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View Full Version : The seeming demise of JBL OEM parts... and the subsequent devaluation of a brand?



GordonW
07-16-2003, 12:04 AM
I've been thinking about this one for a while...

Recently, I was brought a pretty ubiquitous repair to do... a pair of L100 Centurys needing tweeter kits. I contacted the local JBL service center guy to place an order, and while talking to him, we got into the whole issue of JBL, seemingly NOT wanting to deal with much of ANY of their vintage products anymore. Things like the now-common 6-9 month wait for recone kits to go thru production, complete discontinuation of entire bunches of kits, and the like. In the service guy's words, he was warning me that the situation was getting WORSE, not better. As in, we may need to start stocking up now, 'cuz if the fat lady ain't singing, she's at least doing her pre-concert gargling with salts and such...

What we were musing on, was the consequence of said ditching of old stuff, on the PERCIEVED VALUE of JBL as a brand in general. IMHO and IME, a LOT of the value seen in buying JBL, has been their SERVICABILITY, and the EXPECTATION that when you bought one, you were getting it for the LONG HAUL. Sure, a number of recent products have been kinda "disposable"... you blow a driver, you can only get a whole replacement driver for them, and such. But, there's still the AIR of COMPANY BACKING... and I'll suffice to say, that once this is gone, we're gonna see the bottom fall out of a LOT of used (AND new) JBL product percieved value, and therefore, the price that can be charged and willingly paid.

In short, I'd really hate to see JBL pull an Altec Professional Products... the main reason, IMHO, that JBL completely cleaned Altec's clock in the '80s, was exactly this- SERVICE...

(Whoo boy... I guess I'd better batten down the hatches with this one. If this doesn't generate a firestorm of words, then what will?? :bomb: :D )

Regards,
Gordon.

ps: anyone got any LE25 kits they can spare, or plan to order any soon? JBL says they have like 15 orders in the queue, of like probably 50 or more needed for them to run off a batch...
:banghead:

JBL Dog
07-16-2003, 12:59 AM
I've been waiting since January for some LE14a recone kits to go back into production.

I was told they would be shipped in May!

Isn't it July already?? :wtf:


I've being buying some parts on Ebay (for cheap) just to have for use or resale in the future.

Anyone need a pair of NOS D8R475ND diaphram kits? I don't even own the driver it goes to. But, they're already obsolete. Blow one up and you're pretty much SOL. :cooked:

This message comes from JBL Dog :band:

4313B
07-16-2003, 06:59 AM
I've been waiting for these kits since December.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=481

The LE14A kits were just run off and you should be getting them soon. :)

*****

I'd like to add that we are all living in the past and apparently Harman really couldn't care. Their response would be "buy a K2-S9800" :D

I talk to Parts people who have been with JBL for 15 years and they've never seen, heard, nor care about a Lancer 77.

*****

D8RLE25 kits are on BO
D8RLE252 kits are in stock
D8RLE254 kits are on BO

boputnam
07-16-2003, 07:55 AM
I talk to Parts people who have been with JBL for 15 years and they've never seen, heard, nor care about a Lancer 77.
:idea:

I've got a pair of refurbished L77's that turned-out wonderful, and need only some help finding original grill cloth - the bane of my refurbish! Maybe instead of the eBay route, I should donate them to the JBL Pro shop for their daily listening enjoyment... ;)

GordonW
07-16-2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by Giskard
I've been waiting for these kits since December.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=481

I'd like to add that we are all living in the past and apparently Harman really couldn't care. Their response would be "buy a K2-S9800" :D



See, that's the point tho- to a HUGE number of people in their "install base", ie, the part of the public actually WILLING to pony up to the cost of JBL products- the HISTORY IS the reason for the precieved increase in value. It's precisely BECAUSE of their support for products like this, that studios, musicians and the like, tend to gravitate toward JBL products.

Otherwise, hell, I might as well just buy an Eminence product... IME, I can make most of the modern Eminence stuff SOUND pretty much just as good as the modern JBL stuff (at least in the budget price realm, excluding monsters like the 2242 and such... and even there, others are rapidly catching up), for far less money. If I can't bank on replacement parts being there, why pony up for the good stuff???

Regards,
Gordon.

GordonW
07-16-2003, 09:23 AM
BTW, Giskard... is it possible, and how much damage/change to the sound will I do, if I reconed a LE25 with an LE25-2 kit? And didn't JBL themselves, use the LE25-2 in some later model L100s anyway?

Regards,
Gordon.

GordonW
07-16-2003, 09:31 AM
I think I answered my own question...

Looking at the PDF files, the 4311B used the LE25-2, with basically the same other driver complement as the L100, with the EXACT SAME crossover as the L100A (which is what I have here).

I see no reason why the LE25-2 kit shouldn't work? Anyone wanna stop me from making a titanic mistake here? :D

Regards,
Gordon.

4313B
07-16-2003, 09:50 AM
I don't know if you can put an LE25-2 kit into an LE25. All the LE25 gaps are the same. The LE25-2 had a DCR of 3.6 to 4.4 ohms whereas the LE25/LE25-1/LE25-3/LE25-4/LE25-5 had a DCR of 3.7 to 4.2 ohms.

The LE25-2 was used in:
L16
L26 - supplanted by the LE25-4 in the L26A
L36 - supplanted by the LE25-4 in the L36A
R82
R103
R123
R133
4301 - supplanted by the LE26 in the 4301B
The LE25-2 supplanted the LE25 (4311/4311A) in the 4311B
4312

The LE25/LE25-1 use the 50402 foam ring
The LE25-2/LE25-3 use the 53363 foam ring
The LE25-4/LE25-5 use the 54279 foam ring

4313B
07-16-2003, 09:50 AM
Ok, my reply timed out as usual and I see your new post.

***

The L100 used the LE20-1 and the L100A used the LE25-2.
Regardless, all those systems had minimal, nearly identical filters. In fact, I don't think the HF filter ever changed, I think it was just the MF filter that changed from 8 to 13 uF or vise versa or whatever. If you need me to nail down the different schematics I will but otherwise I'll just leave it at that :)

Robh3606
07-16-2003, 10:28 AM
Hello Gordon

"a LOT of the value seen in buying JBL, has been their SERVICABILITY"

I couldn't agree more. If you look at almost any other manufacturer of say 60's to 80's speakers I think they are it as far as recone kits are concerned. You could always just pay the money to get the stuff fixed in the rare instance you would damage a driver. With that gone the only option is the off shore recone kits, if available, or Ebay a new driver. I think it could temporarilly make the ebay prices go up as the diehards battle over recone kits or original drivers. Then the bottom will fall out and it will all be worthless. Imagine those heavy frames and monster motors reduced to paper weights and door stops for lack of cone kits!!:banghead:

Rob:smthsail:

scott fitlin
07-16-2003, 12:42 PM
Harmans way of doing buisiness is getting you to buy the new stuff. They really arent interested in servicing what they consider to be obsolete products they no longer manufacture.

Harman bought Crown, and Crown no longer has parts for their vintage amps. And BEFORE Harman took over Crown, Crown ALWAYS would service their legacy products!

C-Audio. Harman purchased this English amplifier company. Prior to the harman purchase people were saying C-Audio sounded better then Crown. Harman buys C-Audio and now C-Audio no longer manufactures amps. When you go to C-Audios website it tells you that IF you are interested in purchasing amps to visit their SISTER companys website, Crown Audio!!!!!!

Draw your own conclusions. :readme:

Oldmics
07-16-2003, 01:52 PM
Time to throw my hat into the ring.I think unfortunatly we have to expand our outlook larger than the Harman group killing off the service aspect to manufactors that is owned by Harman.Lets view the bigger picture of the economy and how electronics have changed throughout the years.Heres a question-When is the last time you had a television set repaired?In my experience its cheaper and faster to purchase a new unit and throw the old one out.I think that this type of mentality has overtaken the world of which we live in.Its faster and cheaper for an electronics manufacturor to produce and sell a unit as opposed to maintaining a network of service personal,parts,warranty administrators and everything required for a LONG term lifespan of the item.Long term products that last are not good for sales.Service makes little money in comparision to sales.All of the greedy manufactors want a fatter bottom line.This is driven by the companys who are public holdings.The CEOs of these publicly held companys have to answer to the stockholders(us).And when the stockholders are loosing there investment moneys,they move there investments to yet another stock.The world in which the demographics of the contributors of this site grew up in has changed.When we grew up a product was built to last with pride in the realm of manufactoring.This quality also included service for the public.Now a days its build it cheap and support it until the next version comes out then sell em a new one.Why sell them (the public) a new one?Because its a fatter bottom line and makes it look more enticing to investors.Make NO bones about it the handfull of people who manipulate this are going from company to company and taking NO prisoners and we the public are left to suffer.When the company goes belly up,then sell the name and start over again.Its a racket!I would say lets look towards the people in charge for some help and guidance,but now we are talking about the goverment so don"t get me started on that.I know that this thread is going to go way off topic.But as I see it there soon will be NO brand loyality because nobody will be here tomorrow to give a damn.Just like this post-another lost voice in the wind.Hey,lets talk about something more cheerful.Best regards,Oldmics (Who lives in the past)

Dave G
07-16-2003, 02:55 PM
All this complaining. You should try going to order parts in UK.

You order the part......

thats it.:banghead:

I'm doing my best to stockpile tasty items!

C audio,not sure what happened there.

A & H bought themselves out of harman conections if my info is correct. Perhaps to stop getting swallowed up in the mixer market.

scott fitlin
07-16-2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Dave G
All this complaining. You should try going to order parts in UK.

You order the part......

thats it.:banghead:

I'm doing my best to stockpile tasty items!

C audio,not sure what happened there.

A & H bought themselves out of harman conections if my info is correct. Perhaps to stop getting swallowed up in the mixer market. A & H bought themselves out of Harman because they didnt like where they ( as a brand ) were going with Harman. Harman has bought up many once famous brands and did away with all the once famous components. Harman owns so many brands and every brand they own has changed dramatically. Some have even dissapeared, like Urei!

Sometimes it seems like Harman is trying to do away with traditional audio, and force the marketplace to buy what they say audio is! I cant say I always agree with what the Harman group is promoting.

JBL. JBL has almost no products left from what made them so famous! 2405 and 2402 tweeters are about it, and JBL claims these are obsolete as well! I like my audio, and I like the ability to choose what I like. I dont want to be told YOU MUST use this or that.

I have listened to so many new technology components and speakers, and somehow my ears seem to prefer traditional sounding, well made components!

Every once famous brand Harman bought up, no longer is anything like the brands they originally were, except for the logos!

Tom Loizeaux
07-16-2003, 08:14 PM
I don't plan to change the world, I just make it my job to support what I believe, understand and like. That means that I lavish my attention, time and money on things that I think deserve my approval. Vintage JBL happens to be one of those things. Sure, there is a certain amount of nostalgia and a cetain amount of phychological appeal in these classic units, but I also believe that JBL engineers put an amazing amount of work, care and materials in these vintage units - and the results were nothing short of amazing! Because of the quality of these units, most of them are still performing well today and surpass most of the new, modern stuff that's out there. I walk right past the isles of all this new stuff and spend my energies on tweaking and enjoying these vintage masterpieces!

As I've said before, I think JBL would be wise to recognize and support the efforts to keep these vintage products in top shape. JBL's reputation comes not from their current home speakers or car audio products, but from decades of top quality professional speaker products that set new standards in the audio industry.

Tom

boputnam
07-16-2003, 08:43 PM
from Scott Fitlin:


my ears seem to prefer traditional sounding, well made components!

"Bingo"!!, my friend. And that is why we are all here, me thinks.

My otherwise-engaged friends cannot grasp my affliction, until they come over and visit. And then...

First, was the near wretched Altec Corona's, then refitted with the LE8T's and LE20's which brought a humble "oh my god" from the wifey who hadn't lived with them since 1974 and didn't share my cabinet loyalty...

Then were the completely refurbished Lancer 44's and Lancer 77's that simply "wow"d any who stopped by the shop and saw their father's speakers rockin...

Second, the L26's refitted with the LE10A's featured. "Oh my god" was the response of the poor soul who gave me the cabinets (sans the blown LF's) otherwise headed for the rubbish tip.

Third, were the veritable 4312 L/R refitted with the 128H's - thanks to Giskard - which won a "oh my god" from mixed couples...

Fourth, were the 4313B's with the resurround LE10H's (and with cabinet polarity reversed and duly noted on the rear, per martinleewin's rant...), and paired with the 4312 L/R's wrought an "oh my god" from even me...

Fifth, are the "oh my god" cabinets, the 4345's, which I will re-spec to factory, and then can only hope to look after for so long as I can hear.

... they completely get it, but have no basis to start from.

This appreciation has to be rooted in a willingness to just listen to music, without visual stimulation. A willingness that most seem to have lost along the way.

The incorporation of visual inputs masks, to a degree, the need for the definition and imaging we here seek. Processors make-up for the need for true, highest quality in audio gear. IMO, ironically, surround-sound systems benefit mediocre quality audio gear more than highest quality audio gear benefits surround-sound systems to the "average" user. I visit many homes where some lastest tech processor is wanking the sound of an otherwise unworthy audio system into something where I really cannot hear what is going on, and over-amped subwoofers (hopelessly attempting to obviate the need for real speaker cabinets...) are muddier than the mighty Mississippi. I (not so subtly...) switch the processor off, to "stereo", and "poof", man, the mystique vaporizes - "there is nothing behind the curtain, Dorothy". But, it is working.

Regretably, for us who hope to sustain the quality scott fitlin refers to, you simply can get to an acceptible audio-visual result with so much less effort than we go through. Not being a martyr, but few appreciate the need to start with audio, perfect it, and then work to incorporate it into the audio-visual experience. That is hard.

OK, soap box is now being relinquished to the next sordid soul. As Reginald Gardiner would say: "Nurse, I'm ready... :screwy:

DavidF
07-16-2003, 09:35 PM
JBL does cater to a select, brand and quality conscious following in Asia where the designs of the recent-past are the preferred instruments. Seems that the price to support this activity is quite high and no doubt the margins are higher than market should bear, but it indicates to me the cost of catering to a small niche of buyers. Could it also be possible that as we move further away from the '60s and '70s, the number of "survivors" still singing away is simply diminshing to the point that it does not make sense to preserve and maintain the tooling necessary for a huge catalog of replacement parts.

