What Happened?!

[Mr. Widget]

This is waaay :offtopic:

I stumbled across this image recently and it got me thinking. What has happened to our expectations and dreams. In 1971 American Airlines was offering this type of luxury (sure it is dated and probably dangerous with those heavy nut bowls flying around the cabin:)) but in an attempt to increase their passenger numbers they removed seats and added luxury. In 1968 in Stanley Kubrick's film 2001: A Space Odyssey Pan Am was offering similar luxury on their flights into space. As we know Pan Am never made it to 2001, much less space. In the 60's and early 70's there was an optimism that we could accomplish anything. Work hard and put the best minds to it and anything was possible. JBL was building speakers with beautifully hand crafted cabinets and exquisitely machined and finished drivers buried in them that no one would ever see but their pride of craft made them do it instead of shaving pennies to maximize profits with unfinished frames and magnets.

In the 80's with the deregulation of the airline industry and the financial gymnastics of the "Me Generation" we see American Airlines inventing a new way to attract passengers with the AAdvantage Program. This was the first frequent flyer program and it allowed passengers to "get something for nothing". Also during the 80's Sam Walton's Five and Dime store burst out of Arkansas and the South with it's SuperCenters and Sam's Clubs. The American Marketplace loudly proclaiming we want more for less. Now they weren't asking for more quality, they just wanted more. Today we expect to pay ridiculously little for things. We expect to fly to London for $200 and we expect to buy a complete Hi-Fi for $500. Today the successful airlines are those like Southwest who are flying Greyhound Busses in the sky. They have less room, less non-stops, less food, less service.

Recently a friend was out of town on business he asked one of the guys he was working with where was a good place to get breakfast in that town. He was told to go to Shoneys. He asked, "Is the food really good?" The answer was, "Well no, but it is all you can eat!"

I guess that pretty much sums it up... this _ _ _ _ is almost as good, but it's cheap!

[Mr. Widget]

BTW: That Luxury lounge above... it was in coach!

[boputnam]

...What has happened to our expectations and dreams. Richard Branson is our friend...

Dood, this is why I long-ago lost my super-dooper status in United. I fly across the small water at-least once a year, and during the mid-1990's I flew at-least once a month either there, or South America. When Virgin arrived in the US, there were (and still are...) no other choices of merit. These days, I take the o/n SFO -> Heathrow, then grab a day-room and the onward o/n to Johannesburg. It is the ONLY way to fly.

Branson took the dreams (and promises) of other carriers, stripped-out the corporate overhead and offers that service for competitive fares, nearly worldwide.

Take a trip...

(the first three are on-board; the last is a lame-o shot of a lounge. The lounge in Johannesburg is phenomenal - screaming hot vids (in stereo) on the wall in the showers. Great way to start a 28-hr journey... :bouncy: )

[Mr. Widget]

OK, but Bo did you read the text? That pic is in economy class! First class has tables for four in their restaurant!!!

Besides I think the issue is much larger than a wide body jet.

Widget

[boputnam]

OK, but Bo did you read the text? That pic is in economy class! First class has tables for four in their restaurant!!! Yea, I did. But the point is they could have. Branson offers wonderfully upscaled service in all classes.

Remember the TWA flights using the Constellation equipment? Or the B-377 Stratocruiser? Those comforts were out there, for a while.

Excess capacity wiped out margins. The business WAS good, and attracted too many competitors - barriers to entry were not high enough. Everyone suffered, particularly as they consumed other's routes and diverse equipment. Terrible business model... :biting:

[Zilch]

Looks like they DREW the bridge in there. :applaud:

[It's never looked like that....]

[Donald]

And now we have the Airbus A380.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4174729.stm

[yggdrasil]

Yeah the society has been moving towards measuring quality in quantity terms for a long time.

Look at your kids - I want this - I want that. The minute they have it there is another thing wanted, one week later it is likely to be forgotten. Things/Objects seldom make a lasting impression. People, interactions and feelings make a lasting impression.

Questions you might ask yourself are: Is this what I really want? How does this impact me and my closest family?

2 years ago I changed job. No more long hours. No more chasing status. Half income. More time with my family. In these two years I have made more permanent memories than the 10 years before that. Today my kids remember what we do together...

