Home cinema surround with Prof.

[paragon]

Want to build a home cinema surround system with old alnico JBL pro chassis.
LE 85, 075, LE 10A... What do you think ?

[whgeiger]

P,

The LE10A does not 'balance' well with the output of the LE85.

To match output of the LE85, recommend use of a 10” driver with a higher sensitivity and resonant frequency, such as the 2012H or 2251J.

In any case, add 18" driver(s) such as 2242H to cover the bottom end (below say 80-100 Hz.).

The 10" drivers considered here simply do not have sufficient volume displacement capability to get the job done for this venue.

Regards,

WHG

[paragon]

Thanks WHG.

[yggdrasil]

Hi


I think you are on the right track here.

WHG is of course right regarding the .1 channel.

I have done some thinking on this myself. One thought was running a single 2441 on a large horn for the rear and center... But when asking others running surround systems the feedback is that some real low frequencies might come out of all channels, meaning you'll need a woofer.

My father tested a surround setup 15 years ago. It was a 6 channel system with a paragon as main speaker and 4 small monitors(Yamaha I think). It was thrown away after a few weeks due to the great difference in sound on the various speakers.
Depending on the distance to the back wall and number of viewers / listeners you might need a better horizontal dispersion than the 075 offers. or of course you can use several 075's in each speaker.

I would be careful with bass response in the rear channels.

Keep us posted, and good luck.

PS! My wife was chocked when I represented similar thoughts to her 2-3 years ago. All I could tell her was that we now have a small solution, it will only grow bigger :duel:

[paragon]

Thanks Johnny, it´s only at the beginning and i need more speakers and a surround receiver and so on. Only want to know what speakers may i use.
If possible i want to use (nearly) the same drivers for main, center and back.
Will use 2410, LE 85, 2402 or 2405 and High eff. bass drivers (not LE 10A).

Eckhard

[GordonW]

Well, if you wanted, you could probably use TWO LE10As per cabinet, with an LE85 and a 075. You'd still have to L-pad the horns and bullets, but it'd be much closer to an acoustic match.

The only caveat, is that a pair of LE10s in parallel, is a HARD 4 ohm load. I would be more comfortable with this setup, using an amp that is 2 OHM STABLE... which would rule out most HT receivers, except for stuff like NAD and a few others with REALLY BEEFY amps. Or, I'd use an outboard amplifier (from the preamp outs of a HT 5.1 source) that was 2 ohm stable, on the channels using the LE10A's. This would result in a bass section that would be about 98.5 dB sensitivity @ 2.83 volts (the equivalent voltage of one watt into 8 ohms)... which should match the sensitivity of an LE85 fairly well.

I did a quick cabinet calculation... two LE10As in 4 cubic feet total volume, with two 3" diameter vents per box, each 6.5" long, would give an f3 of about 35 Hz, and full acoustic power handling (not displacement limited) down to the rolloff point. My program says each cabinet should be able to do in excess of 108 dB on the bottom end, in-room... probably HIGHER if the cabinets were filtered at 60 Hz or so.

Or, you could use two LE10A's in a SEALED cabinet of about 2 to 2.5 cubic feet, stuffed with fiberglass... an F3 of about 55 Hz, with full acoustic power handling (again, no displacement limitation) down the the rolloff point. That, with an 80 or 100 Hz crossover frequency to a subwoofer, should work fine...

Regards,
Gordon.

[GordonW]

If available, I'd definitely use 2405/077s over 2402/075s. Much better horizontal dispersion. One per cabinet would definitely work. Also, the 2404 might be a good choice... sometimes, they're available cheaper than the 2402s or 2405s, and they have an even BIGGER dispersion angle...

Regards,
Gordon.

[paragon]

Thanks Gordon,
Is this what you get with your sim ?

[GordonW]

Thanks Gordon,
Is this what you get with your sim ?

Roughly. I think the sim I did, was with the assumption of more box-fill in the box, than the one you did. Feel free to increase the port length, to counter-act that "bump" just before rolloff...

Regards,
Gordon.

[Kim L]

Just 'cause you might be interested...I am running L100T mains with four L100 as surrounds and a DefTech SupercubeII handling 40hz down to I guess its rated 14hz. Sounds great to me, but then I am not an audiophile since I love my L100's...I am one of the Hoard.

I was running an SVA Center and L20t3's in the back, but replaced them with L100A's once I was able to procure a very nice pair. This was a MAJOR improvement, having the full range all the way round.

My other pair are Centuries but I don't(can't) hear a phase problem. Speaking of phase, the Supercube has a nice continuous phase adjustment which I can adjust to all those 12" woofers. DVD Audio and SACD sound awesome too, but watching the Star Wars THX dvd's with this setup rattles the neighborhood with just a 60watt avr. Gee, I might even buy some shielded interconnects now...

[Robh3606]

Hello Kim

"was running an SVA Center and L20t3's in the back, but replaced them with L100A's once I was able to procure a very nice pair. This was a MAJOR improvement, having the full range all the way round."

I am running L20T's as rears. I would like to go fullrange all around. Just not practical for me. Not enough room:(

"I am not an audiophile since I love my L100's...I am one of the Hoard."

Well aren't we all???

Rob;)

[Kim L]

Thanks Rob,

Sorry about the "Hoard" comment. I just think that the senior forum members need to do more to embrace the L100 users and teach them how-to refurbish their speakers and even improve them; then "graduate" them to the high-end vintage Jbl world, and current if Harman has any sense. The long term health of any business or organization is dependent upon the patronage of its newbies.

The "parting out" of an L100 on ebay should be a tragedy.