Davidf

GordonW
07-17-2003, 12:08 AM
To expand on Bo's last post above...

... yeah, video DOES do a lot to temporarily (IMHO and IME) mask sonic errors.

That said... HOWEVER... Ive noticed a real phenomenon, that happens when you show someone a home theater system, made up of REAL speakers, configured for REAL sound. It's the "oh my god" thing, there as well.

I work at a Tannoy dealer, and believe it or not, one of our BIGGEST sellers in the last 3 years, is one of the possibly most politically incorrect speakers imaginable... the Saturn 10. DUAL 10" DRIVERS... one a dual concentric, the other a dedicated woofer, in a cabinet that stands just nigh of 4 FEET TALL. And we sold them in SPADES!

The really interesting cases, were like the one where a family came in, looking to outfit their new downstairs "media room" with speakers. The way the room was designed, there was absolutely NO problem fitting any speaker of ANY size... but when we started the demo, you could tell... the "brainwashing" was there... the wife had this distressed look, as the husband started looking at large floorstanders. "Why not the cubes"? was the inherent unspoken question, I'm sure. HOWEVER... at one point in the demo, Pete, the store owner, put on the Saturn 10s, playing a track by Ronnie Earl and the Broadcasters (kick-butt blues band from Boston... the track used was "Rego Park Blues" for those who've heard him), which featured a very quiet guitar intro, followed by a WICKED snare roll, which just sort of BAM, there it is. When the snare kicked in, the wife and son both JUMPED in thier seats... and the wife got this huge grin on her face, and said, "THAT'S the speaker I want. That sounded REAL!!".

Another poor soul saved from the curse of mediocre audio... :cheers: :rockon2:

In short, I don't think the real music-enthusiast-audio-lovers are dying off, never to be replaced... there's just HUGE numbers of them out there, that just don't KNOW they're them, yet! It's amazing to see, when it happens... the sight of a 18 year old going nuts for a big 4-way Marantz speaker from the 1970s, because it just rocked his world, for one example I've seen personally. It's like that GMC Truck commercial: "it's not more than you NEED... just more than you EXPECTED..."

Regards,
Gordon.

scott fitlin
07-17-2003, 03:55 AM
Quality goods built for long term reliability and use still do exist. Harman hasnt bought up everybody. Companys like Bryston and TAD, A & H still manufacture audio gear that holds up, sounds great and is serviceable long after the purchase date.

Good stuff costs big money, and is worth it if you can afford.

My problem with todays principles in audio are when a company stops making a favorite product and they recommend their latest gear, you go out and buy, install, and get angry when not only does your new purchase not sound at least as good as your old stuff, it sounds worse.

It amazes me that Vintage JBL sounds so good and so many seek out vintage JBL, and current JBL doesnt live up to its namesake!

Maybe I do live in the past, but the past sounds really good, sonically! When the future sounds as good to me I will jump into it!

I may get castrated for saying this, but JBL today doesnt sound like JBL yesterday! Matter of fact, there are NEW JBL products that I distinctly DO NOT like the sound of!

So Harman has it corporate ways and mentality! And I have freedom of choice. And I just used this freedom of choice by purchasing 6 new TAD 4002 compression drivers INSTEAD of 6 JBL 2450 compression drivers! Hello Harman :wave:.

Mr. Widget
07-17-2003, 10:19 AM
Come on guys, I am bummed that JBL isn't an altruistic mom and pop business too, but heck, they still support many more of their products than anyone I can think of in any industry.

You can still get repair parts for many of JBL's most popular speakers from the early 60's. LE15As, D130s, 075s... they are all still supported. I would say that being able to get factory replacement parts for a 40 year old product is pretty damn cool!

Try calling GM or Ford and ordering a factory made seat for a 10 year old car!

scott fitlin
07-17-2003, 03:44 PM
You do make a good point, Mr. Widget! :D

GordonW
07-17-2003, 11:18 PM
Well, to put my point in a nutshell:

The primary REASON JBL has historically been SO interesting for many people, has been their willingness to support even 40 year old speakers. THIS was a REAL market differentiation- that made JBL products worth more, to many people, than other brands that might have been otherwise engineered and built as well.

Take that support away, and to most people, JBL will be "just another speaker brand"... and as I said before, given the advances in technology in MANY speaker companies these days, I might as well build around Eminince or other "generic" stuff, rather than pay the premium for JBL, knowing that they may be just as hard to repair as anyone else's speaker...

It's all about value...

Regards,
Gordon.

PSS AUDIO
07-18-2003, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by scott fitlin
Every once famous brand Harman bought up, no longer is anything like the brands they originally were, except for the logos!

I do agree with you and once again I will speak about CROWN, also known in Europe and Asia as AMCRON.

Since CROWN was bought by Harman, they launch each year a new amplifier, always better that the previous one.

Was the previous one that bad that they had to correct the product with a new one and same each year?

They are just doing some money with the name nothing more!

Just test the following: buy one of those (same for a lot of others co called big brands), remove the logo, place an unknown name on it and never or very hardly will you sell it with the same arguments printed with the original brand, as one will reply you this is jus advertising numbers and speech.

Products are sold on the name, not for the product.

Just a pity.

But what gives me hope is that dinosaurs already disappeared once from earth!

scott fitlin
07-18-2003, 12:55 AM
Yuri, that is something that started in the 90,s! I know an engineer who uses Harman exclusively for the systems he designs. And every year whatever new products Harman has out he will tell you is THE only thing to use now! And then you get the lecture about how what your using is now OBSOLETE! Then you say, But I just got it LAST year!

As I have said before, I dont always agree with Harman. And this is a major point with me! Im sorry but buying JBL USED to mean you were buying the best and you only had to buy it ONCE! I dont want to hear this crap about buying new stuff every two years because the stuff from 2 years ago is obsolete!

Im not exactly sure this way of doing buisiness is actually working for JBL, either. In the Nightclub world, EAW is outselling JBL by plenty. Where you once saw ONLY JBL you are now seeing EAW,s Avalon series!

Mobile DJ,s are buying Mackie or Yorkville self powered speakers. Not JBL Eons! If you ask someone why they bought Mackie over JBL they will tell you they like this better! Home Hi-Fi consumers that used to buy big JBL speakers, now buy big B & W speakers!

CROWN! You know, Crown used to be a good investment. Great reliability and great sound! And Crown from way back when are still around and operating and sounding good! Now it seems like they make amps for about 3 years of use and then throw em away! Everyone I know who bought the CE series has had problems with them! How do you take a legendary company like crown and use them to make disposable gear? It aint right!

I know companies are in buisiness to sell product and earn profit, but the Audio industry could learn a lesson from the Auto industry! remember when Detroit RULED? remeber when a Cadillac was THEE car? Remeber when American cars were the best? Remeber how ALL the Famous brands like Chevy and Cadillac got swallowed up by GM? Remember when these brands did what the audio companies are doing now? Remember how Detroit Auto makers thought they were invincible and could pass off whatever they wanted to on the American Public? Remember the 80,s when Import cars really started OUTSELLING American cars? Remember how Detroit almost went out of buisiness?

And today you see far more BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Infiniti, Toyota, Honda, etc, then you do American cars! When I was a kid, the Caddy was the Premium automobile. Mercedes holds the title to Cadillacs former position!

People got tired of low quality build and inferior products and started spending their money elswhere. I know many audio professionals, end users and hobbyists who say the same things I do, and after having been burned with NEW but INFERIOR products, have subsequently switched brand loyalty!

:beamup:

PSS AUDIO
07-18-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by scott fitlin


I know companies are in buisiness to sell product and earn profit, but the Audio industry could learn a lesson from the Auto industry! remember when Detroit RULED? remeber when a Cadillac was THEE car? Remeber when American cars were the best? Remeber how ALL the Famous brands like Chevy and Cadillac got swallowed up by GM? Remember when these brands did what the audio companies are doing now? Remember how Detroit Auto makers thought they were invincible and could pass off whatever they wanted to on the American Public? Remember the 80,s when Import cars really started OUTSELLING American cars? Remember how Detroit almost went out of buisiness?
:beamup:

Scott,

Remember when ... the Platters!

I 1000% agree with you, even if I am not native from the states …

Some audio companies, aware of such a come back, even copies the look and feel. I don’t think people are looking for such a look, as they want a real audio quality and reliability.

I am very pleased reading that CE amplifiers are not rock solid as customers are looking for such amplifier with a real sound quality, not a boum boom fizz sound!

In the next decade will survive:

Monsters as HARMAN and out of their catalogue will disappear several brands; only very well known and well-marketed brands will exist for mass market only,

And medium companies, as mine (I hope so - no I do not hope as I am 1000% confident), offering REAL quality, and quite luxurious but with no bla bla bla.

Lets speak about it in 2013!

scott fitlin
07-18-2003, 01:49 AM
I am one of those unfortunate, misled souls who still uses my EARS as the final, and most influential way of making my decisions!

I have been told by some to stop using my ears and start reading the specs!

I did that ONCE!

I wont ever do it again!

Music and Audio are part of my buisiness and I like my music and audio to be spectacular!

But I also LISTEN to what I play and listen to my system, too!

Hi, Im Sy Sperling! Im not only the president of the Hair Club for Men, Im also a Member!

:rotfl:

GordonW
07-18-2003, 10:42 AM
The thing is, a company like Harman, especially with Sidney Harman at the helm, should KNOW better than to play the "name game"... this thing has happened BEFORE!

History is indeed repeating itself... it's like the mass buyout/whoreout of the 1970s all over again. Look at Advent! Look at Acoustic Research, look at Fisher, Jensen and KLH! What all of these companies have in common, was that they ONCE were GREAT names in the industry, but were bought out by (or themselves became) mass-market "box-mover" commodity companies, which THOUGHT that people would buy cheap, uninspiringly built, otherwise generic products, indefinitely, just for the name. And BOY did many of them LOSE THEiR BUTTS. AR has been through 2-3 different buyout/restructurings since 1980, probably the same for Advent and KLH... and with the bankruptcy of Recoton Corp., Advent, Jensen and AR are BACK in receivership, in all practical senses, RIGHT NOW!

I wonder just exactly how Harman thinks they're gonna be immune from the laws of nature in the market, as has been demonstrated by the above companies??

Regards,
Gordon.

4313B
07-18-2003, 10:58 AM
Here are some pages that might be interesting:

http://www.harman.com/profiles/index.jsp?articleId=30

http://www.harman.com/profiles/index.jsp?articleId=52

http://www.harman.com/profiles/index.jsp?articleId=67

PSS AUDIO
07-18-2003, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by GordonW
The thing is, a company like Harman, especially with Sidney Harman at the helm, should KNOW better than to play the "name game"... this thing has happened BEFORE!

......

I wonder just exactly how Harman thinks they're gonna be immune from the laws of nature in the market, as has been demonstrated by the above companies?

Human being is very short minded and never remembers lessons from the past!

He always thinks he is more intelligent than his neighbour, and what happened never will occur in his situation.

History always repeats itself…

A company must grow, but as we are in quite a small market (audio pro) never can you make volume.

I do prefer eat a good steak the 5 hamburgers.

It is better to be the number one in the studio market with a reasonable benefit than selling paper boxes with some speakers making some noise in it with such a little margin that they must be put together (not built as it is to complicate to have something well built) in the far east at millions of persons.

As I always said, it is not because hamburgers are eaten by million that it is good to eat!

scott fitlin
07-18-2003, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by GordonW
The thing is, a company like Harman, especially with Sidney Harman at the helm, should KNOW better than to play the "name game"... this thing has happened BEFORE!

History is indeed repeating itself... it's like the mass buyout/whoreout of the 1970s all over again. Look at Advent! Look at Acoustic Research, look at Fisher, Jensen and KLH! What all of these companies have in common, was that they ONCE were GREAT names in the industry, but were bought out by (or themselves became) mass-market "box-mover" commodity companies, which THOUGHT that people would buy cheap, uninspiringly built, otherwise generic products, indefinitely, just for the name. And BOY did many of them LOSE THEiR BUTTS. AR has been through 2-3 different buyout/restructurings since 1980, probably the same for Advent and KLH... and with the bankruptcy of Recoton Corp., Advent, Jensen and AR are BACK in receivership, in all practical senses, RIGHT NOW!

I wonder just exactly how Harman thinks they're gonna be immune from the laws of nature in the market, as has been demonstrated by the above companies??

Regards,
Gordon. They arent immune! But, as always, they will have to learn the HARD WAY! Years ago, almost every studio had Urei time align monitors or JBL monitors, or Altec 604,s. and JBL or Urei power amps! Crowns were also used. These days studios use alot of Genelec and Dynaudio, as well as other brands, but not so much JBL. And where power is concerned, Bryston has made its way into SO many studios!

As I said earlier in this thread, EAW is selling MUCH product when it comes to Dance Clubs!

Mackie, Peavey, and Yorkville are dominating the mobile scene with portable products that this market wants.

Some of the BIG tour and rental companies arent 100% satisfied with JBL, these days!

I dont think JBL will ( Harman ) will go out of buisiness, but I do think they need to start taking a harder look at things, and change accordingly. I suspect this may happen, as they are, indeed, very aware of other brands that have taken over sales of products that formerly was the territory of JBL exclusively!

Of course, on the other hand, IF they WONT wake up, they will lose! People are tired of low build quality, and products that dont live up to their claims and expectations!

:shock:

Charley Rummel
07-20-2003, 02:19 AM
Hi, Everyone:

I have so many thoughts righ now about the demand for classic JBL product support VS the infrastructre of availability from the current manifestation:

Like it or not, JBL Professional, currently, is an extension of the Harman organization. We can sit here and be aw-stricken about what ever is available from the modern-day manifestation of our beloved JBL from the glory days, but the FACT is JBL Professional TODAY is merily a part of a brand management scheme managed by whatever Harman marketing thinks will compliment the collective effort of all their product, or brand mix. You want a mixer? Harman offers Allen and Heath; You want a power amp? Harman offers a line of Crown amps. You want some speakers? Harman offers JBL. And so forth.

