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Jakob
07-07-2003, 08:56 AM
Hi!
What driver would You choose for midbass-range in a four way system (200Hz-1kHz)? I can get my hands on LE10A and 2123H, but maybe You would recomend something else?
-Jakob

Tom Loizeaux
07-07-2003, 08:58 AM
The 2123H would be hard to beat!

Tom

MJC
07-08-2003, 07:07 AM
The 112A or 112H are very good mid-bass drivers. They are 8". But they are very hard to find as they were only used in the L212 towers.

Jakob
07-08-2003, 10:32 AM
What about the 8" 2110? I´ve heard it sounds quite good.

Guido
07-08-2003, 04:06 PM
I recomend the new 2012H.
I use them in my 4343 which are original exept the midbass. I will post pictures and comments within the next weeks cause I'm not completely finished with them now.
BUT the 2012 sound great.

DavidF
07-08-2003, 09:19 PM
Jakob, please allow me to correct some terminology. Mid-bass frequencies are centered around 50-60 Hz. For 200-1000 we are definitely in the midrange. This is the primary fundamental range (perhaps a little higher to 1200 Hz or so) where transient qualities, without colorations, are so important. A driver in this range should be as light and small as possible to preserve the transient benefits. Practical considerations may require more weight (to reduce distortion) or more size (higher sound levels). Better control of the cones in the midrange band usually call for powerful magnet structures which often runs contrary to full bass response (huge magnetic motors can limit bass response and typically produce a rising frequency response curve). Therefore, a bass-mid 8-inch designed for a two-way system does not need low bass response it was designed for in a 4-way system. Instead, we would prefer a driver optimized for the mid range. For home use, an 8-inch driver may be optimal and the best compromise in sound quality, dispersion, and transient considerations. For very high sound levels, large rooms, or pro use, a 10 or 12-inch is used. SO, the best current 8-inch JBL for home use could be the 2118. Older models like the 2108H or the 112H are better yet, but difficult to find. A ten-inch would better mate well with a 15 or 18-inch bass drivers on the crossover from bass to mid around 200Hz, but should be limited on high-end crossover to around 800Hz. Still, if high SPLs are needed, the 10-inch may be the minimum size. Another interesting option (I have not tried this but seems practical on paper) is to use a three-way-plus-sub with the big-motor 10” LE111 (a-la the 4313 monitor and L110, or the LE10H in the L96) which has fine mid response but lacks a little in low bass. Cross this over at around 80Hz on the low end and 800 Hz on the high. The sub would best be inserted with an active crossover using the big 18-inch JBL.

David F

MJC
07-09-2003, 05:54 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DavidF
[B]Jakob, please allow me to correct some terminology. Mid-bass frequencies are centered around 50-60 Hz. For 200-1000 we are definitely in the midrange. This is the primary fundamental range (perhaps a little higher to 1200 Hz or so) where transient qualities,

The L212 is a 4 way, when taking the ultrabass into consideration. The 12" sub crosses over to the 3 way towers at 70htz. The 112a/h is called a mid-bass driver, operating in the range from 70htz to 800htz. The le5-9 is the midrange going from 800htz to around 3000.
So by your terminology the ultrabass is operating in the mid-bass range as well as low bass.
But when these or any speaker system are used for hometheater the receiver or pre/pro determines the crossover from the sub.

GordonW
07-09-2003, 08:19 AM
Hm, we always used a quite different definition of "bass", "midbass", etc, in our work...

"Bass", was defined as 0-100 Hz.

"Midbass" was defined as approximately 100-250 Hz.

"Midrange" was generally defined as about 250-2500 Hz.

"Treble" was everything above 2500 Hz.

Sometimes we made subdivisions; ie, sub-bass was about 0-50 Hz, bass was 50-100Hz, midbass was about 100-200 Hz, lower midrange was 200-700 Hz, upper midrange was 700-2000 Hz, lower treble was 2000-6000 Hz, and upper treble was from 6000 Hz up.

As for drivers- we usually defined them by the LOWEST frequency they would have to encounter. For example, the 2123, since it is capable of going down to about 100 Hz, would be considered a "midbass". The LE10A, since it has a usable bandwidth down to just below 50 Hz, usually, would be considered a "woofer" or "bass" driver. OTOH, the 2245, since it can easily go into the 20s, is obviously a "subwoofer", or "Sub-bass" driver... though, it is oftentimes operated as a "woofer"... ie, up to above 100 Hz...

This seemed to be the general convention, plus or minus a few Hz, at most all the audio-related businesses I've worked at over the last 20 years...

