A bright idea for yellowed Aquaplas

[Steve Gonzales]

Hello again,
After getting such great feed back from my last thread, I decided to share my technique for restoring yellowed,tired Aquaplas. I am a Jouneyman fine finish man of about 20 years and it has REALLY come in handy while trying to figure out the right products to use in my many restoration adventures. I have asked my friends around the world about how to brighten yellowed Aquaplas. The best answer I got was "shoe polish":( . I have done multi-million dollar homes and have taken part in among other big projects, the $52,000,000.00 Tiger Woods and Lance Armstrong buildings on the Nike World Campus. I figure I have a good idea of what various materials do and can't do. Here is a couple pictures of the LE14A's before.

[Steve Gonzales]

another..

[Steve Gonzales]

I used good ol' 2" tape, being careful to press it down as I go to assure good contact

[Steve Gonzales]

I use a utility knife with break-away blades so I can keep a SHARP edge. I DO NOT cut over the lead wires!!!!, I simply follow the glue outline and use just enough pressure to cut through the tape. Keeping a new blade makes this easy to do.

[Steve Gonzales]

I then mask off the rest of the basket and shake my can of good ol' flat black paint and shoot a few LIGHT coats instead of one heavy one and also have a blow dryer at the ready to speed the drying up

[Steve Gonzales]

black it is

[Steve Gonzales]

wa-la

[Steve Gonzales]

I have my set-up ready to go. This 1-2-3 is a stain blocking primer that is waterbased and drys to a matte luster. I use a high quality PURDY 1-1/2" brush because it allows me to "trace" the edges very well. I thin the 1-2-3 down to about the viscosity of shampoo. I am careful NOT to start with a fully loaded brush at the edge, instead, I brush out the most of it on the main "field" of the cone. "Scrape off most of what is on the brush on the edge of your paint container. Too much material on the brush is asking for alot of "redo' work. Less is better. Spread the paint out, dont let it puddle, just a very thin coat at at time. See how I've got some of the paint off before I went to the edge?

[Steve Gonzales]

Thar she blows!

[Steve Gonzales]

even after the first coat the difference is Amazing! :applaud:

[Steve Gonzales]

Here is a macro shot of the dust cap glue line

[Titanium Dome]

I've used Purdy brushes for many years. Good choice. :)

Also, the snap-off blade Olfa® knife has been a long cherished companion of mine.

[yggdrasil]

Very nice work. Were there any impact on sound?

[Steve Gonzales]

Look at them now!. I want to say a word to those who might not think that this is a good idea. First, if you thin and spread this material properly, there is VERY LITTLE gain in cone mass, about NIL. Second, this primer is tough, it doesn't "chaulk" up and is semi-flexible to boot. I think that most of us care alot about how our JBL's look. So if you have some good functioning woofers that look like hell, what have you got to lose? Being CAREFUL is the key to this job. Be careful with that blade. Test it on something first to get a feel for how it cuts. As for the viscosity of the paint: add water a little at a time and test to see if it runs. It should NOT run! If it does, you're too thin. 2 or 3, VERY thin coats is better than one thick one!. My cones still have the same "texture" as they did before because of this . If your paint is too thick, you will lose the fine texture of the Aquaplas and it won't look right. Have that blow dryer ready and with alot of movement, dry the first coat . don't let it sit in one place for too long, MOVE IT AROUND!. My next step is to M.E.K the flanges and install the plastic beauty ring and I think they'll be good as new!. Thank you for letting me share this project with you all. Take er' easy, Steve Gonzales

[4313B]

Nice! :applaud:


if you thin and spread this material properly, there is VERY LITTLE gain in cone mass, about NIL.Rather easy to determine with an old cone ripped out of a reconed driver. Measure before and after with a gram scale and plug the difference into a TS parameter calculator.

[Steve Gonzales]

I appreciate the concern about cone mass increases and i know they are important, but, If done Properly, you will use so little material that it would suprize the heck out of you!!. this project is meant for those who have no other REASONABLE choice. this is the right material for the job in this case, TRUST ME, it is WAY LESS THAN A GRAM!. :D

[4313B]

Steve, I'm not arguing. All I'm saying is someone could measure the additional weight easy enough if so inclined. I'm not going to because I don't care, but some people like raw data, e.g. "the coating added 0.8 grams to the total moving mass, which is negligible in that the total moving mass was originally 142.6 grams". That's all I'm saying. :p I'm also not implying that you should go to the hassle of measuring the difference.