Personally, I am in love with my classic JBL speakers, of which I have several. I think we are fortunate to have the good graces of today's JBL organization which will provide us with services to maintain our 40+ year old D130, 077 etc., especially after surviving Beatrice (look at what Emerson Electric did to Fisher); at least Harman is gracious enough to have offered support as far as they have.

Regards,
Charley

scott fitlin
07-20-2003, 02:58 PM
And so was Mr. Widget when he basically said the same thing! Vintage JBL was PHENOMENAL! But the stuff they make now?

A local bar owner in my area just bought Mackie speakers. He told me he listened to everything! He DID NOT care for the JBL product. He liked the Mackie speakers sound. The only other speaker he liked better was the EAW,s which were too expensive for him!

My point isnt that JBL is great for having parts for ALL our old stuff, but that they are losing sales to other brands by NOT making what the users want!

And yes, Charley, Harman runs JBL with a corporate mentality. But I think the corporation has lost touch with the marketplace! But JBL has been Harman for a long time, and when they arent doing the sales they want, they will get it together! Just my opinion.

littlemike
12-26-2006, 01:54 AM
....Heres a question-When is the last time you had a television set repaired?In my experience its cheaper and faster to purchase a new unit and throw the old one out....
Actually, just two weeks ago. I tried but couldn't find something that would fit in the space, and all these damn HD-widescreen LCD sets that are flooding the market won't go in my nice oak cabinet. Turns out, the only way to fly with new gear was to buy a commercial-grade CRT set made for hotels, but for over $500, I decided it was easier to get the 7-y.o. Samsung CRT fixed for $100, and it works beautifully now. But I do get your point, most of this stuff is throwaway trash.

BTW, Mackie and EAW may have stolen JBL's market share, but let's see how long that lasts now that both sisters are now building their product in China.

Thom
12-26-2006, 02:51 AM
I agree with all of that but I'm glad I didn't say it. Left to it's own natural end this is capitalism.

Steve Schell
12-26-2006, 04:26 AM
It is a funny situation with TV sets. I remember shopping for my first new 19" color TV back in 1977. Back then anything decent in that size cost $300 or more. The best available, a Sony Trinitron, cost about double that. I bought a Sharp and had good service from it for at least ten years. By the time it gave out good 19" or 20" sets had dropped to about $200 and had more reliable electronic tuners, picture in picture and other goodies. Nowadays a nice new 20" set can probably be had for $120 or less, a small fraction of what my 1977 set cost when allowing for inflation. Even the cheapies these days probably perform as well as the Trinitrons did years ago. Although I'm not happy about our disposable consumer culture, I'd say that the overall cost-per-year for a good TV in a given size has dropped dramatically over my adult lifetime.

Thom
12-26-2006, 02:58 PM
I guess when Chinese (or who ever is the cheap labor of the day) labor is as high as ours this will change in some way, but probably still not to our benefit.
Don't stone me for this as it's only an idea, but it might make sense to figure out who in the aftermarket business makes a quality product, if someone does, and encourage them through patronage. I sincerely doubt that the profit made from repairing their installed base is the reason that JBL has kept service up. It's tricky when your old product is what is keeping people from buying your new product If all of a sudden people need new product because there old product ,made by you, can't be fixed, you're not the natural for them to look to for new product. Unless you can work out some neat trad-in practice. Or the like. Does anybody know, Is there a competing pro line owned by Harmon? If JBL gets all the way out of the parts business, that will make enough of a business for someone to do it really right. Till now all the aftermarket had for customers was people who wouldn't pay JBL prices. I'm not advocating anything. Just in this case JBL could be biting and the market, surely not the hobbyist, could be the hand that feeds.

johnaec
12-26-2006, 04:15 PM
If all of a sudden people need new product because there old product ,made by you, can't be fixed, you're not the natural for them to look to for new product.I think you'll find JBL probably makes more replacement parts for older models than just about anyone you can think of in this business. If someone buys a more current model, I still believe it will be far better supported in the future than most other manufacturers. Personally, I'd much rather buy new product from a company with a history of comprehensive, if not total, support of older models.

I don't have any specific facts to back that particular perception up, but do know that JBL still provides recone kits, etc., for models made close to 40 years ago! Most current speaker manufacturers haven't even been in business that long!

John

Tom Loizeaux
12-26-2006, 04:43 PM
...Products are sold on the name, not for the product...


We can't audition, test, analyze and thoroughly evaluate every product we purchase, we have to trust the manufacturer. That's why the name is so important! We need product confidence. That's why companies need to protect their names. When they don't they may make some undeserved money on imitations, but will slowly fall from grace. The companies that DO uphold their quality will not sweep up the market, but will continue to be looked up to as a premium manufacturer and maintain the loyality of those customers who care about quality.
In the final analyisis, I think there are more who appreciate quality then one might think.

Tom

Thom
12-26-2006, 04:55 PM
Agreed, but the trend is in the wrong direction. I know AB was going to discontinue the PLC5 line of plc's and the industry basically revolted because if AB had given the new hardware away for free the labor for switchover might have cost industry in the billions. I'm really not familiar with numbers that large so I can't swear I have the decimal point in the right place but basically it's what have you done for me lately and they would have lost a fortune to companies who might not have stood behind their stuff as well but if the current impression is you f-- me you don't get my business. It's probably worse the better you used to be because the contrast is greater. Also if one of your main features was that you weren't like that you start out behind. Anyway AB still services PLC5 and a couple of other legacy lines and there official line is that they never planned to discontinue it, they have no idea where these rumors started. But service parts keep getting higher and they offer some pretty good change over programs and this keeps their customers their customers. There are major differences in the industries but there are similarities as well. I would think JBL would want to try harder now then 40 years ago. The differences between their drivers now and 40 years ago seem to have changed. If you wanted a 4 inch voice coil where could you go. JBL, Gauss, I think Altec had one model with a 4 inch otherwise it was 3 and EV was 2.5. Of course EV said it was because they had superior machine tools and JBL couldn't make the precision adaptors to use 4 inch magnets, which was a standard size, with a smaller VC so they had to use a 4in but I see EV has 4 in now so who knows. Anyway there are lots of high quality drivers now. I'm not saying they are or aren't as good. This is something I don't know, but speaker companies come and go. I believe (I have read it) that Jensen was once the worlds largest speaker mfg. JBL is or has been the worlds largest speaker mfg. Maybe it's not possible to be the largest and best or maybe they have little to do with each other. As I recall the history they started out making superb product and going broke and with a capitalist economy this often the case. Tesla built the 20th century. Edison became wealthy.

I think today companies see one way of harvesting their name, so to speak, is to use it to sell a lot of product for prices that it wouldn't bring without the name. But you can only harvest just so much without planting and the rest of it before the crop is gone.

CONVERGENCE
12-26-2006, 05:16 PM
The product line has diversified to the extent that to what purpose one model is to one manufacturer is different to another.

Comparing Eon to another brand is not the right approach. One should look for a model that fits his needs.

The engineer who designed the Eon was probably thinking PA. The Mackie engineer DJ.

All I Know is that JBL has it's flag ships products : Touring and in Cinema.

As for Studio Monitors the big ones . The components are still manufactured. Who and why they were replaced by Tad is for studio owners to reply.

.................................................. .................................

Mr. Widget
12-26-2006, 05:37 PM
As for Studio Monitors the big ones . The components are still manufactured. Who and why they were replaced by Tad is for studio owners to reply.
The custom monitor designers may be using TAD components, but as of last year, TAD also got out of the large monitor business... they also stopped producing their mid sized and smaller monitors too.

It would seem the monitor business has changed due to the advent of surround sound and more project studios.

As for selling raw drivers... JBL still offers some product though it is less and less each year. TAD offers a very small line up and their production numbers are really small. On almost every order I have placed it has taken months for the drivers to arrive. A fellow TAD user told me that when he specified a particular TAD driver for a large install and ordered 100 of their HF drivers, they refused to fulfill the order. It was too large.

Widget

Benkev
12-27-2006, 06:09 AM
Hi everyone.

This is a very interesting thread. We can talk about the pros and cons of quality until we're blue in the face, but the sad truth is that more and more people do not recognize good sound, nor the quality components that produce it. I cannot begin to tell you how sad it makes me to hear people praise the "wonderful sound" that they get from their (fill in the blank) MP3-player... played through their throw-away-plastic-case computer speakers. People today are continuously exposed to elevator-music, shopping-mall music, crappy-tv-speaker sound, etc. I believe it is imprinting the masses to acceot, nay expect that sound. Some of these people even prefer crappy sound to live sound. I assume because they so rarely have a chance to hear live sound.

Where does that leave a manufacturer? Are there enough "other" people left to justify the expense of quality? Probably not. Now, add the declining quality of the source material into the equation.

The future for quality looks ever more bleak to me.

Just my two cents.

Cheers.

spwal
12-27-2006, 07:13 AM
Thats alot more than 2 cents.. thats every last dollar in the music business. Of the 100s of cds i have in lossless format, i would say only a fat handful are truly enjoyable from an engineering standpoint-- the get-out-of-your-seat and exclaim "damn, thats a great recording!". Things are made to sound good out of ipods. From a financial standpoint, you would be stupid to do it any other way...

Acoustic Sounds keeps high quality vinyl and some boutique CD recordings alive, sadly it will kill your wallet in the process.

Solution : dont sell out, buy in! I have a melos Sha-1 studio headphone amp and a pair of Grado HP-2 (yes im a lucky boy- my third pair of HP-1000). If you dont know about that combo (this is a vintage website and i would say that you should), you should. Sadly, its sometimes mo' bettah to listen to new albums this way. The tubes and grados manage to tame most commercially viable recordings.

Just my $.02, having been a headphone-phile first

Sean

Titanium Dome
12-27-2006, 08:44 AM
blah, blah, blah, the past

boo hoo hoo quality

grr grr grr iPod

wail wail wail music

pine pine pine the old ways

darn darn darn new-fangled technology

:rotfl:

Sorry, it just sounded like my grandfather when I got my first transistor radio.

Titanium Dome
12-27-2006, 09:05 AM
(snip)
In the final analyisis, I think there are more who appreciate quality then one might think.

Tom

Tom, I think you're right, that the appreciation for quality is growing, but at the same time so is the proliferation of consumer grade, mediocre products. The fact is that the size of the market today dwarfs the marketplace of the past, and there's more room for everything.

--------------------

On sum, JBL has a greater line of speakers today than it's ever had before. It also has the most lo-fi and mid-fi offerings ever. What we have is a phenomenon where it's addressing the entire market.

Many who dwell in the past are spoiled by the great value in getting old equipment for bargain prices, then griping that equivalent good deals aren't available on brand new product. Many of us also fail to realize that there's a tendency to compare 50 years worth of product releases against five or ten years of current product. Fifty years is a lot of cumulative product. It wasn't all produced at the same time.

Looking through the archives, there is no year in which JBL had a broader or a better line of loudspeakers available than 2006/2007. Those who've heard the new Everest say it's the best ever, and I trust the expert opinions of those folks. If that's not enough, then I have heard the K2s, the Project Arrays, the Performance Series, the HT Series and the Studio Ls, and they'll beat any line up from any other product cycle.

If you've heard the Vertecs in action like I have, you'd think so, too. But I'm talking consumer here, not Pro.

Ok, so you can't get boxy, wood-veneered cabinets anymore. I don't see much of a downside there. In any other aspect, comparable products now have better drivers, better networks, better materials, better empirical design, better technology, and better sound. Period. End of story. Good night. Bye bye. See ya later.

LowPhreak
12-27-2006, 09:50 AM
It seems to me the CEO's/management of Harmon et al don't want to take a lesser salary. In order to keep profits high, either make very good, higher-end products that are going to be stratospherically priced out of the reach of many, (look at the prices of the Project Array and Synthesis lines...ridiculous) or make a wide assortment of cheap junk with lower margins and sell trainloads of it.

There's not that much in the mid-priced range that's worth having anymore. Either you buy the crap stuff or be willing to take out a second mortgage, or be very well-off financially. Kind of reflects the way society in general has become: the rich are getting exponentially richer, while the 'middle class' is barely holding on. But there's plenty of room at the bottom.

With the throw away and "surround-sound-in-a-box" mentality of the average consumer today, the "wide assortment of cheap junk" option is going to work better. Very few are able to or want to take the effort, space requirements, and money it takes to achieve great sound.

BMWCCA
12-27-2006, 09:56 AM
On sum, JBL has a greater line of speakers today than it's ever had before. It also has the most lo-fi and mid-fi offerings ever. What we have is a phenomenon where it's addressing the entire market.I insist their problem is in marketing. Few people ever get to see, much less hear, any of the latest JBL offerings. I live two-hours outside Washington, DC, and there's no place to find even the crappy low-end stuff much less the high-end. There are more opportunities to bump into B&O and McIntosh than JBL. I haven't run into a dealer in years other than their cheap musical-instrument-store sound reinforcement products. It's far easier for me to live in the past buying what I know off Ebay and Craig's List than to find a dealer to ever discover what JBL is up to these days. I think lack of visibility takes them off the shopping list of most even in a high-demographic area like where I live. You can buy a BMW, Porsche, or M-B product within a 10-minute drive. You can't find a K2 in a seven-hour drive. That's a problem. Maybe I'm just spoiled, but even in the olden days when the product line was tiny, there were at least three JBL dealers in St. Louis where I grew-up. And I could walk in and be amazed. That helped the boomer generation aspire to own JBL. Of course now that means we're buying the stuff we couldn't afford back then, not the new stuff. But whose fault is that? Know any kids today in the U.S. who even have JBL on their "someday" list for home sound system, unless it's that donut-shaped iPod dock?

Robh3606
12-27-2006, 10:09 AM
JBL's have never been inexpensive. Try some of the original prices off the Consumer price list in one of the online calculators. They give adjusted dolars and work backwords as well.

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi


Thats for an XPL200

What cost $1699 in 1990 would cost $2526.99 in 2005.
Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2005 and 1990,
they would cost you $1699 and $1142.31 respectively.


http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/price-lists/1970-1999-prices.htm


Rob:)

LowPhreak
12-27-2006, 10:17 AM
...Know any kids today in the U.S. who even have JBL on their "someday" list for home sound system, unless it's that donut-shaped iPod dock?

