessing I can get 40hz bottom end from the 2240's which is good enough for me.

I had a pair of 2245's and don't care for the heavey cone and foam surround. I know that is petty thinking to some of you, but I also have several other drivers around my house and like to try different ideas from time to time, and this is one of them.

For me on this project run with 45 SET 2 watts/chnl, the 98 db efficiency will work well.

Thanks Giskard for understanding my needs on this project, and to Mike for the great cabinets that I will be using.

Ron

GordonW
02-21-2005, 09:13 PM
Huh. Looks like low-Q, low-resonance drivers win again. I've noticed that with passive radiators very plainly, but haven't gone through enough iterations of drivers to get that "feel" for drivers themselves.

Speaking of that, here's an SPL graph of a project I just finished. Not JBL products, but anyone care to speculate on the effective group delay of THIS system? With a box-resonance of about 14-15 Hz, I don't think MUCH of it is in the AUDIBLE spectrum at all!! And it's capable of over 110 dB at 20 Hz, PER CABINET of a pair. The passive radiator, in this case, had a self-resonance of like 4.25 Hz... not much contribution to the transfer function, ANYWHERE it could POSSIBLY matter...

Regards,
Gordon.

spkrman57
02-22-2005, 08:15 AM
I noticed some folks thinking that this would be my "end all" system for the ages. Well actually the 2240 will replace the 80hz Edgar mid-bass horn(JBL 2205A) due to the small room I have and Bruce recommends that horns be no closer than 1 wavelength to the listener, that would be approx 14 ft. My living room is only 12' x 16' which would be difficult for the midbass horn to perform at its peak. I have had it set up and noticed it is the weakest link.

I also don't want to bother with a sub in the system(another item to phase into the mess).

For punchy music, I have my 4 Pi-pro clones(2226 + Altec 902/650hz Edgarhorn round wooden tractix with Pi crossover) I have had this system for some time and it performs well.

Altec A7 components if I wanted to put together, but the 4 Pi-pro surpasses on the "fun-meter", and much smaller too.

I also have JBL 4311A control monitors/JBL D123 + 075 + N2400 crossover in 1958 GE corner cabinet/a few Audio Concept AC-12 and Dynaudio D28AF 2-ways with my cabs and crossovers(1st order).

I also have the parts to build most anything I need. I have several 2226 drivers and 4648 cabinets. I use 4 of these as a box spring for my bed(saves storage room also).

So now with the economics of getting 2240's at a great price(read cheaply here!), and just yesterday picked up Mike's cabs he had for his 2245's, and I am all set up in a week or two to add my Edgarhorn 350hz horn with Altec 288 driver, and 075 on top, all with 1st order crossover.

If this does not work to my expectations, I can always sell the 2240's and find a pair of different 18" drivers to use. I like to experiment(hence the moniker: spkrman57), so this is another of my pipe dreams to check out and evaluate.

Thank you all for your opinions, and Mr Widget, if I needed to let the fish know what I am doing, I would take my 8 2226's and install them in the 4648 cabinets and get a 2kw/chnl amp and blow out my windows.

But my preference is for using single ended amps with less than 10 watts/chnl into high efficiency speakers for a very "glorious" sound!!!!!

Regards, Ron :applaud: :) :) :applaud:

mikebake
02-22-2005, 10:02 AM
Thank you all for your opinions, and Mr Widget, if I needed to let the fish know what I am doing, I would take my 8 2226's and install them in the 4648 cabinets and get a 2kw/chnl amp and blow out my windows.

But my preference is for using single ended amps with less than 10 watts/chnl into high efficiency speakers for a very "glorious" sound!!!!!

Regards, Ron :applaud: :) :) :applaud:

Personally, I like to drive worms up from their winter hibernation burrow............while derailing subways.

mikebake
02-22-2005, 10:05 AM
Furthermore, Ron, do not bite the Widget hand that feeds, or I shall be forced to have Columbus City Council declare your house an audio museum, and evict you........:D

Actually, why don't you post some house/gear photos in another thread. That would be fun!

spkrman57
02-22-2005, 11:03 AM
I guess I just jumped a little too quick in response to his comment.

And Mike, I will have to post some pics of the museum when I can figure out how to work my digital camera and save pics in my pc.

I bought the pc 2nd hand and somehow deleted driver cards(???) which allow printers/cameras/etc.....I am pc illiterate(my day job is mainframe operator/recovery which is a defferent world).

Mr Widget, do you accept my apologies????? I am sorry for my remarks!!!


Ron

Mr. Widget
02-22-2005, 12:06 PM
I wasn't offended, but thanks just the same.