I believe this problem is due to one of the flaws with capitalism. Profit maximation requires high volumes. In order to make a sellable product you will have to quantify. We are formed by the advertising we get from tv et.c.

I could change my main pair speakers with 20+ pairs of other speakers at the same cost. But I won't. Would you?

[Donald]

Looks like Airbus did not learn from the 747 history. Pics of new A380.

[Wardsweb]

--turn on soap box--<turn on="" soap="" box="">

It's a general collapse of the family as we know it. What started out as giving our kids some freedom turned into less expectations, that now prevail in almost all aspects of life for us and them. The standards bar has been set way to low. A lack of taking responsibility and owning up to the consequences of our actions. So, if you don't expect quality, you won't get it. If you are not held responsible for shoddy work, why spend the extra time and effort to produce it? Less respect for parents, figures of authority and even less respect for themselves.

Instill values and worth in your children, hold them responsible for their actions, expect excellence and they will grow up a better person.

--turn off soap box--
</turn>

[Don McRitchie]

Looks like Airbus did not learn from the 747 history. Pics of new A380.

I like this last paragraph from the BBC article you cited. I have no doubt that the latter alternative is the one that will prevail. Moooooooo....

There are real concerns that rather than being a giant luxury transporter that brings greater comforts to customers, the A380 might be used as a 'cattle-class' transporter for the masses by airlines struggling to recoup their costs.

[Mr. Widget]

This is a soap box thread! :applaud:

Thank you Wardsweb. I wasn't talking about airplanes.

"The standards bar has been set way to low. A lack of taking responsibility and owning up to the consequences of our actions."

"Less respect for parents, figures of authority and even less respect for themselves."

I agree completely. Unfortunately we must lead by example, both our leaders and ourselves. We have to earn the respect of our children. Children aren't stupid. They see adults saying one thing and doing another. They see us lie, cheat, act racist... They become us. I think the decomposition of the family and respect for authority has come from a lack of role models at home and in positions of power. I heard an FDR speech from 1939 on the radio the other day. The President was apologizing to the American people for his personal short comings and some mistake he had made, (I was so amazed by the contrast between that speech and what we hear today I forgot what the screw up was. I believe it was an economic issue dealing with the depression.) He was accepting responsibility for his actions. This isn't a Democrat vs. Republican deal. Both sides are equally to blame. There is no need to finger point here there are far too many targets.

Family values has become a political bumper sticker and little else. I agree that if we instill a feeling of worth in the individual and respect for all people including authority figures we will be better off. Our societal lowering of expectations is exemplified by, "Don't steal, you may get caught and go to jail." WRONG!!! It used to be don't steal, because all of society will loose respect for you. Did Ken Lay and most of American business learn this? Apparently not.


I would summit we don't need "Family Values". We need higher values.

To bring this back around to Lansing Heritage, our lowering of expectations (and values) is a very good example of why JBL's best product is sold primarily in Japan and in Europe.

"Why won't JBL sell this stuff to us?" ...Because we won't buy it! We don't appreciate the value of quality and integrity.

[Don McRitchie]

Sorry about being off topic in an off topic thread.

While I agree with most of what has been written above, I can't say that I see anything that will reverse this trend. I tend to agree with Widget that there is a values deficit in general and family values is not much more than a political rallying call. I'm not sure if the following is a symptom or a cause, but I see an ever increasing role of the marketplace in defining values. For some libertarians, this may be the desired goal. However, I see nothing but trouble when the market becomes the arbiter of societal values.

As evidence, think back on the saying "It doesn't matter who wins or loses, it's how you play the game." I can't think of a time when this sentiment had any less relevance than it does today. It is all about winning and losing. The market rewards questionable and even outright illegal behavior, as long as it results in your winning financially. Think of some of the current sports heroes as examples. Or think of Enron, Worldcom or Tyco if you want corporate examples. These firms were handsomely rewarded by the market for deceitful behavior. Any decision that results in short term profits is stunningly encouraged by the market. Therefore, Walmart and the cost cutting airlines will be rewarded for their improved bottom lines no matter what the societal effects are. Those effects just don't enter the picture.


This trickles down into our personal lives. More and more we are defined by our perceived financial success. Hence the drive for the bigger car, the bigger house etc. The entire nation has taken on unprecedented levels of personal debt to pursue this illusion. Americans are working longer hours, with more family members working outside of the home than any time in recent history. Is it any wonder that “family values” have a hard time surviving in this environment?