Well, I know one who has a set of Creatures on his "want" list. :rolleyes:

http://www.harman-multimedia.com/images/pic_large/pic_creatureIIwht.jpg

But you have a good argument. If more of the higher-end stuff was in showrooms, it might even create a desire for them. If you can't see it, touch it, hear it...

Imagine THAT, JBL! :banghead:

Robh3606
12-27-2006, 10:25 AM
Know any kids today in the U.S. who even have JBL on their "someday" list for home sound system, unless it's that donut-shaped iPod dock?

Yes, any of my son's friends that have heard his L3's or any of my larger systems. They love the way they sound.

Rob:)

Titanium Dome
12-27-2006, 11:20 AM
Well, I know one who has a set of Creatures on his "want" list. :rolleyes:

http://www.harman-multimedia.com/images/pic_large/pic_creatureIIwht.jpg

But you have a good argument. If more of the higher-end stuff was in showrooms, it might even create a desire for them. If you can't see it, touch it, hear it...

Imagine THAT, JBL! :banghead:

I have some Creatures. Very nice for what they are.

LowPhreak
12-27-2006, 11:23 AM
I'm sure they are, but maybe you missed my point?

Mr. Widget
12-27-2006, 11:36 AM
There's not that much in the mid-priced range that's worth having anymore. Either you buy the crap stuff or be willing to take out a second mortgage, or be very well-off financially. Kind of reflects the way society in general has become: the rich are getting exponentially richer, while the 'middle class' is barely holding on. But there's plenty of room at the bottom.We have had several threads devolve into this conversation... I think it is a symptom of the frustration most of us are feeling as we watch the middle class disappear. Even some of the more astute at the top of the food chain are beginning to become concerned as they realize that it was our large middle class that elevated America to the financial pinnacle of the world... we need a large and healthy middle class to sustain our economy.... many short sighted executives who are exporting our middle class jobs for phenomenal near term profits either don't realize this or just don't care.


JBL's have never been inexpensive.Absolutely! One reason that so many JBLs survive is that they were a premium line... today the JBL line is following the trend in the US.... cheap junk for the Best Buy crowd and premium product for those who can afford it... there are almost no stores showcasing the high end, because the wealthy generally would prefer to simply have it installed and set up properly buying equipment that is recommended by the professionals that they hire. I does kind of limit our ability to kick tires... but that is today's marketplace.



There's not that much in the mid-priced range that's worth having anymore.I have no idea what JBL offers in he mid priced arena but the Revel "F" series is seriously worth a look.


As for he dumbing down of kids today? I have recently met several younger fellows who very very interested in getting better audio gear to keep up with their superior HD video gear... all is not lost.


Widget

Titanium Dome
12-27-2006, 11:53 AM
I'm sure they are, but maybe you missed my point?

Nope. Pretty sure I got it. ;)

Robh3606
12-27-2006, 11:54 AM
I'm sure they are, but maybe you missed my point?

I don't think so. Your point is well taken. Back in the 70's a kick ass stereo was what everyone wanted. Now it's computers and XBox's. Like Widget says all is not lost. Like anything else many of what becomes your favorite things in life you are introduced to by others. For me it was my Dad. I passed that on to my son. Yes most are happy with MP3 but many were happy with much less sophisticated stereo's as well. Doesn't mean they won't change.

Rob:)

LowPhreak
12-27-2006, 12:08 PM
I s'pose there are some decent "mid-range" speakers out there, like the Revel's you mentioned, or the Quad L-series for example. I meant in JBL's though.


As for he dumbing down of kids today? I have recently met several younger fellows who very very interested in getting better audio gear to keep up with their superior HD video gear... all is not lost.

I've been 'working' on my twin 26-year-old cousins for years, and of course they want good hi-fi but have trouble affording it. I might end up having to convince them to buy used 44xx models or such. ;) Then there is my 7 y.o....

LowPhreak
12-27-2006, 12:18 PM
Back in the 70's a kick ass stereo was what everyone wanted. Now it's computers and XBox's. Like Widget says all is not lost. Like anything else many of what becomes your favorite things in life you are introduced to by others. For me it was my Dad. I passed that on to my son. Yes most are happy with MP3 but many were happy with much less sophisticated stereo's as well. Doesn't mean they won't change.

Rob:)

Right, well then we didn't have much "video" of our fave bands to stare at, while the brain went on hiatus for the sound. You put on a record or tape, then tried to hear into (or fill in the blanks) of what was going on. I think this required a bit more processing and attention than simply cranking up a boomy sub and zoning out on an HT rig.

Probably a good thing anyway, since Keef & Mick were never that much to look at. :p

CONVERGENCE
12-27-2006, 01:08 PM
I live in a large city . They have Line array by JBL , VDOSC, MEYER.
Listening to one component or one box won't give you the true picture.

You need the whole thing 12 units flown .The reasons are evident that with 12 units of JBL vertec you have a more manageable bass response.

So what major wholesaler contractor can afford a 2000 seat theater to display this kind of equipment


.................................................. ................................................

LowPhreak
12-27-2006, 02:41 PM
Were we talking about demo'ing a Vertec system for a live venue, or something for residential or studio use like most of us here use?

Actually, for PA/pro use, there are plenty of places to demo JBL's products - Vertec notwithstanding. Much less so on the consumer electronics or audiophile side.

Thom
12-27-2006, 03:56 PM
We have had several threads devolve into this conversation... I think it is a symptom of the frustration most of us are feeling as we watch the middle class disappear. Even some of the more astute at the top of the food chain are beginning to become concerned as they realize that it was our large middle class that elevated America to the financial pinnacle of the world... we need a large and healthy middle class to sustain our economy.... many short sighted executives who are exporting our middle class jobs for phenomenal near term profits either don't realize this or just don't care.

Absolutely! One reason that so many JBLs survive is that they were a premium line... today the JBL line is following the trend in the US.... cheap junk for the Best Buy crowd and premium product for those who can afford it... there are almost no stores showcasing the high end, because the wealthy generally would prefer to simply have it installed and set up properly buying equipment that is recommended by the professionals that they hire. I does kind of limit our ability to kick tires... but that is today's marketplace.

I have no idea what JBL offers in he mid priced arena but the Revel "F" series is seriously worth a look.


As for he dumbing down of kids today? I have recently met several younger fellows who very very interested in getting better audio gear to keep up with their superior HD video gear... all is not lost.


Widget
Isn't Revel an example of Harman building a new quality name so that when thew have rung the JBL name for every last penny that the name itself will bring they have a new name to determine what to do with. Rather than an example of JBL still selling good speakers? Have more to post but have not recovered from the power going out just as I was going to hit the "submit reply" button. The world at large is not listening to more poorly reproduced music these days. Most MP3 players sound much better than vinyl did on a cheap BSR changer with a ceramic cartridge. Some may have to ask elders what I'm talking about. By for now.

CONVERGENCE
12-27-2006, 04:30 PM
Were we talking about demo'ing a Vertec system for a live venue, or something for residential or studio use like most of us here use?

Actually, for PA/pro use, there are plenty of places to demo JBL's products - Vertec notwithstanding. Much less so on the consumer electronics or audiophile side.

To Demo Line array properly one must go were a permanent installation
is. there are many places with these types of systems were I am. It's no problem.

.................................................. .........................................

LowPhreak
12-27-2006, 05:02 PM
I understand your point, but I think BMWCCA was referring to other than Vertec systems.

OTOH, if I were offered, I wouldn't turn down the chance to hear a Vertec array sans a screaming crowd! :bouncy:

Donald
12-27-2006, 05:03 PM
What is the price of the newly manufactured LE14 kits? If I recall they were over $400 each. I think that is about what I paid for my pair of Dorian S12 back in the day.

I have not been in the market for new speakers but what is the price range of current JBLs? All I see mentioned are 5 digit figures for a pair. I don't have that kind of money.

Is there a realistic consumer line these days?

johnaec
12-27-2006, 06:00 PM
Is there a realistic consumer line these days?Even though still listed on the JBL site, it appears the Performance series isn't actually available anywhere, (maybe some Synthesis dealers?), other than leftovers you might find... (I checked the links to their local "Synthesis" and HT dealers, and while listing other brands, they didn't list JBL...:( ), and I don't think the new Studio L series are quite up to that standard, though they may well outshine whatever else is available in that price range...

The unfortunate fact is that Bose now owns the "hi-end" market for consumer HT, (discount cheap Panasonic, etc.), and since DVD players also play CD's, they are starting to own the stereo market for these owners, simply by default. They run full-page newspaper ads all the time out here, and I swear - I saw at leat 6 instances of Bose ads on TV yesterday alone!! How can JBL compete with a 6.1 system for under $1300: http://www.bose.com/controller?event=VIEW_PRODUCT_PAGE_EVENT&product=am16_surround_inthebox#tabs

While personally I'll spend much more for the quality, I guarantee your average consumer is going to go for the Bose when they think of "high-end" - most of them have probaly only peripherally heard of JBL, while having Bose crammed into their head at every turn. And while you or I might (correctly) argue that even a bunch of JBL Control 1's and a JBL subwoofer would blow the Bose systems away, as far as I can tell, JBL has *zero* consumer marketing, so they're building no consumer awareness, and no base upon which to expand, ...

Face it - most of us here grew up with "audio" being the main thing - I myself still only have a 21" Sony CRT, but *thousands $$* tied up in basic stereo music reproduction, (I have to admit, though - I'm a musician). Most of the world probably considers us dinosaurs, but I prefer to think we're simply aware of what good sound reproduction sounds like, and what JBL's are capable of, and will continue to look for whatever we can to attain that goal, (someone please convince me to get rid of my extra inventory... :o: ).

John

Mr. Widget
12-27-2006, 06:02 PM
I have not been in the market for new speakers but what is the price range of current JBLs? All I see mentioned are 5 digit figures for a pair. I don't have that kind of money.

Is there a realistic consumer line these days?When the Paragon was introduced it cost more than a brand new Chevy... today the Everest DD66000 costs more than a Chevy... so what's the beef.

Here is the current US line up... they range from disposable to quite costly.

http://www.jbl.com/home/products/category.aspx?CatId=BFS&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA


Widget

Oldmics
12-27-2006, 06:36 PM
"OTOH, if I were offered, I wouldn't turn down the chance to hear a Vertec array sans a screaming crowd! :bouncy:"

With out the screaming crowd,you may just find out how bad those things really sound.:eek: :eek: .

Course we all know opinions are like A_ _ _ _ _ _ S. :moon:

And that is just mine :hmm:

Oldmics

Thom
12-27-2006, 06:40 PM
When I started there were basically two types who had JBL's. One had money and the other would rather have sound than eat. I'll get in trouble for this but they were the ones that I believe at least one member believes were not worthy. It was a different time. Egg flats on the walls were not uncommon I could go on. Then there were the people who had to have the newest best etc. Every good audio store that I knew of had a used and consigned area. Trade ins were one way they got some customers into more expensive equipment. Want to trade a Rega in on a Linn. No problem. Mac or Bryston on levinson you bet. It was common for people to take certain pieces home to live with a few days before buying. And like I said there were the perfectly ugly systems that sounded sweet. Buying a self contained speaker system is really not that old of a concept. Probably started with AR# I can' say for sure but if speaker systems were self contained packages what would the market for the AR1W have been. Its probably in the last 30 or so years that it was discovered that with some work you could get some pretty lousy drivers to sound good together. When Harmon decided to start releasing speaker systems with the JBL name with drivers that didn't resemble anything that JBL PRO (once JBL) produced, that is when JBL became "one more speaker.".
As far as making parts available for the pro line, when the installed base of JBL Pro drivers can no longer be used, a very large market for pro speakers will open up. So JBL probably is looking at a couple of things. What are they making keeping these speakers running vs what they would make replacing them. They have most of this repair market, how much of the replacement market will they have. If they do it right they will have the new repair market also . If they screw up they miss this replacement market that they force and get locked out of the new repair market. You want to sell a new razor now and then, but it's important that the customer still ends up with a razor that only uses your blades. If they follow the computer printer model they will make trade deals or whatever it takes and there will be enough new patents that no one but them can legally make repair kits.

They were first playing with quad when I was selling audio. We were primarily a JBL component shop that pretty much thought MR. Lansing would be rolling over in his grave if he heard some of these packaged systems, Especially the LE series. we just explained that for the same money you could get a lot more sound in stereo. We didn't put it down. There wasn't a standard at the time and we did point that out but we just showed what it would cost to do things right with 2 more channels, and demonstrated different equipment. We sold $80.00 AR turntables, threw a Grado in with almost anything sold Dyna and D series JBL and people could easily see that the sound difference for the money was there. It was Klipsch running around bitching about a good 5 watt amp but if you are on a budget there is something to be said for efficiency

The L100 cost almost $300.00 per ea in 1973 and was just about where real JBL started and some people would debate that so it was dollars I think the 200 was $600 or $700 per ea but I'm less sure of that.

4313B
12-27-2006, 07:00 PM
What's your point?

Tom Loizeaux
12-27-2006, 07:01 PM
Remember that the big earthquake a number of years ago set off the sprinkler system at JBL's Northridge plant, ruinning tons of vintage parts, tooling and paperwork. The story goes that a number of dumpsters were filled with the water-soaked stuff and was destroyed.
I think JBL was happy to continue to supply these parts, as long as they lasted, to vintage customers. Unfortunatly they lost much of that potential.
Re-manufacturing these items was deemed economically undoable.

They decided that new technology and new products were where they needed to focus their efforts.
Their consumer stuff is of no intrest to me, but they DO still make some very good, high quality gear and are responsive to the pro audio world, in my opinion.

