PDA

View Full Version : Introducing the " Vanderhorn "



JBLGUY
01-29-2005, 09:43 PM
These sound very nice with a nice tight base note.

The " Vanderhorn "


:cool: :montyp:

JBLGUY
01-29-2005, 09:45 PM
We make these for 10, 12, 15in drivers. Sometimes with co-axial or with tweeters and horns

paragon
01-30-2005, 03:16 AM
Wow, very nice speaker. Looks like an angel.
Dimensions (15"), low response ?

Eckhard

Maron Horonzakz
01-30-2005, 06:57 AM
Explain the horn concept.

Robh3606
01-30-2005, 07:41 AM
WOW nice idea. What exactly are we looking at?? Tannoy?? How big??


Rob:)

JBLGUY
01-30-2005, 08:47 PM
This is a back loaded horn with a B & C coaxial driver. There is a large composite structure behind the woofer. It is made from Sand and resin and is basically like concrete. It actually looks like a very large boob. There is two slots at the bottom of the back. The horn path is from behind the driver down the front and out the back. It then travels up the wall and exits at the top. It uses the wall as the final path of the horn. It must be in a corner to achieve the lower frequency's. It is fairly useable down to 22 hz. We are still playing with differant driver combo's. One guy who came to see some corner horns for sale saw the 10 inch model and was blown away at how they sounded. He bought the smaller Vanderhorns instead of the corner cabinets. We were surprised he wanted these instead...but each to his own.

I will get better pic's and post them

Bernard Wolf
01-31-2005, 08:40 AM
Tell me, is that sand and resin composite proprietary or can you tell me the make-up. I am in the process of trying to invent something for under my speakers to level the floor and isolate at the same time. Concrete has been an idea as well as sand,,, but this composite sounds very interesting :applaud:.

Thanks - Bernard

A Vanderkruk
04-09-2006, 07:29 AM
Thanks Jbl Guy for starting this thread. I guess it's time to add the test results for this "Angel" as paragon and my wife call it. Sorry JBLGuy for the late responce but better late than never "eh"!! Besides you know I got a little side tracked the last few years. The whole delema of rear loaded verses front loaded is revealed finally. anyway here are some tests you guys can look at. Drivers Are BMS 15c682 and B&C 15cx40

Cheers Andrew

Ps Any Urei 813 monitors kicking around , I tried a 604e bass was great but was honked at 3000.

A Vanderkruk
04-09-2006, 07:39 AM
More Tests, also for comparison is a test of the same driver in a 7 CU ft Ported box in last post.
I wish JBL still made a 15in monitor:blink:
Andrew

toddalin
04-09-2006, 12:16 PM
OK moderators, with all the guff some of us have received lately, why isn't this in some other forum, (i.e., off topic or DIY)???

BTW, the cabinets are beautiful!:applaud:

A Vanderkruk
04-10-2006, 02:07 PM
Thanks Todalin, sorry for the placement. just looking for a Urei 15" or JBL coaxial for compare, LONG LIVE JBL.
Andrew

Mr. Widget
04-10-2006, 02:41 PM
There was nothing wrong with your placement... you originally posted this before we had specific slots for Lansing and non-lansing projects etc. Todd was referring to some posts he and others have made that wandered off topic and they caught a bit of verbal grief for it. I don't think it was really that big of a deal, but sometimes things seem bigger than they are.

We're all still sorting it out.

Your deigns on this thread and others are quite interesting by the way...:)


Widget

boputnam
04-10-2006, 04:45 PM
Todd was referring to some posts he and others have made that wandered off topic and they caught a bit of verbal grief for it. I don't think it was really that big of a deal, but sometimes things seem bigger than they are.Syntax alert!

Dammit, Widget!! :bash: If you aren't more careful, Todd and others will think you think them small. That would cost you a bunch of pm's!!