I will say that I might want to measure this application on something like an LE8T because that cone is so very light already that any mass increase could have a greater effect (Chances are though that I probably wouldn't care enough to bother). On an LE14 cone I really can't see it being significant at all. They look nice!

[Steve Gonzales]

Sometimes it looks like I'm taking it the wrong way ,but I really respect you Giskard and know that ,you know, what the hell you are talking about!. I would LOVE to know what the difference is. There is Absolutely NO PROBLEM with your response AT ALL!!!. :)

[Earl K]

Nice Work Steve :yes:

- I may employ this "whitening" to some of my le14a(s) sometime this year .
- If/when I do, I'll measure the Fs , "before & after" any such treatment.
- At that time, I would post the results here in this thread.

FWIW; the 2122h has only 3 grams of extra weight in its' moving mass, when compared to a 2123h . But that weight, along with its' higher compliance surround is able to lower the Fs (from 85hz for the 2123h) to @ 40hz ( 2122h ). My point is that the ratio of additional mass ( to the overall cone mass ) is also quite important .

EDIT: I see Giskard has already addressed this concern . Oh well - I'm a slow typer .

I'm quite interested in the properties of that "undercoat" sealing paint you used. I'm ( very casually ) looking for an available substitute for Aquaplas™ . I have a garbage 2220 cone around here so I think I'll paint a portion of it to see what happens to the untreated paper-pulp. Problem is; I think my "stain-blocker" is oil-based.

:cheers: <. Earl K

[Steve Gonzales]

I think the before and after would be a great benefit to the members and i look forward to your post. As for the use of this material as an Aquaplas substitute, I would have to say that it wouldn't be a good choice. Each coat that I applied to the speaker is about 1/10th of the thickness of a Kleenex tissue!. the product is called Zinnser "Bullseye 1-2-3". It's stain blocking abilities are the reason that it covers so well, not because of it's "solids" content. When I painted large commercial buildings, there was a product I used called "Elastomeric" coating. This is a special product that allows for considerable thickness to be gained in one coat. It has vulcanized components to it and might be a better choice.

[Earl K]

When I painted large commercial buildings, there was a product I used called "Elastomeric" coating. This is a special product that allows for considerable thickness to be gained in one coat. It has vulcanized components to it and might be a better choice.

Thanks for that. :)

Any idea who makes this "Elastomeric" paint ?

<. Earl K

EDIT : a google search for "elastomeric paint" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22+Elastomeric+Paint++%22&btnG=Search) suggests its a distinct "class" of paint .

[Steve Gonzales]

Yes, Sherwin Williams makes a good one and if you can find it Sonabourn. I might not be spelling that right, it is Sahn-ah-born.

[Earl K]

:cheers: :drive: :cheers:

[Steve Gonzales]

I haven't got the trim rings on yet but here are the speakers with the flanges cleaned up. I want to add that the Zinnser Bullseye 1-2-3 primer has a high organic resin content and that allows it to cure with hardness that straight latex paint does not have. With this product, you can scrape the surface very hard with your finger nail and IT WILL NOT PEEL-PERIOD! Latex paint WILL and shoe polish will chaulk off too.

[scott fitlin]

Those DO look new!

:applaud:

[Steve Gonzales]

I just wanted to shead some new light on this subject. I want to show that the fine detail of the aquaplas surface remains intact.;)

[Steve Gonzales]

better

[dblaxter]

i have noticed that steve went threw a lot of trouble to make some dingy yellow cones look like new ,well almost , but to some the minor difference in wieght and ts paramiters seemed to be in question ,me personally ,i dont think you would be able to here the difference with the human ear ,at least i dont think i could ,but as ANUL as some of us jbl nuts are it seemed to be a concern ,also the chance of peeling in the future not with what steve used but you know some one might just use some product that might not fair as well in time ,so here is another option as strange as it sound with the new high tech cleaning products ;) i beleive i found and tried one that works very nice ,now it does not do as well as painting but there is no ,(NONE) , added wieght ,and it will get it 90 to 95% PLUS as white as painting ,very carefully prepping the same way ,tapeing the dust cap ,it does not effect the surround ,but i did not get any on them, or almost ,using a clorox bleach pen ,the scrubbing side ,apply and work into cone lightly ,it going to get wet but not saturating them and wipe off with a clean white paper towel , then when it dries you will see a clean white noticable difference. i have done 2 test cones ,junks from blown speakers that were reconed ,then i did 2 sets of woofers 128h and 115 s ,i have pics of the 128h , 1 done and 1 not ,also i will do a before and after pics of the next set (same driver,to see difference in the same driver)
and steve nice job ,i just thought i would give members the info of what i have tried and had decent results with ,for those who are worried about the possible change:D