Tom

4313B
12-27-2006, 07:05 PM
Their consumer stuff is of no intrest to meThat's too bad. JBL Pro is as good as ever but Consumer is where the best parts are.

macaroonie
12-27-2006, 07:22 PM
Anyone involved in this forum I suspect will have an aversion to plastic. Plastic is flimsy, metal is not therefore metal is good , and it lasts. I suspect that there is just too much plastic floating around in the current product line for our taste. To put it another way .... Bose do plastic JBL do not or rather didn't. Is this not really the nub of the matter. .......... or.......... conversely the old metal radial horns as we know rang like bells literally whereas the new abs etc horns do not.
In the same vein the Control 1 is a wonderful unit for the job for which it was intended and has been a continuing success for nearly 20 years. Mostly plastic.
I have no real answers lets face it they are massively successsful in just about every area of l/s manufacture you can imagine ( although they did not introduce the Rock speaker (I think ) although they should have).
I am in accord with the general tone of the thread and this is why : the last REALLY good L series.........
Round about 1984 the first Ti series arrived and as i recall the 18Ti , a tiny speaker even by our standards sold for about £650 a pair. Now these were so obviously well made that we had no trouble at all selling many pairs. Size for size they made the other brands sound frankly, stupid. Quality of all sorts shone through in spades and for that reason customers were very content to part with their hard earnds. In that era JBL had the radiance series and for the same money you could have had two pairs of the largest in the line.
But they were crap although they sort of had the signature sound , almost.
I still know three people who still REALLY enjoy those little 18's 20 plus years on. Aint seen a radiance in at least a decade (oops ).
I suspect that the problem is that the trickle down is not that apparent or at least not as much as it was in the past. Everest did not quite percolate did it...... not in vinyl wrap boxes at any rate.
IMHO JBL do have a gap and it is just this .. well made domestic versions of the TOTL models and not at $X... 000. No problem with a high price for a well made product just keep it in the ballpark. I,m sure that a great number of people would pay gladly for a GOOD distillation of the new flagship. This in turn would reinforce the overall brand etc etc
Happy NEW YEAR

macaroonie
12-27-2006, 07:27 PM
I was just looking up at Giskards posts total and suddenly felt small and humble. One day .....:applaud:

4313B
12-27-2006, 07:40 PM
I was just looking up at Giskards posts total and suddenly felt small and humble. One day .....:applaud:I shudder to think what my actual post total really is. :barf:
This is like the third or fourth version of this forum. I used to be more active years ago.


Here are a few clues as to what is happening.

1.) Globalization

2.) JBL is Big Business

3.) Competition is fierce

JBL's strategy allows for it's continued existance.

BTW - Revel is supposed to be the premiere Consumer loudspeaker line within Harman International.
Everest II was never supposed to happen.
I'm glad it did, it's a splendid design.

Mr. Widget
12-27-2006, 07:45 PM
Everest II was never supposed to happen.
I'm glad it did, it's a splendid design.Ditto!


Widget

Thom
12-27-2006, 07:55 PM
What's your point?

You're right ,I ramble, but if I could boil something down to a very concise point or two I doubt you would be much interested anyway.

4313B
12-27-2006, 08:00 PM
Probably not. Various members have gone over this from time to time and it merely points out the fact that "they really don't understand big business" as JBL put it. Believe it or not JBL does read these threads. See post #73. Frankly, I figure you guys are just venting about something.

LowPhreak
12-27-2006, 09:33 PM
If "understanding big business" means screwing your base, then I guess I don't get it.

Actually, "big business" today means screwing anyone you can if there's a nickel left to be drained.

spkrman57
12-27-2006, 09:33 PM
Quoted from Giskard:

[/quote]
JBL's strategy allows for it's continued existance.

BTW - Revel is supposed to be the premiere Consumer loudspeaker line within Harman International.
Everest II was never supposed to happen.
I'm glad it did, it's a splendid design.[/quote]

I agree that if JBL/Harmon would cater to most of the folks on this forum, they would be out of business.

Also, I'm glad for the great things that do come out of JBL(DD66000). While I can't afford a pair, at least my goal one day will be to hear a pair.

So I'm just glad for the things that are coming out that follow my love for horn-loaded speaker systems.

And we do get the skinny on these great ideas from the designer/engineers, something that is important to me.

I'm really surprised JBL does anything for us considering the bickering I have read in recent months.

How about we concentrate on the positive points here, instead of biting the hand that feeds us!

Hope I have not offended anyone.

Ron

Robh3606
12-27-2006, 09:41 PM
If "understanding big business" means screwing your base, then I guess I don't get it.

We on this forum are not JBL's base by any means. Big Business means you have happy stockholders, you do R+D and you know your markets. All of which Harmon has been very successful with. That makes me very happy because as long as they are doing well they may choose to keep supporting 40 year old products. I don't think there is another speaker manufacturer around today that can make that claim. If you think that their support for what many consider relics from the past is screwing you, then I quess I don't get it either.

Rob:)

Steve Schell
12-27-2006, 09:57 PM
In the late 1940s, Jim Lansing stated to Hal Cox something like the following:

"In the past I have brought fine quality sound to the motion picture theatre. With my new company I intend to bring the finest in sound to people in the home."

Well, JBL has deviated a bit from this singular goal in recent decades. I'm not thrilled about this, but am very happy that the brand has survived and prospered mightily for so long. Stockholders of Harman International should be pleased as well:

http://finance.yahoo.com/charts#chart1:symbol=har;range=my;indicator=volume ;charttype=line;crosshair=on;logscale=on;source=un defined

Ducatista47
12-27-2006, 10:07 PM
BTW - Revel is supposed to be the premiere Consumer loudspeaker line within Harman International.
Everest II was never supposed to happen.
I'm glad it did, it's a splendid design.

Two of my favorite incidents in JBL history that I am aware of are how Mr. Timbers crusaded singlehandedly for his 250Ti design, and however the DD66000 managed to be produced despite the reality of your quote above.

The market at large deserting big monitors professionally and floorstanding home speakers - no fault of JBL's - are developments that sadden me whenever I think about them. I must be one extinct species, alright.

Is anyone in a position to tell me how the DD66000 did manage to see the light of day?

BTW, I think Harman/JBL is doing a generous job of support. Staying in business is the only smart move. Not to mention the only possible move if support is a goal. It beats me how some of us can continually fault them for that...

Clark

Mr. Widget
12-27-2006, 10:07 PM
In the late 1940s, Jim Lansing stated to Hal Cox something like the following:

"In the past I have brought fine quality sound to the motion picture theatre. With my new company I intend to bring the finest in sound to people in the home."

Well, JBL has deviated a bit from this singular goal in recent decades. I'm not thrilled about this, but am very happy that the brand has survived and prospered mightily for so long. Stockholders of Harman International should be pleased as well...Steve, we don't always agree...;) but I agree completely on this one... for me, the beginning of the end was the introduction of the Radiance Series... and the recent rebirth was with the Project Array Series and the perfectly wonderful Everest DD66000s!


Widget

LowPhreak
12-27-2006, 10:13 PM
With out the screaming crowd,you may just find out how bad those things really sound.:eek: :eek: .


Now you know darned well that the response curve with an audience is designed into the array. ;) Seriously, I've not heard a Vertec PA yet, unless that's what the Stones had some years ago in Syracuse on the Bridges to Babylon tour. (?) None of the shows I've seen since had Vertec.

Best I've heard was Santana in RPI Fieldhouse (hockey rink). This was before Vertec. 3x 18" JBL drivers per cab, probably 15 cabs per side, I didn't count them. But it's not a fair judgment because I was only about 12' from the left stack. :coolness:


:band:

Steve Schell
12-27-2006, 10:15 PM
Yep, no doubt about it. I think that Greg Timbers is the present day embodiment of Jim Lansing's skill and spirit at JBL, and I imagine ol' Jim would be tickled pink at his body of work.

Robh3606
12-27-2006, 10:23 PM
Yep, no doubt about it. I think that Greg Timbers is the present day embodiment of Jim Lansing's skill and spirit at JBL, and I imagine ol' Jim would be tickled pink at his body of work.


Well said:applaud:

Rob:)

Mr. Widget
12-27-2006, 10:30 PM
"I intend to bring the finest in sound to people in the home."-Jim Lansing

I think it is this spirit which has all of us so devoted to this brand... if the mission statement had been to provide acceptable quality at the lowest possible price... I doubt so many of us would really give a hoot.

I also thank Greg Timbers and the handful of others in Northridge who still carry the torch.


Widget

speakerdave
12-27-2006, 11:07 PM
Me too, and I also want to acknowledge the recently offered opportunity to have access to the makings of a first class JBL 2-way. I don't think this is any coincidence. It's very nice of those guys.

David

LowPhreak
12-27-2006, 11:20 PM
Robh -

By "base" I mean those that are JBL "loyalists", meaning those that have owned vintage stuff and newer, that have bought their products on any sort of regular basis for years and have clued others to the greatness of JBL, and those that want something better than the JBL sold at Best Buy.

For example, I'd like to see models like the 4428, 4318, 4338, 4348 here in the US but not costing $6k+. There doesn't seem to be much in the $1500.-3500. range right now.

Titanium Dome
12-28-2006, 01:04 AM
I consider myself part of JBL's base and a JBL loyalist. Whether it's the L100s I bought new in 1970 or the Performance Series I bought new in 2003, or the LX300s or Simply Cinema or EONs or L7s or Creatures or whatever I've bought new from JBL, I've never felt screwed.

So did I miss something? Did I get it up the :moon: and not even know it? Nope.

I've always been able to get parts and service I needed (which was very rare BTW) for anything new I bought, even ten or more years later. If I were lucky enough to get some great used JBLs, I was usually able to get any parts I needed for them, too. If the parts were no longer available, well, you know what: it was used, and I knew that going in, and JBL didn't owe me a thing anyway because they didn't sell it to me.

Yes, the marketing is weak and the distribution system is impaired, but we've beaten those dead horses many times. If we're talking about product variety and quality, there's no time like now.

4313B
12-28-2006, 07:59 AM
I'm really surprised JBL does anything for us considering the bickering I have read in recent months.That most likely came to an end with the way the Array and Everest II threads played out. Those debacles left more than a few very unhappy. I rank those threads as perfect examples of why this chit chat crap should be shut down permanently. That isn't going to happen though.

4313B
12-28-2006, 08:05 AM
If "understanding big business" means screwing your base, then I guess I don't get it.

Actually, "big business" today means screwing anyone you can if there's a nickel left to be drained.


We on this forum are not JBL's base by any means. Big Business means you have happy stockholders, you do R+D and you know your markets. All of which Harmon has been very successful with. That makes me very happy because as long as they are doing well they may choose to keep supporting 40 year old products. I don't think there is another speaker manufacturer around today that can make that claim. If you think that their support for what many consider relics from the past is screwing you, then I quess I don't get it either.

Rob:)Nice reply! :)

LowPhreak
12-28-2006, 08:07 AM
Opinions vary. :dont-know

4313B
12-28-2006, 08:11 AM
Yep, no doubt about it. I think that Greg Timbers is the present day embodiment of Jim Lansing's skill and spirit at JBL, and I imagine ol' Jim would be tickled pink at his body of work.I agree.

4313B
12-28-2006, 08:18 AM
For example, I'd like to see models like the 4428, 4318, 4338, 4348 here in the US but not costing $6k+.Well maybe JBL can join so many other American corporations in the global hunt for cheap labor. They should probably start thinking about outsourcing IT and Engineering to India and Manufacturing to Peru.

4313B
12-28-2006, 08:30 AM
Yes, the marketing is weak and the distribution system is impaired.I remember a conversation during which JBL agreed.

The JBL Consumer website is being restructured.

http://www.jbl.com/home/where_to_buy/default.aspx?Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA

Titanium Dome
12-28-2006, 09:02 AM
I remember a conversation during which JBL agreed.

The JBL Consumer website is being restructured.

http://www.jbl.com/home/where_to_buy/default.aspx?Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA

There's no doubt JBL/Harman puts A LOT of effort into the Web. IMO the amount of information available is impressive, and it's unduplicated by any other non-Harman brand.

The new look is an improvement. (The "artists den" works better now, too, and I sometimes leave it on in the background when I'm surfing.)

SEAWOLF97
12-28-2006, 09:35 AM
Well maybe JBL can join so many other American corporations in the global hunt for cheap labor. They should probably start thinking about outsourcing IT and Engineering to India and Manufacturing to Peru.

we already see on the consumer side..

JBL Mexico
JBL Canada
JBL China
JBL Peru ...coming soon , after JBL Cambodia

MJC
12-28-2006, 09:37 AM
If we're talking about product variety and quality, there's no time like now.

I totally agree. Although I haven't auditioned the Everest, K2, Project Array, as we know, the very top of the line, I do have the PS and Studio L series. Both are excellent systems. How you and I managed to get the PS @ or below $500/ea when the list is $1700/ea is beyond my understanding. How did anybody make any money on our purchases, considering what we paid?
The studio Ls are made in Mexico, but the PS is made in Northridge.
So it is that you don't have to spend $5k or more to get a good JBL system, at least on the consumer lines.

4313B
12-28-2006, 09:44 AM
How you and I managed to get the PS @ or below $500/ea when the list is $1700/ea is beyond my understanding.They were probably hot. :p Employees can't even get them that cheap and Employee price is below Dealer price.

Another possibility is that a Dealer took a bath on them because they couldn't move them and simply needed to get them off the inventory list.

I think a few other forum members also managed to get pairs at drastically reduced prices.

LowPhreak
12-28-2006, 09:51 AM
So it is that you don't have to spend $5k or more to get a good JBL system, at least on the consumer lines.

That's a ridiculous statement. :bash: How often will someone be able to get the deal that you did?

MJC
12-28-2006, 09:52 AM
They were probably hot or maybe remanufactured. Employees can't even get them that cheap and Employee price is below Dealer price.
I think the original ones Dome bought, he got from a Synthesis dealer in NY. The dealer ordered them for a customer and then didn't want them.
As for the 5 I bought, on ebay, from a guy in NoCal, he seemed to really need the cash. As to where he got them or what he paid is anyones guess.

MJC
12-28-2006, 09:53 AM
That's a ridiculous statement. :bash: How often will someone be able to get the deal that you did?
Dome got a better deal than I did!

4313B
12-28-2006, 09:54 AM
I think the original ones Dome bought, he got from a Synthesis dealer in NY. The dealer ordered them for a customer and then didn't want them.
As for the 5 I bought, on ebay, from a guy in NoCal, he seemed to really need the cash. As to where he got them or what he paid is anyones guess.
Ah! I think there was a SoCal Dealer who was giving them away too.