We are all full-sized out here. :)

hmolwitz
04-10-2006, 05:20 PM
Take a look at the Jeff Markwart 604 crossover design if you still have the driver.
http://home.earthlink.net/~jmarkwart/
That was supposed to cure much of the ills of that driver.
I would think it would be perfect in that cabinet, do you have a drawing of the crossection you could post? That looks beautiful.
I have a Cinaudagraph full range 15 you could try, but it is very vintage, I think you are looking for something more recent and obtainable.
Harry

A Vanderkruk
04-11-2006, 09:07 PM
Thanks guys:bouncy: I would like to try some other drivers for sure. I have a file with a direct comparison to the "lengend" that I will post as this is not a "K" site, right?? I don't mean to challenge but this thing seems to be breathing on the Mighty K. I still can do some more crosover improvement to bring up the mid range but the dip at 114hz seems to change as you test farther away. I think this is the cancelation from rear to front wave fronts. the dip also changes in frequency as you test farther away 12ft vs 3 ft. but the test at 2 in above the horn {behind} shows a very smooth bass. The time line and decay is also very much faster than the K horn.
I have a pic of the 604 too. I'm shure it would be no problem to fix the crossover. Thanks for the link. K horn is red in the gragh
Andrew

Mr. Widget
04-11-2006, 11:02 PM
I still can do some more crosover improvement to bring up the mid range but the dip at 114hz seems to change as you test farther away. I think this is the cancelation from rear to front wave fronts. the dip also changes in frequency as you test farther away 12ft vs 3 ft. but the test at 2 in above the horn {behind} shows a very smooth bass. Have you read Joseph D'Appolito's book, Testing Loudspeakers? I would expect the problems are due to them being made in a room and not an anechoic chamber. The room will always influence the curve pretty significantly in the lower mids and bass frequencies. If you try to make it measure flat by tweaking the networks and adding filters you will likely start going backward sonically at some point... a flat signal at the mic when measured at one point in a normal room, doesn't necessarily correlate to an accurate reproduction.

Feel free to talk about Klipsch or whatever... I'll move this thread to the non-Lansing audio area so that the folks that get tweaked about Off and On Topic should be OK with that.


Widget

A Vanderkruk
04-12-2006, 09:45 AM
Thanks Mr Widget.
Yes the mic is only measuring one point in space, and I have swept through these ranges with a sine generator and I can't notice any dip by ear. so I wasn't too concerned. But it seems to be similar with both drivers. The thing I notice the most is the absence of subharmonic distortion, when compared to the other horns I made. The first impression when listening to these is the bass can go very low but at the same time it is very tight,and it seems like something is missing. The front loaded horns seem to have a higher 3rd harmonic that is directly related to the fundamental. And when testing the K horn it seemed to increase both in 2nd and 3rd harmonics the lower the frequency. I should prbably read more on the testing before I jam my foot too deep. and I will post more tests for you guys ,and I'm sure you all can help, This seems to be the authorative site, right?

jimd
04-15-2006, 10:13 AM
You can measure in any environment if you have a time based measurement system like a Tef system.

Normal measurement systems, RTAs, Spectrum Analyzers, etc, are bulk reading systems where everything, direct sound, reflections, etc, are measured in a lump sum. While it's better than nothing, and some reflection control can be done, it does not give you accurate results.
The time based measurements use a timed window which only lets those frequencies in you allow in that time segment. One calculates the distance between the speaker and the measuring mic, sets a frequency sweep, and runs it. Some manual time adjustment may have to be made to get optimum reading, but this will give you anechoic like results almost anywhere. Properly set up, the system measures only direct sound, all reflections, room modes, basically anything that develops after the initial sound arrival, is disregarded. This is based on the work done by the late Richard Hyser and now is also available in Personal Computer based software from a number of sources.
You mentioned the ALTEC 604 earlier, all the original 604 crossovers, are basically no-good, that's why we at Iconic make new ones. You may also look at our 704 compound too, it's a great speaker. I like the looks of your enclosure, good luck, JIM

Mr. Widget
04-15-2006, 11:01 AM
You can measure in any environment if you have a time based measurement system like a Tef system.

Some manual time adjustment may have to be made to get optimum reading, but this will give you anechoic like results almost anywhere. Properly set up, the system measures only direct sound, all reflections, room modes, basically anything that develops after the initial sound arrival, is disregarded. His CLIO system also uses MLS signals and can be used with a time window.

The part you are forgetting is that to have a window opened long enough to capture bass frequencies you end up capturing some reflected info if you don't have your speaker say 30' off the ground and nothing closer than 30' to it. Realistically in a large room you can do a quasi anechoic measurement with accuracy down to 800Hz or so... more if the speaker is further from the floor, say 5-6 feet and the ceiling is 10-12 feet high... then you may get to 500-600Hz.