I guess it really just depends on the locale...

As far as the 2123 is concerned, in this application... either it or the 2118, are VERY hard to better, as far as realistic, tactile, visceral midbass "impact" is concerned, while maintaining excellent speed and control. For thier bandwidth, they're among the best available, IMHO and IME...


Regards,
Gordon.

Robh3606
07-09-2003, 04:49 PM
Interesting thread!

I use 2122 as my midrange driver but have 2118 and M209-8's that I am going to use in a future project. Both those 8" drivers sound really good and I agree are hard to beat. Never done a comparison to the 2122 which I think really kicks! Never had the pleasure of hands on with the 112 but I really liked the L212 when they came out. Couldn't afford them though:mad:

Someday :D

Rob:)

Alex Lancaster
07-09-2003, 05:37 PM
How about a 2202, they were used in the 4350 and 4355, precisely in that freq range, also they are efficient and can take a lot of power, depending on the model.

Alex

DavidF
07-09-2003, 10:32 PM
Sometimes we made subdivisions; ie, sub-bass was about 0-50 Hz, bass was 50-100Hz, midbass was about 100-200 Hz, lower midrange was 200-700 Hz, upper midrange was 700-2000 Hz, lower treble was 2000-6000 Hz, and upper treble was from 6000 Hz up.
__________________________________________________

Thanks, Gordon, for your perspective without the “slam”. In my perspective, I peg the bass range from 20-160Hz. In two ranges, that would be low bass (20-40Hz) and bass (40-160Hz). By octaves, that would fit into low bass (20-40), mid bass (40-80) and upper bass (80-160).

DavidF

locanti
07-13-2003, 11:21 AM
Hi all

I used a pair of D216 front loaded with a modified pair of 4333 for 2 years and I just find they're great in the range of 320Hz to 1200Hz.I tried so many midrange drivers the past 8 years such as AUDAX(POLYDAX in US) PR170MO,BEYMA 5M30 OR 8M60, full range drivers such as FOSTEX(208 serie) or SUPRAVOX(215rtf for those who know what I'm talking about) and many others.I even tried a pair of LE10A (No punch) and 125A(Too boomy)that I can say that a 8 inch driver with the lighter cone as possible is the best solution for home use if you want clarity and punch in the midrange bandwith.Hope this can help.

Jakob
07-16-2003, 02:12 PM
Thank You all for your input!
It is astonishing how much helpful information this forums members can get You!

I never got any feedback regarding the 2110H. Please let me know if this is a driver to spend money on!

Thanks!

-Jakob

boputnam
07-16-2003, 02:25 PM
even tried a pair of LE10A (No punch)

That surprises me, a bit. :confused: I've had wonderful results with those. Made some L26's a whole new, more aggressive animal...

Have you tried the LE10H, too? It really surprises, in the proper cabinet. Whoowa... :D

Don't know the 2110H, sorry...

4313B
07-16-2003, 02:42 PM
"I never got any feedback regarding the 2110H. Please let me know if this is a driver to spend money on!"

The 2110/2110H is the Pro version of the D208/D208H

These drivers are no longer serviceable from JBL.

"I even tried a pair of LE10A (No punch)"

:bs:

Tom Loizeaux
07-16-2003, 07:31 PM
I believe the JBL 2118 is the current 8" driver and it gets high marks from many users.
A popular 3-way system uses a 2235H, 2118H and 2404H, with the 2118H handling the mids.

Tom

locanti
07-18-2003, 09:28 AM
Just want to say that the JBL LE10A didn't work as for midrange driver.It work fine in enclosure as bass-midrange up to 2000Hz with a smooth tweeter such as LE 20 but sound poor with 2420 midrange ,2405 tweeter and 136a bass.In the bandwith of 300-1200hz ,the LE10A can't be compared to a D208 or D216.These 2 full range drivers are just clearer and have more "Dynamic"(Don't know the english world for velocity vs time)than any others that I tried.

But the LE10 is a good driver for small enclosure and I use a pair with PR10 and LE20 in 2.5 Cubic feet enclosure for my bed room at low level late at night.

4313B
07-18-2003, 09:47 AM
:)

boputnam
07-18-2003, 02:22 PM
LE10 is a good driver for small enclosure and I use a pair with PR10 and LE20 in 2.5 Cubic feet enclosure for my bed room at low level late at night. Ahhh... Nearly the legendary Lancer 77. Nice!