In any case, I think you guys ended up with some very nice JBL's. :yes:

MJC
12-28-2006, 10:01 AM
Ah! I think there was a SoCal Dealer who was giving them away too.

In any case, I think you guys ended up with some very nice JBL's. :yes:
Yes we did, and the only reason I got them for as cheap as I did is because NO one else bid on them. I put in a single bid, which was the "starting bid". The buy now price was $5k for 5.
I fully excepted to see that auction pulled when I got home, if no one else put in a bid.

LowPhreak
12-28-2006, 10:02 AM
Dome got a better deal than I did!

OK, so we're all going to go out and get PS800's/1400's as you did, any time we're ready to buy. Yep, I shoulda bought a dozen or so as stocking-stuffers for the rest of the family at x-mas.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Are you guys always this disingenuous?

MJC
12-28-2006, 10:08 AM
OK, so we're all going to go out and get PS800's/1400's as you did, any time we're ready to buy. Yep, I shoulda bought a dozen or so as stocking-stuffers for the rest of the family at x-mas.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Are you guys always this disingenuous?
I only got the PT800s. The buyer didn't have any subs or a center. Which is maybe why no one else bid them. The PT800s need subs, and I already had plenty.
btw, I'd only been looking for them for 5 years!
As for my pair of Studio L890s, I bought them from Frys electronics for a total of $200 below list. And they are very nice speakers for the $1400 I paid. About two months later. I saw the 890s on WWW.buy.com (http://www.buy.com) for about 60% of what I paid. They said they had a limited suppy @ that price. And they didn't last long, either.

Mr. Widget
12-28-2006, 10:23 AM
Yes we did, and the only reason I got them for as cheap as I did is because NO one else bid on them.You can thank me later...:D I thought about bidding on them, but really don't have any extra cash or space at the moment...:( That said, I am glad that they went to such an appreciative owner.



Are you guys always this disingenuous?Please tone it down.


Widget

MJC
12-28-2006, 10:45 AM
You can thank me later...:D I thought about bidding on them, but really don't have any extra cash or space at the moment...:( That said, I am glad that they went to such an appreciative owner.
Widget
Thanks, I think Dome was holding back to.
And they are great speakers.
I went though the process of building up a 2 channel L212 system to 7 channels, over a 3 year period, because I couldn't find a dealer anywhere within 500 miles that had the PS. And then after JBL came out with the in-wall version of the PT800s and were certified THX the price of the free standing PT800s jumped. The price @ the time I read a review was less than $7k for 5.2 system.
And lets get real, as good as my 7 channel L212 is they were designed for analog, not digital.
The PT800s seem to be quite a bit faster at reproducing sound effects on movies. I'm using the same two subs as I was with the L212s.
I read a review once about some brand of speaker or another and he refered them as being fast. At the time I wasn't quite sure what he meant.

Thom
12-28-2006, 12:24 PM
Me too, and I also want to acknowledge the recently offered opportunity to have access to the makings of a first class JBL 2-way. I don't think this is any coincidence. It's very nice of those guys
David

When I rep'd we always had prices for dealers employees that were better than our best dealer prices based as much as anything on ; when a customer asks a salesman what he has at home you would really like him to say he has your product.

A mfg can afford to sell parts for a fraction of retail if it is careful who it does this to. The true cost includes R&D advertising and many other things but if none of the discounted units displace units that would have been bought otherwise than as long as they get cost of production they break even.

This site is or has the potential to be valuable to Harmon just for the information it contains, providing they can mine it for a reasonable fee. I have no idea if they do it but ; over a period of time they could type different posters and throw some away give various weight to others.

Polk has a sponsored "club". It gets parts discounts and other little "perks". If you call to get a replacement part they are quite likely to suggest that you call up and join the club. I am only guessing, but I imagine it's the information they are after, and perhaps they build some brand loyalty as well.

4313B
12-28-2006, 01:24 PM
Your posts are kind of hard to understand.

spkrman57
12-28-2006, 02:55 PM
we should all dump our JBL's and buy Polk speakers!:blink:

Polk has a sponsored "club". It gets parts discounts and other little "perks". If you call to get a replacement part they are quite likely to suggest that you call up and join the club. I am only guessing, but I imagine it's the information they are after, and perhaps they build some brand loyalty as well.

Well to put it bluntly, I like the sound of JBL speakers. Whether or not they decide to bother with us on the forum and give us special deals or not.;)

They are a business, not pen-pals!

Ron

Thom
12-28-2006, 08:31 PM
we should all dump our JBL's and buy Polk speakers!:blink:

Polk has a sponsored "club". It gets parts discounts and other little "perks". If you call to get a replacement part they are quite likely to suggest that you call up and join the club. I am only guessing, but I imagine it's the information they are after, and perhaps they build some brand loyalty as well.

Well to put it bluntly, I like the sound of JBL speakers. Whether or not they decide to bother with us on the forum and give us special deals or not.;)

They are a business, not pen-pals!

Ron

That's kind of an ignorant response. I don't want to be misunderstood. I support your right to be ignorant. I just wanted to point it out.

I looked at it again and maybe it's just a simple response when the facts aren't simple. so I'll type real slow and we'll try it again.

The example was to show that another mfg has its way to listen in so to speak on a group of its customers. I wasn't making any comparison between JBL and Polk one way or another I'm just saying here is something another company which is in business to make money by making and selling speakers does that looks philanthropic but I'm sure it fits into and is part of their business plan.
I certainly wasn't trying to bring it to JBL's attn. because I'd be shocked if they weren't aware of it.

I'm saying that what ever we might get from corporate is likely because it fits or they believe it may fit a useful role. I'm not saying that's bad either. I'm saying, I guess that Greg Timbers may be flesh and blood ( I've never met the man and I want to be careful) and warm and the rest of it but I can't imagine you get much past him before that quits, at least as far as any of us are concerned, And in my other post I was saying that if we get a deep discount on something. Unless we were going to purchase it through normal channels otherwise, anything above actual production cost is profit because the rest of what usually is figured into cost is fixed and didn't go up with our acquiring a unit.
On the other hand if you were planing on buying something at retail and didn't because of getting it at deep discount their cost was greater on that one.

4313B
12-28-2006, 08:54 PM
That's kind of an ignorant response. I don't want to be misunderstood. I support your right to be ignorant. I just wanted to point it out.I'm going to ask you point blank - what is your adgenda here?

Robh3606
12-28-2006, 09:46 PM
I looked at it again and maybe it's just a simple response when the facts aren't simple. so I'll type real slow and we'll try it again

I looked at your last 2 posts and I will type slow to make sure I get it right. JBL corporate has absolutely nothing to do with the management of this site. Any of the help we have recieved from Greg or anyone else has been in the spirit of helping fellow enthusiasts. There is no underlying motive behind it.

Rob:)

hjames
12-29-2006, 05:48 AM
I looked at your last 2 posts and I will type slow to make sure I get it right. JBL corporate has absolutely nothing to do with the management of this site. Any of the help we have recieved from Greg or anyone else has been in the spirit of helping fellow enthusiasts. There is no underlying motive behind it.

Rob:)

Oh, come on now, give him his pair of free Everest speakers so he can continue to promote the brand and be done with it ...:rotfl::nutz:

He's obviously a GREAT RESOURCE for JBL promotion!:moon:

Maron Horonzakz
12-29-2006, 06:41 AM
And this site has just take,n an ugly turn.;) :barf:

4313B
12-29-2006, 06:47 AM
And this site has just take,n an ugly turn.;) :barf:Nope. That officially happened 06-30-2004. Since then we've been playing whack-a-mole.

hjames
12-29-2006, 06:51 AM
Nope. That officially happened 06-30-2004. Since then we've been playing whack-a-mole.

Ok - what troll are we speaking of - or, is it a mole ...
Are we doomed to be repeatedly bashed about the head and feet by some angry ex-member here?

4313B
12-29-2006, 07:16 AM
Are we doomed to be repeatedly bashed about the head and feet by some angry ex-member here?I'm not sure. :dont-know I do know that quite a few members are really not in the mood to deal with it anymore. I'm going to try Mr. Widget's tact - ignore it and it might go away instead of my usual tact - toss a grenade at it knowing that it will go away. Past events have proven that there is too much collateral damage from grenade tosses. Maybe a sniper or two instead... :hmm:

Really the whole problem is that once a member is put on an ignore list their name still shows up in threads. I don't need to constantly see:

This message is hidden because <insert ignoramus here> is on your ignore list.

To me that hardly qualifies as ignoring someone. Out of sight, out of mind. This software needs an upgrade.

LowPhreak
12-29-2006, 07:45 AM
Ignore lists...isn't technology wonderful? :) Works for me.

hjames
12-29-2006, 07:52 AM
I'm not sure. :dont-know I do know that quite a few members are really not in the mood to deal with it anymore. I'm going to try Mr. Widget's tact - ignore it and it might go away instead of my usual tact - toss a grenade at it knowing that it will go away. Past events have proven that there is too much collateral damage from grenade tosses. Maybe a sniper or two instead... :hmm:

Really the whole problem is that once a member is put on an ignore list their name still shows up in threads. I don't need to constantly see:

This message is hidden because <insert ignoramus here> is on your ignore list.

To me that hardly qualifies as ignoring someone. Out of sight, out of mind. This software needs an upgrade.


Okay - I've tossed a couple of tossers in the ignore file and I'll see how that plays out - anything to raise the signal-to-noise in the tech threads would help.

In the "Off-topic threads - I like the "What are you listening to" threads - folks have turned me on to some real good sounds there, but most of the other off-topic threads are downright vicious right now.

Matter of fact, there are a lot of angry folks on-site these days -

4313B
12-29-2006, 08:21 AM
In the "Off-topic threads - I like the "What are you listening to" threads - folks have turned me on to some real good sounds there, but most of the other off-topic threads are downright vicious right now.

Matter of fact, there are a lot of angry folks on-site these days -Yeah, I've noticed. A few Section 8's mixed in with more than a few who apparently aren't getting their needs met.

GordonW
12-29-2006, 08:51 AM
Matter of fact, there are a lot of angry folks on-site these days -


I found myself becoming one of those angry folks, and being upset by other angry folks... so I just decided to curtail my reading here. Only pop in every once in a while now... and only let myself reply, when I think it's "appropriate" to do.

Seems to have worked for me... though, I find myself being here less and less, as time goes on, to keep to my regimen above. And once in a while, I still seem to go off the deep end, a bit. Kind of a shame...

Sometimes you just need outside perspective... taking a break once in a while (and preferably, WITHOUT blowing up and making a spectacle of yourself beforehand) is good...


Regards,
Gordon.

LowPhreak
12-29-2006, 09:14 AM
...but most of the other off-topic threads are downright vicious right now.



Yeah, I've noticed. A few Section 8's mixed in with more than a few who apparently aren't getting their needs met.

Along with the Ignore List feature, there are also the options of not clicking into or posting on threads that one might not enjoy...instead of ridiculing those that do or beefing.

:banghead:

Imagine that!

spkrman57
12-29-2006, 09:21 AM
I like JBL products.:)

This is a JBL orientated forum and I see no need to question why JBL/Harmon does what they do.:biting:

I just try and benefit from it!;)

Ron:(

hjames
12-29-2006, 09:38 AM
Along with the Ignore List feature, there are also the options of not clicking into or posting on threads that one might not enjoy...instead of ridiculing those that do or beefing.

:banghead:

Imagine that!

I've been here a while and, ya'know, I actually tried that for a while!
The problem is that when the flamewars slow in the off-topic threads, folks come and bring their economic theories and political harangues into the DIY and geeky threads, and diminish the quality of discussion there.

Doesn't matter - when a simple wish for Happy Holidays turns into a smarmy insult-fest, when a discussion of perceived loss of brand satisfaction turns into a pretty blatent hint that forum members should get special dispensations from the marque ... its such a complete joke for them I suppose!

But a lot of folks do come here to trade tips and notes on speaker and audio technology - and all that political crap can just go to the Limburger-Liberally argumented forum and leave the rest of us to talk tech here.

LowPhreak
12-29-2006, 09:55 AM
...The problem is that when the flamewars slow in the off-topic threads, folks come and bring their economic theories and political harangues into the DIY and geeky threads, and diminish the quality of discussion there.



That's not good. The tech/geek threads should be moderated to keep them in line with the topic matter. There's plenty of room at the back of the bus for the snarky stuff.

4313B
12-29-2006, 09:57 AM
Along with the Ignore List feature, there are also the options of not clicking into or posting on threads that one might not enjoy...instead of ridiculing those that do or beefing.

:banghead:

Imagine that!Oh we are imagining quite a few solutions at the moment and hope to have it taken care of sooner rather than later.

4313B
12-29-2006, 10:02 AM
That's not good. The tech/geek threads should be moderated to keep them in line with the topic matter. There's plenty of room at the back of the bus for the snarky stuff.It's my opinion that there is a World Wide Web out there to handle the snarky stuff.

hjames
12-29-2006, 10:20 AM
It's my opinion that there is a World Wide Web out there to handle the snarky stuff.

YES!! Bless you - I agree - please ... I encourage that sentiment!!

There are PLENTY of OTHER site for politically oriented discussions.
Please can-it here - a snarky comment or two is one thing, but the long , blood and bones baring fights that seems to encourage just means there are angry folks on the site when they go to other threads to read and reply, which means civil discussions get uncivilized real fast.

I mean, we already have the long lived war between the tubers and silicon fans, to say nothing of the wars between Alnico, ferrites and the newer ND advocates, ya don't need any other triggers to light folks up, right?

- addendum - I forgot the war between aluminum, Titanium and the BE diaphram contingents ...
or the conies and the Hornies ...

Mr. Widget
12-29-2006, 10:46 AM
I mean, we already have the long lived war between the tubers and silicon fans, to say nothing of the wars between Alnico, ferrites and the newer ND advocates, ya don't need any other triggers to light folks up, right?

- addendum - I forgot the war between aluminum, Titanium and the BE diaphram contingents ...
or the conies and the Hornies ...Oh No!