Here is another crazy tip for you:

You are not a true member of the Hoard unless you also have the JBL Creature II system in addition to your L100's. Now do this:
1) buy a 10ft stereo mini-plug extension cable;
2) remove your Creature from your computer and place them in a sitting room in this manner - ear height while sitting, the little downfiring sub in a corner (still at sitting ear height), use the extension to place the satellites 12+ft apart;
3) connect an Apple Express WAP to the Creature;
4) Using your wireless laptop and iTunes, play Celtic harp or Joshua Bell from CD thru the Creatures.

The most frequent comment from friends and family will be:"Where is the music coming from? That sounds wonderful!" But do not expect to impress an audiophile, remember this is a Hoard activity. When I played Help Me, Ten Years After, for my unsuspecting sister-in-law, it was "God, I love this house!", while looking all around. What the Creatures lack in SPL is made up for in imagery.

Cheers,
Kim

[Titanium Dome]

The "parting out" of an L100 on ebay should be a tragedy.


Cheers,
Kim

Agreed. It appears that most of the parting out, whether L100s, L300s, or whatever, is done to increase the overall return to the seller. While this makes economic sense, it also reveals a complete lack of a soul on the part of the greed controlled demons who do this. :biting:


All right, that was a bit harsh, but at least it's pretty clear how I feel about the practice. I really don't despise, hate, and loathe the people who do this ...or do I? :hmm:


:thnkfast:

[Earl K]

Hi Eckhard

- You haven't yet said which front speakers these surround speakers need to support .

- Is it your setup that uses the 4530/2205 along with the 2441/2397 combo ?

- Having to keep it all Alnico does complicate things some, is Alnico really necessary ?

:cheers:

[4313B]

The "parting out" of an L100 on ebay should be a tragedy.

Agreed. It appears that most of the parting out, whether L100s, L300s, or whatever, is done to increase the overall return to the seller. While this makes economic sense, it also reveals a complete lack of a soul on the part of the greed controlled demons who do this. :biting:


All right, that was a bit harsh, but at least it's pretty clear how I feel about the practice. I really don't despise, hate, and loathe the people who do this ...or do I? :hmm:


:thnkfast:I want the JBL components. I don't want the tired old used up stinky enclosures with them, especially L100 enclosures which are so easy to build.
Now if they are something like L300's or XPL Series enclosures... :p

[Kim L]

Of course cabinets can get to the point that the components are better used removed, I agree...just hate to see a perfectly good L100 parted out. Maybe that is not happening as much as I think. A list of new replacement components would help.

[porschedpm]

I know I'm going to open myself up to criticism, but I like the classic look of the L100 and have upgraded the components as follows:

Replace the woofer with a 128H-1 (white cone) or 128H (black cone).
Replace the midrange with a 104H-2 or 104H-3
Replace the tweeter with a 035Ti or 035TiA (both require minor trimming of the cabinet and the plastic tweeter fascia plate to get them to fit.)
Replace the crossover with that from a L100T. (Note this bypasses the L pads)
What I end up with are components similar to a 4412 (or 4412A) except for the crossover which is from the L100T and easier to find. I did the first pair primarily because I had an empty pair of L100's and already had all the components except for the crossovers. My goal was to end up with a speaker for my garage that sounded better than the L100's that I was using. What I ended up is a speaker that has tighter, more accurate bass (still punchy though) and much more extended highs than the L100's. I also did a pair for a friend of mine and although we used 2213H's instead for the woofers to better match his 4312A's, he's quite happy with them. I myself prefer the 128H-1 woofers because they seem less bloated and more accurate than the 2213H's. The L100T crossovers (pn 66426-60) I admit are a compromise. I used them because 1) they were easy to source-new from JBL or used on eBay, 2) have the same crossover points as the 4412, and 3) I didn't need to mess around with wiring in the L-Pads. However, if you can find 4412 (or 4412A w/no L-pads) crossovers I would certainly recommend using them but I've not been able to find any. My opinion is that this, taken as a whole, is viable upgrade to the L100. Keep in mind though I am by no means a technical guru on this Forum and all this is all based on my casual observation and not any empirical evidence. So opinions may differ and your results my vary.

[Zilch]

Sellers are parting out L100's and equivalent three-ways frequently, like Kim says.

As Ed suggests, acquiring those tired old stinky cabinets that appear on eBay and giving them new life as *real* speakers using available (often inexpensive) alternative drivers is indeed a worthy endeavor.

Some of the refinishing jobs I've seen on this forum just knock me OUT! It seems enormously fulfilling, such a project. :)

[035Ti's are GOOD, yup, yup!]

[Earl K]

Home cinema surround with Prof.
:wtf:

- This thread was supposed to be about component suggestions for Paragons cinema "surround: system .

But once again the L100 "virus" :eek: has created another :offtopic: thread<<<<>>>>:hate-pc: .

BTW "porschedpm" ; I would have done all the same mods to any L100s in my path , excepting perhaps, starting all mods with a timely "drop-kick" - just out of basic priciple . :D

:cheers:

[Kim L]

Earl K,

Oops, hope you are not sorry that you helped me out on that other thread. I really appreciate it. I am trying to broaden my JBL horizon.

Kim

[Earl K]

Oops, hope you are not sorry that you helped me out on that other thread.

Nope, I'm not sorry . :D

I much prefer 14" woofs over 12" . I did read all your postings ( to do an ersatz background on you ) after I made my initial suggestions . So now I realize you already use a lot of 12" woofs like the L100ts / L100 Centurys and the L20ti3 ( that you mentioned ) . That's all helpful to know up front .


Anyways this thread is once again offtopic. :dont-know