[dblaxter]

here are some pics ,hope i inserted them properly

[dblaxter]

here is the same one from above pic the first pic was blinded by the whiteness :D of the cone from flash , but here is a better pic , i got the pics above backwards the top was after the bottom was before DAAAA

[Steve Gonzales]

Good job. I must say that if you look at the first woofer I did, that it was WAY beyond bleaching,the glue was red and the dustcap(s) were faded so all one could do was use the method I developed. As for increased mass, I've got to stress that there is almost ZERO gain, a FRACTION of one gram (the LE14a has a mass of 142.6 gms). The product I use WILL NOT PEEL in time. I think that the bleach pen is a great idea!. It gives us an easy middle ground and quick fix to the problem. I have to raise one question though. I remember when I was a kid that I soaked a pair of shoelaces in bleach, not realizing the effects that it would have and when I went to get them out, they FELL APART!. I am curious to know what the long term effects of that bleach sitting in the Aquaplas is, especially since it is in a concentrated gel form. I'm not raining on your parade, I am just posing a question that might otherwise be overlooked. In any case, again, good job and thanks for sharing your new discovery!. Steve G

[dblaxter]

hi ,steve ,

i'm with you on the weight gain ,it would make no difference to me ,like i said ,i know i could not here it if it did make a difference in weight ,as far as peeling ,there is no dought in my mind ,but you know someone will try some other product .
i thought about the bleach eating up the cone also ,i did test it on a old cone and left it with too much gel and never wiped it off, it had no effect on deteriating the cone ,but on the real cones i tried not to saturate the cone ,put it on worked it in a little and wiped off all the excess and then some. when i cleaned the woofers i had, it was before you posted the paint method and for me it was a cheap quick fix and of coarse being married ,this is the best part ,my wife bought it ( she works to so she brings home some bread also)
and can you believe it we have a collision shop and work together for 9 YEARS:blink: ,i know how do we do it ,(jbl s and loud music:applaud: )the shop in one building and the office in another :D
so i say kudos to you steve nice work i just figured here was another option for us cheap ,broke ,finacailly handicapped, you get the idea.
and thats one of so many things i like about this site is that all these people with so much great information and ideas.
thanks michael

[pmakres1]

Steve,
That really looks good...and you are right-we really care how our JBL's look!

Peter ;)

[boputnam]

A very interesting thread, no doubt.

However, I will opine here that cosmetics are moot - what matters is acoustic performance. The woofers worked-on here are old-school. If their cosmetics are offending, then likely they need reconing too due to mechanical aging of the surround and spider.

As a last resort, if recone kits are not available, and the surrounds can be redone then do that, and ignore the cosmetics. Altering the cone mass to any degree is IMO unneccessary and of unquantifiable impact. Why bother?

Let your wifeys do cosmetic surgery to distance the past - put a grill cloth on these bad boys and simply boogie knowing that's as good as it gets... :dancin:

[Steve Gonzales]

If you don't like the way it looks and you can do something about it, why not?. If a cone mass is 150 grams, for instance, and you increase it by .05 grams and now it looks good, I see nothing wrong with it. The fact that quite a few people have done this with great results, is enough evidence that cosmetics DO MATTER to them. I'd bet you $1k that in a double blind test, all things being equal, except the whitening done to one set of woofers, you could NOT tell the difference. There are people that get JBL's that are in excellent "working" condition that are in need of a "face lift" and this is just one way to achieve that. If you have some ugly speakers and can live with them, more power to you, really!. I think most people can tell when their speakers are not performing right due to a bad surround or weak spider. I don't think they're reading this thread because they think that whitening the Aquaplas is going to cure that. It's all about options and I know from experience, that MINUTE mass gain is not going to matter one bit on a already high mass cone. I've done 6 LE14 A's and H's for the L220/222 restos I've completed and would not suggest this if it had ANY ill effect in REAL WORLD performance. Actually, your suggestion of grill cloth has a bigger impact on performance than the almost NIL mass gain, think about it. If you don't use high quality cloth, it will muffle the MID/HF, I know, been there , done that. If you like ugly JBL's Bo, that's still alright with me, they're still JBL's and I'll love them too ;)