Don't bring those topics up.... we get much more heated about these topics so close to our hearts than who should be sitting at a large desk in a funny shaped room.:argue:



Widget

BTW: I recently noticed that JBL Pro has the ring radiators listed as current product... I assume they haven't updated their site. Does anyone have a list of their current components that they are offering?

4313B
12-29-2006, 10:50 AM
http://www.jblpro.com/FullLineCat/Portable%20C.pdf

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Transducer%20List/Transducer%20List.pdf

briang
12-29-2006, 11:20 AM
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Transducer%20List/Transducer%20List.pdf

Thanks for that link Giskard. I see several items I will need to "stock" to keep my current JBLs in good health for years to come.

FWIW, I appriciate the technical threads here and those who give their time and knowlege to all of us here. I am humbled by your charity and altrism. Thank you.:)

LowPhreak
12-29-2006, 02:10 PM
...I mean, we already have the long lived war between the tubers and silicon fans, to say nothing of the wars between Alnico, ferrites and the newer ND advocates, ,,,- I forgot the war between aluminum, Titanium and the BE diaphram contingents ...
or the conies and the Hornies ...

You forgot to mention:

~ analog vs. digital
~ 2-channel vs. surround
~ ported vs. sealed vs. transmission line
~ Paiste vs. Zildjian
~ ale vs. lager vs. pilsner
~ Lynyrd Skynyrd vs. Gov't Mule
~ Pam vs. Crisco

Those are some of the more important ones anyway. :spin:

timc
12-31-2006, 04:25 PM
And Bush VS. The rest :p

Thom
01-01-2007, 11:11 AM
I like JBL products.:)

This is a JBL orientated forum and I see no need to question why JBL/Harmon does what they do.:biting:

I just try and benefit from it!;)

Ron:(

This seems a bit simple to me. I'm not saying that it's not OK for you, but it's unrealistic to expect it of others.
Whether it's scale model trains or motor cycles, few people have that complete blind follower mode. So to come down on anyone who dares a critical thought or a comparison or such is out of line. I'll not ridicule you for blind worship. Don't attack me if my admiration is a bit more critical.
You'll find people on here trying to make what they think is better, not than JBL could do, but than JBL was going to do for them. And that would not be possible without questioning.
As a large corporation, most likely their most successful venture is not the one that sounds the best. So questioning why they do certain things can be a very helpful tool.

MOST DIE HARD HARLEY FANS DON'T KICK BACK AND REMEMBER FONDLY THE AMF DAYS.

Actually for all I know maybe they do now, but they sure didn't used to. The point is either across or it isn't.

Thom
01-01-2007, 02:58 PM
Looks like I won't be buying a 2269 very soon. Every thing except the price.

Thom
01-01-2007, 03:02 PM
Some folks get it....


Others never will.....

I really don't understand the response but I never did so I guess that's just how it is. I hope your response appearing angry is just my paranoia.

On occasion I have seen original D130 cones for sale. Would a person be stuck using aftermarket coils and spyders to install these or can these also be found now and again?

hjames
01-01-2007, 03:09 PM
I just don't get what you are talking about? What exactly is your point?

I don't think many here are blind JBL followers, many have specific tastes and like various things from the lines - some newer, some older.

But it a few days you were talkin' like JBL ought to give us all special deals 'cause we were the "special core" of their fandom, and you implied that anyone that didn't get that was pretty thick.
Now, I can't even imagine what you are trying to say - help us out here, really ...





This seems a bit simple to me. I'm not saying that it's not OK for you, but it's unrealistic to expect it of others.
Whether it's scale model trains or motor cycles, few people have that complete blind follower mode. So to come down on anyone who dares a critical thought or a comparison or such is out of line. I'll not ridicule you for blind worship. Don't attack me if my admiration is a bit more critical.
You'll find people on here trying to make what they think is better, not than JBL could do, but than JBL was going to do for them. And that would not be possible without questioning.
As a large corporation, most likely their most successful venture is not the one that sounds the best. So questioning why they do certain things can be a very helpful tool.

Thom
01-01-2007, 04:10 PM
Heather I'm sure you'r right and I feel much better seeing it in writing I don't see the post now but you can see the quote in my post a couple posts back.That is all I was refering to. I guess my head spins whenever I hear "don't question". I'm sure at this point ir's been beet to death. I know I've never heard you say any such thing. Thanks much for your post.

Originally Posted by spkrman57 View Post
I like JBL products.

This is a JBL orientated forum and I see no need to question why JBL/Harmon does what they do.

I just try and benefit from it!

Ron

Thom
01-01-2007, 07:05 PM
Why do I have to have to have an agenda

I was trying to find out about and perhaps find a mate for my what I thought were much older than they are ampex 15 inch woofers that were obviously JBL and yet unlike any other I'd ever seen.

Why wouldn't I post here?

How did we get here from the previous posts. One should probably always question everything.
Not everything in the same way.

When I see something I know is incorrect, I try to correct.

when I see something that I believe is incorrect but I don't know for sure, I try to find out.

In the case of loudspeakers, I recently realised that I have almost understood how they work for a long time and I feel it's time to fill in the blanks. At the same time I don't believe in magic. There is no crystal on top of my microwave oven to protect me from the microwaves.

If this is a private forum fine if one spends enough time reading they could come to believe that it is a private forum and it is yours. I spent some time looking for such information and found none. I even asked you about yourself privately but you chose not to answer so it seams it would be a bit rude to go digging for information that you apparently don't want me to have. I'm sure you're not going to wast a lot of time reading about me so .

edgewound
01-01-2007, 07:13 PM
Heather I'm sure you'r right and I feel much better seeing it in writing I don't see the post now but you can see the quote in my post a couple posts back.That is all I was refering to. I guess my head spins whenever I hear "don't question". I'm sure at this point ir's been beet to death. I know I've never heard you say any such thing. Thanks much for your post.



Hey Thom...

Buddy...give us all a break.

If you were to bother to go back through the vast archives of this forum, you would sooner or later discover that we have all had some pretty sizeable frustrations with how Harman has run things as far as OEM parts and such.

I've been a JBL Servicer for 18+ years and have surely had my share of heartache with the parts supply.

Fortunatley a few upper executives had the foresight to see that Harman was on the road to their own demise through a lack of quality control....big time problem back in the 1990's.

Since that time, they have rolled up their sleeves and I'd say have done a remarkable job in improving product quality in each of their price points.

The quality of OEM parts has improved exponentially, not to mention the keeping levels of inventory at a more reasonable, attainable levels.

For instance...when I order a part from the Pro Division that is on backorder, they will put a delivery date sometimes two months out. In reality it might show up next week. Is that perfect? No...but in todays' Just-In-Time manufacturing climate it's a major improvement over stating two months out that turns into six months out.

Harman has done a respectable job keeping lots of plates spinning.
Parts revenue is probably somewhere in the neighbor hood of $10-15 million annually....alot of that which goes to keeping old products alive and kicking....pretty generous of a Fortune 500 multinational.

You should really start researching the forum for some of this info...it's really old news, and it gets very frustrating trying to put a coherent spin on some of your posts.

I have a hand cramp now and need to take a break.


Happy New Year:)

Thom
01-01-2007, 09:34 PM
I don't get it. I'm not screaming about much if anything. I have no idea what is so special about when I joined but I guess it's a secret because after making something of it you didn't enlighten me. You haven't seen passive aggressive. The company has an interest in its product performing properly unless they have completely moved on. Such as if they were making actuators today instead of loudspeakers than what product with their name on it sounds like would be irrelevant. I don't get this "you haven't suffered what I've suffered" thing I never really understood Harmon, didn't they hang onto germanium about as long as Sherwood or something? Anytime someone says "I'm not going to question it" that gets my atten. I remember a time when sometimes JBL would repair items and then not acknowledge that a repair had been done because they weren't acknowledging a defect so no charge. I get the feeling that some here think that because they may know something I don't I couldn't have any facts they are unaware of. I wouldn't be foolish enough to make that assumption of anyone but you may if you wish. I try to maintain composed enough not to say " I want my F--- horn"on a public forum so make of things what you will. You actually seam somewhat interesting but it's obvious that I'll never know you so that is meaningless. Would you only have me post when I agree with something? Is there a little cheerleaders outfit? sounds boring. I went back through this thread and there is some serious bitching. I think none of them said the horn thing didnt put you in best light and that is what this is all about. You are obviously very valuable to know so I'm going to hate myself in the morning but being that much better than everybody else must be a terrible burden.

Ian Mackenzie
01-02-2007, 05:46 AM
Only tonight I had an opportunity to read this read. The first four pages were quite interesting and mirror my experiences. I must say have never really had a problem with parts but I suppose if you are in the recone industry it would be more obvious I expect.

At our age as users I expect you will be dead or deaf before the need arises for re-coning a fresh kit.

I was really into JBL from the late 70's to the mid eighties. The brand then faded a bit and has made a come back in the late 90's. About that time I regained interest in JBL but it was the classic prefessional series stuff.

The simple reason was I aligned to and preferred the core characteristics of the classic JBL sound at its best compared to another Pro brand monitor (RCF) I was using at the time.

The flip side is a lot vintage JBL users are down selling the brand by using the vintage stuff with less than AAA+ electronics. Be it old door stoppers or the new home threatre wonder boxes they are bad news. I know as I have been there and its just plain sad.

The Japanese users really know how to get the best out of their vintage systems as noted by Steve K's recent posts. On that basis I have thrown out my proccessor /pre and bought Lavry DA10 convertor (CD)and a Pass X2.5 preamp. Sorry but I don't consider home theatre high quality audio (Dolby digital / DTS 5.1). Its entertainment value but that's all.

There simply is no substitute for quality.

This is why a hate reading about re-edging and after maket diaphragms. Pity we still see Emperors without the clothes waxing procedures about this sort of thing and their enormously exacting 1/3 band graphics. The two just don't go hand in hand. Go figure.

If you really want the real deal its probably fair to say that a kit that has been inspected / installed by Giskard is as good as its ever going to be. The maticulous approach and attention to detail is superb and that is what makes JBL the brand as we know it.

Speaking of parts, a picture says a 100 words.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=13788

Ian

MJC
01-02-2007, 07:47 PM
Sorry but I don't consider home theatre high quality audio (Dolby digital / DTS 5.1). Its entertainment value but that's all.
It is if you're running DVD-A and SACD thru the same system! DTS 96/24 is sweet as well as true lossless dvd-A, as is SACD.

Titanium Dome
01-02-2007, 10:53 PM
(snip)

The flip side is a lot vintage JBL users are down selling the brand by using the vintage stuff with less than AAA+ electronics. Be it old door stoppers or the new home threatre wonder boxes they are bad news. I know as I have been there and its just plain sad.

The Japanese users really know how to get the best out of their vintage systems as noted by Steve K's recent posts. On that basis I have thrown out my proccessor /pre and bought Lavry DA10 convertor (CD)and a Pass X2.5 preamp. Sorry but I don't consider home theatre high quality audio (Dolby digital / DTS 5.1). Its entertainment value but that's all.

There simply is no substitute for quality.

This is why a hate reading about re-edging and after maket diaphragms. Pity we still see Emperors without the clothes waxing procedures about this sort of thing and their enormously exacting 1/3 band graphics. The two just don't go hand in hand. Go figure.

(snip)

Ian

Hey Ian, cheers on the New Year and rippingly written.

A bold stroke for the new year... and I enjoy the diversity of candid opinion :yes:, but no need to apologize for being wrong about home theatre and its attendant equipment IF you're also including multichannel audio in that group. Now you were quite careful (I think) to say "home theatre" and did not specifically write "multichannel audio" so perhaps you're making a distinction or perhaps not.

In actuality, I won't defend home theatre, because I essentially agree with your critique; however, I'm pretty serious about multichannel audio. While I enjoy a good mono or stereo system and even some vintage audio equipment, it's all pretty much a BWOT as far as I'm concerned.

For those who relish the stereophonic experience, heaven is at hand with new two-channel technology, but to me it's so much old theory in a new wrapper and not really advancing the art. Multichannel audio does advance the art IMO, and done well offers an unsurpassed home musical experience.

A lot of folks will argue about what "done well" means, but that's relative to the individual, just as the preference for mono, stereo, or multichannel, tubes or SS, horns or DR, etc., will be driven by personal taste.

Ian Mackenzie
01-03-2007, 02:24 AM
Yes I was refering to Home Theatre Video Music DVD's in Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS played via a home theatre amp with all those bells and buttons not pure SACD or DVD A or pure DTS music disks.

My decoder can playback 24/96 and I look forward to that when the time comes.


Ian

Titanium Dome
01-06-2007, 01:18 PM
I took out the DVD-A of Beatles LOVE, that was part of the package I bought at Target for $15.88 and decided to play it, since I'd spun the stereo version many times. Ian's comments made me inquisitive about the multichannel experience with something that I had known on vinyl 45s and LPs in the 60s, known again on CD reissues in the 80s and 90s, heard remastered finally on Beatles 1 in stereo, and then remixed and remastered on Beatles LOVE in stereo.

For my money, the DVD-A experience is the best expression, and it's due to the convergence of all the advances made in music reproduction since 1963, including the fact that the JBL Performance Series is the best multichannel speaker system to take the experience into the average home and make these new, multichannel recordings absolutely wonderful, intimate, real, and breathtaking.

We're getting a bit off thread, so check here:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=142096#post142096

Back OT, though, as long as JBL is producing and supporting current systems like the Performance Series, Project Array Series, and others, I see things getting better for the brand, not worse. Times are changing, JBL and Harman seem to be revitalizing the brand, and we should think about how amazing that is.

Sure, I love the old stuff, have enough of it to know how it sounds and also how outdated some of it is, but the reality is there's nothing from the past that I want more than the present products and drivers, including a strong desire for all the new TOTL stuff I cannot yet afford.

colorbars
03-31-2008, 05:15 PM
I am a little late posting this since it is over a year old but I will chime in anyway. i have to agree that service was a big part of the draw for JBL, let alone their quality levels.