Don't get me wrong, my point is not any kind of tirade against capitalism. I'm a strong believer in market based economies. However, I do believe that society is defined by more than just its market economy. My fear is that popular culture and the media are imposing the latter definition more and more each day to society’s detriment.


Don<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p

[boputnam]

Sorry about being off topic in an off topic thread.<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p Me too. :(


...American Airlines was offering this type of luxury... Pan Am was offering similar luxury on their flights into space. ... In the 80's with the deregulation of the airline industry and the financial gymnastics of the "Me Generation" we see American Airlines inventing a new way to attract passengers with the AAdvantage Program. ...Today the successful airlines are those like Southwest who are flying Greyhound Busses in the sky. They have less room, less non-stops, less food, less service.
Since this is a hifi Forum, I ignored the stuff that was close to on-topic, and focussed on the anecdotal. Oh well...

IMO, kids today are no different then we were, then. We all want more of whatever tastes, sounds, looks, and feels great. The evolution is that awareness of what is "out there" comes so much earlier than in the past. That makes it harder to give guidance and encourage hardwork for true "needs" rather than "want, want want".

Threads like this get complicated. Widget - why aren't you BUILDING something!! :rotfl:

[jblnut]

It's amazing to me that based solely on our common adoration of Lansing products, we all come to the table with remarkably similar views. I couldn't agree more with what's been said here so far. My wife and I talk about this sort of thing all the time, as do many of my friends. It's unfortunate that we all appear to be in the minority - and a dying breed to boot. All of the astounding events in the US of the last decade that you'd think would be huge societal wake-up calls (like Columbine, Enron and 9/11) have somehow faded into the footnotes of history instead of becoming rallying cries for reform.

I guess all each of us can do is to make the right choices in our own lives and hope that these small contributions will add up. It's the "think globally, act locally" mentality and I'm afraid it's rare. Only by making rational choices as parents, consumers and people can we hope to make things better on a global scale.

I consider myself lucky to have stumbled into this site and found not only a wealth of info about JBL products, but a tremendous community of people who care about a lot more than speakers.

jblnut

[Robh3606]

Hey Bo

That makes it harder to give guidance and encourage hardwork for true "needs" rather than "want, want want".

When I was a kid I could cut lawns, deliver papers, shovel snow, do odd jobs ect. I did it all to earn the cash so I could get what I wanted. This day and age on Long Island you can't deliver papers or cut lawns, the adults have those jobs and if you shovel you run the risk of getting robbed. It is so hard for a kid 12-13 years old to find a job when it really matters. When you first WANT to work. When you start young you learn to listen to people and get a real look at what it takes to make a buck. I know plenty of people who feel the same way and desperately look for something, a job, camp, anything to teach their kids outside the house what it's like in the real world. The only way you learn a work ethic is by working.


Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

"Look at your kids - I want this - I want that. The minute they have it there is another thing wanted, one week later it is likely to be forgotten. Things/Objects seldom make a lasting impression. People, interactions and feelings make a lasting impression." -Quote from Johnny Haugen Sørgård

"IMO, kids today are no different then we were, then. We all want more of whatever tastes, sounds, looks, and feels great. The evolution is that awareness of what is "out there" comes so much earlier than in the past. That makes it harder to give guidance and encourage hardwork for true "needs" rather than "want, want want"." -Quote from Bo


I certainly was no different as a kid. I remember once when I was about ten, a family friend had taken me to a theme park where I saw a sword that "I had to have." The friend asked if it was so important that I would spend, "my own money on it". Being a ten year old and having no concept of money I certainly was convinced that I would. She bought the cheap plastic toy for me and I triumphantly went home with the prize. A month or two later when the toy was relegated to the back of the pile I remembered our conversation and realized my folly. It was a hell of a lesson.

Children can be taught. Give them credit, they are not our adversaries, they are little us... and with luck they can grow up to be better than us.

Widget

[boputnam]

The market rewards questionable and even outright illegal behavior, as long as it results in your winning financially. Think of some of the current sports heroes as examples. Or think of Enron, Worldcom or Tyco if you want corporate examples. These firms were handsomely rewarded by the market for deceitful behavior. Any decision that results in short term profits is stunningly encouraged by the market. <O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p Re-opening an idle thread is fraught with danger...