[boputnam]

Actually, your suggestion of grill cloth has a bigger impact on performance than the almost NIL mass gain, think about it. If you don't use high quality cloth, it will muffle the MID/HF, I know, been there , done that. If you like ugly JBL's Bo, that's still alright with me, they're still JBL's and I'll love them too ;) My suggestion was predicated on believing that anyone on this forum would certainly use "proper" grill cloth, ideally the original.

I just like spec JBL is all. :p

[Steve Gonzales]

I hear ya Bo. I'm going to try and get some before and after readings. I think that would help. I will say that a small, say, LE8, with an already low mass cone would be something to worry about (maybe). Hey, good luck finding original grill cloth ;) .

[boputnam]

Hey, good luck finding original grill cloth ;) . :applaud:

[Earl K]

Well,,,

- As stated above ( somewhere ) I intend to use this paint method on some old le14a(s) / after they get refoamed .

- I'll measure any drop in Fs that might be caused by additional paint weight .

- A future goal ( if the weight increase is negligable from a single coat ) is to attempt to paint my le14h cones black ( & likely needing 2 coats ) . :eek:

<> :D

[boputnam]

- I'll measure any drop in Fs that might be caused by additional paint weight . Would be real interesting to know, Earl! Hell, maybe I can get my white cones looking BrightSmile, too! :D

[Steve Gonzales]

Thanks Earl, I have a good idea that the super thin film of this material would have a NIL effect and welcome the tests. As for the black. I don't think you can put enough black colorant to get it ( the 1-2-3 Bullseye) to tone down to black, but I've got a friend that used waterbased flat black sprayed through an airbrush gun and achieved a great result. An airbrush set-up is really good because it puts a superfine concentration of material so that you can keep amounts to a bare minimum. You would be suprized how far a TEASPOON of material will go in one of these guns!. Once the water has evaporated, the weight would be in the .0xx of one gram range of cured film. Steve G

[briang]

I have used steve's method on 9 units so far. I'm very pleased with the cosmetic results.

Mass: Yes, physics demands that the cone mass must change, however I am willing to assume that the mass change will fall within JBL's original production tolerances for most cones. This is to say, that not every cone produced has and identical mass and that the amount of mass added by the primer is likely to be much less than the engineer's specified allowable difference between the lightest and heaviest cone produced for a given model number.

Mass #2: We could certainly find a cone and do before treatment, and after treatment, measurements of cone mass on a calibrated mass balance. I'm willing to do the work if anyone has a "bad" cone they can spare.

[LeventVehbi]

I arrived too late. I went through the whole thread, trying to visualize everything, but alas. It seems Steve is no longer a member - but maybe somebody has pictures of this process.

Help me out anyone?

[bldozier]

Ditto

[Wagner]

You don't need any pictures

For the white cones, you get a can of this:
http://cdn.dick-blick.com/items/010/07/01007-1007-2ww-m.jpg


You carefully mask off the parts of the driver you DO NOT want white

Steve thinned the "1-2-3" and applied it with a "Purdy" (just a brand name) brush; I use an airbrush, thin the material even more than he did and spray it (and avoid what is essentially scrubbing the cone's surface with a brush)

For beat up/scratched up black baskets he was just using flat spray paint

[script56]

I'd like to see any cones that have been treated with the 1-2-3. I bought a can and it is very white compared to aquaplas. What should I use to tint and how did you protect front getting on glue or dust cap?

[4343]

I'd like to see any cones that have been treated with the 1-2-3. I bought a can and it is very white compared to aquaplas. What should I use to tint and how did you protect front getting on glue or dust cap?

Masking tape as described in the beginning of this thread.

On a related note, has anyone had any luck matching the color of the Heathkit green baskets and cones? I'd like to find a way to turn a black cone, and a silver basket, to that lovely shade of green...:p