We all have different audio needs. (desires) Personally I like the idea of high efficiency and low watts, but so far all of the variations on that theme I've heard have had too much personality for my taste. (nice way of saying colored sound)

Widget

spkrman57
02-22-2005, 12:15 PM
I like the JBL 2226 in a reflex cab, single coil to tame rising response(2226H=.7 mh) and a 1" compression driver(Altec 802/902/806 or JBL 2426) on 650hz round wooden tractix horn(Edgarhorn that is). Using 3rd order crossover with HF compensation sounds very nice in my room(smallish at 12' x 16' w/8 ft ceilings).

When I run with 45 SET amp, I keep the coil on the 2226, and run a 4 ufd oil cap for the HF horn. The setup is a little bit hot, but for low level listening in a small room has great soundstage for classical and I can hear great detail.

I ran a powered sub with the last setup some time back and it tamed some of the HF hot sizzle.

Ron

Guido
02-23-2005, 03:00 PM
Speaking of that, here's an SPL graph of a project I just finished. Regards,
Gordon.

Please post pics Gordon! :bouncy:

aust-ted
02-24-2005, 03:41 AM
Hi

I am currently using 15 cu ft cabs with dual 2235Hs installed and tuned to Fs (20 Hz) and am happy with the outcome though they do take up some space. What attracted me was the extra efficiency of dual drivers, the lower distortion which I was advised I would get both by tuning to Fs, and by using dual speakers. I mainly listen to classical music and it often benefits from low freq extension.

Can anyone provide an insight into what would be the difference between a large box with one 2245 compared to a pair of 2235s? That is assuming each was properly tuned.

I never seriously looked at the 2245s because EBS alignments appeared huge and I needed to construct boxes with limited vertical height so I could place decent size mid horns on top and preserve my listening position.

Regards
Ted

4313B
02-24-2005, 07:43 AM
15 cu ft tuned to 20 Hz

Red is dual 2235H's and green is single 2245H

4313B
02-24-2005, 07:45 AM
Incidentally, BB6P wants 13.25 cu ft tuned to 22 Hz for dual 2235H's and 14.26 cu ft tuned to ~ 21 Hz for their version of extended bass.

Zilch
02-24-2005, 09:19 AM
An old rule-of-thumb says it takes two 15's to do what a single 18 will do.

In most respects, apparently, with equivalent drivers, that ain't far off....

spkrman57
02-24-2005, 12:32 PM
The dual 2235's perform close to the 2245. Looks like a good way to go.
Ron

aust-ted
02-25-2005, 04:47 AM
Giskard

Thanks very much for modelling the dual 2235s v 2245. Most appreciated.

As Zilch says, it is amazing how accurate some of these rules of thumb are.

Thing that interested me most is that the dual 2235s appear to require less cone displacement.

Regards
Ted

Tom Loizeaux
03-06-2005, 03:58 PM
Though I'm just looking to learn about the 2245H compared to the 2242H, I must say that your responses to questions is invaluable! Your graphs really tell the story. Without them we'd be lost in opinions.
Again, I thank you for your contributions to the Forum!

Tom

Earl K
03-06-2005, 04:49 PM
Again, I thank you for your contributions to the Forum!

Here ! Here ! or is that? Hear ! Hear ! :D

Anyways : Ditto :)

:cheers:

boputnam
03-06-2005, 06:36 PM
Here ! Here ! or is that? Hear ! Hear ! :D Bingo.

spkrman57
03-07-2005, 05:28 AM
I appreciate all the technical help.
Ron

Alex Lancaster
03-07-2005, 07:49 AM
:) "Thing that interested me most is that the dual 2235s appear to require less cone displacement".

xmax of 2235 = 8.38, power 150 W.
xmax of 2245 = 9.65, power 300 W.

So they end up moving about the same air; I suspect the xmach mechanical of the 2245 is even more, proportionally.

4313B
03-07-2005, 08:37 AM
Vd for the dual 2235H's is 1514 cu cm while Vd for the single 2245H is 1230 cu cm.


I thank you for your contributions to the Forum!

Anyways : Ditto :)

Bingo.

I appreciate all the technical help.
Thanks.

jtgyn
03-07-2005, 05:55 PM
G'Day All,
A very interesting thread.

Thanks Giskard for sharing your technical insight, great stuff!

Regards Scott

spkrman57
05-15-2005, 10:50 AM
After actually having these for a short time and listening to them straight without any other drivers/crossovers, they seem to have a nice rolloff and I want to try to put my Altec 399/311-60 horns on top and see how it sounds even though it might be too light on the bottom end.

I got a new PC, a dell and will have it running this week some time. If everything goes well I can post some pics of my toys.

I also will get the new version of woofer tester II and BassBoxPro that goes with it. My old pc is dying a slow death and not worth putting any $$$ in it anymore.

I should have results next week on this 2-way experiment, crossover might be at 800hz for starters.

Ron

spkrman57
09-20-2005, 06:36 AM
I will get pics one of these days, but for now will have to just verbally describe my system.

In the center I have the 9 cu ft/w 2242 powered by PE 250 watt sub plate amp.