Anyway, this is not entirely true - or really even partially true. The "market" rewards with share valuations which are a multiple of present day earnings potential with imputed growth rates. If the investor collective sees higher future earnings it will discount that into current share prices taking valuations higher - the converse is equally true.

In the cases you mentioned - and all like them - fact was obscured from (ready) analysis. What I mean is, the financial trickery was sufficiently complex (and lamely endorsed by the BoD) that it could not be deciphered until the web of decit began to fray, enabling a peak into the (true) financial underpinnings (i.e., the emporer had no clothes). Even with SEC filings requirements, financial instruments and their offsetting obligations can be so complex that even the senior management (and certainly most BoD's) cannot accurately assess their risk.

These firms were handsomely rewarded by the market for deceitful behavior. - Not true. The lofty valuations were only afforded so long as the fraud was sustained. Once the true worth of the enterprise was seen - including all the offsetting (and offside...) financial positions - the market quickly discounted the true valuation taking the share prices down hard. The market collective is decidedly unemotional about such things. Individual investors, however, can be quite emotional.

[paragon]

Superconny at Bo`s pic (TWA) ??:thmbsup:
Saw her on a "flying day"(?) on a dutch iland called Texel years ago.
Yes, there also where Spitfire, Hurricane, Mustang, Mitchell, Harrier, F 16,
......

Eckhard

[Mr. Widget]

Damn it Paragon... go start an airplane thread...:D


Bo, I think in theory your points about the "Market" as in the "Big Board" are correct. However in reality I am not so sure. There is a great lack of forward thinking and ethics. The "Market" rewards short term profits (greater productivity due to down sizing) and punishes long term strategy (investing in infrastructure or building up a work force). Taken over a long view after the company has sky rocketed in "value" and then crashed into Chapter 11, I suppose you are correct, the "Market" gets corrected, but that is no way to run an economy.


Widget

[Don McRitchie]

Re-opening an idle thread is fraught with danger...

Yes it is and I would suggest that we take this to PM's if there is a need to continue. I obviously could have been clearer. My point is that values, in this case corporate values, are being defined by the market. While the individual shareholder did not benefit from this deceipt (in fact they took the brunt of the loss), the management that perpetrated it did and saw nothing wrong. These false valuations were used as the basis for their compensation. The auditors were complicit in many of the unethical transactions and saw nothing wrong. The boards of directors, who had a duty for fiscal oversignt, saw nothing wrong. The point is that all of their values were driven by the market. I could go on and on about crony capitalism that is grossly distorting and poisoning the marketplace, but it would likely degenerate into a divisive discussion that is probably best not held here.

Don

[boputnam]

...the individual shareholder ... took the brunt of the loss I would posit they took all the losses. Thanks for the clarification.

In frauds of history management did "front-run" trades and trades with insider (and non-public) formation, liquidating their share positions before bad news was released publically. Conversely, they had "oaded the boat" before good news was announced positioning them for huge profits as the market discounted the "news". That trading is more scrutinized (read: regulated) as a harbinger of insider knowledge.

The more recent frauds were as you say - but in these, management largely took the cash (Kozlowski of Tyco, etc.) as absurd bonuses and perquisites. In the case of Skilling and Lay, in addition to huge remuneration, they did both sell enourmous holdings well in-advance of the cliff of ruin, and it is my opinion this will be proven to have been done on non-public information and they help secure the knot by which they will hang.

Now, about the A380. Airbus is mounting a PR assault, to "re-introduce" the beast, and raise investor interest. They are needing "buyer pull-through" to stimulate orders. So, we will be deludged until the orders start, again...

[Alex Lancaster]

How true is it that the countries involved in AeroSpatiale subsidize it heavily?, I feel dumb, but I still like fair trade.

[Hofmannhp]

How true is it that the countries involved in AeroSpatiale subsidize it heavily?, I feel dumb, but I still like fair trade.

Hi Alex,


yes,this is a fact,....yesterday I discussed this with a friend which is very well informed about this......

6 years ago the US economic prosecuters wanted to go against this by a bunch of high graded attorneys on a international trade level......a year later they pulled back their charges......somebody found out, that they do the same with Boeing and Mc Donnel-Douglas.

HP