Those response curves we see in Stereophile and other places blend this type of measurement with very near field measurements about 0.25" away from the cones and ports and the various curves are blended together... these are of some value, but they are not the same as an actual anechoic measurement.


Widget

A Vanderkruk
04-16-2006, 04:35 AM
Take a look at the Jeff Markwart 604 crossover design if you still have the driver.
http://home.earthlink.net/~jmarkwart/
That was supposed to cure much of the ills of that driver.
I would think it would be perfect in that cabinet, do you have a drawing of the crossection you could post? That looks beautiful.
I have a Cinaudagraph full range 15 you could try, but it is very vintage, I think you are looking for something more recent and obtainable.
Harry

Thanks for the link I found it interesting that he spreads the high pass and low pass 20,30% I found the same with the BMS, I used 12db @500hz linkwitz on the bass, and 800hz, 6db slope with 20db "L" pad resistors on the HF horn. I did notice that when I tested the bass without the cross over that it was pretty smooth much higher than I thought,so I will take soom of the "spread" out of the bass filter. We also tryed it with an active cross over and there was no problems then. I think the Altec would be really good if set up correctly. I did test the bass with a wave generator and a VTVM and the Impeadance peak was 30hz {I didn't have better test equipment at the time} Is there more info on the cinaudagragh diver? is it a soft suspension ? thanks for your help, it's the comunication that moves this hobby forward!
Andrew

A Vanderkruk
04-16-2006, 04:44 AM
His CLIO system also uses MLS signals and can be used with a time window.

The part you are forgetting is that to have a window opened long enough to capture bass frequencies you end up capturing some reflected info if you don't have your speaker say 30' off the ground and nothing closer than 30' to it. Realistically in a large room you can do a quasi anechoic measurement with accuracy down to 800Hz or so... more if the speaker is further from the floor, say 5-6 feet and the ceiling is 10-12 feet high... then you may get to 500-600Hz.

Those response curves we see in Stereophile and other places blend this type of measurement with very near field measurements about 0.25" away from the cones and ports and the various curves are blended together... these are of some value, but they are not the same as an actual anechoic measurement.


Widget


Thanks for the info, so when I set the clio up the auto delay is adjusting the time of measurment,correct?
Andrew

A Vanderkruk
04-16-2006, 04:48 AM
You can measure in any environment if you have a time based measurement system like a Tef system.

Normal measurement systems, RTAs, Spectrum Analyzers, etc, are bulk reading systems where everything, direct sound, reflections, etc, are measured in a lump sum. While it's better than nothing, and some reflection control can be done, it does not give you accurate results.
The time based measurements use a timed window which only lets those frequencies in you allow in that time segment. One calculates the distance between the speaker and the measuring mic, sets a frequency sweep, and runs it. Some manual time adjustment may have to be made to get optimum reading, but this will give you anechoic like results almost anywhere. Properly set up, the system measures only direct sound, all reflections, room modes, basically anything that develops after the initial sound arrival, is disregarded. This is based on the work done by the late Richard Hyser and now is also available in Personal Computer based software from a number of sources.
You mentioned the ALTEC 604 earlier, all the original 604 crossovers, are basically no-good, that's why we at Iconic make new ones. You may also look at our 704 compound too, it's a great speaker. I like the looks of your enclosure, good luck, JIM

Thanks Jim, I should also ask you on your Iconic line is there a "New" 416 8b available? with the same spec as the original?
Thanks Andrew

Mr. Widget
04-16-2006, 12:22 PM
Thanks for the info, so when I set the clio up the auto delay is adjusting the time of measurment,correct?
AndrewIt isn't that simple.

With all due respect... I assumed you were more experienced with your CLIO measurements. You really need to get the book and read up on the theory so that when you run into measurement "issues" you'll be able to figure out your own work arounds.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106246&postcount=16

There have also been several really good articles in Stereophile of all places discussing time windowed measurements, their limitations and how to get meaningful data from them. If you do some searching on this forum you will find many interesting links.


Widget

A Vanderkruk
04-25-2006, 03:04 PM
Thanks Widget, I ordered the book.
Andrew