On either side is a 3677 cabinet(upside down to put the driver off the ground) with E130/2225 recone w/1.2 mh coil.

On top of those is a Edgarhorn(wooden round 650hz tractix) with 902 driver w/3 caps paralleled(2 ufd oil/12 ufd MPT/.68 ufd MPP) into a 8 ohm L-pad.

When I 1st tried to use the sub woofer plate amp from the speaker signals I had a bad phasing problem that I could not adjust out. So I had a WAG that it could no hurt to take the signal from the LF driver right after the 1.2 mh coil. I thought it might not work due to back EMF from the (E130)2225 driver.

Well to make a long story short, the sub now is fairly seamless in transition with the 2225's in the 3677 cabs. I ran the WT2 on the 2225's in 3677's and found fsb to be around 58 hz. I know everyone had discussed how the E130/2225 hybrid would react, and most wanted to use it for bottom end. Well I have found that I like having the 2242 take care of everything from approx 60hz-70hz, and the rolloff of the 2225 hybrid really blends the bass/midbass response.

I am only using a 45 SET powered amp for 2 wpc which is why I am running the 1st order crossover. Future plans include 399 driver(1.4" GP) on 500hz Edgar round wooden tractix horn.

I will try and add another 4 ufd of capacitance to my HF crossover section to see if the driver handles it without complaining.

I think this sounds almost as good as when I had the full Edgarhorn system(minus the sub-horn). My most limiting factor is the 12' x 16' living room in which the system is physically located in. Bill Epstein visited last Saturday and maybe he can chime in with his opinions.

I would like to point out that 2 threads were very much appreciated by me in putting my system together, this one and the 2225 hybrid one. Both have much technical info from "Giskard" and other notables that led me to look forward to some of these hybrid drivers(E130/225).

Also down the line if I can get my 150hz midbass horn running, I will see how terrible the 2242 sounds when raising the LF crossover frequency. Right now I am at approx 60hz/70hz, but I do change that depending on what music selections I pick. Older rock that are of less quality a recording, I raise the freq and increase the gain levels. Of course mostly this is music for fun, not exactly audiophile grade recordings.

Ron

spkrman57
10-01-2005, 07:39 AM
I am finally getting the 2242's broken in enough for the bottom octave response to start coming through smoothly. When new, the 2242's tend to have a bit of a midbass bloom to them(typical of most new drivers).

I have a small listening room and I am really enjoying what the 2242 does with even a low power environment. My PE sub plate amp(250w @ 4 ohm/approx 170 w @ 8 ohm), is loafing. With only 2 wpc mains at 99db(approx), the live music cd's I play have that effortless sound which threatens to rip your head off with the peaks that occur at times.

I hope to have the other 2242 set up and run in stereo sub mode, just have to endure another month or two of breaking that one in also.

Pipe organ music will give you a "religious" experience which some friends of mine left and told me they could not play their own audio system at home for some time as it lacked the dynamics and slam they heard at my house.

The only excursion I ever see on the 2242 is when I am really getting up to the 40 watt level or higher, but the bass is there even when the cone seems to not move at all.


I missed out on the sub1500's, but overall I think the "LARGER THAN LIFE" effect of the 18" in a large cabinet has me thinking that it would take much more drive to make the sub1500's keep up with the 2242!

Thanks to Mike Baker and Giskard for me ending up with this direction with my system!!!!! :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:


Regards, Ron

4313B
12-26-2005, 08:03 AM
Yeah, the 2242 and 2245 are pretty effortless in a typical home environment.

spkrman57
12-27-2005, 12:26 PM
As nice as the 2235 is, and I understand the 4430 is running up to 1khz, I have to say the 2242 is a different animal all its own.

With the 2242 running, I wish I had a larger room to let it really open up past the anemic (less than)100 watt levels I am using. And that would be peaks, not continous levels. I would be scared to run more than that in my house, I think the foundation could be damaged:blink:

Ron

Izzy Weird
12-27-2005, 02:19 PM
Id like to chime in hare and thank Giskard as well, both for the technical info on the 2245, as well as the other thread on tweeters like the 2405.


Regards,
http://izzyweird.com/images/eyes1.jpg
Izzy

spkrman57
07-30-2006, 07:35 PM
Furthermore, Ron, do not bite the Widget hand that feeds, or I shall be forced to have Columbus City Council declare your house an audio museum, and evict you........:D

Actually, why don't you post some house/gear photos in another thread. That would be fun!

Mains are JBL 2226J in "Epstein" built cabinets with Altec 806-8A driver on 811B horns. Horn enclosure is separate from the 2226J's which are in 3.5 cubic ft enclosure with (2) 4" ports 6.5" long. I stuffed foam in one of them the rid myself of hump at approx 60 - 70hz.

In the center is a JBl 2242 18" sub in Giskard built cabinet!

Ron