Earl K
07-18-2003, 06:27 PM
Hi Jakob

I'm quite late to this midrange chat party,,,( I've been away & I need a RipVanWinkle smilie here ) but,,, what other components are you intending to use in your 4-way system ? From all the enthusiastic testamonials for the 4343/4/5 type systems abounding on this forum - you should be able to find a common denominator from the published mid-range specs . This suggests the 2122h family to me ( if you can find a pair ) .

I have 2012, 2123 & le10a/h/h-1, ten inchers and would/do use them in different applications,,, all with different system voicings.

For instance ; I just love the overall balance of sonic attributes from the le10. It is low efficiency but its aquaplas damped cone with its' high compliance surround and long coil does generate a nice balance of well damped mid that does punch - when there are many ( 300 ) SS watts directly driving it. It may lack "snap" - in my lexicon of terms. I could understand the comment of the le10 sounding too subdued/slow once mid content has been filtered into it through 18 gauge ( high DCR ) inductors. I've done that and thought it a bit "tame". I nixxed the lowpass coil and all was happy again. I like this transducer best when utilized with other well damped " maybe - aquaplased" components (ie; le14 and a 2450sl diaphragmed compression driver or my favourite - the well damped, Altec 288-8K ) . I prefer this combo in smaller rooms .

The 2123 does have more "snap" than the le10 ( but I feel the le10 "out-punches" the 2123, in my own vernacular ) The 2123 needs to be mated ( or voiced ) with components that compliment this attribute. The 2012 is even a bit further down that speed road, IME. It has a published response curve that suggests a little more than a simple "plug & play" component for the DIY designer . Both of these tens are nice midrange devices . I make a small 2-way enclosure that uses the 2123h with a 2426h on a small CD style horn (RCF) that can be extremely HiFi ( with bass below it ) when all is properly tweaked. The 2012 has better midbass ( in the 150 to 300 hz area ) than the 2123 IME with its' more massive magnet and deep-gapped, long voice-coil .

The 2122h ( which I've never heard ) ought to exhibit, yet another balance/trade-off of resolution/speed/snap/punch,,, this observation is just based on its published specs. JBL has classified it as "obsolete" and made it hard to get . One ( maybe overlooked ) advantage is it has similar efficiency to that ever popular DIY, 2235 woofer. This helps simplify the passive crossover design process if that's the route you're taking.

regards <> Earl K :)

Jakob
07-20-2003, 04:36 PM
It never ends, does it?
I mean the constant flow of interesting aspects and information You get here on this forum?! Thank U!

Earl K: The rest of my system will consist of: 2405, 2416, midbass (midrange to You DavidF ;) ) and for the lower end my K25 basshorns. If the basshorns does'nt perform as I want them to with their new drivers, I'll replace them with something like two 2235's /side or maybe... ...well give me a tip!!!

For the mid, and for now, I can choose between: 2110H, 2118H, 2123H and the LE10A. Still haven't decided yet...


Regards

-Jakob

short_circutz
12-03-2007, 08:32 AM
Hi Jakob

I'm quite late to this midrange chat party

I got you beat...i was searching for freq response graphs for an E140 and came across this.

We built 4 small stage monitors using 2118's, mainly used for smaller gigs. Anyone who has used them has loved them. They have an MG tweeter to reproduce top end. These cabinets typically are used as monitors without any eq on them at all. Definately worth looking at for mid reproduction (you probably found something already though, after all, you've had almost 5 years! :thmbsup:)

Earl K
12-03-2007, 10:04 AM
I got you beat...i was searching for freq response graphs for an E140 and came across this.

Well there ya go bragging . I guess I'd brag too if I lived where you are, it's beautiful country you have up there .



We built 4 small stage monitors using 2118's, mainly used for smaller gigs. Anyone who has used them has loved them. They have an MG tweeter to reproduce top end.

- That's not surprising, Clair Bros ( and Audio Analysts ) used to have small front fills based on this very speaker . The 2118 really is a nice performer in the midrange . It's no real wonder that a slightly modified variant was used in the 250ti series of HiFi enclosures ( "slightly modified" meaning / the addition of aquaplas to the cone ) .
- The 2407 or 2408 should work quite well in your micro monitor if you want to keep it all JBL ( and if you like or need, the smooth sound of a mylar type diaphragm ) .

-BTW, the 2119 appears to be a modernized version ( meaning, in JBL Pro parlance , higher power handling which is quite likely due to a slightly thicker top-plate and a slightly wider gap when compared to than the original ) .
- I don't know this to be fact ( since I don't have any examples here and / no-one on the forum has bothered to research info about the newer version ) . It ( my conjecture ) just makes historical sense .

:)