In 1998 I finally got my pair of 4311B's. Not long after I started buying a full set drivers to replace them if they die. I just need a pair of woofers for them. I have the mids and highs tucked away in case I may need them. I rarely pop a speaker or driver so I am probably set to go beyond my lifetime. And those in my family will hopefully inherit something to enjoy or sell at a modest gain.

I just need to do this with the Summits I have now.

pocketchange
05-27-2010, 05:31 PM
does not seem to be in the cards for many of the players from the grand "dark age of audio". Too bad.

I hope some (more) previous employees of these now "almost" defunct OEM suppliers realize a living can be made using the various web auction sites as a marketing resource.

Grand Prairie, Radian, etc., need to have recognition :applaud: for keeping the fire burning in the supply line or the outlook will flicker away with the rest of us.

Bottom line be damned, fill the void, keep building and enjoying the early design efforts from the founders of audio and maintain the spirit of quality sound reproduction.

Call me an audio zealot and screw Bose, H K, outcome based education and the "current" body politic.

flame on dammit ..... !

4313B
05-27-2010, 06:47 PM
This thread is nearly seven years old. I just re-read Gordon's beginning post but didn't feel like reading anything else in it. We still can end up waiting anywhere from three to eighteen months for replacement parts or drivers. The thing is, sooner or later the parts have always shown up. I know that someday they won't. We've all been told many times that one day there just won't be any more.

I have several legacy JBL systems that I was planning on restoring but I've found that I've completely lost interest in the brand since learning at the beginning of this year that JBL is moving all of manufacturing out of the United States at the end of June.

I'm very probably going to be using Tannoy for my newest home theater system and I've been toying heavily with the idea of getting rid of every last JBL driver I own just to be rid of the whole mess once and for all. I have next to no desire to finish putting together my extremely expensive Array system. My wife thinks I should just pack it all up and see how I feel about it in a few years. She's probably right.

I view the 1400 Array and the Everest II as the end of the line. There is a new system coming out but my last glimmer of interest was killed after talking to you know who. Who knows how I'll feel in a year or two or three or four...


JBL isn't the only company moving everything they possibly can out of the United States. Quite frankly they all disgust me. I view it as Corporate Treason and them as losers because they can't seem to be able to run their businesses profitably. I really don't care who's fault it is, employees, management, stock holders, government, etc. I'll just chalk it up to them being failures and go on with my life.

Ian Mackenzie
05-27-2010, 07:21 PM
This thread is nearly seven years old. I just re-read Gordon's beginning post but didn't feel like reading anything else in it. We still can end up waiting anywhere from three to eighteen months for replacement parts or drivers. The thing is, sooner or later the parts have always shown up. I know that someday they won't. We've all been told many times that one day there just won't be any more.

I have several legacy JBL systems that I was planning on restoring but I've found that I've completely lost interest in the brand since learning at the beginning of this year that JBL is moving all of manufacturing out of the United States at the end of June.

I'm very probably going to be using Tannoy for my newest home theater system and I've been toying heavily with the idea of getting rid of every last JBL driver I own just to be rid of the whole mess once and for all. I have next to no desire to finish putting together my extremely expensive Array system. My wife thinks I should just pack it all up and see how I feel about it in a few years. She's probably right.

I view the 1400 Array and the Everest II as the end of the line. There is a new system coming out but my last glimmer of interest was killed after talking to you know who. Who knows how I'll feel in a year or two or three or four...


JBL isn't the only company moving everything they possibly can out of the United States. Quite frankly they all disgust me. I view it as Corporate Treason and them as losers because they can't seem to be able to run their businesses profitably. I really don't care who's fault it is, employees, management, stock holders, government, etc. I'll just chalk it up to them being failures and go on with my life.

I trust you posted this "rant" on the JBL Harman forum and was told no one cares anymore. (because they all got fired)

Saw the Harman video on the link Don posted recently. We should make that clip a sticky.

He was actually serious about the business he owned and its cause like a proper Yank should be :).

Well I guess its back to Beatice Foods syndrome "again".

doyall
05-28-2010, 06:00 AM
... I'm very probably going to be using Tannoy for my newest home theater system ...

Care to share which model(s) you are thinking about?

4313B
05-28-2010, 07:52 AM
The Definition Install DC12i, but the DC6i and DC8i aren't out of the running.

Saw the Harman video on the link Don posted recently. We should make that clip a sticky.

He was actually serious about the business he owned and its cause like a proper Yank should be :).

It was a good clip. I believed him.

Maron Horonzakz
05-28-2010, 10:19 AM
4313B,,,,,Tannoy has some of there speakers made in the pacific rim,,, But the Flagship Tannoy Westminster Royal are still made in England.. Even the English Quad electrostatic is now made in China..:crying:

robertbartsch
05-28-2010, 11:00 AM
The federal, state, and local governments in the United States are OUT-OF-CONTROL.

Managers of companies like Harman are only reacting to the conditions created by bad government and they are allocating capital offshore where it can provide returns to investors who are the providers of capital.

We are the next GREECE!

Should I be hording diaphragms for the 2405 since it is my favorite JBL driver?

hjames
05-28-2010, 11:02 AM
Should I be hording diaphragms for the 2405 since it is my favorite JBL driver?

Please don't start another political rant to derail a perfectly civil conversation ...
We are not Greece - that's just a rude and a ridiculous claim ...



Ignoring all of that -

...if you have drivers you really like, I would highly recommend buying spare parts ahead of time, anticipate the need!

ratitifb
05-28-2010, 02:52 PM
I would highly recommend buying spare parts ahead of time, anticipate the need!agree but what about for our future generations?

Maron Horonzakz
05-29-2010, 08:37 AM
Ratit,,,Stop reproducing.

macaroonie
05-29-2010, 11:00 AM
4313B,,,,,Tannoy has some of there speakers made in the pacific rim,,, But the Flagship Tannoy Westminster Royal are still made in England.. Even the English Quad electrostatic is now made in China..:crying:

SCOTLAND actually

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Tannoy+Ltd&sll=55.846087,-4.026598&sspn=0.037056,0.051155&ie=UTF8&hq=Tannoy+Ltd&hnear=&ll=55.844964,-4.028721&spn=0.016095,0.051155&z=14&layer=c&cbll=55.844988,-4.02875&panoid=WTe3niB7HOSDpwMJEgSKBA&cbp=11,260.55,,0,7.24

scarpi
05-29-2010, 12:50 PM
4313B you wouldn't have a nice pair of 240Ti speakers you want to sell do you?

Maron Horonzakz
05-29-2010, 01:16 PM
Macaroonie,,,,I worked for a Scott...Built the best fighter plane in the world,,,McDonnell Phantom II..

macaroonie
05-29-2010, 01:44 PM
That in fact is my surname. :)

BMWCCA
05-30-2010, 09:57 PM
Macaroonie,,,,I worked for a Scott...Built the best fighter plane in the world,,,McDonnell Phantom II..

Which one did you work for, James or Sanford? Both? I went to school with Sanford's son.

Maron Horonzakz
05-31-2010, 09:27 AM
Yes,,,James and Sanford...Plus John McDonnell,,,Under his watch the company sold to Boeing....But that is another terrible story.

robertbartsch
06-01-2010, 03:03 PM
...just read that Congress women Jane Harman is the second wealthiest person in Congress following John Kerry who is married to Teressa Heinz - the pickel heiress.

Anyway, my re-coner says there are a lot of OEM parts that are still being made and that "nothing" is in short supply. Really?

FE3T
08-08-2015, 01:12 PM
my re-coner says there are a lot of OEM parts that are still being made and that "nothing" is in short supply. Really?

http://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-2245h-recone-kit-c8r2245h/

Speakerex claims they are out, and cant get more.
Luckyli, i got a pair from a local JBL service center.

1audiohack
08-08-2015, 03:46 PM
It is getting kind of weird as part numbers come and go. For instance there were no 2220 kits for anwhile and when you ran the number it would bounce back like the number no longer existed but in a random check several months ago, all 2220 kits were in stock, 8, 16, and 32 Ohm kits and I bought enough 16's to rebuild all baskets I had.

None of the E kits have show as good numbers for a while and suddenly, there is one C8RE145 kit.

I was very surprised a couple of weeks ago to see the C8R2245 kit not come up. I bet it will be back but I don't know that.

You just have to keep on checking, or have your favorite re-coner keep checking. You just never know.
Last time I looked there were 30 plus C8R2243 kits in stock. That number has always bounced back on me.

I am keeping the faith. :)

Barry.

NickH
08-08-2015, 04:14 PM
I know its off topic but what are the spec for a 2243? I can't find any cut sheets on it.

But reading through this thread can be a bit depressing. Times are a changing and not for the better.


Nick

Lee in Montreal
08-09-2015, 07:23 AM
I know its off topic but what are the spec for a 2243? I can't find any cut sheets on it.

But reading through this thread can be a bit depressing. Times are a changing and not for the better.


Nick

Here you go. From this 2004 discussion.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?3528-jbl-2243&highlight=2243

Basket is 2242.

"Fs = 30 Hz
Qms = 5
Vas = 338.1 liters
Cms = 0.155 mm/N
Mms = 0.182 kg
Rms = 6.854 mohms
Xmax = 5 mm
Xmech = 10 mm
P-Dia = 397.4 mm
Sd = 0.124 sq.m
P-Vd = 620.1 cu.cm
Qes = 0.2
Re = 5.2 ohms
Le = 1.4 mH
Z = 6.24 ohms
BL = 30.2 N/A
Pe = 700 watts
Qts = 0.19
no = 4.401 %
1-W SPL = 98.58 dB
2.83-V SPL = 100.5 dB"

Horn Fanatic
08-09-2015, 05:42 PM
Here you go. From this 2004 discussion.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?3528-jbl-2243&highlight=2243

Basket is 2242.

"Fs = 30 Hz
Qms = 5
Vas = 338.1 liters
Cms = 0.155 mm/N
Mms = 0.182 kg
Rms = 6.854 mohms
Xmax = 5 mm
Xmech = 10 mm
P-Dia = 397.4 mm
Sd = 0.124 sq.m
P-Vd = 620.1 cu.cm
Qes = 0.2
Re = 5.2 ohms
Le = 1.4 mH
Z = 6.24 ohms
BL = 30.2 N/A
Pe = 700 watts
Qts = 0.19
no = 4.401 %
1-W SPL = 98.58 dB
2.83-V SPL = 100.5 dB"


What a hoot!

The very person who recently dodged a few simple yes or no questions, and ridiculed me for resurrecting a four year old thread, is here chatting it up on a twelve year old thread. LoL!

Lee in Montreal
08-09-2015, 06:20 PM
What a hoot!

The very person who recently dodged a few simple yes or no questions, and ridiculed me for resurrecting a four year old thread, is here chatting it up on a twelve year old thread. LoL!

Well. I am helping people get some information. Even searching in an old thread. Not being grumpy and acting like a diva. Please, now. Let us what you will bring to the conversation. Hopefully you're not trolling. Again...

1audiohack
08-09-2015, 06:28 PM
...But reading through this thread can be a bit depressing. Times are a changing and not for the better.Nick

Actually at least on the Pro side, things are much better than now than they were when this tread was started. For a while what you could get was often junk. At least what you can buy now is easilly usable. They just transitioned maufacturing sites before they were ready for primetime.

I am surprised at how long JBL has supported some of these old transducers. For that I am grateful.

Barry.

Mr. Widget
08-09-2015, 06:45 PM
I am surprised at how long JBL has supported some of these old transducers. For that I am grateful. +1

Fingers crossed they'll keep it up. :)


Widget

1audiohack
08-09-2015, 06:46 PM
What a hoot!

The very person who recently dodged a few simple yes or no questions, and ridiculed me for resurrecting a four year old thread, is here chatting it up on a twelve year old thread. LoL!

It is hard to tell what you're going to get here. Usually its answers in a helpful spirit. Sadly it is sometimes either: "Use the search engine! We have been over this a million times!" Or "What are you doing digging up an ancient thread?!?"

Sometimes I think this site has nearly run it's course. Our active contributing member numbers are dwindling and it is hard for me to understand when we don't band together in appreciation and welcome a chance for learning.

I don't know enough about back loaded horns to ask intelligent questions and hoped to learn some just by listening in on the discussion. I hope to still.

Glad to see you again Horn Fanatic.

My best to all,
Barry.

BMWCCA
08-09-2015, 07:16 PM
Sometimes I think this site has nearly run it's course. Our active contributing member numbers are dwindling and it is hard for me to understand when we don't band together in appreciation and welcome a chance for learning.

Hey, it works when it works! Active contributors keep the story alive. Everything goes in cycles. Maybe right now there's nothing new to add but, as the world turns, someone will ask questions only some here can answer. The name of the group embraces Heritage. That's what you all do, and you do it well!

Keep it up. The next generation is depending on you, they just don't know it yet.

:applaud:

1audiohack
08-09-2015, 08:26 PM
Nice. :)

Thank you.

Barry.

NickH
08-10-2015, 07:02 AM
Actually at least on the Pro side, things are much better than now than they were when this tread was started. For a while what you could get was often junk. At least what you can buy now is easilly usable. They just transitioned maufacturing sites before they were ready for primetime.

I am surprised at how long JBL has supported some of these old transducers. For that I am grateful.

Barry.


This is what I'm left scratching my head over. You scored some 2220 kits a while back. But if you need 2225's your up poop creek.

Does jbl still make the individual parts or are they OEM?


Nick

macaroonie
08-10-2015, 07:28 AM
This is what I'm left scratching my head over. You scored some 2220 kits a while back. But if you need 2225's your up poop creek.

Does jbl still make the individual parts or are they OEM?


Nick

Cones were outsourced in the past , perhaps different nowadays.

1audiohack
08-10-2015, 11:22 AM
Cones were outsourced in the past , perhaps different nowadays.

And still are. An example is the 2235, that cone is made by Hitachi, not Hawley. If Hitachi ever decides to stop making them it is very doubtful any one else will diligently try to reproduce it. It's not just JBL we have to worry about.

Hi Nick,
There are more than 10 C16R2225 kits on the shelf right now, no eights, currently. No C8R2245's :(

If you have a high affinity for obsolete drivers you had best build what you can while you can or make the leap to what is available now.

All the best,
Barry.